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Why are Tengu natural attacks 1d3?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
PRD says wrote:
Natural Weapons: A tengu has a bite attack that deals 1d3 points of damage.
PRD says wrote:
Claw Attack: Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks that deal 1d3 points of damage, and are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.
PRD says wrote:
Tengus are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
PRD says wrote:
Table: Natural Attacks by Size: Bite attacks for most Medium creatures are 1d6, or 1d4 if they're humanoid/bipedal. Claw attacks for Medium Creatures are 1d4.

Comparing the bite for Tengu and the bite for Toothy Orcs, the Tengu is 1d3 and the Orc is 1d4. Comparing the claws of Tengu with the Draconic Sorcerer's Claw ability, the Sorcerer's claw is 1d4 while the Tengu is 1d3.

Should the Tengu be doing 1d4s or was it toned down to 1d3s as a balancing issue?


I think it was toned down for balance, although they really should have called out that it was varying from normal size/natural weapon rules if they were doing so.


The average difference between 1d6 and 1d3 is 1.5.
The average difference between 1d4 and 1d3 is 0.5.

I find it hard to believe that this was a balance decision. More like the particular author for "Toothy" and Tengu just didn't consult the table.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I would say that the fact it has a stated damage die would count for 'calling out it doesn't follow the table.'

The table is a guideline, just like pretty much everything else in the CRB and Bestiary (and later books), stated rules trump the 'general rules,' it's the basis of this type of game. It isn't a matter of them not consulting the table, it was a design decision to not follow it. Multiple attacks at full bonus (being primary natural attacks typically) is very very powerful for any build using sneak attack. A first level Tengu rogue with (a decent to good) bite/claw/claw will put the damage output of a same level/wealth fighter to shame and that fighter won't catch up for quite a few levels (if at all during organized play). It then starts to fade (as TWF builds with more possible attacks come into play) a bit BUT that's when the rogue switches over to TWF from NAs.


lol...I would say that getting 3 primary natural attacks (at level 1 no less...and practically for free) is pretty much all the power a tengu really needs. For further abuse, just slap on two-weapon fighting with improved unarmed strike and multiattack and presto!

5 attacks (as early as level 2) all at only a -2 penalty to hit (with 4 of the attacks at 1/2 strength modifier of course).

By that point, I really don't think worrying about the 1d3 damage is going to matter.

Shadow Lodge

The tengu gets it for free , the orc has to give up a trait for it.

*shoos duskblade with garlic*


*runs screaming to the hills* ;)

Shadow Lodge

d4 average= 2.5
d3 average= 2

I;d be more worried about the bother of a d3 than half a point of damage.

Something i just thought about is that having the claws would technically DROP the damage of your bite attack from d3+ 1.5x strength to d3 + strength.


The problem for me is not the damage it's finding a d3.
I don't think my table has a single one. We really just use d4's.


Just use a d6 and treat the rolls as follows:

1, 2, or 3 (as normal)

4 = 1

5 = 2

6 = 3


Duskblade wrote:

lol...I would say that getting 3 primary natural attacks (at level 1 no less...and practically for free) is pretty much all the power a tengu really needs. For further abuse, just slap on two-weapon fighting with improved unarmed strike and multiattack and presto!

5 attacks (as early as level 2) all at only a -2 penalty to hit (with 4 of the attacks at 1/2 strength modifier of course).

By that point, I really don't think worrying about the 1d3 damage is going to matter.

Just to comment.. your improved unarmed srikes are primary natural attacks, and presumably so is a tengu's bite, as the only natural attack they get normally. The alternate racial trait for their claws states they are primary natural attacks. So there wouldn't be a penalty at all. Multiattack reduces the penalty for secondary natural attacks. Now if said tengu wields a sword instead of using unarmed strikes, then multiattack would help.

Multiattack (Combat)

This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.

Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.

Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.


Unarmed Strike is not considered a Natural Attack (it follows manufactured weapons more closely).

So as soon as you add a manufactured weapon into the mix (which the Unarmed Strikes count as) then your Primary Natural Attacks are treated as Secondary Natural Attacks, and would all get the -2 penalty.
So you would do:
Main Hand Unarmed Strike: -2
Offhand Unarmed Strike (treated as a light weapon): -2
Bite (normally a -5, reduced to a -2 from Multiattack)
Claw 1 (ditto)
Claw 2 (ditto)

But at level 2, with 5 attacks that can provide Sneak Attack damage (because let's face it... You're doing this because you wanna be a Rogue/Ninja), who cares? lol


A tengu's claw attacks should be more properly called talons as its hard to see wings having claws when you can see great honking claws on its feet. 1D3 is more in keeping with talon damage. But treating them as talons instead of claws open up a whole can of worms (yumm!) when considering combining iterative attacks and natural weapons


A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

I and everyone I know count unarmed strikes as natural attacks. And Apraham birds generally don't have claws on their wings. I assume its their talons for those attacks, yes.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Based on folklore a tengu has six limbs, 2 vestigial wings, 2 arms and 2 legs.
The images in the Bestiary or the APG have no visible wings. It is a long stretch to call the limb that is brandishing a sword "a wing", so there the argument "no claw on a wing" is is hardly relevant.
Seeing what ability is replaced by the claw (swordtrained) I would say that the claws are on the arms, they aren't talons on the feet (and so no 5 attacks at level 2, the unarmed strikes replace the claw attacks).

While the Claw Attack alternate trait don't explicitly state what limb you are using there is only 1 example in the bestiary of a bipedal creature with claw on the feet, the giant eagle. Claw are for arms, not for feet. It is not the Talon attack alternate trait.

Shadow Lodge

If you look at the race guide, when you first buy natural attacks, the damage starts off at creature size - 2.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Claw are for arms, not for feet. It is not the Talon attack alternate trait.

Physical Description: Tengus are avian humanoids whose features strongly resemble crows. They have broad beaks and both their arms and their legs end in powerful talons.

Considering they have talons on both hands and feet, I say thee nay.

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