Goblin Squad Member
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Wow, this is sounding even better and better as more details roll in. You guys really seem to have done a great job of "rethinking the box" as they say while still keeping a certain level of familiarity for MMO players AND retaining a Pathfinder flavor. Really impressive the depth of thought that's gone into this.
The opportunity debuff thing is a pretty neat mechanism to use to deal with the problem of more defensive classes being ignored in PvP target selection and make positioning important. It uses a pretty standard MMO function (debuffs) in a novel way. Even if attackers aren't prevented from running past/through the blocking line, the tactic of doing so becomes self-defeating as it turns the blockers into situationaly more dangerous opponents then the backfield that they are protecting. Really nice idea, and it's going to help make combat much more tacticaly interesting.
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So thinking through things as a combatant there are lots of interesting decisions that start to arise due to the described mechanics (even setting aside mass combat for the moment). Obviously the best way to go on defense is to find an area with a constricted approach that you can funnel attackers through and stretch your melee line across that. If you can't do that and you find yourself out in the open...you're left with a very interesting choice. Do you put all your melee fighters line abreast so that you maximize thier combat output and risk an attacker doing a wide end run around your line and getting into your backfield or do you form a circle/square with your melee folks so you have complete protection of your backfield but risk a portion of that melee not contributing thier fighting power if the enemy chooses to only engage you frontaly?
As an attacker you've also got interesting decisions to make. Do you concentrate your ranged/spell attacks on the enemies backfield who theoreticaly are throwing more damage your way in order to neutralize them with ranged attacks....or do you try to concentrate fire at one point on the melee line in order to "break" it and safely push attackers in to engage the backfield in close combat. Do you hold back one or two folks from melee (reducing your combat output) for the express purpose of easly being able to quickly rush through and exploit and breaks that occur?
There are interesting decisions to make about the backfield too...what do you do with your guys that are very capable with both ranged and melee combat (e.g. a "ranger"). Do you keep them in the backfield to let them throw more firepower and maybe switch and plug holes that develop....or do you throw them into the melee line to extend your frontage/coverage?
I love that the game is going to have us thinking about all these sorts of decisions!
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I initially heard about multiclassing, I thought it would be a bit more traditional. The idea of being a fighter who switches up his abilities and turns into a wizard is fun, but will true hybrids be viable? Like a guy who wants to be a fighter and a wizard at the same time?
Dual-wield Sword and Staff? Gandalf Style?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... will true hybrids be viable? Like a guy who wants to be a fighter and a wizard at the same time?
I think it will largely come down to the choices the player makes, and the requirements they put on each ability.
I could easily see a Fighter/Wizard that operates mainly as a Wizard but has access to the Fighter abilities that don't require special weapons or armor - things like Die Hard.
Ultimately, I would expect a Fighter/Wizard in PFO to have to make the same kinds of trade-off decisions that a multi-class Fighter/Wizard would have to make in a well-run PFRPG tabletop game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I initially heard about multiclassing, I thought it would be a bit more traditional. The idea of being a fighter who switches up his abilities and turns into a wizard is fun, but will true hybrids be viable? Like a guy who wants to be a fighter and a wizard at the same time?
My understanding was that it'd be doable, though you'd risk spell failure for casting in armor. Whether it's pure 50/50 or you only get a couple spells is unclear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My objection is to the hard limit of 6 abilities. It's not that I think 6 is the wrong number, it's that I think having to force all the different Roles to use the same number is going to create some really unfortunate design pressures.For the record, I was wrong. Limiting players to 6 "active" abilities isn't going to create any significant design pressures. The designers will be able to create a large number of abilities to capture the feel of the classes. It's the players who will feel the pressure to make their build work with 6. I'm not thrilled with the decision, but it's not my fame and fortune on the line, and I recognize that my own preferences in this area are not based on solid research and game-design experience.
I trust you guys to make it work, and I'll quit harping about a boat that's already sailed.
A few possible reasons to back-up the use of keeping the "active" number of skills in hand, so to speak:
1) It may help create less of gap between inexperienced player's creating effective builds and experienced players?
2) I'm guessing the number of combinations involved starts to sky-rocket and that needs to be managed.
Those are probably related reasons for the above as well as the question of what are players going to need to use/will end up using, in each of those 6 second pulses. The blog mentions keeping the UI tidy being able to call up the skill you wish to use in those 6 seconds with accuracy, as well as relying on other party members to fill in the blanks of skills not available.
As to pushing that number up in a few cases... have I wrapped my head around it right, that if you learn some fighter/ranger/rogue eg BOW skills each will be a different one per different role?? If I've grasped that right, then it would mean potentially a good range of different "bow specific" skills? Not sure I understand that in the correct way?
I get what you're saying, "variety is the spice" if your moves can be sufficiently unexpected that is a lot of fun, but I suppose the tactics rely on what you do during 6 seconds and how you mix things up for the next round of 6 seconds?! But I am a bit against a UI with tons of skills on it: Each skill just feels less important apart from some key ones that I rely on all the time eg in WAR, a pet class I'd set in motion on a target and then sneak around and spike just as the pet launches - if it went well they'd drop, if ok, the second pet would chase them and finish them (out of range) and if bad, I'd bail and leave 3rd pet to block. That was all I did - but it was great fun!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I get what you're saying, "variety is the spice" if your moves can be sufficiently unexpected that is a lot of fun, but I suppose the tactics rely on what you do during 6 seconds and how you mix things up for the next round of 6 seconds?! But I am a bit against a UI with tons of skills on it: Each skill just feels less important apart from some key ones that I rely on all the time eg in WAR, a pet class I'd set in motion on a target and then sneak around and spike just as the pet launches - if it went well they'd drop, if ok, the second pet would chase them and finish them (out of range) and if bad, I'd bail and leave 3rd pet to block. That was all I did - but it was great fun!
I played The Old Republic for awhile, and used quite a few skills (Commando, Healing focused). I had my basic attack, my quick heal, main heal, AOE heal that also pumps my other heals. I had my big AOE attack, a spammable AOE attack, two focused fire options, a stun, a knockback skill, and then a small variety of self buffs.
All told, I had probably 7-8 skills I would use each battle *minimum*, and closer to an extra dozen I would be using in at least 1/3 battles. I liked the complexity, and the point I'm getting at is this: I had far more things I should be doing in a fight than 6 skills.
A cleric in PFO will have a basic attack (swing a sword, beam of holy light, whatever). If someone is focused on healing...they can channel, have a heal spell/skill, and 3 other things total. And that is all they'll ever be able to do. For the lifetime of the game. Area heal. Single heal. 3 other things. What makes leveling up so exciting for me? Learning new skills and being able to use them. Why did I stop playing The Old Republic? Because I got to the point where every skill I earned was just the old one +10%. It was stale, nothing new to see.
In PFO, why learn new skills if you won't really be able to use them? Combat would end up feeling very stale, since you won't be doing anything but 6 things for all eternity. A sandbox game is, to me, all about the complexity. Giving me a plethora of options at any given time. The lack of options is rather...concerning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I was using a range of skills in WAR, to add different effects, eg I'd use a dot first (so the target thought the pet was only attacking them!) then some debuff and then a spike and then a root or some such depending on if the target suddenly became aware of "their peril" (!) and went to attack me or retreated etc. So yeah, it's good to use a range of skills depending on the response, but in effect the strategy was not too different is what I was really trying to say.
But with x3 different weapon switches that's already what about 18 skills per those 3 weapons with the possibility of adding new weapons/role. I agree regarding:
What makes leveling up so exciting for me? Learning new skills and being able to use them. Why did I stop playing The Old Republic? Because I got to the point where every skill I earned was just the old one +10%. It was stale, nothing new to see.
In fact most mmorpgs I've played the LEARNING new skills has been the best part of the game. But learning those strategies on top is what really makes the gameplay. So if the skills add to that it's less vital to have a lot of skills at once. I think other games excel at longevity for this reason ie.
The problem perhaps is if each weapon/role those 6 skills are set in stone, then you're only combining sets of skills (eg 15 different weapons so 15 different sets = 15 combined into 3 equipped weapons in different ways) not skills (15*6 in any arrangement). Yeah, that is something to think about, how that affects the combat. Eg does a set start to feel stale too quickly for a weapon? Do I get fed up of that same animation on #1? And so on...
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Goblin Squad Member
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6 ACTIVE ability slots for each weapon set....plus having those switch into spells if you equip a spell book...plus refresh ability slots... plus utility slots sounds like plenty to me.
When you think about it ALOT of the hotbar abilities you use in other MMO's (I know this is true for LOTRO) are pretty much identical to each other with different animations and maybe a point or two of damage difference, etc.
I also have the feeling that unlike other MMO's, combat in PFO isn't going to be all about which hotbar keys you hit. You can see right from Lee's post that mentioned "Opportunity Debuffs" that positioning and where you are moving starts to matter. Clearly it seems how you setup/prepare before combat matters. We can see from the blog weapon choice matters. I wouldn't be surprised to start to see other elements creep in as well.
So what I'm starting to see here is a concept that the interface is kept clean and the user isn't presented with an overwhelming number of active abilities he needs to worry about juggling in a single combat....but the context in which those abilities are used can make big differences tacticaly.
That's a really nice way to go (IMO). It means that muscle memory and keyboard skills aren't such huge issues. It also means that an inexperienced player doesn't have to worry about getting buried in the details of what dozens of abilities do when confronted with combat...he can play at a basic level by just selecting from the handfull of abilities he has slotted.... but the context in which those abilities are used starts to add a layer of depth which more experienced players can use to thier advantage. Think about Chess, there are only 6 different types of pieces that you have to remember movement rules for... a very simple game on it's face....but the context of the board positions at any given time add an infinate variety of decision making about those moves.
Personaly, I like it alot. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to give a quick reminder that skills do not translate into attacks or even options you'd use on a hotbar. While some may lead to unlocking new abilities, most will not in my understanding.
From what I've heard, it'll be possible to invest almost entirely in non combative skills if one chooses (crafter, merchant, ect...) So having a limited number of attacks in combat shouldn't prevent anyone from investing in exciting new skills and merit badges.
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Goblin Squad Member
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6 ACTIVE ability slots... sounds like plenty to me.
I'll admit, when I first started playing WoW, I pretty much always just used 1-6 for my abilities, with a small number of utility-type abilities that were harder to get to.
I'll also admit that I utterly loathed the experience later of getting my hotbars set up, then getting new abilities that forced me to completely rearrange everything I'd gotten used to.
But there's something that sticks in my craw about a system where I have the Skill and the Ability and I've met all the gear requirements to use 7 abilities, but I have to choose one that I can't use. It just doesn't make sense.
I trust you guys to make it work, and I'll quit harping about a boat that's already sailed.
Let's pretend I said I'll try to quit harping :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I initially heard about multiclassing, I thought it would be a bit more traditional. The idea of being a fighter who switches up his abilities and turns into a wizard is fun, but will true hybrids be viable? Like a guy who wants to be a fighter and a wizard at the same time?
My understanding of the system is that if you were a fighter skilled in using a staff (6 ability slots) and a skilled wizard who had a magical staff (6 ability slots). Then you could choose to run around in robes wielding a staff. But there may have to be some trade-off between which weapon abilities and staff abilities you can use when the staff is equiped.
It hasn't been specifically said but the part in the blogs leads me to believe they you will be able to customise the hotkeys, so maybe Nihimon will be able to use 7 abilities if he really wants to. Whatever the case it sounds like a fun system.
If it were possible to connect different abilities with a weapon (like the staff example) then it would be cool if there was some way to change the the abilities assigned to the staff. For instance, you may have one set abilities if you want to go full fighter, another if you want to use the full abilities of the staff and a hybrid method as well. All on the smae staff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what I love so much about that system though is that it allows for things not really practical in the standard WoW style system. For instance in Guild Wars you would often have multiple skills that were almost identical except for slight variations, and a few that were identical in all but name.
So when picking the skill that puts an effect on the target that makes them take a slight amount of healing each time they take damage, you can really pick the one that best suits you. Do you want the one that can be used on everyone or the one that can be used on everyone but you, and is slightly stronger? Do you want the one the lasts longer or the one that has a shorter cool down? Or do you want to consume two ability slots to have multiple styles, or the same style with separate cooldowns?
These are choices you just don't get to make in a WoW style game. With ability slots being a limited resource though, these are actually major decisions that can really allow you to fix up your character's abilities as you see fit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A couple of things.
1) Welcome aboard Lee!
2)I wanted to clarify something. When we talk about 6 skills for a sword, are these 6 skills highly interchangeable or are they always standard.
For example a sword always has Slash, Stab, Thrust, Whirlwind, Riposte, Backhand, Cleave and Sunder, now choose which of those you want? This would be pretty much the GW2 version, since skills tied to weapons never change. A warrior always gets Abilities 1-6 for his weapon. Each warrior you encounter wielding a 1 Handed sword will always have the same skills.
Or.. Here is a bunch of edged weapon skills outlined in a pool that you can train and apply to any "1H Edged" weapon you have. This pool may change dependent on your class and is large enough that coming up against two fighters both armed with a Longsword could result in one having mastered a number of Ripostes, Parries, Flicks and twists and be all Errol Flynn on you, while the other specializes in the "overhand decapitating barbarian barrel roll" Conan style.
Similarly two fire wizards, one specialises in the fine art of nuclear disaplys of area effect spells while another relies on general highly incinerative (I made up a new word!) effects based around the opponents face.
Obviously option 2 presents a massive amount of variation and endless laughs as someone pulls off a combination you've never quite seen before and dominates you. While option 1 allows for more sanity from a developer point of view since everything is a little more controlled and players can find fighting to be a little more predictable and create strategies accordingly.
I'd probably personally love option 2 more, but would completely understand if the developers laughed me off and said we're sticking with no 1.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I would not want to see a lot of abilities based on "1h edged" class weapons.
They should be based on things like "heavy", "slashing", "rogue", "finessable", "exotic", "double", and "tripping".
A basic longsword would have only a couple of keywords, while a dwarves ugrosh would have many. That doesn't make the ugrosh better than the sword, but someone using the ugrosh would allow selecting from a larger set of combat abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lee Hammock,
Can you tell us whether or not we'll be able to set up 2 Weapon Sets with the same set of weapons? Or will the game force us to carry 2 Great Swords if we want to have 2 Weapon Sets based on using a Great Sword? Or will the game simply not allow us to set up 2 Weapon Sets using the same type of weapon?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Similar to the above, I'd like to see the ability to set different stances, that could be swapped, as the tide of battle changes; so most of your offensive moves could be on one bar, but if yoy start getting your butt kicked, you could flick the switch, and choose between dodging, parrying, total defense, withdrawal, ....
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I think the limited ability slots is nice as it allows more fluid multiclassing with stacking abilities without it going overboard because you have limits to fit it all into. As came up before multiclassing works on PnP because everyone has the same limit of levels, this limited slots can act the same way, hopefully allowing me to stack my shocking grasp + sneak attack + unarmed strike and be balanced because I am eating up limited slots to be able to use it.
However I get the feeling they are gimping this ability even though it doesn't need to be with limited slots. (Why do I need a dagger to sneak attack? Will I be able to sneak attack with my scorching ray? I could in PnP and I hope to be able to in PFO, and perfectly willing to use up my slots to do so)
I do agree that the system in general sounds good and I may very much like it, though I do still see a few things I may dislike depending on how they go.
- I like the holy symbol vs. Character selection of a god. But can I make a religious symbol of a religion with customized domains and such? I have a religion for PnP with the same selection and restrictions as a diety and it would be cool to go in and spread my religion with my own designed and made holy symbols with the domains of my religion.
- How many domains will be on a holy symbol? and if two, is every god reduced to two domains or are the two domains on a symbol random or selected? by the wielder or the crafter?
- Will I be able to activate spellbook cast a spell and have my sword ready again quickly or will I need to spend time switching between spell and sword even though I didn't put my sword away?
- Can I as a caster/fighter put three of the abilities from my doublesword and three spells on my 6 slots so I don't have to click back and forth?
- Will I be able to sneak attack with my bow?
- Will I be able to be a mystic theurge or will all spells come from the same mana pool?
- Why isn't sneak attack a passive slot skill?
- Can I trade out certain slot types even with restrictions? Aka, can I make an item junkie that uses lots of different single use consumables instead of just two?
- Will each weapon set trade out the entire skill slot bar to a different set, certain sections, or just the 6 weapon slots?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lee Hammock,
Can you tell us whether or not we'll be able to set up 2 Weapon Sets with the same set of weapons? Or will the game force us to carry 2 Great Swords if we want to have 2 Weapon Sets based on using a Great Sword? Or will the game simply not allow us to set up 2 Weapon Sets using the same type of weapon?
Also, will the rest of my slots change when I change Weapon Sets? Specifically, will my Refresh Slots, Utility Slots, Consumable Slots, and Passive Slots all be based on my selected Weapon Set? Or will changing Weapon Sets only change my Weapon Slots?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, will the rest of my slots change when I change Weapon Sets? Specifically, will my Refresh Slots, Utility Slots, Consumable Slots, and Passive Slots all be based on my selected Weapon Set? Or will changing Weapon Sets only change my Weapon Slots?
I had assumed, and really hope it is the case, that changing weapons meant changing weapon slots only. Gear is not a strong enough limitation. That may stop me from going from fighter to wizard effectively but not from monk to wizard or sorcerer, or ranger to druid, bard or rogue. But I would imagine a monk and a wizard or a druid and a rogue would use very different things in their passive, refresh, utility, a consumable slots even if they can both make effective use of leather armor.
Goblinworks Founder
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loving the information so far. I have a question regarding armor changing, are we going to see a long "cast time" when switching out armor? For example, A player is wearing leather armor while scouting a battlefield, not in combat, then decides to don his chainmail hauberk before moving toward a known hot spot, would say 10seconds sound like a reasonable time to change shirts? meaning he could be ambushed mid change and caught by surprise?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had a very interesting thought today though... how will shape-shifting work? That is very likely to make it in since druid is a core class. But obviously shapeshifting will change your abilities drastically. I wonder if it will be like changing your weapon or cause deeper changes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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shapeshifting could be linked to a 'totem' or similar item, like a druid equivalent of holy symbol. I would like a system where shifting to a bear would require a bear totem crafted from loot a bear, etc, and where druid totems, wizard wands, priest symbols and warrior weapons become commodities on equal level (ie losing your totem hurts about the same as losing your sword).
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Goblin Squad Member
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shapeshifting could be linked to a 'totem' or similar item, like a druid equivalent of holy symbol. I would like a system where shifting to a bear would require a bear totem crafted from loot a bear, etc, and where druid totems, wizard wands, priest symbols and warrior weapons become commodities on equal level (ie losing your totem hurts about the same as losing your sword).
What a great opportunity for merit badges--you must defeat the animal you want to shape to in order to master that shape. Be awesome if druids could "defeat" rather than kill animal opponents.
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Goblin Squad Member
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re 6 abilities:
* As I understand it (some guesswork, please correct me if you have more facts):
a. We assume there will typically be more than 6 abilities available to choose from for each weapon, so that tactics/styles depends on chosen abilities and not just choice of weapons. (Exception seems to be spellbooks and symbols, which will be 'pre-loaded' with specific spell combos and domain abilities).
b. Mostly abilities will be unlocked by merit badges, but only be useful with appropriate weapons. Example power attack for heavy weapons, sneak attack for rogue weapons. Non-standard combinations (sneak attack with greatsword) will require non-standard weapons or specialized training. Weapon keywords are not abilities but determine which abilities are available.
d. Certain (powerful) items will have specific pre-slotted abilities. These may require some character ability to use (for a dagger with vampiric touch, maybe sneak attack or necromancy 101?), so that new characters cannot immediately exploit the full power. Whether these pre-loaded abilities fill up a slot even if not usable is unknown.
e. Powerful items will so because they allow powerful abilities and combinations, not due to flat bonuses (ie "+5 swords"). We seem to assume that there will be some degree of bonuses, but GW statements indicate that dps will come from the moves and not from the weapons.
* I see the 6-slot (or 24 slot limit, or how you count it) as analog to 'magic the gathering' (that may have changed since i played it 20 yrs ago): your total abilities is like your total cards, and the action bar setup like a deck. You can change your deck between duels but not in the middle of one. Every combo can be beaten by some other combo, and putting together the right deck is as important as playing the cards. This is what I hope for PFO - a rock/scissor/paper game where anticipating and adapting to your opponent's style is more important than reflexes, hardware and macros.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had assumed, and really hope it is the case, that changing weapons meant changing weapon slots only.
I can see it going either way. I think it probably depends on whether the Cleric Refresh slots require the Holy Symbol to be equipped.
e. Powerful items will [be] so because they allow powerful abilities and combinations, not due to flat bonuses (ie "+5 swords"). We seem to assume that there will be some degree of bonuses, but GW statements indicate that dps will come from the moves and not from the weapons.
That's a very good thing to point out, I think.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I like the concept of druid totems having a similar keyword arrangement.
Perhaps making the keywords augment (some?) abilities rather than permit them might make more people happy without really changing balance; each ability could have up to two keywords that significantly improve the effect. The intended function would be to only use abilities which work well with the weapon equipped. As a specific example, daggers could perform sneak attacks better but power attacks poorly, and vice versa for a greatsword.
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I like that better, if I have sneak attack I could see a short sword working better then a longsword, but certainly can't see the longsword not working at all.
I think it fits even better with magic abilities and such, without a totem I can morph into a creature, but with the totem I can use the creatures more advanced abilities.
I also support the analogy of the slotted abilities being like a deck. Merit badges and skill training grant more cards and the ability to use them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just curious on the fascinating "pool of points/6sec" resource. Does this pool always remain the same size? Are new players given fewer points, mid-level the max. and top level just more choices but no more points, or are there a few exceptions that break the general rule of a constant size of pool (universal)? Is it intended so that every combat each player has even number of points so it's always a case of how you use them most effectively that counts? Or are there abilities/upgrades that lower the cost of pts for a skill for eg?
Tbh I'm not sure what would work best given so many different factors and factors over time with players accumulating more skill choices gradually. But I think it sounds great that a player could use all pts rapidly and run out of actions or use a few skills keeping back a pts-heavy skill in case the opportunity to max. it's use comes along at tail end of eg on the 5 sec.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see everyone have the same pool size, and the cost of the abilities can be reduced with specialization. If you allow people to increase the size of their resource pool it allows for one skill tree with a huge benefit, and it becomes a 'must have' skill, and one thing you don't want in a skill tree system is 'must have' skills.
I would like to see a significant portion of beta go to testing out full progressions, allowing a large number of players to experiment with the skill system freely, adding and removing skills at will, and testing them in various environments. The skill system is a core part of the game, and something that will need to be as balanced as possible when the game starts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see everyone have the same pool size, and the cost of the abilities can be reduced with specialization. If you allow people to increase the size of their resource pool it allows for one skill tree with a huge benefit, and it becomes a 'must have' skill, and one thing you don't want in a skill tree system is 'must have' skills.
Those are 2 very good suggestions. So obviously a small thing like this has a big, big balance effect.
It's reflecting the Pathfinder RP game: How does it work in that: Action points per turn also? Are those always constant in that version?
Just had a browse for comparison:
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions, and free actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With more advanced training and merit badges you unlock new moves that give you more bang for your stamina point.
I would expect most of these -and especially the more powerful ones- to be circumstantial (such as weapon-dependent moves, counter-moves etc).
I do not see any "get an extra point of stamina" ability, as that would be a huge boost for every possible build and thus a classic 'must-have'. A master swordsman could well get extra sword attacks for the same stamina, but not extra spells.
I believe GW actively will balance risk and reward so that a abilities you can always use will be less powerful and those that require significant setup will be more powerful, for example finishing moves in 'attack chains' (1st attack puts a 2sec debuff on target, 2nd attack only works on targets with that debuff).
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
It is worth pointing out with some exception that there are other parts to it that do effect how much one can do in a round in P&P. (Note to PF and D&D players, I am intentionally dumbing down my explanation and avoiding terms that make sense to P&P gamers, but may confuse someone who has not played tabletop games).
Someone with a decent amount of levels in a heavy mellee combat oriented class (Or someone with many levels in a non-mellee oriented class), can use a full round action to make multiple mellee strikes in a round. IE a level 6 fighter, paladin or ranger, can make 2 attacks in a turn, assuming he does nothing even moderately strenuous that round (he cannot move more than 5 feet during that round if he wishes to do a full round attack, while if he were doing a single attack he could move up to 30'), at level 11th that fighter could attack 3 times, 16th up to 4, (it's also worth pointing out that the extra attacks have a significantly lower chance to hit. As well someone with 2 weapon fighting can get an extra attack on top of that (IE 2 levels 1-5, 3 6-10, 4 11-15 etc...)
Some classes get those bonuses slower, rogues, clerics, druids etc... gain their 2nd attack at 8th, 3rd at 15th, and no 4th (unless multiclassing with a class that gains it faster), pure spellcasters barely gain it at all, gaining a 2nd melee attack at 12th, and no third.
Doing more than one attack almost always requires a full round action (meaning you absolutely have to be pretty close to your opponent at the start of the round, otherwise you can only make 1 attack in that round).
Now this isn't to say this is going to have anything at all to do with pathfinder online's mechanics. This is more or less a simplified explanation of the tabletop mechanics, that could resemble, or could be completely different from PFO's mechanics. I would say completely different is a high possibility due to the difference in goals (P&P wanted your damage to rapidly skyrocket with level, PFO wants the difference between vets and beginners to be small enough that low levels actually have at least some possibility of beating a significantly higher level opponent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@randomwalker: That's what I was beginning to consider after reading about "types of action", so it's much more qualitative and context-dependent to gaining more from your pool of pts than adding a bigger pool to draw from. I think this is sound way for stamina to be influenced by skills. :)
@Onishi: Have not played DnD (or Mordheim) for a while, but those lines of thinking are familiar in a dusty sort of way! That helps with the bigger picture of how levels might influence "stamina" system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valkenr & Avena:
I think that makes a lot of sense: that leaves time unchanged, but rather what we can do in that chunk of time depends on our archetype features. I would really dig it if the tactical aspect of action types translates into PFO. In all the games I've played you are pretty much mashing buttons around a cool-down with no thought about tradeoffs for what you can do else/next.
For example, the Pathfinder Summoner class can use Lifelink as a free action (at any time really) to share HP with their eidolon to keep it up. Doing this, core to the class, doesn't limit any other moves you can make. Whereas casting Summon Monster is a standard action, and would in this model deplete much of your action range for that round.
I think that adds a huge dimension to combat by making choices meaningful. Very cool :)
I would also dig if 5 foot/full moves were just in the game, and you learned your move limits through use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would also dig if 5 foot/full moves were just in the game, and you learned your move limits through use.
I noticed there is commentary on "movement" in the above link and wondered if there will be any manifestation in this direction. Possibly connection range of attacks might alter the cost of points for skills initiated is one direction; though it could be very complicated to implement.
Another, different consideration for movement, if there are "unusual movement types" that make use of stamina points eg x2 sprint/accelerate speed or a leap/jump?
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Goblin Squad Member
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One good way to get rid of button mashing is to allow an attack queue, like SWG. It also levels the playing field between the less and more dexterous users.
I would at least like to see a system similar to CoH, where if you click on an ability on cooldown, a ring appears, and once the ability is refreshed it activates it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One good way to get rid of button mashing is to allow an attack queue, like SWG. It also levels the playing field between the less and more dexterous users.
I would at least like to see a system similar to CoH, where if you click on an ability on cooldown, a ring appears, and once the ability is refreshed it activates it.
If queuing of attacks were possible it would be awesome if we could make our own combo’s (click one button and it executes a series of predefined attacks), which is another way for less dextrous people to not be disadvantaged.
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Don't forget Haste and Slow. Very usefull spells that in this system would essentially add points to the pool.
Might indeed be seen as a must have skill, except the cost to obtain it is significant, better to let the caster learn it and cast on the fighter rather then everyone trying to learn it.
I normally stay away from queues, but sticking with the 6 sec format like this and a Queue fits.
I don't want to see it have any effect on movement however, to jarring even on semi-turned based games, instead adjust the speed of players so they can move only that distance in 6 seconds (difficult terrain can slow down anyone passing through and such).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way SWG works(ed), is every combat tick the next ability in the queue is triggered, if you are not in range, or don't have line of sight the ability 'fails' but you don't spend any resources. You are free to move around while things are happening, though there are penalties associated with moving and attacking at the same time.
SWG's combat system was pretty solid, it was the 1000 mind fire pistols that ruined things. The balance between health action and mind, made mind the most important stat to attack, since it was almost always the lowest, making the professions that can attack the mind more valuable. And instead of normalizing the 3 bars into equality, SOE made the horrible decision to do the Combat Upgrade(CU) and ruined a good system to match other games single health bar system. The ability to kill someone by targeting one of three aspects of their biology was a great idea, and something I would like to see in PFO.
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Ability Damage!
Wait, PF already has that.
As far as going beyond what PF already has in terms of types of damage and stuff I don't want to see anymore, not because I think the system is bad or horrible (sounds awesome actually) but because it completely changes the flavor. Do that sort of thing when making a completely new setting with the freedom to change and set abilities and their fluff without having to worry about an established source material.
If they change the HP from straight HP, then they should use wounds/vitality or mabinogi's HP/wounds. Both would require only minimal or no change in the flavor or use of any other abilities that everyone who plays PF, expects to see and would be familier with.
I don't want to see abilities that we all know and expect to to work one way, and suddenly find that it's not even close to what was expected. (I expect minor tweaks but restoration should heal the same conditions both online and at the table. Can't make an ability work, remove it and replace with something similar but uniquely named for online so there is no overlap and confusion with tabletop)
If you're gonna make those kinds of expansive changes that people have to relearn what every spell does then they should just make a new fluff base, otherwise we are gonna end up with arguements at the table only to realize "Oh, wait that's not Pathfinder that's Pathfinder Online. Oops."