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Fallen Fortress, who can play it?


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

The Exchange ****

I've gotten mixed messages on who can play Master of the Fallen Fortress. Some judges say any PCs of 1st level (O to 2 XP), others say only PCs with 0 XP.
.
and my search-fu has failed me when I try to sort it out from all the posts on it.

So my question is, can a PC that has played First Steps Part 1, then play MotFF?

Thanks for the help!

Sovereign Court *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Modules Subscriber

It was originally intended for fresh new characters with 0 xp only.

However, times have changed, and currently it is treated as a level 1 module, that gives out 1 xp and 1 pp for playing. You can replay it as many times as you want with level 1 characters and only a single time with a level 2 character.

I think the confusion comes from how it has changed its playability since release way back when. That and the fact that rules for playing modules in general has changed a time or two since then as well.

The Exchange ****

Thanks Sniggvert - can I get you to post the same response over ...
here ?

My wife and I are thinking of playing this at a CON in a little over a week - she's got a Wiz with 2 XP and while I can run a newbie, she's figuring she has enough PCs to do her for a while.

And thanks!

Grand Lodge **

Sniggevert, I'd like some clarification on these, if possible:

Sniggevert wrote:
However, times have changed, and currently it is treated as a level 1 module, that gives out 1 xp and 1 pp for playing.

Why 1 pp? I can't find anything in the module to say how many pp you get, but it seems a bit punishing to only get half the usual pp for it.

Sniggevert wrote:
You can replay it as many times as you want with level 1 characters and only a single time with a level 2 character.

As I understand it, you can only play Tier 1 Scenarios/Modules with a level 1 character. Level 2 characters have to play Tier 1-5. Can you point me to the source of the exception you stated?

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Sydney aka Luke_Parry

I am not Sniggevert, but I think I can help...

Chapter 6, Page 30 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play states the following regarding modules:

GtPFSOP wrote:

Free RPG Day Modules

The 16-page, Free RPG Day modules are shorter than a normal 32-page module and are more in line with a normal Pathfinder Society Scenario. Currently, these include Master of the Fallen Fortress, We Be Goblins!, and Dawn of the Scarlet Sun. To bring the Free RPG Day modules more in line with the rest of Pathfinder Society Organized Play, all current and future sanctioned Free RPG Day modules will award 1 XP, 1 PP and the gp amount listed on the Chronicle sheet if using normal advancement. If using slow advancement, they award 0.5 XP, 0.5 PP and half the gp listed on the Chronicle sheet. These apply only on successful completion of the adventure.

In addition, further up the page:

GtPFSOP wrote:
As always, each player may receive credit for each module once as a player and once as a GM, in either order. Players must accept a Chronicle sheet for their character the first time they play a module. A player may replay a module at the GM’s discretion, but the player may not receive more than one player Chronicle sheet per module. The only exception is tier 1–2 modules. A player may only play a tier 1–2 module for credit once with a level 2 character, but may use additional level 1 characters to replay the same module for credit.

I hope that that helps :-)

Liberty's Edge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Marcus Gföller wrote:
it seems a bit punishing to only get half the usual pp for it.

It's not that bad; it used to give 0 PP! Bear in mind that there are no faction missions in the module; on some PFS scenarios it's possible to get 0 PP.

Sovereign Court *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Modules Subscriber

Thanks Luke. Yeah, those blurbs on pg 30 in the Guide were where I was getting my info.

As Paz points out, it used to be worse. You still used to get 1 XP but there was no PP, so you were already behind the curve while they were introducing you to the game.

Grand Lodge **

Thanks for the clarification!

But...

A Tier 1 scenario is not a Tier 1-5 scenario. Level 1 characters may play a Tier 1 scenario or a Tier 1-5 scenario. Level 2+ characters may not play Tier 1 scenarios.
Thus, I'd think a "Tier 1-2 module" is a module specifically labelled as such, and may be played by level 1 and level 2 characters. Master of the Fallen Fortress is labelled as a Tier 1 module, though.

Sovereign Court *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Modules Subscriber

Scenarios have the hard coded tiers (i.e. 1, 1-5, 1-7, 3-7, etc.) with subtiers inside, except the Tier 1 scenarios: (respectively 1-2 & 4-5, 1-2 3-4 & 6-7, 3-4 & 6-7, etc.). For scenarios your character MUST fall inside the overall Tier, though it may fall outside the actual subtier being run at the table. So, a level 4 can play in a tier 1-5 scenario, even if the table is being run at subtier 1-2.

Now with modules, they originally were not intended for PFS play. They have come up the rules to permit PFS play to give players more options overall. All modules available for PFS play can be played with characters within 1 level of the level of the module. So, a level 1 module can be played with level 1-2 characters, a level 3 module by level 2-4 characters, level 5 by 4-6, etc. The only difference for level 1's is that they can be replayed if played with a 1st level character.

They have different rules for determining what is legal to play through them with.

Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber
Marcus Gföller wrote:

Thanks for the clarification!

But...

A Tier 1 scenario is not a Tier 1-5 scenario. Level 1 characters may play a Tier 1 scenario or a Tier 1-5 scenario. Level 2+ characters may not play Tier 1 scenarios.
Thus, I'd think a "Tier 1-2 module" is a module specifically labelled as such, and may be played by level 1 and level 2 characters. Master of the Fallen Fortress is labelled as a Tier 1 module, though.

Modules have the rule that legal characters must be within 1 level of the module's cover level. Thus a the chronicle of a module for Tier 1 may be assigned to a 1st or 2nd level PC. (worded as such to include the We Be Goblins uniqueness).

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Sydney aka Luke_Parry

I think I can see where there is a spot of confusion, here.

The only Tier 1 module, to the best of my knowledge, is:

'Master of the Fallen Fortress'

There are also three Tier 1 Scenarios:

'First Steps' (Part I-III)

As per the GtPFSOP (Chapter 7, Page 32):

GtPFSOP wrote:
If a PC’s level does not fall within the level range of a scenario’s tier, that character can not legally play in that scenario.

So, only 1st level characters can play these scenarios/modules.

This is different to 'Tier 1-2', for which there are the following modules:

'Crypt of the Everflame'
'Godsmouth Heresy'
'Murder's Mark'
'We Be Goblins!'

As noted above, these modules can each be played (or credited to, in the case of We Be Goblins!) *once* with a second level character, and replayed ad nauseum (well, hopefully not quite that much!) with first level characters.

----

So, as far as I understand it, to answer your original question, Marcus, only first level PCs can participate in Master of the Fallen Fortress.

(Which kind of makes sense, as the module is meant to be, narrative-wise, a precursor to joining the Pathfinder Society.)

Sovereign Court *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Modules Subscriber
Luke_Parry wrote:

I think I can see where there is a spot of confusion, here.

The only Tier 1 module, to the best of my knowledge, is:

'Master of the Fallen Fortress'

There are also three Tier 1 Scenarios:

'First Steps' (Part I-III)

As per the GtPFSOP (Chapter 7, Page 32):

GtPFSOP wrote:
If a PC’s level does not fall within the level range of a scenario’s tier, that character can not legally play in that scenario.

So, only 1st level characters can play these scenarios/modules.

This is different to 'Tier 1-2', for which there are the following modules:

'Crypt of the Everflame'
'Godsmouth Heresy'
'Murder's Mark'
'We Be Goblins!'

As noted above, these modules can each be played (or credited to, in the case of We Be Goblins!) *once* with a second level character, and replayed ad nauseum (well, hopefully not quite that much!) with first level characters.

----

So, as far as I understand it, to answer your original question, Marcus, only first level PCs can participate in Master of the Fallen Fortress.

(Which kind of makes sense, as the module is meant to be, narrative-wise, a precursor to joining the Pathfinder Society.)

Actually, the confusion IMO is due to the evolving rules for module play. As of 4.2 there is no longer a "Tier 1" module. The only restriction for playing is that you be within 1 level of the level of the module. So, MoFF is now in line with all of the other level 1 modules, and can be played by level 1-2 characters.

MoFF used to require squeeky new characters too, and that restriction was lifted in the previous season I believe. If not, it definitely was removed with this iteration of the guide.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Sydney aka Luke_Parry

I took the text I quoted above directly from:

Version 4.2 (August 16, 2012)

I assure you, on p.32, there is still definitely a 'Tier 1' listed.

If I am looking at the wrong document, please let me know - I just downloaded it again, to make sure :-/

EDIT:

I can see where you are coming from - 'Tier 1' is specifically mentioned with respect to scenarios, not modules.

Regarding modules, the Guide has the following to say:

GtPFSOP wrote:
all players must use an existing Pathfinder Society character (without modification) within 1 level of the module’s starting level.

In which case, you *can* play Master of the Fallen Fortress with a second level PC, once!

The only problem that I can see is that the Chronicle Sheet still refers to it as being 'Tier 1', which could be a source of confusion for GMs :-/

Grand Lodge **

Ah, great, thanks! Now, I still can't play MotFF and follow it with all three First Steps, which I think is a horrible shame, but at least I can run that adventure (which I've prepared in the past, already) for level 2s should I ever run out of options. :)

Sorry for being so shaky on the guide. I swear I've read it several times already but it's a lot to get into your head if you're just starting with PFS. :)

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Sydney aka Luke_Parry

Marcus Gföller wrote:
Sorry for being so shaky on the guide. I swear I've read it several times already but it's a lot to get into your head

Heh. Well, if the above discussion is any indication, that makes at least two of us ;-) At least we managed to reach the right answer in the end!

The important thing (and the thing which these boards is definitely good for), is that we are able to work-out problems like these, so that we *all* understand the rules properly :-)

The Exchange ****

Thread Necro!!!

Ok, I still haven't played this, and I'm setting up an even at my home and it might get run... so I need to know the current rules on this.

Who can play this? can it be played with a 2nd level PC now?

Thanks!

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Captain, Louisiana—New Orleans aka anthonydido

Here is the relevent pragraph from the Guide to Organized Play:

Guide wrote:

As always, each player may receive credit for each

module or Adventure Path volume once as a player and
once as a GM, in either order. Players must accept a
Chronicle sheet for their characters the first time they play
any sanctioned content. A player may replay sanctioned
content at the GM’s discretion, but the player may not
receive more than one Chronicle sheet per adventure.
The only exceptions are Tier 1–2 modules and sanctioned
Adventure Path content. A player may only play a Tier 1–2
module or sanctioned Adventure Path content for credit
once with a 2nd-level character, but may use additional
1st-level characters to replay the same content for credit.

In short, all tier 1-2 mods can be replayed with different level one characters or once with a level 2 character.

The Exchange ****

Anthony DiDomenico wrote:

Here is the relevent pragraph from the Guide to Organized Play:

Guide wrote:

As always, each player may receive credit for each

module or Adventure Path volume once as a player and
once as a GM, in either order. Players must accept a
Chronicle sheet for their characters the first time they play
any sanctioned content. A player may replay sanctioned
content at the GM’s discretion, but the player may not
receive more than one Chronicle sheet per adventure.
The only exceptions are Tier 1–2 modules and sanctioned
Adventure Path content. A player may only play a Tier 1–2
module or sanctioned Adventure Path content for credit
once with a 2nd-level character, but may use additional
1st-level characters to replay the same content for credit.
In short, all tier 1-2 mods can be replayed with different level one characters or once with a level 2 character.

Thanks Anthony, that's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure that MotFF isn't going to be a problem (as it is listed as Tier 1, like First Steps, and not as a Tier 1-2).

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Captain, Louisiana—New Orleans aka anthonydido

Yeah, all mods are listed as one particular level but you can play in them with a character one higher or one lower than the listed level. In the case with tier one mods you can't go lower so you're left with 1 or 2 so they are essentially tier 1-2. And remember this is a mod, not a scenario like first steps.

The Exchange ****

Anthony DiDomenico wrote:
Yeah, all mods are listed as one particular level but you can play in them with a character one higher or one lower than the listed level. In the case with tier one mods you can't go lower so you're left with 1 or 2 so they are essentially tier 1-2. And remember this is a mod, not a scenario like first steps.

Thanks Anthony. I needed to check, we're running it tomorrow for some beginers and one of them has a 2nd level PC and was wondering if he would need to create a new one to play.

is there any modifications to the chronicle for a 2nd level PC? would there be any "out of sub-tier" change to the gold or anything?

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Louisiana—New Orleans aka waltero

Although it only awards 1 XP, Master of Fallen Fortress is a module. To my knowledge, the module gold award is not adjusted by level, only by whether or not they found all of it.

The Exchange ****

thanks everyone!

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Captain, Louisiana—New Orleans aka anthonydido

Glad to help, :).

Liberty's Edge ****

@nosig: Remember that MotFF now awards one PP, as well. It originally did not, but it does now.

The Exchange ****

kinevon wrote:
@nosig: Remember that MotFF now awards one PP, as well. It originally did not, but it does now.

Thanks! I actually knew that one (played Saturday), and passed it onto the Judge - who was going to mark the chronicles with 2.

This was great! It was my first time playing this... which is kind of amazing as I have played everything else (only 9 left to play, all season 4 & 5), and have been working my way thru the Mods and APs. I've played or run First Steps something like 10 or 12 times... and even Crypt of the Everflame 4 or 5 (and Murder's Mark, and... you get the idea). And I rather enjoyed it - even playing a non-combat type PC (street performer bard).

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Tangent:

We now have both ways of becoming a Pathfinder. Field commission (motFF) and the 'old fashioned way' (The Confirmation)

Might be fun to have future characters be rivals over 'their first time'.

The Exchange ****

Matthew Morris wrote:

Tangent:

We now have both ways of becoming a Pathfinder. Field commission (motFF) and the 'old fashioned way' (The Confirmation)

Might be fun to have future characters be rivals over 'their first time'.

heck, now that my "new guy" has done MotFF, he needs to do the training and play The Confirmation, then he'll get sent on his first mission (First Steps)...

and it will have taken me only 14 PCs to do it correctly!

**** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Pirate Rob

Actually, I like MotFF, First Steps and then the Confirmation.

Present yourself to the Grand Lodge and be rejected, only to happen to rescuse a Pathfinder agent and be accepted.

Then run some tasks around town to get more comfortable with the organization and then finally go through your confirmation to become a real field agent and achieve level 2.

The Exchange ****

Pirate Rob wrote:

Actually, I like MotFF, First Steps and then the Confirmation.

Present yourself to the Grand Lodge and be rejected, only to happen to rescuse a Pathfinder agent and be accepted.

Then run some tasks around town to get more comfortable with the organization and then finally go through your confirmation to become a real field agent and achieve level 2.

hmmm... maybe I'll do it that way then. I can introduce myself as a Probationary Field Agent then, as we go around town during First Steps... Yeah, that could work too.

Thanks!

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Pirate Rob wrote:

Actually, I like MotFF, First Steps and then the Confirmation.

Present yourself to the Grand Lodge and be rejected, only to happen to rescuse a Pathfinder agent and be accepted.

Then run some tasks around town to get more comfortable with the organization and then finally go through your confirmation to become a real field agent and achieve level 2.

if it wasn't for the 'first character' boon that would be awesome to do for new players.*

*

Spoiler:
I'd hate to deny players a chance to use that boon just because I was building a theme for them.

Silver Crusade ***

So does this mean since We be goblins is tier 1-2 module that I can apply it to a level 3 character once, since he is within 1 level of the level requirement of the module?

Liberty's Edge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
poundpuppy30 wrote:
So does this mean since We be goblins is tier 1-2 module that I can apply it to a level 3 character once, since he is within 1 level of the level requirement of the module?

No. The goblins are all 1st level, so the chronicle can be applied to a 1st or 2nd level PC.

Similarly WBG2's pregens are 3rd level, so the chronicle can be applied to a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level PC.

Silver Crusade **

For all practical purposes, MotFF should only be played with 1st level characters. Even if a current/future ruling clarifies it CAN be played by 2nd level, the module is really written with level 1 characters in mind. I just ran it with only level 1's (6 of them) and they did great. If there were level 2's in the party, they wouldn't have broken a sweat. It's just not that fun. It become an issue of practicality more than technicality.

I realize that if technically level 2's can play then you can't disallow their entry into the game but I think you can discourage it.

Liberty's Edge ****

Prethen wrote:

For all practical purposes, MotFF should only be played with 1st level characters. Even if a current/future ruling clarifies it CAN be played by 2nd level, the module is really written with level 1 characters in mind. I just ran it with only level 1's (6 of them) and they did great. If there were level 2's in the party, they wouldn't have broken a sweat. It's just not that fun. It become an issue of practicality more than technicality.

I realize that if technically level 2's can play then you can't disallow their entry into the game but I think you can discourage it.

So, would you also disallow what you did, since the module is written for 4 15 point buy PCs?

For 4 PCs, no matter their level, that last combat can be brutal.

Silver Crusade **

I agree, 4 Level 1's would have a tough go.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think the confusion here is that people are refering to Master of the Fallen Fortress as a Tier 1 adventure. If it is listed that way anywhere, it should be updated.

Only some Scenarios are Tier 1.

Modules all have a starting level. The PFS Tier for a module is level-1 to level+1. For Level 1 modules you can't be a level 0 PC so the Tier is always 1-2.

There is no "Out of Subtier" for modules because modules do not have subtiers.

Silver Crusade **

The thing that's different about this module is that it's chronicle sheet does NOT say that it's Tier 1-2, it only shows Tier 1, whereas other sheets like WBG! does show that (and that module also says it's for Level 1 characters).

Also, based on how the module is set up, it could be seriously imbalanced with level 2's playing it. Look at The Confirmation, it actually scales for a level 2 table.

Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

That's not a difference of any consequence whatsoever, Prethen.

Liberty's Edge ****

Prethen wrote:

The thing that's different about this module is that it's chronicle sheet does NOT say that it's Tier 1-2, it only shows Tier 1, whereas other sheets like WBG! does show that (and that module also says it's for Level 1 characters).

Also, based on how the module is set up, it could be seriously imbalanced with level 2's playing it. Look at The Confirmation, it actually scales for a level 2 table.

And the chronicle goes back to when that module was released, it has NOT been updated for the various rules' changes since.

I am not sure if it was even updated for the change in how consumables and death in modules was handled originally.

I would have to take a look, but it might still show 0 PP...

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