Pathfinder Has No Rules For Getting Tired--What's a PFS GM To Do?


Rules Questions

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18 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Friends,

As we know, Pathfinder sometimes leaves out common sense rules, like the fact that dead characters can't take actions and the rules on getting tired and going to sleep. It seems like it is currently 100% in the expect table variation realm without official clarification.

What if, in a PFS scenario, one of the PCs uses an ability with a strict time limit and then request to have their PCs take continuous mentally-intensive action for 24 hours? Whether or not they can do so will permanently affect their PFS PC in all future adventures, and the limitation is potentially worth about 700 gold from just the time it happened last session (and it will clearly happen again for this PC). It happens that in this PC's case, the thing they wanted to do for 24 straight hours was add new spells to their spell list (which takes 1 hour per spell level).

At first, I thought there were limits for an 8-hour workday on this activity, as there are for item creation, but we determined that there are not. Deciding that it didn't make any sense to be able to stay active indefinitely without rest, I eventually ruled that performing a mentally and magically intensive activity would require Fort saves to avoid fatigue and eventual exhaustion and unconsciousness. The character managed to go for I believe 13 hours before tiring himself out under this ruling. The player says that if campaign staff rules an eight-hour limit like item creation, he's happy to remove the spells he learned beyond that limit and I of course agreed to go back and give him the last hours if the ruling is that characters truly never get tired.

Thanks!
RE

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

I agree on the forced-march like fatigue/exhaustion ruling absent campaign staff guidance.

Flagged for FAQ so this too can go in the Ultimate Campaign questions list.


TetsujinOni wrote:

I agree on the forced-march like fatigue/exhaustion ruling absent campaign staff guidance.

Flagged for FAQ so this too can go in the Ultimate Campaign questions list.

Oh dear--it looks like this one got moved to the general rules. In my home games, I'm already using 8-hour limits on spell learning and fatigue rolls for other things. Not only that, in my home games you can just go find another spellcaster and pay to add their spells to your list. I'm only interested what I should have done in PFS, as the character in question is likely to be at my table week after week, and I could end up either costing him or advantaging him tens of thousands of GP worth of scrolls over the course of many weeks (since you can only learn from scrolls normally in PFS).

TO, do you know if it will still be added to the PFS FAQ if it's flagged for FAQ but also moved to this forum? In any case, I flagged it as wrong forum now that it has been moved.

EDIT: Mike explained why it's been moved--please ignore my flag request, as I'll bow to his wisdom on this one.

Grand Lodge Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

It needs to be addressed in the PFRPG overall, not just PFS. It is why it was moved here so it could be flagged for a design team member's input.


Michael Brock wrote:
It needs to be addressed in the PFRPG overall, not just PFS. It is why it was moved here so it could be flagged for a design team member's input.

Gotcha Mike. I suppose that's a tacit (obviously unofficial) approval of my impromptu ruling, at least, since you read it and didn't correct me? And hey, you had my back on the last one with deathwatch, so I'll take 1 out of 2. Thanks

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

In AP 44, page 17 have some guidelines about sleep fatigue:

AP 43, page 17 wrote:


[...]fatigue and exhaustion (Core Rulebook 567). You might also consider
using a variant rule where characters who do not get a
full night’s sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a
PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a
DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty
on all other checks and saving throws against sleep
effects. A second night without sleep requires another
DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character
becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A
third failed save on the next night increases the penalties
to –3.

Hope that helps.

Grand Lodge Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darklord Morius wrote:

In AP 44, page 17 have some guidelines about sleep fatigue:

AP 43, page 17 wrote:


[...]fatigue and exhaustion (Core Rulebook 567). You might also consider
using a variant rule where characters who do not get a
full night’s sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a
PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a
DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty
on all other checks and saving throws against sleep
effects. A second night without sleep requires another
DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character
becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A
third failed save on the next night increases the penalties
to –3.
Hope that helps.

Thanks for pointing that out Darklord. I thought I had seen that somewhere and was checking the APG and Gamemaster Guide with no luck.


Darklord Morius wrote:

In AP 44, page 17 have some guidelines about sleep fatigue:

AP 43, page 17 wrote:


[...]fatigue and exhaustion (Core Rulebook 567). You might also consider
using a variant rule where characters who do not get a
full night’s sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a
PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a
DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty
on all other checks and saving throws against sleep
effects. A second night without sleep requires another
DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character
becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A
third failed save on the next night increases the penalties
to –3.
Hope that helps.

That's interesting and a good place to start for a PC who is not getting sleep but also not performing a particularly engaging task for a long time. However, it's also (in my opinion) a pretty bad optional rule in general, since the DC should be rising each day (lest a character with +13 or better Fortitude and a daily luck reroll be able to stay awake an expected 400 days without sleep or any sort of penalty).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well that would be very interesting indeed haha.
But most wizards don´t have that high CON i guess and the martial types with probably higher CON can´t add or scribe spells or similar stuff normally. There could be an exploitation with the master craftsman feat though, but i think that´s not relevant for PFS?


If the endurance feat bonus helps my witch has a +13 fortitude save.

Which by the way is something that could be given a thought, too.
Because RAW it doesn't apply. But I would say it should.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
What if, in a PFS scenario, one of the PCs uses an ability with a strict time limit and then request to have their PCs take continuous mentally-intensive action for 24 hours? Whether or not they can do so will permanently affect their PFS PC in all future adventures, and the limitation is potentially worth about 700 gold from just the time it happened last session (and it will clearly happen again for this PC). It happens that in this PC's case, the thing they wanted to do for 24 straight hours was add new spells to their spell list (which takes 1 hour per spell level).

Just curious -- what was the situation that required this to happen in the middle of a PFS scenario?


hogarth wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
What if, in a PFS scenario, one of the PCs uses an ability with a strict time limit and then request to have their PCs take continuous mentally-intensive action for 24 hours? Whether or not they can do so will permanently affect their PFS PC in all future adventures, and the limitation is potentially worth about 700 gold from just the time it happened last session (and it will clearly happen again for this PC). It happens that in this PC's case, the thing they wanted to do for 24 straight hours was add new spells to their spell list (which takes 1 hour per spell level).
Just curious -- what was the situation that required this to happen in the middle of a PFS scenario?

An attempt to use many many casting of blood transcription to learn the entire repertoire of the BBEG sorcerer (just after winning the scenario, of course).


FAQ'd for you since I also have this problem with a character that wants to keep watch the entire night and not suffer penalties the next day.

The Exchange

Nu'Raahl wrote:
FAQ'd for you since I also have this problem with a character that wants to keep watch the entire night and not suffer penalties the next day.

Knights of the inner sea has a lvl 1 spell for that called keep watch


Rogue Eidolon wrote:


An attempt to use many many casting of blood transcription to learn the entire repertoire of the BBEG sorcerer (just after winning the scenario, of course).

How much blood had this BBEG and how did the caster manage to get it all out and collect it?


Umbranus wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:


An attempt to use many many casting of blood transcription to learn the entire repertoire of the BBEG sorcerer (just after winning the scenario, of course).
How much blood had this BBEG and how did the caster manage to get it all out and collect it?

Medium creatures have about 10 pints, and the witch was looking for 5 of them (the spells that the BBEG knew but not the witch were higher level and took multiple hours each). As I'm not too conversant on real blood transfusions, I assumed that was in the possible range with full access to the body. Would that not be true? In any case, the higher the level goes, the fewer pints are needed for this question to still come up.


Umbranus wrote:
How much blood had this BBEG and how did the caster manage to get it all out and collect it?

I was going try and come up with a humorous reply to this, but then I started thinking:

What EXACTLY does Blood Transcription need in order to make the spell work? Does it need just the DNA in the red blood cells? What does it do with the platelets or the white blood cells or the blood plasma (that's 92% water)? Does it need that, too?

Designer

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 17 people marked this as a favorite.

If you don't get proper sleep, you're fatigued the next day. This ruling stems from:

1) The rules for sleeping in armor, Core Rulebook 150.
2) Forced march and hustle rules make you fatigued, Core Rulebook 171.
3) The fatigued condition is removed by 8 hours of complete rest, Core Rulebook 567.
4) The nightmare spell, which in addition to dealing damage and preventing spell preparation, prevents restful sleep and makes you fatigued.

There's no direct rule that says, "If you stay up all night, you're fatigued the next day," but the anecdotal evidence is sufficient to make a logical ruling.

Grand Lodge

Dang SKR, I am seeing you all over the place lately.

When do you sleep?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

If you don't get proper sleep, you're fatigued the next day. This ruling stems from:

1) The rules for sleeping in armor, Core Rulebook 150.
2) Forced march and hustle rules make you fatigued, Core Rulebook 171.
3) The fatigued condition is removed by 8 hours of complete rest, Core Rulebook 567.
4) The nightmare spell, which in addition to dealing damage and preventing spell preparation, prevents restful sleep and makes you fatigued.

There's no direct rule that says, "If you stay up all night, you're fatigued the next day," but the anecdotal evidence is sufficient to make a logical ruling.

So the AP 44 page 17 rule is being too nice, eh? I agree with you as usual, Sean. What about doing mentally exhausting tasks for a really long time? Would a witch or wizard be able to transcribe spells for 24 hours straight, as long as they were OK with being fatigued the next day?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Dang SKR, I am seeing you all over the place lately.

When do you sleep?

4 words: Wand of Lesser Restoration.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
What if, in a PFS scenario, one of the PCs uses an ability with a strict time limit and then request to have their PCs take continuous mentally-intensive action for 24 hours? Whether or not they can do so will permanently affect their PFS PC in all future adventures, and the limitation is potentially worth about 700 gold from just the time it happened last session (and it will clearly happen again for this PC). It happens that in this PC's case, the thing they wanted to do for 24 straight hours was add new spells to their spell list (which takes 1 hour per spell level).
Just curious -- what was the situation that required this to happen in the middle of a PFS scenario?
An attempt to use many many casting of blood transcription to learn the entire repertoire of the BBEG sorcerer (just after winning the scenario, of course).

Hm. That doesn't necessarily have to be continuous, does it? You could, in theory, take some small breaks in between.

Honestly, I was thinking it was something even more dubious, like concentrating on a spell with "Duration: concentration" for 24 hours!


Coffee Cup of Energy Boosting
Aura faint conjuration; CL 3rd

Slot none; Price 1,800 gp; Weight —

Once per day, this small cup magically produces a hot, tasty beverage when a command word is spoken. Whoever drinks this beverage is suddenly refreshed and filled with vigor. It eliminates any fatigue suffered by the drinker, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.


hogarth wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
What if, in a PFS scenario, one of the PCs uses an ability with a strict time limit and then request to have their PCs take continuous mentally-intensive action for 24 hours? Whether or not they can do so will permanently affect their PFS PC in all future adventures, and the limitation is potentially worth about 700 gold from just the time it happened last session (and it will clearly happen again for this PC). It happens that in this PC's case, the thing they wanted to do for 24 straight hours was add new spells to their spell list (which takes 1 hour per spell level).
Just curious -- what was the situation that required this to happen in the middle of a PFS scenario?
An attempt to use many many casting of blood transcription to learn the entire repertoire of the BBEG sorcerer (just after winning the scenario, of course).

Hm. That doesn't necessarily have to be continuous, does it? You could, in theory, take some small breaks in between.

Honestly, I was thinking it was something even more dubious, like concentrating on a spell with "Duration: concentration" for 24 hours!

It has a 24 hour timer on it from the casting of the spell to the time you call "stop". To get the full 24 spell levels worth of spells, he would need to go non-stop. This notwithstanding that maybe you can't use multiple blood transcriptions on the same corpse anyway because it is a non-instantaneous spell that targets the corpse, and multiple copies of the same spell usually don't have additional effects, but I'm not sure on that one way or the other.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Dang SKR, I am seeing you all over the place lately.

When do you sleep?

I wonder if he took an ill-timed trip to the East Coast and was lucky enough not to lose power? I was on-line a lot yesterday for just that reason (except for the trip part -- I live there).


Here's my idea, and it begins with the (common sense?) notion that even for us mundanes long work days become exhausting, affecting more than just strength and dexterity.

At the end of eight hours of mental or physical exertion, and every hour thereafter, the character must make a fortitude or will save (DM choice). The DC for the save increases with each successive hour. Failure means the character takes 2 points of non-lethal damage to each ability score. This non-lethal damage is healed at the rate of 1 point per hour of rest. Magical healing of non-lethal ability score damage removes all non-lethal ability damage.

I don't know what appropriate DCs are. Perhaps 15, plus 2 per additional save.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
It has a 24 hour timer on it from the casting of the spell to the time you call "stop". To get the full 24 spell levels worth of spells, he would need to go non-stop. This notwithstanding that maybe you can't use multiple blood transcriptions on the same corpse anyway because it is a non-instantaneous spell that targets the corpse, and multiple copies of the same spell usually don't have additional effects, but I'm not sure on that one way or the other.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the spell, but wouldn't he have 48 hours(ish) to do his scribing?

E.g. he casts B.T. three times at 1 a.m. Tuesday and learns three 4th level spells and writes those down from 1 a.m. Tuesday to 1 p.m. Tuesday (perhaps with some breaks in between). Then he can take an 8 hour nap until 9 p.m. Tuesday and can cast B.T. three more times for 3 more 4th level spells (since the body hasn't been dead for more than 24 hours) and he has until 9 p.m. Wednesday to finish writing down the spells.

Of course, your original question is still a good one if you replace 24 hours with 48 hours, so it's a moot point. :-)


hogarth wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
It has a 24 hour timer on it from the casting of the spell to the time you call "stop". To get the full 24 spell levels worth of spells, he would need to go non-stop. This notwithstanding that maybe you can't use multiple blood transcriptions on the same corpse anyway because it is a non-instantaneous spell that targets the corpse, and multiple copies of the same spell usually don't have additional effects, but I'm not sure on that one way or the other.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the spell, but wouldn't he have 48 hours(ish) to do his scribing?

E.g. he casts B.T. three times at 1 a.m. Tuesday and learns three 4th level spells and writes those down from 1 a.m. Tuesday to 1 p.m. Tuesday (perhaps with some breaks in between). Then he can take an 8 hour nap until 9 p.m. Tuesday and can cast B.T. three more times for 3 more 4th level spells (since the body hasn't been dead for more than 24 hours) and he has until 9 p.m. Wednesday to finish writing down the spells.

Of course, your original question is still a good one if you replace 24 hours with 48 hours, so it's a moot point. :-)

Since the witch in question didn't have the spell prepared, and since you can't prepare more than once in a 24 hour period, it didn't turn out that way, but you're right in general if a caster holds onto a lot of transcriptions each day.

Liberty's Edge

There isn't a problem in PFS with casting "too many" evil spells?

If it was "after the end of the adventure", he could have certainly memorized several copies of the spell, but he had to sleep 8 hours to memorize them and wait approximately 24 hours form the last time he had memorized his spells, so getting even 13 hours of work is a great result unless the fight was the last thing happening in the evening before going to sleep.


Diego Rossi wrote:
There isn't a problem in PFS with casting "too many" evil spells?

Alignment Infractions: "Characters who commit potentially evil acts (casting spells with the Evil descriptor, killing or maiming someone, etc.) while following specific orders from their faction or the Pathfinder Society, do not suffer alignment infractions. These are cases where karma applies to those making the orders, not their tools."

And if you get a GM who ignores that, just cast Protection from Evil a bunch of times between scenarios to balance it out.


Also, it has been specifically ruled that using an "evil" spell isn't an inherently evil act in PFS.

Edit: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2olzg&page=2?Guide-42-changelog#63


Harrison wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
How much blood had this BBEG and how did the caster manage to get it all out and collect it?
I was going try and come up with a humorous reply to this...

I see what you did there...


Werebat wrote:
Harrison wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
How much blood had this BBEG and how did the caster manage to get it all out and collect it?
I was going try and come up with a humorous reply to this...
I see what you did there...

ba-dum PSH

Designer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
What about doing mentally exhausting tasks for a really long time? Would a witch or wizard be able to transcribe spells for 24 hours straight, as long as they were OK with being fatigued the next day?

Interesting question, mainly because the fatigue rules don't give penalties to mental actions. I bet a lot more PCs would worry about fatigue if it gave a –2 penalty on Int, Wis, and Cha as well. But currently there is no such penalty, and we're stepping into the realm of house rules.

EXCEPT the game still has the "GM's best friend" rule, which says "If you can't find a specific rule for something and you think it should have some kind of bonus or penalty, save yourself some time and just go with +2 or –2 instead of spending game-time trying to work out exactly what the value of the bonus or penalty should be, because in most cases it'll end up pretty close to +2 or –2."

And because the "copying a spell" rules say you must make a Spellcraft check to complete the copying, applying a –2 penalty is fair and significant, but not too punishing.

So if the character pushes through the first missed rest period, feel free to apply a –2 penalty to the Spellcraft check to copy the spells. And if that time runs into the start of the next missed rest period, feel free to add another –2 penalty to that.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
What about doing mentally exhausting tasks for a really long time? Would a witch or wizard be able to transcribe spells for 24 hours straight, as long as they were OK with being fatigued the next day?

Interesting question, mainly because the fatigue rules don't give penalties to mental actions. I bet a lot more PCs would worry about fatigue if it gave a –2 penalty on Int, Wis, and Cha as well. But currently there is no such penalty, and we're stepping into the realm of house rules.

EXCEPT the game still has the "GM's best friend" rule, which says "If you can't find a specific rule for something and you think it should have some kind of bonus or penalty, save yourself some time and just go with +2 or –2 instead of spending game-time trying to work out exactly what the value of the bonus or penalty should be, because in most cases it'll end up pretty close to +2 or –2."

And because the "copying a spell" rules say you must make a Spellcraft check to complete the copying, applying a –2 penalty is fair and significant, but not too punishing.

So if the character pushes through the first missed rest period, feel free to apply a –2 penalty to the Spellcraft check to copy the spells. And if that time runs into the start of the next missed rest period, feel free to add another –2 penalty to that.

Great! Rock on, Sean.

Liberty's Edge

Makes since to me, what Sean said. Just like to add that, as an addict reader who has stayed up all night reading and still went about my day, I wouldn't have a problem with a character going all night while studying something that is really important to them.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:

Friends,

As we know, Pathfinder sometimes leaves out common sense rules, like the fact that dead characters can't take actions...

Really?

Really?

You need to be told that dead characters don't get to do anything? Really?

I think you need this, badly.


Suddenly I am very glad I have a +18 on my spellcraft check, and a once perday reroll on skill checks.

I'm really glad this go sorted out. It is a pity that witches cannot learn spells from all the spellbooks that get dropped in PFS.


Bruunwald wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:

Friends,

As we know, Pathfinder sometimes leaves out common sense rules, like the fact that dead characters can't take actions...

Really?

Really?

You need to be told that dead characters don't get to do anything? Really?

I think you need this, badly.

No. No I really don't. Remember, I'm the GM here who was curtailing things based on common sense about what would be too much. I just don't want to be the scrooge GM on this one if my interpretation was too harsh.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

And because the "copying a spell" rules say you must make a Spellcraft check to complete the copying, applying a –2 penalty is fair and significant, but not too punishing.

So if the character pushes through the first missed rest period, feel free to apply a –2 penalty to the Spellcraft check to copy the spells. And if that time runs into the start of the next missed rest period, feel free to add another –2 penalty to that.

Is this in addition to the penalties you're already taking on checks using the AP 44 rules?

Meaning a character who misses one nights sleep gets:
fatigued condition
-1 penalty to all checks
-1 penalty to saves vs sleep effects
extra -2 penalty from GM's best friend rule

And after a second night:
exhausted condition
-2 penalty to all checks
-2 penalty to saves vs sleep effects
extra -4 penalty from GM's best friend rule

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I still don't understand why the PC only had one day to grab the spells. Did I miss something?


The AP 44 rules are specifically called out as a variant rule.


Jiggy wrote:
I still don't understand why the PC only had one day to grab the spells. Did I miss something?

The spell being used to grab the spells was blood transcription, and that requires the spell caster be dead for no more than 24 hours and the spell lasts only 24 hours.


I always forget just how evil that spell is, and then someone brings it up again.


Jiggy wrote:
I still don't understand why the PC only had one day to grab the spells. Did I miss something?

My best attempt at reconstructing it:

The witch didn't have the spell prepared, so he had to wait until the next day to prepare as many Blood Transcriptions as he could. The spellcaster has to have been killed within the last 24 hours, so he could only cast as many as he could prepare, since he can't rest again before the corpse expires. Once he's cast them, he's got 24 hours to teach the familiar before he forgets them.

So kill the guy, get a good night's rest, wake up, drink a healthy breakfast, and start petting your cat.

It's a level 2 spell, so if he can cast it say 6 times, and he picks high level spells, six 4th-level spells would take 24 hours to teach.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
I always forget just how evil that spell is, and then someone brings it up again.

It's cool, Ambrus said I should do what it takes to help out the Pathfinders. I'm just doing my job, you know?

So, who wants some infernal healing? I'm fine since I death knelled those guards earlier.


It's only doing your job if you toast to Ambrus, with the blood, right before you drink the pint of blood. What a silly houserule :p

Does the spell make you able to stomach that? I can imagine a few Con checks would be necessary.


Cheapy wrote:

It's only doing your job if you toast to Ambrus, with the blood, right before you drink the pint of blood. What a silly houserule :p

Does the spell make you able to stomach that? I can imagine a few Con checks would be necessary.

It's not a bad point--5 pints is pretty close to 100% of your daily water intake (which is around 6 pints), which you would be taking completely in blood (rakshasa blood in this case).


"Quick, make a gluttony check!"

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
"Quick, make a gluttony check!"

Back in the glorious days of Thassilon, it was called 'plenty'.

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