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(How) Can one make a "Clone" that isn't inert?


Advice


Okay, the Clone spell supplied with the Rule-set is quite useful, but it doesn't really do the one thing we would all want it to do...

Start a Clone War!

Now, I'm not saying that's a good idea; but the question remains, how does one Duplicate an existing character? Is there a rule somewhere that would make that possible? Or would that be too broken?

I'm asking, cause in a campaign where Time-Paradox Duplicates are way too common; it would be nice to have a duplicate that someone made that is just a simple Genetic clone for once, and not some "Future you coming back to save the day!"

I tried Homebrewing something up; but my version sounds like its horribly broken.

Also, is there anything for creating a Chimera of two Races for use as the clone? Cause that's the original idea I had; a test tube grown mix up of a couple of characters that inherited some of each of their memories (And skills).

P.S. I am aware of simulacrum, I just find it useless in this situation as it doesn't gain levels.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Animate Objects.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Animate Objects.

Okay, Four issues there... I assume. All of which I can (and probably will) Ignore because it sounds okay, but for the Rule Lawyers out there, I have to mention it.

1- That would leave the Clones as constructs. Not to mention, by Raw they would be unintelligent.

2- To Make them Intelligent, One may have to give them the "Robot" Subtype. Which would have dubious Logic in the first place considering they are organic.

3- Constructs can't normally be Raised or Resurrected. I usually take a House Rule option but if a situation pops up where nobody accepts that logic, it may become a problem.

4- (Least important) They probably won't carry over the Levels of the Characters they are based off (Unless one accepts a Full Personality build using "Programmed Amnesia" from a character that hold's the original's memories as an explanation.)

Yeah, it works, but it makes it seem strange rule wise.

Of course, I could play on that and play it up; having the "imperfect" clones made this way be fitted with all the Kinds of upgrades Reserved for constructs.

-But still, if anyone has a suggestion that doesn't make the simultaneously make the rule lawyers, Lore Keepers, and the others all flip the table... Now would be a good time to mention it.

...otherwise, Robo-Clones it is.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would allow an active clone (as per the clone spell, but simultaneously active) with a wish spell, but it would be a GM-controlled NPC.


Ravingdork wrote:
I would allow an active clone (as per the clone spell, but simultaneously active) with a wish spell, but it would be a GM-controlled NPC.

-Pass, it feels like a cop out. It's a magical "fix everything" spell when the GM allows it, and if one buys enough scrolls of it, it kinda defeats any and all conflict... Ever.

...And when the GM doesn't want it to be that way, he can just twist the wording and Everything is broken again.

As such, I want to be sure I've tried every option before using Wish; so as to avoid both the Deus Ex Machina Problem, and the Diabolus Ex Machina Problem.


Polymorph Any Object may fit the bill. Using the table, you can do:

Mindless Clone to Thinking Human

Same Kingdom (+5)

Same Class (+2)

Same Size (+2)

That's enough to make it permanent. It's like a more complicated version of "Marionette to Human" option, only the clone and you are much more related.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BlueStorm wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I would allow an active clone (as per the clone spell, but simultaneously active) with a wish spell, but it would be a GM-controlled NPC.

-Pass, it feels like a cop out. It's a magical "fix everything" spell when the GM allows it, and if one buys enough scrolls of it, it kinda defeats any and all conflict... Ever.

...And when the GM doesn't want it to be that way, he can just twist the wording and Everything is broken again.

As such, I want to be sure I've tried every option before using Wish; so as to avoid both the Deus Ex Machina Problem, and the Diabolus Ex Machina Problem.

Then make a unique cloning spell. I would not make it less than 9th-level and it would have an expensive material component. At least then you can clearly state what it does and does not do without being readily screwed by the GM.


Put a soul in the clone (by breaking the gem used for a Soul Bind spell by example).


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Beast-Bonded Witch with the Clone spell.

Nice.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
BlueStorm wrote:

Okay, the Clone spell supplied with the Rule-set is quite useful, but it doesn't really do the one thing we would all want it to do...

Start a Clone War!

Who's the We, Paleface?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
I would allow an active clone (as per the clone spell, but simultaneously active) with a wish spell, but it would be a GM-controlled NPC.

I'd allow the same, but it would run by the rules for the First Edition AD&D spell. :)

Scarab Sages

It does not matter how many bodies you create, you still have only one soul.

You might be able to use a wish to split your soul. It also might not be a good idea.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Simulacrum?


Become a Lich, and turn your Clone into your Phylactery.

Take a leaf out of Harry Potter, and use Wish to split your soul to have multiple Phylacteries with multiple Clones.

Sounds like a great idea for a Campaign, actually. Hmm......

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I wonder if anyone understood what I meant when I made the reference to the original Gygax supplied Clone spell.


LazarX wrote:
I wonder if anyone understood what I meant when I made the reference to the original Gygax supplied Clone spell.

Of course. The clone would go psycho and become obsessed with killing the original.


Simple solution is, of course, Simulacrum. GM fiat, but in theory one might work out metamagic feats to create improved Simulacra, adding templates, HD, and so on to make them more "you".

A Mirror of Opposition creates an exact duplicate (with the caveat, alas, that the duplicate hates the original). I suppose one could generate copies of oneself with a Mirror of Opposition set up in a bar-type forcecage, and then cast Dominate Person on them as they emerge from the Mirror (and maybe Suffocation on those which save versus Domination, etc.) If you kept the duplicates pretty well Charmed, Dominated, Geased, etc. it can work, though it's managerially complex.

If you can find ways to duplicate your soul, Magic Jar is an option. Nothing is quite coming to mind, though, at least in terms of RAW. I'm sure there's *something* lurking in the depths of the Astral Plane which can do this, though :)

Finally, there's always the "Coppelia" route: constructs (maybe a version of soulbound doll) which are indistinguishable from you, except for a certain creepy "uncanny valley" effect (detectable with Sense Motive, perhaps?) - this is how my high-level Wizard attends boring parties/protects himself from assassination... he just sends doll-versions of himself (through which he can perceive, of course)!


There are stories in the Forgotten Realms about Manshoon, the founder of the Zhentarim. He creates a dozen clones and three of them live simultaneously. Manshoon is/was a very epic spellcaster .. 20th level PCs are nothing compared to him.

So i think it should be possible to create a perfect clone but not for PCs. I should be some kind of epic quest, an artifact is needed or a god intervenes and splits someone into two. In every way it is an exception, nothing common and nearly an impossible task.

Creating a fake clone is something other. A perfect clone has class levels, skills etc from the original. A fake clone only looks like the original and maybe thinks he is the original.
Use some polymorph spells (for the appearance) and some mind changing spells (like a homemade version of modify memory) to create a fake clone from someone .. a bad lucky guy that comes down the street.


I'd say Mirror of Opposition is the only truly viable option for what you want without houserules. Ideally get two, and use the second mirroron your duplicate from the first. Then find a way to imprison your first duplicate without killing it, or allowing the second duplicate to discover its location, etc. Bust out your diplomancy and convince the duplicate to aide you in exchange for revealing the location of its foe, or even that it should drop its quest and simply team up with you.

Of course there's a lot of DM interpretation required even here, and the question is why is the duplicate mtoivated to kill its originator? If its a simply unavoidable magical compulsion thats fine, but if it must destroy all copies in a Highlander stlye, "there can only be one," deally then this plan would not really work. Essentially it should work if it would only attack the duplicate it was copied from, but not if it would attack you to.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
I wonder if anyone understood what I meant when I made the reference to the original Gygax supplied Clone spell.

Yes.

The spell has also been greatly altered since then.


David Haller wrote:
A Mirror of Opposition creates an exact duplicate (with the caveat, alas, that the duplicate hates the original). I suppose one could generate copies of oneself with a Mirror of Opposition set up in a bar-type forcecage, and then cast Dominate Person on them as they emerge from the Mirror (and maybe Suffocation on those which save versus Domination, etc.) If you kept the duplicates pretty well Charmed, Dominated, Geased, etc. it can work, though it's managerially complex

Use this idea, but intentionally create a cursed item called Helm of Opposite Alignment. Slap it on their head, now they're friendly again. Downside is, you have to make a new helmet for each clone.


Okay, so we've got:
-Robo-Clones
-Polymorphed into Life Clones
-Mirror Clones

...

I feel like there's one I'm missing.

Maybe some kind of Inteligent undead Solution could work?

I mean, a Vampire Clone? Could that work?


Artanthos wrote:

It does not matter how many bodies you create, you still have only one soul.

You might be able to use a wish to split your soul. It also might not be a good idea.

Murder.


In theory... a clone made from a body temporarily polymorphed into something else (let's say a gorilla) might be of the animal type. That would mean you could Awaken it and use Modify Memory to alter the last five minutes of its memories (which would be all of them). This would yield an intelligent minion with its own soul, that thinks its you (and could be made to look like you by various magical means), may well be more physically powerful than you... and into whose body your own soul would migrate if you died. Nothing in particular that would stop you from doing in more than once, so there you have an army of ape-clones.


I think the big issue from a rules-perspective would be: are these "clones" versions of you whom you actually control directly? or are they multiples of "you" whom you simply trust to serve you and/or further your agenda? (not necessarily a safe assumption, especially as time passes!)

If the former, there's a whole school of magic - enchantment - which pretty well covers it.

If the latter, it's really a matter of necromancy (with clones and magic jars and the like being bandied about), so some kind of undead option seems reasonable. Being creative - and assuming one can research novel spells for this - one might imagine a more powerful version of the 4th level Shadow Projection spell - let's call it "Corporeal Projection" - with which a caster can send forth duplicates of himself which have some manner of self-determination (or not): how would these be "used"? is it a move action? standard? swift? Controlling very many might be problematic.

It sounds like what you really want is a Matrix 2, Agent Smith-style cloning, which, I think it's safe to say, really isn't doable with existing PFS rules/spells/etc.

Assuming we're talking about a powerful caster (always the sourcepoint for creative shenanigans!), I think what you want is to craft - or have crafted - a very powerful item (maybe it will come to be regarded as an artifact) which allows you to "inhabit" clones to do your bidding. Some kind of powerful necromantic chair (no, throne!) in your stronghold, from which you can commune with, scry, and act through clones which you have strategically placed throughout the world. These clones may not even *know* they are clones - perhaps you've installed captured souls in them as "standby" mode - and they go about their lives as merchant, guards, even adventurers... until you need to use them (perhaps an enemy is in their city, or you need to consult a rare tome in a library there, or you just need to personally visit the Duke, or whatever), at which point they merely "black out". They don't even recall their service to you (Modify Memory!), though they may be fatigued the next day.

Naturally, they are still *clones*, so should you happen to die nearby... you can displace their soul and assume the new body, per the conventional use of Clone ;)

Essentially, Clone but with the actual clones being more useful than their typical Gentle Reposed condition.

One (slightly creepy) idea :)


David Haller wrote:

I think the big issue from a rules-perspective would be: are these "clones" versions of you whom you actually control directly? or are they multiples of "you" whom you simply trust to serve you and/or further your agenda? (not necessarily a safe assumption, especially as time passes!)

If the former, there's a whole school of magic - enchantment - which pretty well covers it.

If the latter, it's really a matter of necromancy (with clones and magic jars and the like being bandied about), so some kind of undead option seems reasonable. Being creative - and assuming one can research novel spells for this - one might imagine a more powerful version of the 4th level Shadow Projection spell - let's call it "Corporeal Projection" - with which a caster can send forth duplicates of himself which have some manner of self-determination (or not): how would these be "used"? is it a move action? standard? swift? Controlling very many might be problematic.

It sounds like what you really want is a Matrix 2, Agent Smith-style cloning, which, I think it's safe to say, really isn't doable with existing PFS rules/spells/etc.

Assuming we're talking about a powerful caster (always the sourcepoint for creative shenanigans!), I think what you want is to craft - or have crafted - a very powerful item (maybe it will come to be regarded as an artifact) which allows you to "inhabit" clones to do your bidding. Some kind of powerful necromantic chair (no, throne!) in your stronghold, from which you can commune with, scry, and act through clones which you have strategically placed throughout the world. These clones may not even *know* they are clones - perhaps you've installed captured souls in them as "standby" mode - and they go about their lives as merchant, guards, even adventurers... until you need to use them (perhaps an enemy is in their city, or you need to consult a rare tome in a library there, or you just need to personally visit the Duke, or whatever), at which point they merely "black out". They don't even recall their...

My idea is less "Agent Smith" and more like 7th Day (That Schwarzenegger Film) Where both the Origional and Clone Remember before a certain point and diverge.

Essentially it's like you said near the beginning. Free agents with a common form and shared memories before a certain point.

Afterwards they diverge in attitudes slightly, ending up with slightly different personalities. Albeit ones that extend out from the Origional one.

It's essentially a way to make a few more Free willed heroes in a pinch.

Contributor

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I believe that the following list of spells and magical powers, by the Pathfinder rules, should work:

Step 1. Cast Clone twice on an individual to get two back-up clones for when they die.

Step 2. Cast Polymorph Any Object on the individual to turn them into an ettin, which should be permanent if the subject is a human.

Step 3. Cast Polymorph Any Object to turn the ettin into conjoined twins.

Step 4. Surgically separate the conjoined twins. Will likely require a high Heal check plus fancy equipment and a lab, but still doable.

Step 5. Have a powerful witch come in to cast the Forced Reincarnation hex on each separated twin.

Step 6. Kill one twin by an awaiting clone. Watch the clone wake up.

Step 7. Repeat step 6 with the other twin and clone.

Note: Steps 1, 6 & 7 may be skipped by adding in two Wishes and/or Miracles, since those may be expressly used to return a target to its original form.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Eridan wrote:

There are stories in the Forgotten Realms about Manshoon, the founder of the Zhentarim. He creates a dozen clones and three of them live simultaneously. Manshoon is/was a very epic spellcaster .. 20th level PCs are nothing compared to him.

And what did those clones do? They started the Manshoon Wars as they did their best to do in each other. Eventually they became three different people with one of them continuing the "true" Manshoon identity and the others becoming something different, one of them, a vampire that I believe was infected before or right after he woke up.


Why do I have a feeling that this is turning into Paranoia?


Harark wrote:
Why do I have a feeling that this is turning into Paranoia?

...Wasn't My intent. But okay.

Still, doubt what I'll use this for will go that way. If only because All the clones are Chaotic Good Barbarians.

Think every single Action anime ever, and try imagining the hot blooded protagonist keeping his clone army under wraps for even 3 minutes.

-When he and his clone pals walk into town with Street gear and pummel the life outta some demon... With their bare hands!

They're...Not... Exactly... Stealthy... Gaiz.


RAW you can make intelligent undead out of the corpse. JJ has said it should fail (and I agree its a tad silly).


deuxhero wrote:

RAW you can make intelligent undead out of the corpse. JJ has said it should fail (and I agree its a tad silly).

Who said there was anything wrong with silly?

It makes for a lot of fun to think about.

And then there's the fact that three of the solutions come up with so far are "Plausible" in a logic sense. And each has their own blend of crazy.

Robo-Clones, for your high tech Fantasy!

Vampire Clones! For when your Gothic Fantasy just lost all credibility in a serrious sense, and just needs to lighten up!

Polymorphed Clone... Umm. I suppose this might help with explaining why some clones I need are Genetic Mash ups of two characters.

Anyways, this should be enough for what I need at the moment.


If you’re interested in evil clones you could also try using demonic possession. Just use planer binding to get a shadow demon and have it magic jar the clone. It can work with ghosts too if you can find one that's willing to cooperate.


This thread had a nice clone war: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n5ha?Wizard-Vs-Alchemist


One could look at undead plague, simulacrums or heres a curveball.

A 3.5 book named Lost Empires of Faerun has Deepspawn (page 166). They can eat someone and spit out "clones" of them.

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