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Am I Allowed To Have An Imp Familiar (in PFS)?


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Grand Lodge ****

I'm guessing, yes, but I'd hate to show up to a table with a brand new imp at level 7 and be told no.

Also, if I'm allowed to have one, what alignment is the imp? Is it still evil?


i don't see why not.
they try to turn you evil, but they don't immediately succeed upon calling them.
not much different than working with many of the borderline evil factions.
i don't believe there's any rules against evil familiars...
they are a part of the (allowed) improved familiar feat, after all.
if you're extremely just shutting down all of it's evil tendencies, i may expect it to not be as helpful though.

Andoran ***

Yes, imps are legal as Improved Familiars.

Imps remain lawful evil.

In order to have an Imp as a familiar, just like any of the Improved Familiars, you need to be within one step of its alignment, in both axises.

So, PFS legal alignments for having an Imp familiar:
LN, NN

Also remember that there may be some tables where you might no longer be able to easily play your PC with an Imp familiar.

Paladins in general, with specific emphasis on Oath against Devils Paladins. Also some Clerics of certain deities may not play well with Imps.


I would say if you suspect the Imp will be a problem, ask it to use it's Polymorph abilities.

Grand Lodge ****

Quandary wrote:
I would say if you suspect the Imp will be a problem, ask it to use it's Polymorph abilities.

Or just stay invisible. Probably better for when it buffs me and my allies with its arsenal of wands anyway. :)

The idea looks good so far. I've been tossing around the idea of rolling up an Infernal Binder, or something similar, and the idea of an unruly imp who is lawfully bound to obey me makes me giggle. I'll probably not be joining the Silver Crusade. Probably.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
kinevon wrote:

Yes, imps are legal as Improved Familiars.

Imps remain lawful evil.

In order to have an Imp as a familiar, just like any of the Improved Familiars, you need to be within one step of its alignment, in both axises.

So, PFS legal alignments for having an Imp familiar:
LN, NN

Also remember that there may be some tables where you might no longer be able to easily play your PC with an Imp familiar.

Paladins in general, with specific emphasis on Oath against Devils Paladins. Also some Clerics of certain deities may not play well with Imps.

True Neutral is TWO steps away from Lawful Evil. so the only PFS allowed alignment would be Lawful Neutral for this purpose.

Andoran **** Venture-Captain, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

No, Kinevon is correct:

Improved Familiar wrote:
You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

(emphasis mine)

True neutral can actually have any familiar at all, since it is one step away on each axis from every alignment.

Andoran ***

The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

No, Kinevon is correct:

Improved Familiar wrote:
You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

(emphasis mine)

True neutral can actually have any familiar at all, since it is one step away on each axis from every alignment.

Yep. I had pulled up the feat to read as I typed my answer, just didn't want to go through the hassle of quoting it, so I abstracted.

The Great Rinaldo is mostly correct about true neutral, although I seem to recall that there is one familiar that has its own rules, so that it doesn't allow as much alignment leeway, except when granted through a boon from one of the scenarios.

***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Indianapolis aka Red-Assassin

The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

No, Kinevon is correct:

Improved Familiar wrote:
You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

(emphasis mine)

True neutral can actually have any familiar at all, since it is one step away on each axis from every alignment.

Unless a special circumstance is used, diagonal alignment counts as 2 steps.

CRB first printing pg 166

*****

kinevon wrote:
The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

No, Kinevon is correct:

Improved Familiar wrote:
You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

(emphasis mine)

True neutral can actually have any familiar at all, since it is one step away on each axis from every alignment.

Yep. I had pulled up the feat to read as I typed my answer, just didn't want to go through the hassle of quoting it, so I abstracted.

The Great Rinaldo is mostly correct about true neutral, although I seem to recall that there is one familiar that has its own rules, so that it doesn't allow as much alignment leeway, except when granted through a boon from one of the scenarios.

Actually, many many familiars have their own rules and only allow masters of one particular alignment, including every outsider from Bestiary 2 forth. The fact that imps don't, when so many other things about the other outsider familiars is symmetrical, is likely an artifact of not thinking about those things back in Bestiary 1 and probably an oversight, but one that's been grandfathered in now.

Andoran ***

Chris Bonnet wrote:
The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

No, Kinevon is correct:

Improved Familiar wrote:
You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

(emphasis mine)

True neutral can actually have any familiar at all, since it is one step away on each axis from every alignment.

Unless a special circumstance is used, diagonal alignment counts as 2 steps.

CRB first printing pg 166

It is a special circumstance. It explicitly says one step on each axis in the feat.

It doesn't say "up to one step away", it says "up to one step away on each axis".

The way it says it is not as two steps away, since that would allow a CG PC to have an LG or CE improved familiar, but as one step on each axis, so that CG PC could have an improved familiar which is CG, CN, NG or NN.

Cheliax ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

I'm pretty sure diagonal still counts as two steps on the alignment axis.

Shadow Lodge ***

Todd Morgan wrote:
I'm pretty sure diagonal still counts as two steps on the alignment axis.

Yes. One on one axis, ONE on the other. One on each axis in other words.

****

Yeah, it is two total steps. There are two alignment axes and it can be up to one away on each. 1 + 1 = 2. :D

Don't think of it as a 3x3 grid, but two separate lines: law-neutral-chaos and good-neutral-evil.

If the character is at:
law-neutral-chaos and good-neutral-evil
then the familiar can be:
law-neutral-chaos and good-neutral-evil

Likewise a true neutral character could have a familiar of any alignment (barring other restrictions for the specific familiar of course).

Cheliax ****

It's worth noting that the Infernal Binder (yaaaay, Cheliax!) subschool of conjuration grants a free imp at level 7, but only Lawful Evil, Lawful Neutral, Neutral Evil, and True Neutral Wizards can use that school. That further supports what we already know to be the RAW.

Silver Crusade **

Or you could always go into the prestige class of a Diabolist which gets a imp familiar at the first level of it, and it can be attained by level 6. Here is the link http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/diabolist

*

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Yep. I had pulled up the feat to read as I typed my answer, just didn't want to go through the hassle of quoting it, so I abstracted.

The Great Rinaldo is mostly correct about true neutral, although I seem to recall that there is one familiar that has its own rules, so that it doesn't allow as much alignment leeway, except when granted through a boon from one of the scenarios.

Actually, many many familiars have their own rules and only allow masters of one particular alignment, including every outsider from Bestiary 2 forth. The fact that imps don't, when so many other things about the other outsider familiars is symmetrical, is likely an artifact of not thinking about those things back in Bestiary 1 and probably an oversight, but one that's been grandfathered in now.

If you're planning on taking an improved familiar, go read its description in the appropriate bestiary/the PRD. I don't know if it was "thought about" for Bestiary 1, but not every Bestiary 2/3 improved familiar has a single allowed alignment:

Dragon, Faerie: Bestiary 3: "with an alignment within 1 step of chaotic good"
Agathion, Silvanshee: Bestiary 2: "7th-level good spellcasters"
as compared to:
Azata, Lyrakien: Bestiary 2: "A chaotic good 7th-level spellcaster"

I believe Quasits and Imps (both Bestiary 1) differ from this for 2 reasons: 1) they're evil, so they would be restricted to NPC spellcasters or home games (non-PFS anyway) if you had to be CE/LE, and 2) it makes sense for them to serve non-evil spellcasters--look at their descriptions:

Bestiary 1 Quasits wrote:
"When a quasit's master dies, the quasit can attempt to follow the master's soul into the Great Beyond by making a DC 15 Will save. This functions as plane shift, but affects only the quasit and transports it into the Abyss and places its master's soul in the quasit's possession as a writhing larvae rather than using the evil master's soul to create new demonic life. In this manner, a quasit can use its newly captured soul to bargain with more powerful denizens of the lower planes, and perhaps secure a vile transformative “promotion” to a more powerful form of life in the process."
and
Bestiary 1 Imps wrote:
"In truth, though, an imp works to deliver souls to Hell, assuring that its master's soul—and as many collateral souls as possible—faces damnation upon death."

Cheliax ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dust Raven wrote:

I'm guessing, yes, but I'd hate to show up to a table with a brand new imp at level 7 and be told no.

Also, if I'm allowed to have one, what alignment is the imp? Is it still evil?

The real question is not can you have an imp, but is that big of a power boost okay in PFS?

Having an imp familiar is an insane increase in power for several spellcasters and can trivialize most encounters or scenarios. The secret is in this spell Familiar Melding and how powerful it makes you with certain improved familiars.
With an Imp familiar you suddenly have a full spellcaster with free invisibility at will, tiny size, permanent flying, DR 5/good silver, Immunity to fire & poison, at will shape change (beast shape 1), see in darkness (at 7-11 play this completely changes the game) and fast healing 2, Telepathy, Summon other devils and Poison.

A tiny, flying, invisible, spell casting, Hex throwing Witch who can't be killed during a scenario is kinda dangerous. Grab a couple scrolls of shrink object or secret chest and safely store your body nearby and you will safely tromp through a scenario unscathed.

It's just a demon body, who cares if it dies, it just costs a little cash to get another one.

I can't wait, I'm 2 scenarios away from getting my imp. This is gonna be funny.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Suliemann aziz Ammar wrote:
Dust Raven wrote:

I'm guessing, yes, but I'd hate to show up to a table with a brand new imp at level 7 and be told no.

Also, if I'm allowed to have one, what alignment is the imp? Is it still evil?

The real question is not can you have an imp, but is that big of a power boost okay in PFS?

Having an imp familiar is an insane increase in power for several spellcasters and can trivialize most encounters or scenarios. The secret is in this spell Familiar Melding and how powerful it makes you with certain improved familiars.
With an Imp familiar you suddenly have a full spellcaster with free invisibility at will, tiny size, permanent flying, DR 5/good silver, Immunity to fire & poison, at will shape change (beast shape 1), see in darkness (at 7-11 play this completely changes the game) and fast healing 2, Telepathy, Summon other devils and Poison.

A tiny, flying, invisible, spell casting, Hex throwing Witch who can't be killed during a scenario is kinda dangerous. Grab a couple scrolls of shrink object or secret chest and safely store your body nearby and you will safely tromp through a scenario unscathed.

It's just a demon body, who cares if it dies, it just costs a little cash to get another one.

I can't wait, I'm 2 scenarios away from getting my imp. This is gonna be funny.

Honestly the inevitable is even crazier, since you pretty much cannot be killed in 90% of scenarios due to its regeneration that pretty much only demons (of all PFS enemies) can bypass.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Suliemann aziz Ammar wrote:
Dust Raven wrote:

I'm guessing, yes, but I'd hate to show up to a table with a brand new imp at level 7 and be told no.

Also, if I'm allowed to have one, what alignment is the imp? Is it still evil?

The real question is not can you have an imp, but is that big of a power boost okay in PFS?

Having an imp familiar is an insane increase in power for several spellcasters and can trivialize most encounters or scenarios. The secret is in this spell Familiar Melding and how powerful it makes you with certain improved familiars.
With an Imp familiar you suddenly have a full spellcaster with free invisibility at will, tiny size, permanent flying, DR 5/good silver, Immunity to fire & poison, at will shape change (beast shape 1), see in darkness (at 7-11 play this completely changes the game) and fast healing 2, Telepathy, Summon other devils and Poison.

A tiny, flying, invisible, spell casting, Hex throwing Witch who can't be killed during a scenario is kinda dangerous. Grab a couple scrolls of shrink object or secret chest and safely store your body nearby and you will safely tromp through a scenario unscathed.

It's just a demon body, who cares if it dies, it just costs a little cash to get another one.

I can't wait, I'm 2 scenarios away from getting my imp. This is gonna be funny.

What people forget with tricks like this is that this leaves your true body totally vulnerable and tied to a medium range limit. You leave that limit, you DIE if the familliar body dies. IF your true body is ganked while you're outside it, then it's also curtains for you.

Andoran ***

You also ignore that the thing has fairly few hit points, it is NOT Regeneration but Fast Healing, at this level Invisibility is fairly well worthless, and that area effects that do things besides fire or poison are going to be fairly well in use. Ice Storm, Chain Lightning, Flame Strike (which does half Divine damage), Sorcerers with bloodlines who can substitute other types of energy, metamagic feats that substitute other types of energy.

Heck, at first level, it is possible for a PC to kill an Imp despite not having a weapon that can overcome that DR/Good or Silver. Greatsword? 2d6 +6 (Str * 1.5) +3 (PA * 1.5) = 2d6+9, average 16 points. One average hit, and the basic Imp is down to 5 hit points.

Not to mention that if your familiar attacks, the Invisibility ends, and it cannot go Invisible again until its next turn, since it takes a standard action to use that ability.

See in darkness? At 7th level you have Daylight, which neutralizes Deeper Darkness.

Tiny size? Sure, hard to hit, but negligible damage dealing ability of its own, and totally ganked against a grappling build. I betcha that Chung Po, an NPC from the Ruby Phoenix Tournament, would have no trouble taking down that imp when it becomes visible. Actually, since its AC will only be 21, that isn't that hard to hit at 7th level. Against opponents of an appropriate level for the party, any crit is likely to confirm, and it is around this point that weapon crit ranges significantly increase.

Flying at 7th level? Heh. So many ways to overcome that by then it isn't even funny. Having the imp able to fly barely equalizes how many opponents will also be flying or in hard to reach locations. And won't help much in constricted environments, like tombs with low ceilings...

Also, I am not 100% sure, but I would think that familiars, like summoned creatures, would lose any summoning/gating ability that they have. And it would only be one more CR2 creature. And Imps don't have any such ability, anyhow.

So, AC 21, 50% miss chance, half the spellcaster's low hit points, minimal DR, extremely vulnerable to combat maneuvers, becoming visible when it does any sort of attack type action, I don't think you are going to find it does that much breaking of anything.

Cheliax

The Diabolist prestige class specializes in having an imp as a familiar if that is something interesting to you.

Cheliax ***

kinevon wrote:

You also ignore that the thing has fairly few hit points, it is NOT Regeneration but Fast Healing, at this level Invisibility is fairly well worthless, and that area effects that do things besides fire or poison are going to be fairly well in use. Ice Storm, Chain Lightning, Flame Strike (which does half Divine damage), Sorcerers with bloodlines who can substitute other types of energy, metamagic feats that substitute other types of energy.

Heck, at first level, it is possible for a PC to kill an Imp despite not having a weapon that can overcome that DR/Good or Silver. Greatsword? 2d6 +6 (Str * 1.5) +3 (PA * 1.5) = 2d6+9, average 16 points. One average hit, and the basic Imp is down to 5 hit points.

Not to mention that if your familiar attacks, the Invisibility ends, and it cannot go Invisible again until its next turn, since it takes a standard action to use that ability.

See in darkness? At 7th level you have Daylight, which neutralizes Deeper Darkness.

Tiny size? Sure, hard to hit, but negligible damage dealing ability of its own, and totally ganked against a grappling build. I betcha that Chung Po, an NPC from the Ruby Phoenix Tournament, would have no trouble taking down that imp when it becomes visible. Actually, since its AC will only be 21, that isn't that hard to hit at 7th level. Against opponents of an appropriate level for the party, any crit is likely to confirm, and it is around this point that weapon crit ranges significantly increase.

Flying at 7th level? Heh. So many ways to overcome that by then it isn't even funny. Having the imp able to fly barely equalizes how many opponents will also be flying or in hard to reach locations. And won't help much in constricted environments, like tombs with low ceilings...

Also, I am not 100% sure, but I would think that familiars, like summoned creatures, would lose any summoning/gating ability that they have. And it would only be one more CR2 creature. And Imps don't have any such ability, anyhow.

So, AC 21, 50% miss chance, half...

First Daylight doesn't negate darkness it just returns you to normal conditions (which usually means dark or dim so you still can't see or everything gets concealment) and this saves you a spell slot.

DR Good or silver means 99% of the opponents in PFS don't have anything to get past it. 5 pts off every hit if it manages to hit you is extremely useful.

Improved Evasion (something else you get from this spell) halves or negates all the damage from the spells you listed. And with the immunities and resistances you can laugh off pretty much every direct damage spell out there. Cast resist energy: electricity when needed and just laugh at blasters.

Attacking is something God Wizards/Witches don't do so the odds of breaking invis is exactly zero unless we want to. AND if you decided to do that you're flying 50+ feet above/away so it's not going to get to do anything about it anyway.

Flying, NATURAL flying is different and there are very few ways to stop it and the number of flying opponents in PFS is woefully low and almost none of them can fly as fast (base 50') or as well (perfect Maneuverability) as you can now. This speed is the biggest advantage, no one can keep up with you if you decide to leave (only natural flyers can run when flying, magical flyers can only double move).

Familiars aren't summoned creatures, they are class features so that rule doesn't affect them.

Finally you are neglecting the biggest advantage here. You are a full caster and keep all the spells/magical abilities and gear you have. Take all of these advantages and ADD them to the standard spells/powers the wizard/witch has normally and you see a massive advantage.
Base ac of 17 with Mage armor and reduce person pushes you up to AC 30 and that's before gear (rings, amulets, armor). It's like taking a regular caster and giving them a free +11AC that stacks with everything they usually have.
Hit points aren't an issue since at your size, speed, AC and location hitting you is extremely hard and you laugh at AoE's and anything that calls for a reflex save or requires you to be of a specific type (outsiders are immune to a LOT of spells simply because of their type).

The combination of awesome devil abilities, potent arcane spell casting and wicked witch hexes makes this an extremely hard to kill character without ever reducing your effectiveness in battle.

@LazarX, that issue has already been explained, your body has either been turned into a paper like object and safely stored away (shrink Item), or put in a secret chest and sent to another plane. It's safe and worst case will be back in a week or two.

Cheliax ***

Requiems wrote:
The Diabolist prestige class specializes in having an imp as a familiar if that is something interesting to you.

The Diabolist doesn't give you an imp as a familiar, it gives you one as an animal companion. Different rules and doesn't work with this spell.

*****

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
@LazarX, that issue has already been explained, your body has either been turned into a paper like object and safely stored away (shrink Item), or put in a secret chest and sent to another plane. It's safe and worst case will be back in a week or two.

Well secret chest will make your body safe, but you still die if the familiar dies (due to being out of range, on the ethereal plane). Shrink item on your comatose body is sketchy at best, and I don't think almost any GM who looked up the spell descriptions would allow this (granted, some GMs might just take you at your word and let you get away with it, so expect major table variation), since there's pretty much no ground to stand on that your comatose body is a legal target for a spell that targets one object.

Silver Crusade **

If carrying the body is problem, just be a light weight small character, and stuff em into the backpack of a larger character.

Note: I do not necessarily support the madness that is an Imp Familiar for PFS. Especially when combined with the above spell.

*****

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

If carrying the body is problem, just be a light weight small character, and stuff em into the backpack of a larger character.

That would certainly work, no problems at all. Sometimes mundane solutions top magic ones!

Grand Lodge ****

I wasn't familiar with the Familiar Melding spell. That's kinda awesome, but does require a 4th level spell, a feat, and the loss of half your HP, and the requirement to find someplace to stash your body and hope the scenario takes less than X hours to complete or else find a way to safely carry around a bulky object that leaves you one CdG away from death at all times.

Powerful is you can make it work; a death sentence if you can't.

Andoran ***

7th level PC Wizard.
Let's give him that elusive Con 14 some people claim is essential for OP.
HP: 6 + 4*6 +7*2 + 7*1 + 7*1 = 58 hit points
This uses FCB & a feat slot for Toughness
Familiar has 29 hit points. Wow.

4th level spell: Familiar Melding
Base AC: 21, Mage Armor (-1 1st level spell slot, 7 hours) AC 25
Reduce Person, using another 1st level spell slot, 7 minutes: +1 AC from size, +1 AC from Dex: AC 27
Fairly nice, but nowhere near what a dedicated tank build at the same level can achieve.
Flatfooted will be 22, IF you are reduced at the time.
Touch will be a measly 17 when reduced and not flatfooted. Heh.

So, you have this so-called God Wizard/Witch. You aren't doing anything that will break your Invisibility. What are you doing? Buffing allies? Fine, invis stays up. Debuffing enemies? Not so good, that can easily break invis.

And, again, around this level, you start facing opponents for whom, for one reason or another, Invisibility does nothing but give you false confidence. Blindsight, blindsense, scent, Invisibility purge, see invisibility, glitterdust, mundane powder, just for starters.

DR/5 Silver OR good
So, when do enemies start having +3 weapons?

Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3

So, DR gone against anyone using a +3 weapon, which includes +3 weapons firing any sort of ammunition.

Improved Evasion? Fine, works against Reflex saves. How about Cloudkill, as just one example of something which cannot be affected by Evasion/Improved Evasion. Oh, and Cloudkill doesn't care if you are invisible or not. Also a great way to lose that body in a backpack... There are plenty of Fort/Will save spells out there, too.

On Daylight, I said neutralize, not negate. And, I will admit, that if I have a PC in your party, and you don't cast Daylight against that Deeper Darkness, I am unlikely to ever want to adventure with your non-cooperative PC ever again. Explore. Cooperate. Report.

Sure, your Imp body lets YOU ignore Deeper Darkness, but you ain't going to be able to handle that enemy on your own, since you aren't attacking in order to not break your invisibility. And your allies are flailing around in the dark, not able to find, much less hit, your opponent. In other words, you lose, even if you manage to not, personally, die. And if your body is being carried around by George the Fighter, who cannot see in the darkness, you can kiss your body goodbye. So, what do you do in 7 hours, when your Meld ends, and your opponent has your regular body under his control? That's if he hasn't CdGed it after taking out the rest of your blinded party...

Natural flight is vulnerable, by the way, to a 50 gp mundane item which goes against touch AC. If you get your wings glued together by a tanglefoot bag, you ain't gonna be doing much flying, now, are you? Even if you manage to make the save, you still get a bunch of penalties, and that isn't something that Improved Evasion is going to work against, even if it is a Reflex save.

And, again, Imps do NOT have any sort of Summon Devil ability, so that is a moot point. So, you would have to burn your own spells to get any additional Devils, being an Imp won't help.

As to items, actually, no. They stay on your body. Suddenly your Int item grants you a temporary bonus again instead of a permanent one. Spell slots gone? Skills gone. You might be able to purchase duplicate items for your Imp, but that can get expensive. Overall, potentially worse than a wildshaping Druid.

Oh, man, this area of the spell gets past ugly quickly. Belts of physical stats, headbands of mental stats, cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, oh my.

Really, I think you are overly impressed by the spell, without realizing all the drawbacks and limitations involved.

Cheliax ***

kinevon wrote:

7th level PC Wizard.

Let's give him that elusive Con 14 some people claim is essential for OP.
HP: 6 + 4*6 +7*2 + 7*1 + 7*1 = 58 hit points
This uses FCB & a feat slot for Toughness
Familiar has 29 hit points. Wow.

4th level spell: Familiar Melding
Base AC: 21, Mage Armor (-1 1st level spell slot, 7 hours) AC 25
Reduce Person, using another 1st level spell slot, 7 minutes: +1 AC from size, +1 AC from Dex: AC 27
Fairly nice, but nowhere near what a dedicated tank build at the same level can achieve.
Flatfooted will be 22, IF you are reduced at the time.
Touch will be a measly 17 when reduced and not flatfooted. Heh.

So, you have this so-called God Wizard/Witch. You aren't doing anything that will break your Invisibility. What are you doing? Buffing allies? Fine, invis stays up. Debuffing enemies? Not so good, that can easily break invis.

And, again, around this level, you start facing opponents for whom, for one reason or another, Invisibility does nothing but give you false confidence. Blindsight, blindsense, scent, Invisibility purge, see invisibility, glitterdust, mundane powder, just for starters.

DR/5 Silver OR good
So, when do enemies start having +3 weapons?

Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3

So, DR gone against anyone using a +3 weapon, which includes +3 weapons firing any sort of ammunition.

Improved Evasion? Fine, works against Reflex saves. How about Cloudkill, as just one example of something which cannot be affected by Evasion/Improved Evasion. Oh, and Cloudkill doesn't care if you are invisible or not. Also a great way to lose that body in a backpack... There are plenty of Fort/Will save spells out there, too.

On Daylight, I said neutralize, not negate. And, I will admit, that if...

Well first off you keep forgetting that Magical gear resizes to fit the wearer, so anything you are wearing normally fits your familiar when they put it on so all those gear bonuses stay.

Second buffing allies is the bards job, a god wizard/witch is casting summon spells and and casting area control spells (Create pit, darkness, Web, Glitterdust, etc) none of which break invisibility.
As for the +3 weapon question there are NO opponents in PFS scenario's who have a +3 weapon. None in any scenario currently in play.

Cloudkill, Really? It's a poison effect and I'm immune to all poisons, and this is a spell I'd cast right on top of me and laugh at you, try again.
As for the fort or will save spells, well I'm immune to half of them since I'm an outsider now and will is my highest save in the game so it's no different then if we were in our own body so no big deal.

All of your examples seem to be ignoring the basic rules of how all these abilities work and don't actually stop anything I'm describing. You seem to be desperately trying to overcome this ability as if I we're planning on being a melee character in the thick of the fight (ick) but you haven't found a single thing that actually works against us.

Shadow Lodge ***

Kinevon wrote:
As to items, actually, no. They stay on your body. Suddenly your Int item grants you a temporary bonus again instead of a permanent one. Spell slots gone? Skills gone. You might be able to purchase duplicate items for your Imp, but that can get expensive. Overall, potentially worse than a wildshaping Druid.

Druid only needs to buy a set of barding. Everything else either works while melded or can be put on by a party member with opposable thumbs

Andoran ***

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Kinevon wrote:
As to items, actually, no. They stay on your body. Suddenly your Int item grants you a temporary bonus again instead of a permanent one. Spell slots gone? Skills gone. You might be able to purchase duplicate items for your Imp, but that can get expensive. Overall, potentially worse than a wildshaping Druid.

Druid only needs to buy a set of barding. Everything else either works while melded or can be put on by a party member with opposable thumbs

Int item resizes? Great! But the bonus is no longer a permanent bonus, so extra spell slots, just for starters, go away.

Any feats based off of permanently enhanced stats stop working.

PFS familiar item slots. What can it actually wear?

Cloudkill was a non-Reflex spell off the top of my head. I seldom run casters, so I don't know all the spells available, far from it.

There are still spells that will ruin that melded imp's day.

Mathwei, you listed at least one spell that is almost certainly an attack spell, which would break invisibility.

Area control spells need to be things that work with your party. Cast darkness? Fine. Enemy ignores it, half your party is blinded by it, since you aren't buffing your party to handle your debuffs. Web isn't going to help your melee allies.

And, again, no +3 weapons you know of in PFS scenarios.

How do my examples ignore the rules of the spell or ability?

Your spirit/mind joins that of your imp (in this case) in its body. Fine. All your stat boosting items are back on your body.

Move them to the imp? Fine. They are going to be pretty much reduced to being temporary bonuses again for the duration of the scenario.

So, your body is either going to be off somewhere, unattended and unconscious; or brought along in some fashion, where it is probably vulnerable to area effect stuff. Shrug. Your call.

If you want to think that a single spell makes you invulnerable, more power to you. I just think you are ignoring some of the aspects of the spell.

For instance, you claimed at least twice that the Imp has an ability which it doesn't have. Maybe if you can make an error about such a low CR creature, maybe you could be making mistakes about other things as well.

Really, overall, is your so-called God Wizard so much more powerful than a well-built archer? You still have to rely, a lot, on having allies who can actually take advantage of the debuffs you are casting.

Create Pit? Fine. You need someone to push the enemy into it.
Darkness? If none of your allies can see through it, it won't help.
Web? Make sure all your allies know you plan on doing it, so they don't get caught in it, and have some sort of ranged attack to take advantage of it.
Glitterdust? Make sure none of your allies are in the area of effect. And are you sure it wouldn't be considered an attack? Attacks don't have to do hit point damage to be an attack.

Debuffs are great, as long as you have a party that can take advantage of them.

Shadow Lodge ***

kinevon wrote:

s

Int item resizes? Great! But the bonus is no longer a permanent bonus, so extra spell slots, just for starters, go away.

That isn't how it works for druids.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).

The +wisdom items are pretty much the definition of an item that provides a constant bonus, so it gets merged into your new form and keeps working. You don't need a horse sized headband, your human sized one goes with you and doesn't stop working.

Quote:
PFS familiar item slots. What can it actually wear?

Animals are restricted to just a Neck and armor slots in pfs.

Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items?

FAQ:
The intent is that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items that require activation. Something like an amulet of natural armor does not require activation; it's always on (unless it's in an antimagic field or someone dispels it or whatever).

That said, a creature is limited by its anatomy. Something without shoulders can't wear a cloak, and something without fingers can't wear a ring. For the sake of PFS, animal companions can wear barding and neck-slot items. All other slots aren't really appropriate for animals (or even magical beasts). The only exception to this would be an brownie, imp, lyrakien azata, or quasit familiar gained with the Improved Familiar feat. One could reasonably face either of these wielding a wand or wearing a circlet of persuasion in combat, and after investing a feat to gain their service, they are not limited by the same restrictions as normal bonded creatures like animals (whether treated like animals or magical beasts and regardless of Int scores).

Imps however can apparently wear the whole shebang.. The only exception to this would be an brownie, imp, lyrakien azata, or quasit familiar gained with the Improved Familiar feat. One could reasonably face either of these wielding a wand or wearing a circlet of persuasion in combat, and after investing a feat to gain their service, they are not limited by the same restrictions as normal bonded creatures like animals

Magic items will even resize, so you can just keep your int

Grand Lodge ****

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Assuming I wanted to make use of this spell with my imp familiar, I'd probably be shooting myself in the foot here, but as a GM I'd rule that any ability score increasing items worn would "reset" if taken off and placed on the imp, and would not still count as permanent (I'd say if they stayed on my body they'd still count as permanent when my spirit returned after the spell ended though).

So if I was making use of a headband of int +4 and melded with my familiar, I'd effectively loose 4 point of int for the duration of the spell. Unless I bought a second headband which my imp always wore.

I'm probably not going to use this spell, ever. I'd rather get the extra actions from having both of us up and active.

Cheliax ***

Quick note about invisibility

"For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell."

of your examples the following effects occur

Create pit (breaks invis), darkness (does not break invis), Web (breaks invis unless its cast on empty space to make an obstacle without binding people), Glitterdust (breaks invis)

Its almost impossible to have any significant effect on a battle without breaking invisibility. Before you say abilities like invisibility are overpowered please be aware of what exactly ends it.


Dust Raven wrote:

Assuming I wanted to make use of this spell with my imp familiar, I'd probably be shooting myself in the foot here, but as a GM I'd rule that any ability score increasing items worn would "reset" if taken off and placed on the imp, and would not still count as permanent (I'd say if they stayed on my body they'd still count as permanent when my spirit returned after the spell ended though).

So if I was making use of a headband of int +4 and melded with my familiar, I'd effectively loose 4 point of int for the duration of the spell. Unless I bought a second headband which my imp always wore.

I'm probably not going to use this spell, ever. I'd rather get the extra actions from having both of us up and active.

Actually you do not have to remove the headbands. When you switch over to the imps body, you keep your int, cha, and Wis and use the imps str dex and con. So you would loose any physical stat boosting item stats but keep your mental ones.

Grand Lodge ****

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Actually you do not have to remove the headbands. When you switch over to the imps body, you keep your int, cha, and Wis and use the imps str dex and con. So you would loose any physical stat boosting item stats but keep your mental ones.

I disagree. You don't benefit from any other magic items on your body, so why would you benefit from these? Unless you do get the bonus to Str, Dex and/or Con as well (but added to the familiar's score). But I don't think so.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
@LazarX, that issue has already been explained, your body has either been turned into a paper like object and safely stored away (shrink Item), or put in a secret chest and sent to another plane. It's safe and worst case will be back in a week or two.

Then you're dead. Putting your body in another plane definitely breaks the range limit for that spell.

Andoran ***

LazarX wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
@LazarX, that issue has already been explained, your body has either been turned into a paper like object and safely stored away (shrink Item), or put in a secret chest and sent to another plane. It's safe and worst case will be back in a week or two.
Then you're dead. Putting your body in another plane definitely breaks the range limit for that spell.

No, the range is only for initial casting, and being able to return to your body when your familiar dies, or the spell duration ends.

Of course, if your body is in an extradimensional space, even if it is in the same room, you die, since it is an extradimensional space, and therefore inaccessible.

As to Shrink Item, you need to have a Wizard or Sorcerer who has either burned a spell slot for their precious third level spells on it, or you have to provide, time after time, a scroll of it for them to use, or maybe a wand would do it.

Of course, whether you are actually dead, and therefore an object to be shrinkable, or not, and therefore not able to be the target of Shrink Item, it still leaves all your magical gear untouched. And unshrunk. Again, all stat enhancements would become temporary, once you return to your body.

And as Dust Raven said, you may take your mental stats with you, but that would be your permanent stats, not any affected by magic items worn, even if the enhancement is, for some purposes, considered permanent.

If you bought a Tome, any enhancement from it stays with you, but your headband, since your mind is no longer in the body being affected by it, does not remain with the mind, but with the body instead.

As to whether you count as dead dead or not, keep in mind that being actually dead means that your body is vulnerable to spells like Decompose Corpse, and the result of that, when the time limit runs out, would be just plain ugly.

Also, if you are under the effect of a Shrink Item, and your familiar is killed, and you were being kept in a non-magical belt pouch, so you could return, what happens? Do you immediately lose the effects of Shrink Item, since you are no longer "dead"? How much damage do you take for becoming normal sized inside a container much too small to hold you? I would assume that it breaks/bursts, but would do damage because it is not going to burst instantaneously, but provide a modicum of constriction before it bursts open/apart.

Oh, and how much gear are you putting on that poor Imp? It only has a base 10 Strength, and at Tiny size that gives it a carrying capacity of 16.5 pounds for a Light Load so it can still be able to fly. Do a Reduce Person on it, using the Share Spells rules so it can be affected, and its carrying capacity at Light Load drops to 8.25 pounds to allow it to still fly.

No Hover feat, so a Fly skill check whenever you don't move at least half your speed while flying. Not to mention the Fly skill check to stay airborne when taking damage.

Oh, and See in Darkness is fine, but, while the Imp is immune to the poison of a Cloudkill, it still obscures vision like other Fog spells. No Line of Sight, and your spells don't work too well. "I Magic Missile the fog!" doesn't even have the pizzazz of The Gamers behind it.

Shadow Lodge ***

Dust Raven wrote:
y other magic items on your body, so why would you benefit from these?

Because your INT remains unchanged, and it can be argued that your int is say 20 because you have an 18 int and a +2 headband.

Quote:
Unless you do get the bonus to Str, Dex and/or Con as well (but added to the familiar's score). But I don't think so.

Con could likewise carry over somewhat because HP remain unchanged. (i think)

Andoran ***

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dust Raven wrote:
y other magic items on your body, so why would you benefit from these?

Because your INT remains unchanged, and it can be argued that your int is say 20 because you have an 18 int and a +2 headband.

Quote:
Unless you do get the bonus to Str, Dex and/or Con as well (but added to the familiar's score). But I don't think so.
Con could likewise carry over somewhat because HP remain unchanged. (i think)

No, your base stats are what transfer over, otherwise Magic Jar becomes even worse than it is. Headband is over on that body, why should it affect this Imp? And, if you say it does, wouldn't magic items then also affect both the Summoner and his Eidolon? There are special rules for summoners, eidolons, and magic item slots, but nowhere does it says that a Headband of Charisma would give both summoner and eidolon the boost to Charisma.

As to hit points, they are not random for a familiar, they are always half the spellcaster's hit points, wounded down. The only thing a Con item would do for a familiar would be to improve its Fort save.

Cheliax ***

kinevon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
@LazarX, that issue has already been explained, your body has either been turned into a paper like object and safely stored away (shrink Item), or put in a secret chest and sent to another plane. It's safe and worst case will be back in a week or two.
Then you're dead. Putting your body in another plane definitely breaks the range limit for that spell.

No, the range is only for initial casting, and being able to return to your body when your familiar dies, or the spell duration ends.

Of course, if your body is in an extradimensional space, even if it is in the same room, you die, since it is an extradimensional space, and therefore inaccessible.

As to Shrink Item, you need to have a Wizard or Sorcerer who has either burned a spell slot for their precious third level spells on it, or you have to provide, time after time, a scroll of it for them to use, or maybe a wand would do it.

Of course, whether you are actually dead, and therefore an object to be shrinkable, or not, and therefore not able to be the target of Shrink Item, it still leaves all your magical gear untouched. And unshrunk. Again, all stat enhancements would become temporary, once you return to your body.

And as Dust Raven said, you may take your mental stats with you, but that would be your permanent stats, not any affected by magic items worn, even if the enhancement is, for some purposes, considered permanent.

If you bought a Tome, any enhancement from it stays with you, but your headband, since your mind is no longer in the body being affected by it, does not remain with the mind, but with the body instead.

As to whether you count as dead dead or not, keep in mind that being actually dead means that your body is vulnerable to spells like Decompose Corpse, and the result of that, when the time limit runs out, would be just plain ugly.

Also, if you are under the effect of a Shrink Item, and your familiar is killed, and you were being kept in a non-magical belt...

Well let's address your comments in order since you made a lot of points, most of which do not matter.

1. Extraplanar + death of familiar. Unless it's been changed and I missed it you can only kill a devil on it's home plane. If you reduce it to zero HP's on the material plane it's banished back to hell for 99 years before it can return. Now it would be unpleasant and somewhat expensive (scrolls of planeshift aren't cheap but are worth it) but this is easily recoverable from. (Keep the scroll with your body in the chest and if the imp is banished summon the chest, recover the body, cast the spell and return to the material plane).

2. Shrink Item, Witches have UMD as a class skill and scrolls of shrink item are cheap (375GP) so less then a average potion of cure at this level, 7+. The spell does specifically call out the dead condition so I feel comfortable assuming this spell will work on the corpse.

3. Stat bonuses, as BNW stated, the bonus is a permanent bonus for as long as it is worn. Possessing another body doesn't take the headband off you. If it worked the way you seem to think it would make astral projection, magic jar and all the soul moving spells never get cast.

4. Being in a bag. This has already been ruled on and is a default part of the Enlarge person spell.

enlarge person wrote:
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.

This usually applies to all size changing spells so it shouldn't be an issue.

The rest of your questions here please see point 1.

5. Imp Strength. Not an issue, Ant Haul is a class spell that lasts a minimum of 14 hours at this level or you can just invest in Muleback Cords and/or Heavyload belt. That 10 strength Imp reduced to size Diminutive can fly carrying 228lbs and still be at a light load with perfect maneuverability for the low cost of 4K gold.

6. Hover feat, HA! The DC for hover a pathetic 15 and an imp body reduced to Diminutive has a base Fly skill of +19 before adding in any actual ranks in fly you have. Unless we are trying to fly in a Hurricane we auto-succeed on every fly check in the game (and have a decent chance in a hurricane too)

7. Fog. So what, you don't cast line of sight spells and stick to the aoe's or non-targeted hexes/spells. Not an issue.

Andoran ***

Suliemann aziz Ammar wrote:
1. Extraplanar + death of familiar. Unless it's been changed and I missed it you can only kill a devil on it's home plane. If you reduce it to zero HP's on the material plane it's banished back to hell for 99 years before it can return. Now it would be unpleasant and somewhat expensive (scrolls of planeshift aren't cheap but are worth it) but this is easily recoverable from. (Keep the scroll with your body in the chest and if the imp is banished summon the chest, recover the body, cast the spell and return to the material plane).

You did read the spell you want to use? The point where it says that if your body is out of range (which s medium) when your familiar gets killed, your body dies for real?

So, plane shift may not be expensive, but having to get raised and restored (twice!) every time your familiar, with its whopping 30 hit points, gets killed may be an indication that the spell isn't as good as you obviously think.

And, no, it getting sent to Hell is not going to be a good thing for your PC, if you somehow manage to convince a gullible GM that that doesn't constitute the death of the Imp for the purposes of the spell, and your body doesn't die, your soul is now exactly where the Imp would have wanted to take it, and, really, you expect just a scroll of Plane Shift and a fork for Hell to be a "get out of damnation free" card?

Note, however, that the Imp is killed on the Prime Material Plane, which means that, if your body is in any sort of extradimensional space, or more than Medium range from your Imp at the time, that your body really dies.

And, as a GM, I would have to say that Shrink Item both wouldn't affect your body while under the effects of Familiar Meld, but that, even if you somehow convinced someone it did, that it only affects one non-magical item. One non-magical item.

Cheliax ***

kinevon wrote:
Suliemann aziz Ammar wrote:
1. Extraplanar + death of familiar. Unless it's been changed and I missed it you can only kill a devil on it's home plane. If you reduce it to zero HP's on the material plane it's banished back to hell for 99 years before it can return. Now it would be unpleasant and somewhat expensive (scrolls of planeshift aren't cheap but are worth it) but this is easily recoverable from. (Keep the scroll with your body in the chest and if the imp is banished summon the chest, recover the body, cast the spell and return to the material plane).

You did read the spell you want to use? The point where it says that if your body is out of range (which s medium) when your familiar gets killed, your body dies for real?

So, plane shift may not be expensive, but having to get raised and restored (twice!) every time your familiar, with its whopping 30 hit points, gets killed may be an indication that the spell isn't as good as you obviously think.

And, no, it getting sent to Hell is not going to be a good thing for your PC, if you somehow manage to convince a gullible GM that that doesn't constitute the death of the Imp for the purposes of the spell, and your body doesn't die, your soul is now exactly where the Imp would have wanted to take it, and, really, you expect just a scroll of Plane Shift and a fork for Hell to be a "get out of damnation free" card?

Note, however, that the Imp is killed on the Prime Material Plane, which means that, if your body is in any sort of extradimensional space, or more than Medium range from your Imp at the time, that your body really dies.

And, as a GM, I would have to say that Shrink Item both wouldn't affect your body while under the effects of Familiar Meld, but that, even if you somehow convinced someone it did, that it only affects one non-magical item. One non-magical item.

You did read my comment that devils can't die on the material plane, period. Do as much damage to them as you want but anything that would impose the "dead" condition on a devil is instead converted to a banishment that drops them back to hell. Alive, fuming in rage and unable to return to the material plane, but fully alive.

They never die, so the spell stays active and the caster stays in full control of the devils body.
Going to hell is never a good thing but it beats death and though the imp can't return to the material plane YOU can as soon as you return to your body and vacate the plane. (At this point you track down whoever banished your familiar and torment them into inviting the Imp back to the material plane, which undoes the 99 year banishment)

Cheliax ***

Mathwei you may wish to read the calling subschool again, because I can guarantee that an imp familiar isnt summoned, hence as an extraplanar creature it must be called by the familiar ritual.

"Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled."

As such the imp actually dies when it is killed, if it was instead merely summoned it would be vunerable to dispel magic, be unable to touch creatures with protection from evil etc. None of which is listed as a weakness of the imp familar.

Cheliax ***

Caderyn wrote:

Mathwei you may wish to read the calling subschool again, because I can guarantee that an imp familiar isnt summoned, hence as an extraplanar creature it must be called by the familiar ritual.

"Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled."

As such the imp actually dies when it is killed, if it was instead merely summoned it would be vunerable to dispel magic, be unable to touch creatures with protection from evil etc. None of which is listed as a weakness of the imp familar.

And for the difference between a summoned creature and a called creature you would be correct.

However, what we are discussing here is an innate nature of fiendish outsiders, Demons and Devils have an innate rule that they cannot be truly killed on the material plane and anything that would kill them just banishes them back to their native plane for 100 years.

This is how things have been since 1st edition with the most famous example being Errtu from the Drizzt Do'urden books. No matter what happens or how he's killed (an artifact blew up on him once) as long as the death happened on the material plane he instantly re-appeared back in the abyss instead of dying.
This is part of what makes fiends so dangerous a foe, they truly cannot die by mortal hands unless you are willing to go to hell to fight them there.

****

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
However, what we are discussing here is an innate nature of fiendish outsiders, Demons and Devils have an innate rule that they cannot be truly killed on the material plane and anything that would kill them just banishes them back to their native plane for 100 years.

Could you point me to that rule? All I see in the Bestiary entry on Outsiders is that "Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking where that rule is in the Pathfinder books.

Cheliax ***

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
However, what we are discussing here is an innate nature of fiendish outsiders, Demons and Devils have an innate rule that they cannot be truly killed on the material plane and anything that would kill them just banishes them back to their native plane for 100 years.

Could you point me to that rule? All I see in the Bestiary entry on Outsiders is that "Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking where that rule is in the Pathfinder books.

This is a holdover rule from the previous versions of D&D and there is nothing in the pathfinder rules changing it.

The actual rules on how this works are laid out in the Fiendish Codex (1 & 2) though it is slightly different then I remember (Demons instantly reform but are banished for 100 years, devils take 100 years to reform but can come back immediately after that).

Shadow Lodge ****

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that demons/devils work in a certain way, because a different RPG system says so?

Am I missing something?

****

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

This is a holdover rule from the previous versions of D&D and there is nothing in the pathfinder rules changing it.

The actual rules on how this works are laid out in the Fiendish Codex (1 & 2) though it is slightly different then I remember (Demons instantly reform but are banished for 100 years, devils take 100 years to reform but can come back immediately after that).

Pathfinder isn't "3.5 except where otherwise noted." If a rule isn't in Pathfinder, it doesn't "carry over" because that's how it's always worked. Several things changed. Including this, apparently.

If you want to houserule it, that's fine. If you want to argue that everyone should houserule it, that's cool too. But for the official Pathfinder rules, 3.5 books don't apply. And this thread is about PFS, where official Pathfinder rules always apply.

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