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How to effectively use *Pit* spells


Advice

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've heard of the Grease + Wall combos, but was wondering if there were any additional pointers you guys could suggest?

Grand Lodge

Well...true striked shield bash works wonders to get critters IN the pit.


best way to use a pit spell is to drop a sheet of parchment on the ground that is 20x20. cast pit when the creature stands on the paper. once they fall in, run over and fold the paper 10 times. congratulations once the spell ends, the creature cannot break the entrance of the extradimensional space and dies.


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It's impossible to fold a piece of paper 10 times


i didnt say paper did i?


My summoner drops his pit under the bad guys, but when that won't work his eidolon tries to bullrush them in, though that's when 4 claw attacks seem futile. I am looking forward to the Awesome blow feat to simply smack enemies into pits.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jupp wrote:
i didnt say paper did i?

Parchment is EVEN worse then paper. But the number of fold limit is more a thing about the size of the paper being paper...but even with 20x20 foot paper, your not getting 10 folds. Mythbuster did 11 using a football sized paper.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Jupp wrote:
i didnt say paper did i?
Parchment is EVEN worse then paper. But the number of fold limit is more a thing about the size of the paper being paper...but even with 20x20 foot paper, your not getting 10 folds. Mythbuster did 11 using a football-field sized paper.

and a steamroller


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My wizard drops the pit on them, then uses Hydrolic push to send them back in if they escape, or drop some fireballs down into it by Flying over it and shooting straight down. I have used grease with the pits, to make creatures fall in, but its only very effective with creatures that have low saves already.

Grand Lodge

Derfmancher wrote:
My wizard drops the pit on them, then uses Hydrolic push to send them back in if they escape, or drop some fireballs down into it by Flying over it and shooting straight down. I have used grease with the pits, to make creatures fall in, but its only very effective with creatures that have low saves already.

No, the idea is to grease the pit itself. They need to make a save or fall down and they have to climb at half speed (or possibly not at all) so they stay in there longer.


Make a friend with a Bull Rusher.


Hydraulic push.

Grand Lodge

rkraus2 wrote:

Make a friend with a Bull Rusher.

Or do it yourself. Mithral light shield can be used by wizards with no penalty. Take the shield slam feat and use true stike (or quickened true strike) and your CMB to bullrush will be d20+BAB+str+shield enchantment as a weapon+20(true strike). Assuming level 10 with 7 str and a bashing shield, rolling a 10, you have a CMB of 34.


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Whenever I see the Conjure Black Pudding spell I think "that would be awesome as a follow-up to a casting of a Pit spell". Even better, drop a Cloudkill into the Pit along with the Black Pudding for the pure cruelty of it.

I was GMing a PFS scenario a few month ago, and the party's wizard, after dropping a couple of key NPC enemies into a Pit, cast Mad Monkeys down into the Pit to steal all their stuff - it was good fun. He then Shadow Conjured a Stinking Cloud into the pet just to be mean.

Finally, Aqueous Orb is *made* to synergize with Pit spells.


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Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
It's impossible to fold a piece of paper 10 times

you forgot "In Half".

you can fan fold a piece of paper bunches.


My players generally use pit spells to take a strong non-caster out of the equation for a round or too so that they can beat on the sweet squishy caster while their meatshield is trying to get out of a hole.

The ACP of medium or heavy armor, combined with the fact that casters will often reserve their fly spells for themselves rather than their meatshields makes the bodyguards the best target for pit spells. Just remamber that the spell isn't to damage them, it's to delay them for a few rounds so that he can't protect his caster.

Also, Create Pit (though not its more powerful variations) is one of the few spells I approve of for enhancing by Widen Spell metamagic. A 30/30 ft. spell area, 20/20 ft of which is pit, can catch a lot of potential targets in its radius and has 4 spaces in its center which lack an "edge". A GM might be convinced that creatures in such spaces with no solid ground adjacent to them get no save against the spell, or at the very least would find saving against it more difficult, or would have to make an acrobatics check to jump 10+ ft. to solid ground.

Grand Lodge

Gluttony wrote:


Also, Create Pit (though not its more powerful variations) is one of the few spells I approve of for enhancing by Widen Spell metamagic. A 30/30 ft. spell area, 20/20 ft of which is pit, can catch a lot of potential targets in its radius and has 4 spaces in its center which lack an "edge". A GM might be convinced that creatures in such spaces with no solid ground adjacent to them get no save against the spell, or at the very least would find saving against it more difficult, or would have to make an acrobatics check to jump 10+ ft. to solid ground.

Can't widen create pit unfortunately. Widen only works on spreads, emination or burst and create pit is none of those.


Gluttony wrote:
Also, Create Pit (though not its more powerful variations) is one of the few spells I approve of for enhancing by Widen Spell metamagic. A 30/30 ft. spell area, 20/20 ft of which is pit, can catch a lot of potential targets in its radius and has 4 spaces in its center which lack an "edge".

I'm a little confused why you're suggesting the spell area would be 30' x 30'. A 20' x 20' pit, however, is nice, but not for a level 4 spell.

Oh, right, plus the "you can't widen create pit" thing that cold napalm brought up...


The extra 10 ft. being the sloped border, upon which you have to roll reflex saves if you end your turn on it.

I thought that area counted as a spread. Hmm, I'll have to go look at AoE terminology now...

--Edit: Ah, spreads are the fog spells. My bad.


Gluttony wrote:
The extra 10 ft. being the sloped border, upon which you have to roll reflex saves if you end your turn on it.

I was afraid you thought that. Check out the spell again--you might fall in if you end your turn adjacent to the pit, not "in a 5' area around the pit" or anything like that. "Adjacent" couldn't get widened.


Dot. I too am about to start opening holes under the bad guy's feet and have been trying to think of some interesting methods for keeping climbers in the pit.

I do fancy the idea of creating pits and then summoning swarms into them - spiders for instance. The thought of pouring a horde of spiders over someone in the pit is amusing. And of course there's webbing the inside of the pit as well to slow climbers down even more.

Osirion

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Jupp wrote:
i didnt say paper did i?
Jupp wrote:
cast pit when the creature stands on the paper. once they fall in, run over and fold the paper 10 times

?


Pit...Punishing Kick...


Gluttony wrote:
Just remember that the spell isn't to damage them, it's to delay them for a few rounds so that he can't protect his caster.

Exactly!

If it takes the caster (one of 4-5 members of a party) one round to cast a pit spell, and it takes the target (Hopefully one of 2-4 enemies) at least 2 round to get out, you've made a huge impact on the fight.


Fastmover wrote:
Pit...Punishing Kick...

The target has to end in a safe space they can stand in following a Punishing Kick. As stupid and lame as it is, you can't "this is Sparta!" people.


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Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At the bottom of the pit and away from all those guys who want to kill him is arguably safer :-P

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Normally, they make their save on your turn and then have their whole turn (if they were successful) to get out of the "danger zone" adjacent to the pit. Try this instead:

Ready an action to cast create pit when an enemy becomes adjacent to your ally. That way, even if they make the save, they're down one move action while standing adjacent to the pit. Now they have to choose: do they attack your ally and have to make a second save? Or do they move to safety, giving up any chance of attacking and potentially provoking an AoO?


It's a strong battlefield shaping spell. You bet that the GM will hesitate to have enemies end on those sloping edges, so you can use it to cut off one direction of attack for the enemy (our party fights a lot on the tundra).

Ready action to create pit on the space where an enemy charge is supposed to end; that'll make it violate the "straight line with no obstacles" clause of charging.

Have a fighter with Improved Bull Rush on standby to push people back in if they climb out.


Jiggy wrote:

Normally, they make their save on your turn and then have their whole turn (if they were successful) to get out of the "danger zone" adjacent to the pit. Try this instead:

Ready an action to cast create pit when an enemy becomes adjacent to your ally. That way, even if they make the save, they're down one move action while standing adjacent to the pit. Now they have to choose: do they attack your ally and have to make a second save? Or do they move to safety, giving up any chance of attacking and potentially provoking an AoO?

Picking this idea up for later use.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My master summoner dropped a pit blocking off a group of advancing skeletons, and then next turn summoned earth elementals to go bowling. There may have been better uses of my resources, but it sure was fun.

Cheliax

I love the combo of quickened pit + stone shape => half the party falls into the pit, and the ceiling drops down on top of 'em. they're stuck like maggots in a jar, and suddenly the BBEG is on the winning side.

you'd better hope the party has darkvision, or the climb DC will be impossible; and I think it's fair to say that it's more difficult to teleport out if you don't know where *exactly* you're teleporting from, e.g. make a high DC caster level check or put yourself in a wall somewhere near the destination.
Also, when create pit ends, the floor gently rises; but isn't stone shape permanent? That should earn them at least 2d6 of crushing damage as they get pushed through the stone.

Create Pit
Stone Shape

Also, consider putting a wand of stone shape in the loot pile so the survivors on top -if any- can get their pitted friends out if they manage to defeat the bad guys.

Shadow Lodge

Cheapy wrote:
There may have been better uses of my resources, but it sure was fun.

And that's what it's all about.

Stealing this for my Summoner. She's already dropped a webbed werewolf into a pit today. The Wizard in her party had pinned him with web and he ripped himself free... only to fall straight into the pit once the strands were no longer holding him up.


I have used create pit against casters as well. I create a pit on a caster and int he next 5 rounds we smoked his buddies and readied actions for whent he pit ends.

A castor often has a low climb and definately no line of sight for his spells.


Pit is an extra-dimensional space.
Teleport specifically excludes travel between planes.

Does this mean you can't teleport out of a pit spell?


Finlanderboy wrote:
A castor often has a low climb and definately no line of sight for his spells.

I didn't even know castors HAD spells.


Castors are uniquely suited to roll with many effects, however.


Correct you can not dimesion door or teleport from a pit.

Taldor

In a recent PFS game we found Create Pit followed by Sound Burst to be a good combo. It forced all the guys that got stunned by the sound burst to have to make an extra save or fall in.

Andoran

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I once fell into a pit voluntarily to avoid being flanked and sneak attacked by a really tough gargoyle/rogue. Falling damage and squeezed melee with the troll at the bottom was far less deadly than the sneak attacks would have been.


That is clever to use the pit in that format Xuttah. I have yet to do it, but jump in it and cast an illusion over the top to hide.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Can you cast a Pit spell on a wall or ceiling? What about a rug that you pick up?


PRD says:

Quote:
You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest.

So, wall? No.

Rug? If it's big enough, sure....


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Just a note, the pit's Climb DC's are 5 or 15 less than listed so even spellcasters should be able to get out of them with enough time.

Also, you CAN Dimension Door or Teleport from a pit. It is not another plane, it is an extra-dimensional space. That is not the same thing.

Here is JJ on the matter

Finally, teleporting 'from' an area does not make it harder to teleport. There is nothing in the teleportation school of magic that states you must know your exact co-ordinates to teleport to somewhere else. Nor is there anything in Dimension Door or teleport spells that states that.

- Gauss


The dc to climb is 25. it says that right on the spell.

The pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25. When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round.


The climb DC is 25. Then you use the corners and it becomes 20. If you are large or have a 10foot reach you use the corners AND the opposing walls and it becomes 10. Like I said, all of the climb DCs for the Pit spells are 5 or 15 less than listed. This is right in the climb rules.

- Gauss

Andoran

Finlanderboy wrote:
That is clever to use the pit in that format Xuttah. I have yet to do it, but jump in it and cast an illusion over the top to hide.

Thanks. It was sort of a "do or die" situation, but I suppose you could use it for more planned strategic advantages. ;)


I enjoy readying an action to cast a pit in front of a moving melee combatant. Tends to surprise them quite a bit.

Grand Lodge

Gauss wrote:

The climb DC is 25. Then you use the corners and it becomes 20. If you are large or have a 10foot reach you use the corners AND the opposing walls and it becomes 10. Like I said, all of the climb DCs for the Pit spells are 5 or 15 less than listed. This is right in the climb rules.

- Gauss

That is assuming that the pit has nice smooth walls with nice corners. The spell says it makes coarse stone walls so there is no given that you can actually brace ANYTHING. Also your get either a +5 or +10. You get +5 for bracing the corners or +10 for opposing walls...you can NOT brace BOTH the corners and opposing walls.


Cold Napalm, that is not what the rules state.

Right below the Climb DC Modifier table states:

CRB p91 wrote:
* These modifiers are cumulative; use all that apply.

So, yes -5 DC and -10 DC are cumulative.

Second, Create Pit states a 10x10 hole. Not a 10' radius hole. Thus, it has corners and opposing walls.

Now, lets see if you need 'smooth walls with smooth corners'.

CRB p91 wrote:
-5 Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls.

Nope, nothing about smooth walls or smooth corners.

Does climb state you need smooth walls to brace?

CRB p91 wrote:
-10 Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls.

Nope, no statement about requiring smooth walls.

Any creature can brace against the corners and reduce the DC by 5. Any creature that has a 10foot reach or that is large can brace against two opposing walls and also reduce the DC by 10. The rules are pretty clear here.

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Gauss wrote:

Cold Napalm, that is not what the rules state.

Right below the Climb DC Modifier table states:

CRB p91 wrote:
* These modifiers are cumulative; use all that apply.

So, yes -5 DC and -10 DC are cumulative.

Second, Create Pit states a 10x10 hole. Not a 10' radius hole. Thus, it has corners and opposing walls.

Now, lets see if you need 'smooth walls with smooth corners'.

CRB p91 wrote:
-5 Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls.

Nope, nothing about smooth walls or smooth corners.

Does climb state you need smooth walls to brace?

CRB p91 wrote:
-10 Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls.

Nope, no statement about requiring smooth walls.

Any creature can brace against the corners and reduce the DC by 5. Any creature that has a 10foot reach or that is large can brace against two opposing walls and also reduce the DC by 10. The rules are pretty clear here.

- Gauss

Just because it's a 10x10 hole doesn't mean it has corners you can BRACE. You must BRACE to be able to get that DC reduction. Nothing in the spell description says you can brace so if the pit spell create a pit where you can brace or not is ENTIRELY UP TO THE DM AN NOT YOU. At least until we get an offical ruling. Please stop saying that you automatically get that reduction.

As for the second part, you must BRACE to get each reduction. You can't brace BOTH corners and opposite walls. It is not sufficent that there is a corner while you brace opposing walls, you have to BRACE to get each reduction and you can only brace ONE OF TWO METHODS so you only get one of the reduction.

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