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Combining Prestige and GP to get an Item


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Andoran **

At level 1 could I spend 2 prestige and 90gp to get a Darkleaf Cloth Hide Shirt?

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I'm afraid not. Two PP can be spent to get an item worth 750 gp or less. Not part of an item.

Grand Lodge ****

Craig Bertuglia wrote:
At level 1 could I spend 2 prestige and 90gp to get a Darkleaf Cloth Hide Shirt?

Hide shirts are not PFS legal.

Andoran **

LOL, So other than concept and the specific item both being a no go, I should have no problem!

Grand Lodge ****

Check out the Dragonhide breastplate and a wand of Longstrider. ;)

Andoran *****

PP or prestige points are not exchangeable currency like gold or gems (or money (dollars, pounds, lira, et. al.) in the real world). Rather it is an abstract ablative statistic used to represent the fame and political or social favors you’ve accrued due to being a darned good pathfinder (and/or faction member).

So don’t look at it like ever 2 PP is worth 750gp. It’s just that 2 PP allows you to be “gifted” a single item or service up to 750gp.

Shadow Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
sveden wrote:
Hide shirts are not PFS legal.
Good catch.

Actually, no. They are PFS legal.

Additional Resources wrote:


Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide

Equipment: all equipment on pages 12–13

*

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well, technically it _is_ legal--you just have to buy it from the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide instead of Rise of the Runelords (it didn't change at all)... I'm sure that one or the other of those is an oversight on the Additional Resources page, but for the moment...
Edit: Ninja'd by some guy in full plate!

Grand Lodge ****

Mike Bramnik wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
sveden wrote:
Hide shirts are not PFS legal.
Good catch.

Actually, no. They are PFS legal.

Additional Resources wrote:


Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide

Equipment: all equipment on pages 12–13

not correct info:
Big difference. One is light armor one is medium armor. OP was asking about light armor hide shirts.

/edit Or not. Hmm... me no understand.

Grand Lodge ****

Hide shirts no longer legal in any form as of the October 2012 Additional Resources update.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

sveden wrote:
Hide shirts no longer legal in any form as of the October 2012 Additional Resources update.

Unless you have the newest version apparently...

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends

Equipment: All equipment on pages 14–15 are legal for play except Varisian idol.
Varasia, Birthplace of Legends - Pg 14 wrote:


Made from animal hide
and giant lizard scales over
a shirt of interwoven cords,
these chest and shoulder
coverings protect Shoanti
riders without restricting
their mobility. The wearer
of a hide shirt can make a DC 15 Strength check as a standard
action. If he succeeds, the armor gains the broken condition
and drops to the ground rather than requiring the usual
1 minute it would take to remove it. The armor must be
repaired as though it had taken 8 points of damage before
it can be used again; a broken hide shirt grants no bonus to
Armor Class.

Light Armor
Hide Shirt 20 gp +3 +4 –1 15% 30 ft. 20 ft. 18 lbs.

Grand Lodge ****

Oh for !W#$!@#$ sake.

At least its a +3.

*

Clearly these are hide-ing from getting de-listed!

Grand Lodge ***

I did have a player ask if he could spend 2PP for masterwork armor..then LATER buy up a few pluses.

That would be legal right? He just can't sell it off later.

Sczarni ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman aka Coraith

so long as the cost of the armor and the cost to masterwork combined are less than 750g

Grand Lodge ***

They do. And in one case they bought normal armor then spent pp for masterwork Transformation with their next prestige gain.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Thomas Graham wrote:
They do. And in one case they bought normal armor then spent pp for masterwork Transformation with their next prestige gain.

How did they spend PP for masterwork transformation? It's not one of the spells on table 5-4 of the GtPFSOP.

(Unless it's made available through another source that I'm not aware of, of course)

EDIT: Thinking about it, is an oil of masterwork transformation a valid item for purchase? I assume it would be 600gp, but this is certainly not my area of expertise...

Grand Lodge ***

Paz wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:
They do. And in one case they bought normal armor then spent pp for masterwork Transformation with their next prestige gain.

How did they spend PP for masterwork transformation? It's not one of the spells on table 5-4 of the GtPFSOP.

(Unless it's made available through another source that I'm not aware of, of course)

EDIT: Thinking about it, is an oil of masterwork transformation a valid item for purchase? I assume it would be 600gp, but this is certainly not my area of expertise...

They bought a scroll of it, then gave it to another player I believe. I might be mistake about the use of PP

*

Hide shirt is also legal through the adventurers armory. It is probably the most repeated armor I have seen. I think the reason for the banning of it from some sources is that it has some variation among those sources and they want only one type of hide shirt in play.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Thomas Graham wrote:
They bought a scroll of it, then gave it to another player I believe. I might be mistake about the use of PP

Doing this would be legal with prestige. It's the same as spending 2 prestige on a scroll of haste with 2 charges and having someone else buff you with it.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Lab_Rat wrote:
Hide shirt is also legal through the adventurers armory. It is probably the most repeated armor I have seen. I think the reason for the banning of it from some sources is that it has some variation among those sources and they want only one type of hide shirt in play.

I don't see Hide Shirt in Adventurers Armory. I think Varisia is the only place it's legal from. Though I'm not sure if it's meant to be legal.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yes, the Hide Shirt from the Varisia book is legal. The version from the two AP players Guides are not legal.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Additional Reources has been updated to reflect the Hide Shirt version in both RotRL and CotCT players Guide are not a legal choice, while making the Hide Shirt found in the Varisia book a legal option.

*

Was there a difference that caused the CotCT Hide shirt to be made illegal? I only ask because the CotCT players guide was freely available to all and so opened up hide shirt to anyone wanting one (Very good choice for a low lvl druid). Now it's a closed item that requires a book purchase.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Lab_Rat wrote:
Was there a difference that caused the CotCT Hide shirt to be made illegal? I only ask because the CotCT players guide was freely available to all and so opened up hide shirt to anyone wanting one (Very good choice for a low lvl druid). Now it's a closed item that requires a book purchase.

The stats were revisited and adjusted from what they originally were when first created to what they should have been all along.

CotCT version:

Cost: 90 GP
Armor Bonus: +4
Max Dex Bonus: +4
Armor check penalty: -3
Arcane spell failure chance: 20%
Weight: 25 lbs.

Varisia version:

Cost: 20 GP
Armor Bonus: +3
Max Dex Bonus: +4
Armor check penalty: -1
Arcane spell failure chance: 15%
Weight: 18 lbs.

The changes were significant enough we needed to decide which is used and we went with the newer version. If the argument is because it was a very good choice for low level Druids, it is better now since you are saving 70 gp, while only losing a +1 to armor bonus.


Michael Brock wrote:


If the argument is because it was a very good choice for low level Druids, it is better now since you are saving 70 gp, while only losing a +1 to armor bonus.

Pardon my disagreement, but AC is far harder to acquire than gold, and it will cost exponentially more than 70 gold to get that 1 AC back, especially for classes like the druid that are already very limited for armor choices. There is nothing you can buy for that 70 gold at level 1 that will be worth more than that 1 AC.

And that armor remained a good choice for any level druid, not just low. Now if Darkleaf Cloth or Eel Hide changed the armor type to 1 step lighter like Mithral, then at least druids would have reasonable options with the medium Hide Armor once their wealth progressed beyond starting wealth.

Andoran *****

Lythe Featherblade wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:


If the argument is because it was a very good choice for low level Druids, it is better now since you are saving 70 gp, while only losing a +1 to armor bonus.

Pardon my disagreement, but AC is far harder to acquire than gold, and it will cost exponentially more than 70 gold to get that 1 AC back, especially for classes like the druid that are already very limited for armor choices. There is nothing you can buy for 70 gold at level 1 that will be worth more than that 1 AC.

And that armor remained a good choice for any level druid, not just low. Now if Darkleaf Cloth changed the armor type to 1 step lighter like Mithral, then at least druids would have reasonable options with the medium Hide Armor once their wealth progressed beyond starting wealth.

Be that as it may, the Varisia book is the most recent (and a Pathfinder book, rather than a 3.5 one to boot) material the armor showed up in. So precedent says that the most recent rules are the ones used.

All choices have pros and cons. In this case, you have to choose if the Varisia version of Hide Shirt is worth it or not.


I have no problem with their authority and ability to change things. They can change the game as they wish and balance as they wish, but spinning it to let us believe it is a better choice when it's not just insults our intelligence.

Andoran *****

Lythe Featherblade wrote:

I have no problem with their authority and ability to change things. They can change the game as they wish and balance as they wish, but spinning it to let us believe it is a better choice when it's not just insults our intelligence.

As everyone does, you have the option to be insulted, or not.

Mike was making a good faith comment that he believed to be true.

This isn't some conspiracy against AC or Hide Shirts. None of the Pathfinder developers or Pathfinder Society staff have the time, nor inclination to think or act on such a clandestine level.

If you choose to be insulted by his clarification, that's on you.

Not on Mike.


Andrew Christian wrote:


Mike was making a good faith comment that he believed to be true.

You don't need to defend him, and I highly doubt you are party to his thought processes to make that comment.

Quote:


This isn't some conspiracy against AC or Hide Shirts. None of the Pathfinder developers or Pathfinder Society staff have the time, nor inclination to think or act on such a clandestine level.

Now where did that come from?

People were unhappy with the change. Mike explained the changes, that is all good. Then with his last sentence he made it sound like a beneficial change to put a positive spin on it. But getting less for less still means you get less and saying it is better does not make it true.

I may not like the change itself but I'm not asking it to get reversed. I know that's not how games like this work. I did make a positive suggestion that I feel is balanced in response to the change, knowing full well the people who would make this change may never see my suggestion or may have already considered and dismissed it.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Lythe Featherblade wrote:
People were unhappy with the change. Mike explained the changes, that is all good. Then with his last sentence he made it sound like a beneficial change to put a positive spin on it. But getting less for less still means you get less and saying it is better does not make it true.

You give up a +1 AC, but get reduced cost, 2 less ACP, and 7 less pounds, and unlike the RotRL version it's light armor and not medium armor so you have an increased speed wearing it as well [Though the CotCT version was light]. I think it is more than fair to say the new version is an improved version in a few ways.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jeffrey Fox wrote:
Lythe Featherblade wrote:
People were unhappy with the change. Mike explained the changes, that is all good. Then with his last sentence he made it sound like a beneficial change to put a positive spin on it. But getting less for less still means you get less and saying it is better does not make it true.
You give up a +1 AC, but get reduced cost, 2 less ACP, and 7 less pounds, and unlike the RotRL version it's light armor and not medium armor so you have an increased speed wearing it as well [Though the CotCT version was light]. I think it is more than fair to say the new version is an improved version in a few ways.

This.

Lythe, you are completely ignoring how significant going from -3 ACP to -1 ACP is. It is not just a 1 point loss to AC. And at 20 gp it is an awesome purchase for low level PCs.

And talking with Mike almost daily - sometimes in person at conventions, I believe Andrew has a fair grasp of Mike's thoughts on this occasion. Mike is not the type to "spin" things. It would be bad for the campaign, and Mike is all about the campaign.


Jeffrey Fox wrote:


You give up a +1 AC, but get reduced cost, 2 less ACP, and 7 less pounds, and unlike the RotRL version it's light armor and not medium armor so you have an increased speed wearing it as well [Though the CotCT version was light]. I think it is more than fair to say the new version is an improved version in a few ways.

So by your logic leather armor is even better, as it is 1 less ACP, half the price, and 3 lbs less than the hide shirt, at the mere cost of 1 more AC.

And as far as I knew the CotCT version was the pathfinder legal version, so speed wasn't an issue. I haven't found the time for PFS for a while though so I stopped even trying to keep the exact rules of what you can and can't have straight.

When I wear armor I wear it for protection first and other things second. ACP can be gotten around with special materials later for an achievable fixed cost, but that base AC drop can't be regained without switching armor (and losing movement).

Don Walker wrote:
Mike is not the type to "spin" things.
Michael Brock wrote:
If the argument is because it was a very good choice for low level Druids, it is better now since you are saving 70 gp, while only losing a +1 to armor bonus.

I don't know Mike, and am only going by what he said. If he had emphasized the ACP decrease he would have had a better argument, but he either failed to see or totally ignored what made this armor a good choice in the first place.

Andoran ***

@Lythe:
Dodge
Better Dex

Both of those changes require less than 70 gold pieces in expense.

One of the most common, really used, armor choices for Druids:
2 PP for a dragonhide breastplate

And the dragonhide breastplate is masterwork, and therefore requires no extra armor purchase, or spell casting expenses, to make it enchantable later.

To be totally honest at you:
In my experience, since masterworking was required to make armor magical, no PC, in my experience, has ever retained their originally purchased armor for very long.

If you really, really, really want to retain that 30' base movement speed, in light, Druid-compatible armor, the Hide Shirt is actually a terrific choice, given that a masterwork version gives an ACP of 0. No effect on your skills. For those vital Climb, Swim, Acrobatics or Escape Artist checks, there is nothing that can be better than that.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Lythe Featherblade wrote:
Jeffrey Fox wrote:


You give up a +1 AC, but get reduced cost, 2 less ACP, and 7 less pounds, and unlike the RotRL version it's light armor and not medium armor so you have an increased speed wearing it as well [Though the CotCT version was light]. I think it is more than fair to say the new version is an improved version in a few ways.

So by your logic leather armor is even better, as it is 1 less ACP, half the price, and 3 lbs less than the hide shirt, at the mere cost of 1 more AC.

And as far as I knew the CotCT version was the pathfinder legal version, so speed wasn't an issue. I haven't found the time for PFS for a while though so I stopped even trying to keep the exact rules of what you can and can't have straight.

When I wear armor I wear it for protection first and other things second. ACP can be gotten around with special materials later for an achievable fixed cost, but that base AC drop can't be regained without switching armor (and losing movement).

The CotCT Hide Shirt to Varisia Hide Shirt, isn't quite the same as comparing the Varisia Hide Shirt to leather.

The first you save 70 gold for a -2 ACP and a -1 AC plus weight savings.

The second you save 10 gold for a -1 AC and -1 ACP and +2 Max Dex plus weight savings.

But I would pick leather over a hide shirt for a more mobile character that needs not to have an ACP at low levels. Or for a character that is usually not in melee. And yes you can buy ACP reduction many ways, and it will always cost more than 70 gold [Unless using a trait slot].

It's not spin though to think the difference aren't improvements because not every player thinks like you do that AC bonus is the only thing that matters.


kinevon:

you missed the point completely.

This whole back and forth isn't about the change, it's about the spin on the change.

Then to reply to your suggestions, in a game with finite resources decreasing something can't be made up another way without giving up something else. Unless you're suggesting I can buy feats or stats for less than 70 gold. Assuming my character doesn't have those already. I don't think PFS allows that, and my DM for local games definitely doesn't either.

To be totally honest with you I agree about not keeping starting armor for long, and once again you missed the point. And you just made another point decreasing how good the new shirt is.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Lythe Featherblade wrote:

kinevon:

you missed the point completely.

This whole back and forth isn't about the change, it's about the spin on the change.

It's not really spin. Mike plays the game just like anyone else, and he may fully believe that the 70 gold piece price reduction is worth the +1 decrease. And I'm not sure he's wrong on that either. 70 gold is almost half a characters starting wealth in PFS and for an item that will last only a few scenarios it's a hefty price.

And it's not like he glossed over the other changes, he posted the stat block back to back.

Not only that but the changes to the item aren't even his choice, that was done by the game line writers and developers.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

@Lythe, what you see as "Spin" I see as Mike's personal opinion. You have yours, he has his. Just because he's in a position of authority, doesn't mean his is any better than yours. You each have your opinion, so why exactly are people arguing about it? Some people like to see the silver lining, some don't.

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