Once again, my group off the beaten path.
They are getting tired of Croft giving them stuff to do, so are considering just not doing it.
The mission, Eel's End.
What are the ramifications if they don't follow through? Any ideas?
I'm pretty sure I can transition to the trinia shingles scene or the romp in the grave yard without needing Croft to do so, just wondering what happens IF this portion of the plot, the evil guy isnt thwarted?
Edit: one of the players is a member of the darklight sisterhood with a strong tie to cheliax and is trying to consider if she even cares that the city gets embargoed, she believes it might help depose the queen, and even now at this early point in the AP, it's something she believes needs to be done.
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Devargo Barvasii is nothing more than a side quest as written. In fact there is mention of him in Escape from Old Korvosa. If the party left him then he winds up...
In otherwords. if they don't want to go do it, fine, they miss the fun. No biggie.
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Sadly it sounds like your party is rebelling against the "railroad" to rebell against the railroad. This is why I worked hard to invest my Player's Characters in Korvosa. I made them have some reason to love the city they were in, even if they were not from there.
Both of my groups at one time or another realized that they were on a railroad but also realized that their characters would never willingly get off as it was laid out perfectly in line with who they were and what they wanted. It's all a matter of perspective.
Hmm yea.
It's not so much they have no connection to the city, but more that they latched on to the fact Illeosa is less liked than the Husband she survived. Cries from the crowd like "down with the usurper" get them thinking about picking up torches and joining the mob!
They ACTUALLY almost (almost mind you) let the cow hammer boys be, because they found out they were feeding the masses. and that sounded like a good thing, and since they already suspect the government of being foul and cruel, they suspected the government of trying to put them down for helping others. I had to push the fact that there maybe more than meets the eye and then made a scene where they caught two of them with dead bodies they were dragging into the back to be butchered.... so I really had to push that.
It's not so much rebel for the sake of rebelling, as much as it is how much information they have and what they are rolling with, I had to actually prevent them from leaving the city entirely, because the riots were an inconvenience!
wasnt there some kind of ramification of not stopping the ambassador? The information gotten from eel's end blocks him.... not necessarily leaving the denizens of eels end alone per se, but not thwarting said ambassador from cheliax?
They already mentioned it above: there would be a possible embargo on the city from Cheliax. One of their characters is part of the darklight sisterhood and therefore more partial toward cheliax vs korvosa.
This poses an issue as, as it was said, the party needs a love for the city of Korvosa, not a stronger affiliation elsewhere. When the crap hits the fan, they need a strong motivation to continue to help the city.
Cressidia is going to continue throughout chapter 2, 3, and 6 to help move them along the path of leveling, so if they are already tired of hearing from her, do they have another npc they like better? Is there someone else you can give them hints from? Would they prefer to just hear 'rumors of injustices' and go vigilante on their butts instead of 'orders from the guard'?
If they are this bad in chapter 1 about it, I would seriously consider re-vamping the entirety of Chapter 4 now. There are suggestions in the book and I think other paths mentioned in these boards. Start thinking early.
They already mentioned it above: there would be a possible embargo on the city from Cheliax. One of their characters is part of the darklight sisterhood and therefore more partial toward cheliax vs korvosa.
This poses an issue as, as it was said, the party needs a love for the city of Korvosa, not a stronger affiliation elsewhere. When the crap hits the fan, they need a strong motivation to continue to help the city.
Cressidia is going to continue throughout chapter 2, 3, and 6 to help move them along the path of leveling, so if they are already tired of hearing from her, do they have another npc they like better? Is there someone else you can give them hints from? Would they prefer to just hear 'rumors of injustices' and go vigilante on their butts instead of 'orders from the guard'?
If they are this bad in chapter 1 about it, I would seriously consider re-vamping the entirety of Chapter 4 now. There are suggestions in the book and I think other paths mentioned in these boards. Start thinking early.
Yes, rumors of injustice would be the way to go. Putting an ear to the street.
The darklight sister grew up in Korvosa, in the shingles. She's an oracle by "birth" but received ninja training as part of being wrapped up in the sisterhood. She's not 'sure' about her alligences, as her membership in the sisterhood is born out of being an orphaned bastard on the streets of korvosa (a half elf that was one of lamms lambs, then escaped him to live on her own in the shingles) The sisterhood took her in, and she felt 'accepted'.
The character has recently changed her alignment from neutral to neutral good, based on her feelings about what she believes the government is doing to the people of korvosa, and has decided to take a stance and make a change.
This character is also the party "leader" (in a way) the other strong personalities are the Half-orc Barbarian inquisitor, who's shoanti heritage has him convinced through dreams he was born to sit on the throne in castle korvosa as rightful heir to the shoanti guardians of the pyarmid.
and The Elf Ronin.
The Dwarf Magus is all about the Benjamin's, So keep the money coming in and he's there.
So 1) the half orc, by background automatically wants to overthrow the government and doesn't trust anyone representing it (but he IS Chaotic, so that makes sense)
2) The elf Ronin left her own government (winter council) because she distrusted their choices. Her connection to Korvosa is the weakest having only lived here a short time. As a Ronin she's not into taking orders from a new "master" just yet, let alone a human who hasn't earned her trust.
3) The Oracle (darklight sister) isn't sure she wants to thwart the ambassador from cheliax, because his actions might depose the queen faster.....
So the question is, what IF they dont thwart the ambassador, there isnt anything written Ive seen on if they fail in the part of the adventure. (or just ignore it)
Oh, and the characters automatically (like there was a default setting) didn't trust Vencarlo. The oracle noticed his fake fingers through his glove (she always has characters with high perception) and didn't buy his story about it (always has characters with good sense motive)
The characters would all make good "black jack" candidates as they are being played. They just dont want to work with and distrust the government.
As written Cressida is kinda a demanding slaver... do this, now this, now this. One of the players called her a taxi dispatcher....
So I was thinking of instead of her summoning them to her head quarters like she has been doing, she approaches them at night wearing a hooded cloak at the three rings where they are staying (incidentally owned by a member of the darklight sisterhood) and stealthily slip to them her misgivings about the whole Trinia development.
If they got the info on the down low, it would seem like a lead, not an order....
You say that the group is tired of Croft telling them what to do... Isn't Eel's end just the second job that Croft gives them? Wow.
Ultradan
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This Adventure Path is likely to go south unless the PCs have at least 1 of
1) Very strong ties to the city and a strong desire to save the city
2) An influential PC that they like and respect.
This is VERY likely to come to the front in the transition from Number 3 and Number 4 in the Adventure Path.
If the PCs don't like Kroft your best bet is almost certainly to introduce another mentor type NPC. If you have the Guide to Korvosa there a slew of possibilities. Obvious choices would include
1) Vencarlo Orsini
2) The head of some church or other
3) Some influential head of a noble family
4) Sabina (you'd have to change things a little, but actually not all that much to make her a quite sympathetic ally)
Im also trying to lead my players to Eel's End. But I have done it other way. First of all, they have friends in the city, which Ive been introducing to them. An old couple, neighbourgs of one Pc, have their house burned. They rescue them from fire, and they find out that an imp is the starter of the fire. Some other houses of the district are burned, too. Now, a lawyer (hired by the cheliax ambassador, who also hired the imps that are burning the houses) has been trying to buy houses for the last weeks in that district. The group is now investigating about the lawyer, and hopefully they'll know who pays him, and will try to stop the ambassador.
Sorry if it's not well explained, it's a bit late and I'm very tired...
The group, as it was built, because I guess of the name of the first book in the AP, are pretty much Rebels and Anarchists. "All right! Anarchy!" Hah!
So the beginning theme or working with the government is NOT working AT ALL. They do NOT want to be flunkies of the town guard (police as they put it).
To go a little further (and this is odd) The Oracle, who has the harrowed feat (because she's wanted to play an oracle since the class came out and shes always wanted to read cards) and has Zellara's Deck now, Is convinced, the reason why they were hired by a 'dead woman' in the first part of the adventure and lead to revenge on gaedren is because it was an Illusion (so she's not far off there) but that it was REALLY the QUEEN who sent them on the mission.
Hmmm now where did you come up with that.
See the big issue, is the Queen was unpopular from day one, and a lot of the looters and the mobs are spreading the rumor she killed the King (which is actually true) and the PCs are eating it up.
The "shoanti" guardian character will come in handy for most of this AP and is unwittingly very well built for most of it. The Ronin headed into Order of the Seal/Battle Herald will also be unwittingly well suited for much of the camapign.
I re wrote somethings slightly, and the bladebound magus is actually carrying the dormant serithel. and his backround is extremely well suited as well.
the Oracle just changed her alignment to neutral good (from neutral) and does care about "what is right" but is also the one convinced she has seen illusions of the queen, and that croft is sending her on busy errands distracting her from something more important.
So I was considering ignoring the Eel's End completely and go for moving this plot forward.
I was just wondering what the ramifications of leaving the ambassador unchecked were, since nothing is written, it almost assumes the PCs will automatically thwart him here.
I was just considering making the embargo of korvosa part of some of the issues later in the campaign. So once cheliax steps in to emabrgo them, then hellknights pull out and the Gray Maidens replace them. Putting Korvosa on the edge of war with Cheliax.
One thing to throw in to help parties deal with the guard thing and to coax them to ally with Cressida is introduce a bad cop counterpart to Cressida, someone who is obviously in the Queen's pocket. I did this when I ran the AP just a small thing to get across the Queen's growing reach. Played him up as a sort of gestaop type official. The party hated this guy and he went from a small cameo NPC to a recurring villain (finally meeting his end in Escape from Korvosa) It gave the party another reason to ally with Cressida (who helped supply intel to the party to thwart this guy)
You could always sit down with them and say "hey you guys are supposed to be heroes and this wont work if you guys are all paranoid and don't play along, at least for now".
Sometimes being blunt is a good thing.
This isn't "marvel superheroes" this is swords and sorcery fantasy role playing. "Forcing" the guys to all be 'heroically motivated' is semi lame and additionally the way the AP is written, the paranoid is ALL founded.
In Anarchy, Cressida doesn't know of foul queenie yet, but it is actually true. The "word on the street" AND Korvosa background is Illeosa is a sour Egg. So how the characters are reacting isn't wrong.
The traits they all picked (and almost all traits for this AP are this way) give the characters a down and out, come from the streets origin. So there was little to no suspicion, or resistance jumping into the Gaedran hook.
But for people who originated from the streets and are only level 2 so the streets are very much recent memory. They aren't doing anything "wrong". Sure the "love" korvosa, but despise the government, like EVERYone else. The motivation to work with the government isn't there.
Latter on in the AP they shouldn't have any issues with Cressida as written. Here real soon even cressida wont trust the queen (the Trinia issue) which will catch REAL well with this crew.
However picking another NPC to gang up with won't work, because Vencarlo was introduced by Cressida AND was dodgy about his "secret missing two fingers" which is all as written in the AP.
So the characters actually have legitimate reasons not to trust either of them, however unfounded those suspicions may be.
IF the Oracle finds out whats happening and eel's end, she may just wipe the floor with the whole dang place dungeon crawl style.... But it won't be for the sake of getting info to stop the Ambassador from cheliax, its because she will despise the King of Spiders, so she'll be more likely to kill him and keep the bribe money, than to both to sit and treat with him. (kinda like Aragorn and the mouth of Sauron)
Just wondering what everyones take on letting the Ambassador go unchecked is.... not really worried about derailment.
Not using the ambassadeur is okay. It has no repercussions on the rest of the story, but you might need to replace it with another encounter or mini-adventure to keep your PCs on track (XP).
If you like the character of Devargo Barvasi and the setting of Eel's End, you can still do something with it in the third installment of the adventure, when the PCs get stuck on Old Korvosa.
Yeah, they really assume the PCs do certain things, leaving it open to GM creativity if they go off the beaten path.
1) Vencarlo isn't secretive about his missing fingers, he just doesn't like to talk about it. If they have a good enough gather information, even through Cressida, they can hear the story of how Vencarlo and Grau were in love with the same woman, and Grau engineered a duel between Vencarlo and Sabina, where he lost a few fingers and his two best students in the deal. He hedges the story, because he's really sore over it still.
2) If there's any way to save the mission, either by hearing rumors of what the anarchy is doing and what an embargo on goods would do to the city itself, then try to do it. Otherwise, I'd maybe find a way to go around it, like you have already mentioned. Really the missions are there to help them earn xp. If its not for them, you'll have to find another side-mission they'd be more amicable to as a party. If they really hated Lamm, maybe you could drop the hint that Devargo was one of his suppliers for goods? (he was in on the shiver trade in my game)
3) I would say that the embargo likely wouldn't happen this chapter, but would be a real clincher come chapter 2, when it appears during the first parts of the outbreak with Korvosa rushing to get in healing supplies for the sick, and the embargo prevents it. You can show in Ch2 how their apathy to that particular mission is now costing lives, and you should threaten their loved ones (if they have any) or friends with the plague. Just a thought.
on 1) you sure cressida would know all that information? and it says vencarlo really avoids talking about his fingers, which is what made the oracle decide not to trust him (for whatever reason)
I like 2 and 3 those are good ideas.
A few exerpts from page 33:
"If asked about his fingers, Vencarlo pauses for a moment, then admits that he lost them a while back in an unfortunate duel and that he’d rather speak no more on the subject."
"Vencarlo admits that Grau was once one of his most promising students, at which point a PC can attempt a DC 20 Knowledge (local) check to recall hearing something about some scandal involving Grau, Vencarlo, and Sabina."
"He has little more to say about his ex-students at this time, instead trying to shift the topic of the conversation back to the PCs, using flattery and compliments as his primary weapons."
The sorceress in my group was trying to land a 'wealthy husband' and therefore began flirting with him, and made friends with Grau enough to hear a bit of the tale involving the scandal. Then again, she'd also heard Sabina liked women, and flirted with her to see if it was true. ;-)
Figuring that Cressida and Vencarlo are friends, and the scandal was probably something she would've heard about and possibly was there to console a friend for(in a friend type manner), she probably knows about what happened at least in part, but just isn't very open about it as it is her friend's business not everyone elses. So if the party was friendly with Cressida, she'd probably let them know that Vencarlo had 'some trouble' awhile back with two of his more promising students, or something of the like. Similarly, if they befriended Grau, he could give a side of it as well. They likely won't have a lot of interaction with Sabina, as she is busy.
Vencarlo tries dodging the questions with flattery, as it is a sore subject for him. It specifically says he'd rather not talk, not that he stays completely tight-lipped. I assume if they pushed him, he would say so and ask them to drop it, as they aren't good friends yet. If they really want the dirt, like I suggested they could go snooping and likely hear a few truths and falsehoods regarding a scandal, as the aforementioned Knowledge (Local) check says. The details they acquire could be left up to you.
Party has not "met" grau, they did...they just avoided him.
No Grau.
I had a roommate for a year who only heard a story last year via Facebook that I smuggled a girl out of the barracks during an inspection, in a duffle bag. He was my roommate and never knew that happened. Not everybody knows everything about you just because they know you.
I said Vencarlo was dodgy about the subject (because it says he is) players in my group don't assume someone would be more helpful if they rolled higher, if they dont get a good roll, they go with the results, in this case, Vencarlo was tight lipped. Players choice of interpretation, so she chooses not to meta game (she got something in the teens but has not idea what DC she needed so for all she knows she could have had a successful check and he's being deliberately evasive)
DCs, Dice and player choices just haven't put them down the mainstream rail road path, Like I said they almost left the cow hammer boys alone because they were feeding the public! (they missed the roll about their secret merc work by 2) So I had to fudge the encounter a bit.
I haven't had anything constructive to add, so I've been staying quiet, but I WILL warn you that having a group of players who care nothing for Korvosa's well-being or its people will completely derail the AP. We ended up shutting down our Council of Thieves campaign because my players wanted to play shady anti-government types, and they just didn't care about whether Westcrown survived or fell, so none of the adventures made any sense. We had to give up because the AP was the wrong fit for the characters the players wanted to play. Curse of the Crimson Throne has similar weaknesses:
In CotCT, it's fine if they don't want to be Cressida's lap dogs for the moment; it's easy enough to add other encounters that are more their style. I had a group of derro kidnap people and drag them into the sewers, prefacing other events towards the end of the first module. The escaped otyugh is another experience-gainer that doesn't force them to work for the government. There's no reason they *have* to do any of the 'errands' Cressida asks them to do, and there are no long-term repercussions beyond those already mentioned.
HOWEVER, the absolute most sensible thing to do at the start of the second module is leave town and never return. THAT'S going to be the problem the party faces, and from the sounds of your group, they might do it.
So ask yourself, "Does the party care for the people of Korvosa enough to try to save them, or will the party just abandon them to their fates?"
If the answer is truly that the party doesn't care about people too stupid to flee town once things start getting bad, then you really won't have a leg to stand on for the rest of the AP:
- Edge of Anarchy: A vignette of errands for Cressida. Easy enough to work around if the players don't want to cooperate.
- Seven Days to the Grave: Unless the characters care about the people of Korvosa, this will be a complete fail.
- Escape from Old Korvosa: Again, the entire motivation of this module is to try to help restore the old government. A bunch of anarchists wouldn't bother.
- A History of Ashes and beyond: At this point the party's goal becomes to overthrow the government and it could work, but how did you get through modules 1-3?
Anyway, just some rambling on a Halloween morning.
Really? Anarchists didn't work in CoT?? thats like the whole premise of the AP, secret underground anti government group ie children of westcrown.
Characters don't care for the government... not necessarily issues with the city of korvosa it's self.
Background of the AP states mutually the entire city loathes the government, and illeosa is disliked even MORE than her husband, even if she wasn't a villain no one would like her. I didn't write that, it's already there.
So now the expectation is that the players should be the only people in the entire city that care about helping the government? That's ludicrous .
As already stated, the party ALMOST didnt go after the cow hammer boys because it appeared they were doing a good thing, feeding people. So it's not that the party doesn't care about fellow citizens. It's that the AP is written completely contrary to the railroad. All background leads to citizens despising the government with zero motivation for the party to want to help the government (except some money, which isnt even alot) unless you depend on them to a) ignore their character history, and the world they have grown up/lived in and b) counting on blind altruism because "they're from the government, they must be good" (even when the party knows darn well from all the background that they aren't)
As far as what they do when disease hits, that could be problematic as none of them are equipped to do anything about. Won't be able to cure it, even among themselves at that level by the time the scenario occurs and what level they will be when it happens.
I have already toyed with the idea of down playing the disease a bit and making a poisoned water supply (meaning create food and drink, neutralize poison and purify water could by pass it once they figure out how it's getting spread), but I havent decided yet.
I am have an inkling, they will likely just all die of disease themselves.
any scenarios that are "designed to level characters for no reason to ready them for the real story" are very poorly written and shouldn't exist.
This is basically what is happening right now. More or less why the characters have no compulsion to chase after errands.
As for the otyugh, the characters have already battled it, it almost tpkd them... the Ronin was mounted and was able to kite it, she leveraged all the parties wealth to heal them up (was able to stablize them untrained, it was really amazing)
I suspect keeping the characters doing something in Seven days will be easy once they figure skull duggery is afoot, the doctors are nasty and it's all tied to the queen. their paranoia won;t be so paranoid, the doctors really are bad.... they wont trust them the minute they see/hear about them, which should work out fine.
Their motivation will be tracking down the epidemic, hunting down skulky bad guys that are more than they seem, and tying it all to a queen they knew was bad from day one.
That's these guys meat and drink, I won't even have to push them to get that done....
Likewise the Trinia/Blackjack thing and Even the Derro thing wont be hard to get them interested in....just noneof that has occured yet.
what level should they be for eel's end anyway? 2 or 3?
All I said was that my CoT campaign died because the PCs cared nothing for either the people or the city of Westcrown.
If your group is all about saving the people of Korvosa from the evil government, you've got a leg up, but you'll still need to check Escape from Old Korvosa to find out whether they'll even do that portion of the AP at all.
Eel's End doesn't particularly matter whether the party is level 2 or 3, but I know I completely rewrote it so my PCs would have no issues about doing it -- Davargo was the man who'd crippled the bard's master and left him for dead right in front of her. I was big on setting up the little mini-adventures as vendettas, because otherwise it IS just a series of encounters to level up the PCs. You might have the PCs just wander town in the aftermath of the riots for a day or two, and have them find out that he's hoarding medical supplies (a good way to sneak in a wand of Cure Disease), or ordering the assassination of the competition or some such. I pretty much ignored the Chelaxian ambassador angle, and the campaign went just fine.
Unfortunately, most of the APs I've played (Kingmaker, Council of Thieves, Curse of the Crimson Throne) are similar "here's a bunch of encounters, now level up" themes. I'm a lot happier with Rise of the Runelords (GM) and Carrion Crown (player) for much more story-oriented first modules.
But CotCT is my second-favorite AP of all I've played or GMed, so I'd say if you can iron out the lumps in modules 1 and 3, you can probably work out a way to eliminate Cressida as their main point of contact, and you'll be good.
The people of Korvosa don't hate their government. They just didn't like that Eodred was spending money on his vices, but overall he was actually a fair/just king. He was ok on the popularity charts, probably more so than our current presidential candidates.
The city itself is LN and more than anything, the people of Korvosa are strongly geared toward LAW and ORDER and ROUTINE. They are rioting because Ileosa married a man more than twice her age and was known to refer to their wonderful city as a backwater hovel. They don't trust her to run their government well, and the death of Eodred breaks up their routine.
Just as a side question, what are your players' alignments?
The people of Korvosa don't hate their government. They just didn't like that Eodred was spending money on his vices, but overall he was actually a fair/just king. He was ok on the popularity charts, probably more so than our current presidential candidates.
The city itself is LN and more than anything, the people of Korvosa are strongly geared toward LAW and ORDER and ROUTINE. They are rioting because Ileosa married a man more than twice her age and was known to refer to their wonderful city as a backwater hovel. They don't trust her to run their government well, and the death of Eodred breaks up their routine.
Just as a side question, what are your players' alignments?
The barbarian/inquisitor (who sees himself as an heir to the shoanti guardians of old) is Chaotic Neutral (probably will eventually shift into chaotic good, since he's already the 'hero' of the group...sacrificed himself to save the ninja from the otyugh and such)
The Oracle-ninja is neutral good
The Magus is neutral and cares about little much as long as there is money and power (greedy dwarf, rather easy to motivate)
The Ronin is neutral good, but should probably be chaotic good, she just doesn't like the idea of being "labeled" chaotic (an out game thing not an in game issue)
Eodred II is old news, he's dead. They are peeved about Illeosa.
I assume (since nothing is written) that her reputation of usurper and murderess running about the streets are curious coincidence, since no one really knows that for a fact, even though it's true.
I could see a lawful/good party being motivated to try and help out the government and stabilize things only to find out later they were all betrayed.... but this crew comes from an angle in the city where they were already unhappy and now things have become unhappier.
the half orc has it in his goals to drive the cheliaxian descendants from the crimson throne and return a rightful shoanti descendant to control over the sacred ground (himself) and set up a theocracy.
He's naturally going to be anti government.
The Ronin, essentially left elven politics and rule to be free of a master, doesn't want to be ordered around especially for the cost of a few coins. Her motivation will come when accepting a new charge (and a change of order from ronin to order of the seal)
The Oracle-ninja is basically interested in secrets, both mundane and arcane (she loves making indianna jonesy type characters... she had a witch in serpents skull that had the tounges hex so she could read all the ancient runes and stuff she loved that)
Anything about uncovering secrets and righting long over due wrongs always gets her involved.
currently she's the one with all the conspiracy theories, including that Zellara was actually an illusion of the queen.
The Dwarf is at heart a mercenary plain and simple. However his blackblade is serithiel, And as written the dwarf (in his background) the dwarf's goals and attitude will shift as his sword gains power. I see this character eventually shifting to lawful neutral or possibly lawful good (although the player never plays 'good' characters, so probably LN)
The dwarf will be motivated early by rewards of riches and power, and later by the swords goals to defeat kazavon and his minions.
So as i said, most of these characters are tailor made (unintentionally) for end game.
I have thought of engineering Devargo as having been the actual crime boss over geadran Lamm and lamm as an underboss. so I might go that route tying the characters in for some more payback to their original campaign traits.
Eels end makes a cool mini dungeon, it's not a bad encounter, just that the players have issue with government/cressida.
The ninja is also an initiate of the Darklight sisterhood, and the players are currently staying at three rings, so I could have the contact there give them leads or information (with hidden agendas of course)
So coaxing the group into going to Eel's End was a disaster, after wandering around the various ships lost, the group eventually wanders upon Devargos area, totally forgets why they wanted to be there and what they were going to do.... Total Fail. No interest in being there, I threw up my hands and just ended the session for the night.
I might also add the scenario was written a bit odd and boring, with it pretty much centered around playing knivsies.
Total waste.
I should just level them up artificially and get moving with something interesting.
I have to say, every other module in this AP has some kind of game the players are supposed to play --Knivesies in module 1, Blood Pig in Module 3, and Sredna in Module 4. The module spends a lot of time describing the game, the rules, and what happens when the players win/lose.
And my players had no interest whatsoever in any of the games.
So it's definitely not just your group.
Too bad about Eel's End, but as I said, it's really more of a 'gain experience for no particular reason' sidebar where they tried to add a bit of a reason (the Chelaxian ambassador), but you have to play that up or down according to your players.
Since your players are approaching from an anarchic angle, have you considered having them rescue a group of innocent civilians from some overzealous Hellknights? There's a writeup for a situation like that in the first module of Council of Thieves, and the idea is to disable the Hellknights without killing any of them and without being seen. Makes for a bit of roleplaying and tense combat. "Oh, geez, I hope I don't crit by accident!"
hah. SAME group played that very scenario in CoT. Killed EVERYone of the hellknights, rather quickly I might add too.
What did they have?
An elf Urban Ranger
A halfling fighter
A half elf barbarian who eventually became a raging dragon disciple
oh and a dwarf wizard.
They pretty much ate the hell knight wanna bes for breakfast (heavy Iron diet)
What they WANTED to do in CotCT was skulk the castle looking for evidence of the queens misdoings, I really had to discourage that because:
a) I'm not really sure at what level the queen is yet, her power hasnt grown fully, so they have the potential to be way early and screw things up, or get murdered 10 feet in the door depending.
b) no stats early on for people like sabine, Im sure she's not a level 14 fighter at this point in the story.....
just too dang early
One of the characters IS a Knight (the Ronin) but there haven't been any direct confrontations with the order of the nail.
The looters they have been slaughtering were stealing, so the PC's so no reason to save them from the Knights, via risking their own necks so people could get away with stolen goods.
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hah. SAME group played that very scenario in CoT. Killed EVERYone of the hellknights, rather quickly I might add too.
Following is NOT intended to accuse you of badwrongfun. We all have our preferences. The key is to match up the adventures and the groups preferences.
I'm getting the impression that your group
1) Likes to kill things
2) Hates all authority
3) Hates strongly scripted adventures (railroads, if you prefer).
It really sounds like COTCT is not the adventure path for your group. It definitely assumes that the characters will more or less follow the plot, will mostly play nice with others, and will enjoy interacting with others. It has large elements of urban intrigue in it.
With enough work on your part you can probably massage it into something acceptable to your group but, really, why bother? Find a different Adventure Path more to your taste. Kingmaker sounds ideal (never played it). Or Rise of the Runelords. Or whatever.
They hated kingmaker, the boggy rules for building a kingdom were boring and totally took them off track, we canned it because they were bored.
The general consensus is if we were to do it again, we would totally take that part out of the equation. The first module of the AP they liked ok (almost died every session, but it was cliff hangery)
It's NOT really the group as a whole that's the problem rather that the adventure is written poorly for anyone that's not a lawful good automaton.
The backfill nugatey goodness that is the center of Korvosa (or west crown) is written to make you hate hell knights in both cases, and distrust the government fully (in both cases) and then (in CotCT) wants you to go along with them for a time, expecting the PC's to ignore ALL the filling and just eat the frosting.
The problem with the westcrown (CoT) is that the HellKnight encounter was a bunch of clowns in hellknight armor. Earlier in the adventure you had the PCs CONVINCED the big bad wolf was coming, run run run! THEN you turn around and tell them you have to fight the big bad wolf, heck these guys pulled out every stop because they thought they were going to get annihilated.
Their original plan was to distract hellknights with some combat, break the good guy out and run like mad, hopefully being able to outrun the knights. So the planned Uber well and half of them were dead before two rounds of combat were over because the ranger hit with nearly every arrow and the barbarian took them down with the followup.
Who knew you were going to fight commissioner gordon dressed up like batman and not batman himself?
You're saying the party isn't "going along with the script". Have you READ the players companion? THEY ARE. The issue is the "build your character up a few levels" is the part that is NOT going along with the way the city is scripted.
Any plot you gave to PCs that they could read and build characters off of, or make them want to even play the AP, suggests that they aren't or shouldn't be in favor of the government.
It's written nearly the same in that way as Westcrowns back ground, and why not, both are diabolic states (one new money, one old money)?
The people of Korvosa call their King "the Stirge King" (so basically he's about as popular as obama, and his Bride hates the city as much as the city dislikes her, and then wooopsie now she's in charge and there is supposed to be some kind of motivation from the PC's to want to follow her, for a time?
The issue is the plot doesn't supply that motivation, something that's totally, utterly devoid from the background leading up to the AP.
This group hasn't tangled with Hellknights in Korvosa 1) because they look pretty tough and mean and 2) because every time they've seen them they are hacking through looters, who shouldn't be doing what they are doing.
So that's not wanting to kill everything.
IF they wanted kill everything they would have just stormed into Devargo's barge and killed him.
But, when they got there the reaction was :
"This place is gross, why are we here again?"
"I don't remember"
"Lame let's leave"
It was really frustrating because, honestly as written, the encounter was completely LAME. the hook was lame, wandering the ships was lame (party had no interest in Vice, at all, the more you described it the more they said "hmpf".) and then it was just written than you can wander on up to Devargo, then what?
There's no intro, no obstacle, there's a description of the room and the fact that depending on the time of day they wander up, the may just be sitting there with his entourage leering at you.
Yea, Lame.
The only interest in the whole scene was "the little purple dragon" which one the the players wanted to get. You know but there is a room full of thugs covered in spiders to get it that they have no motivation to kill.
There was a discussion amoungst the players of "well he's a criminal, you don't we just kill him"
"well if you kill him, what does that make you?"
"oh a criminal, huh"
So they decided not to just attack them.
The situation with Lamm was quite different, yes they went there for revenge so to say, but there were no issues with wether to fight, they snuck in, and were attacked when they slipped on a sneak roll. They won the fight.
When they searched a cabinet, they were backstabbed, they killed it.
When they confronted Lamm, there were some words said, followed by kill them gobble gut!
But when the elf fired some arrows and the oracle threw some shuriken, at Lamm oooopsie he dead. Wow what a buttercup. Oh well.
Not a band of roving malicious killers. Just went down how it was written.
The encounter was essentially a purpose to get the group together as a whole.
something that was poorly written was emerging from Lamms Lair with the city already in chaos. I would have written it so the party had a chance to go back and investigate Zellaras hut now that she was dead.
But the party was distracted by this new thing, and the way it was written, it looks like it might be a good idea for someone with the means to do so, to leave the city.
PCs should have had (a the time to check Zellaras hut again, and b) sell stuff from Lamms hoard as well as return the brooch to the Queen.
Then when all hell broke loose, Cressida, with all her resources withered to spread too thin, might have sent an emissary to reach out to the PCs as an additional resource because there was a connection already there, as they seemed trust worthy and honest enough just by returning an expensive brooch.
That would have been cleaner and smoother.
As reward for having returned the brooch, they could have been put up in the castle or special accommodations where the favored guests stay or maybe over at long acre or somewhere. They could have been introduced to a queen that didn't seem as bad as the word on the streets made her seem (hey she's not such a bad gal after all).
Character's could have been enjoying a little time as favored guests of the monarchy, even having MET trinia in passing, get their guard down, have them go pigeon hunting with the castle seneschal whatever.
Then, in their new comfy abode where the queen has stuck them, in the middle of the night they are woken to chaos and discord! Shock! Awe! the King has died! Murdering whore queen!
oh No!
Wouldn't be so bad "working for the government" if you had gotten a chance to know them first. But as written, they didn't know them yet, they had every reason to mistrust them, and the king is dead and rumor that the queen killed him is on every tounge before the players even meet the queen.
This is somehow the players fault for not following the silky smooth plot?
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It's NOT really the group as a whole that's the problem rather that the adventure is written poorly for anyone that's not a lawful good automaton.
This really, really isn't true. The group that I'm running through the AP doesn't have a single LG automaton amongst them.
There are definitely two issues with this AP that it seems you're running into. Both are very clearly identified in various old posts about COTCT
1) It was written for 3.5. Pathfinder characters (particularly well optimized Pathfinder characters) are more powerful. Some of the combat encounters need to be made tougher. Sometimes a LOT tougher
2) The "Kill Lamm" set up is quite poor. While it gets the PCs together he dies in the first session. There is no reason for the PCs to stick together, to work with the authorities, etc.
When I ran it I told the players that they must create a character who wanted Korvosa to survive and thrive. A character who would NOT take his relatives and run when things got tough.
I also told them that we were playing a primarily urban campaign that would have considerable amounts of intrigue.
With that minimal guidance my players created characters (none of whom are lawful good) that fit well into the Adventure Path. While they've gone WAY off the rails and the path several times I've always been able to redirect them onto the Path without being particularly heavy handed about it. Being quite flexible helped. I've made significant changes to things where appropriate.
Oh, and the result of running the encounter with Ileosa more or less exactly as written was that one of the characters came to quite like her and the others were more or less unclear. One of the changes that I mentioned above is that it isn't clear to the PCs whether Ileosa is evil, a victim, misunderstood, or somewhere in between all of those.
Agreed, the written encounter doesn't necessarily paint her as evil. but I think it was a mistake to have information available to players or have the death of eodred happen before the PCs meeting her.
I think the PCs made good characters.
They put thought and time into their back grounds with just a few traits to go with.
We even RP'd in Korvosa for a whole session before events of the AP actually began.
Our PCs die (ALOT), they dont make mechanically optimized characters as much as they make ones they feel like playing.
the Lamm thing was a little disappointing but I didn't look at it like that big of a deal.
and as Ive said before, these characters and their back stories are particularly well suited for the AP as a whole, just not this first module so much.
As soon as I can get things to where it picks up, it wont be an issue.
TBH all I was curious about was what the ramifications of letting the Amabassador go unchecked might be.
I think the idea of letting the the plague get out of hand as a result of the ports being closed from a chelish embargo is a good idea. It won't actually change anything about how the story goes, but the PCs wont know that. It will be one of those V8 moments.