Over Powered or Not? Endless Ammunition & Firearms.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Would you allow a Player to put the Endless Ammunition properties on a Firearm in your home games?

Personally I would allow it.

Sub-Topic: Also anyone else find it strange that they didn't include the Agile property to UE?

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

What is Endless Ammunition from? I'm going to assume from the name that it would give you endless ammunition, and by extension let you fire at will. While I'm not super familiar with gun rules, I don't think this would be a huge issue. There are already a variety of tricks to fire for all your iterative attacks. So long as it is appropriately priced and can't be acquired too early I don't see an issue. That said, it is entirely possible I am missing something important.

Anyway, I don't find it strange that Agile didn't make it into UE. James Jacobs has mentioned that the rules team is opposed to dex-to-damage abilities (or most other Stat X to Ability Y things), which is why agile (as well as Dervish Dance) appeared outside the rulebook line. Honestly, I kind of prefer it this way. If there is going to be a dex-to-damage option I would much prefer a feat to an enhancement. Having to build with a specific weapon enhancement in mind always irks me.

[Cheapy]

Ability in question:

Endless Ammunition wrote:

endLess ammUnition

PRICE
+2 BonUs
AURA moderate conjuration CL9th WEIgHT —
Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless
ammunitionweapons—firearms and other projectile weapons
cannot. Each time an endless ammunitionweapon is nocked,
a single nonmagical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created
by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load
the weapon with ammunition.
If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other
ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes
and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability
does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire
the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed
from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow
and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always
destroyed when fired.
ConsTRUCTIon REqUIREmEnTs CosT+2 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor,minor creation

I preserved the strange formatting from copying and pasting.

I suppose you would only allow the most basic of the base bullets? Would it work with scattershot ammo? What about alchemical cartridges? Flares? Metal cartridges?

Actually, in asking those questions, it's possible the reason they didn't allow it was wordcount.

Answer to the Sub-Topic: According to James, the design team thinks Dex to Damage is too powerful, so they didn't port that ability over.

[Harrison]

While I MIGHT allow it, since you have to jump through a million and one hoops just to fire every single round and a million and two more just to maybe fire more than once a round, on top of the monetary and time cost to make your ammunition.

That said, Endless Ammunition clearly states that it can only be applied to a bow or crossbow. It does not work on a firearm.

Cheapy wrote:

Answer to the Sub-Topic: According to James, the design team thinks Dex to Damage is too powerful, so they didn't port that ability over.

Wait, so is Agile no longer core or something?

[darkwarriorkarg]

There's a 3rd party product that has this feature everloaded as a +2 enhancement.

You may be thinking of Abudant Ammunition from Ultimate Combat

Abundant Ammunition wrote:

When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.

This only works on a container. So you could make a bandoleer (belt) of endless ammunition (thematically appropriate).

[Nu'Raahl]

I'd make an ammo pouch withe the abundant ammunition spell instead. Endless ammunition would allow full attacks dual weilding double barrel pistols with out the alchemist extra arm thing or weapon cord tricks. If that's what you want in your game though, put it in!

Abundant Ammunition
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 1, cleric 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a single piece of ammunition)

EFFECT
Target one container touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.

[Cheapy]

Harrison wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Answer to the Sub-Topic: According to James, the design team thinks Dex to Damage is too powerful, so they didn't port that ability over.

Wait, so is Agile no longer core or something?

It never was from the Core line...it's always been from the Golarion line, just like Dervish Dance.

Incidentally, James sees why the design team thinks that, but likes it enough that he gets it into the line he controls with a velvet fist :)

[GeneticDrift]

If you read it as there is always a bullet in the chamber, no it's super broken.(near unlimited AoO through snap shot, skipping multiple feats/class abilities, makes pistols kinda silly, free money, makes guns super accessible, running out of ammo is a big thing in movies/books/tv)

If you read it as a free bullet when you spend an action loading, then it's just a money feat, and a bad one at that.

[Conundrum]

There is already a weapon that does this called "pistol of the infinite sky", +5 pistol with reloading hands, it's in the UE for 73300 gp.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Wow... I honestly lost where I posted this thread...

Ok I guess I should has specified that would you allow this in a Homebrewed setting.

I would make it limited to basic standard bullet/pellets and Powder or, for advanced firearms, basic Metal Cartridges.
No Alchemical Cartridges or anything as such.

@GeneticDrift: This property is based around removing the need to track basic ammo.

@Conundrum: The difference between the PotIS and this is the PotIS automatically reloads as you fire. This allows you to full-attack. While you would have to reduce the action of loading the weapon to a free action in order to get the full attack using this property.

Sub-Topic: To be honest I'm glad they left out the Agile Property. I just was surprised it wasn't included.

@Mort: I actually rule in a Pathfinderized Improved Weapon Finesse feat from a 3.5 splat book.

[JiCi]

I'd allow it... to every single projectile weapon for that matter, be firearms, slings and whatnot.

Dude, an endless ammunition bow creates arrows... out of thin air... that's far more suspiscious than having an endless ammunition pistol creating a bullet and gunpowder load, both hidden inside the chamber/barrel.

My take: firearms aren't commonly used compared to bows and crossbows, and they can be outruled easily for flavor reasons. So why allow it for items that can't used at all? That's my explanation on why they didn't allow it for firearms.

Leaving out reload feats? Yeah sure... that's like saying that keen shouldn't be used because players won't take Improved Critical...

[JiCi]

On a sidenote, you might want to houserule that firearms can get that enhancement, but at +3 instead or +2, and both modern and technological firearms at +4 instead of +3.

Furthermore... there actually IS an alternative for getting unlimited ammo for firearms... but it requires Psionics Expanded from Dreamscarred Press... and its GM's approval.

There's an enhancement called "Energy", for an additional 12,000 gp (not an enhancement bonus equivalent). In short, your bow, crossbow, sling and even pistol (firearms are used for various archetypes in this book too) now shoots cold, fire or electricity projectiles at will, made of pure energy (chosen at creation), but at the cost of not being able to use/shoot regular ammunitions. For instance, you can get a +1 fire energy composite longbow that shoots fire arrows for fire damage, not piercing, but you cannot use it to fire regular physical arrows, even magical ones.

So yeah, you can have a +1 fire energy pistol that literally mimics Paizo's laser pistol, or arc pistol or zero pistol, depending on your choice. To cheese even further, you can have a +1 fire energy flaming burst Lawrence 1917 flamethrower that doesn't have a backpack-like tank on your back and that can fire multiple times per round (according to your BAB) dealing 5d6+1 points of fire damage on everything in a 60-foot long line. Don't believe me about the "multiple times" part? Check this out... from the developper himself!.

Give such a tool to your pyrokineticist... and he'll roast everything for 9d6+1 points of fire damage a shot... because I believe that Great Weapon Aflame applies to ranged weapons as well (might not though).

[Cyrad]

Expensive ammo is one of the things that "balances" firearms.

I personally created houserules that rework firearms so I can feel more confident about giving cool abilities to firearms.

[Petty Alchemy]

I never worry about ammo, much like casters never worry about components (except the expensive ones). I think you'll be fine.