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Why all the Monk Hate?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

551 to 600 of 1,103 << first < prev | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | next > last >>

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Well then Ashiel, how about actually contributing to the discussion with a build of a Monk or something.

As riveting as your personal experience is to me it doesn't quite do the job as facts and numbers for me.(I also don't care if you've already done it. Post it here or post else where, since your not helping anything with your cute little stories.)

Would you like to see a monk that works, or a core monk? Do you want something fresh or can I do a copy/paste job from one of the other monk threads (if we convert the number of posts on this subject on the internet into dollars, we could probably get America out of its deficits).


Conundrum wrote:
That evokes shrieking internal laughter from me, I want to save this post to show my bud, was that originally in this thread? by the way my friend likes monks alot, myself not so much and this captures nicely how I feel about the class. Thank you very much Ash!

Glad to help. I actually have no problems with the monk conceptually. Mechanically is another matter. Anyway, glad to brighten your day in any case. ^-^

Andoran

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:
It is my imagination or the OPs of monk threads neven participate in the discussions?

I always do. Unfortunately they always seem to derail.

I feel like we have consensus there is a problem, and a lesser consensus the root of the problem is inability to hit, and some people who want to show off obscure rule knowledge dragging the whole thing down into derailing screaming matches on minutia.

I really love your reactions to ashiel´s posts and i really like to see those "battles" of yours but in this case it was a shame, In this trhead i would like more to see a build to build comparision.

Me too, which is why I keep asking for the side discussion to go to it's own thread.

I need to work on a 13th level rogue counter to Brain, but it may have to wait until I'm more awake.

He made a lot of the numbers, but it was kind of situational rather than always on.

But it added, and I also would like a lot more of that and less of the story time/look at my vast knowledge of minutia!


Ashiel wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Well then Ashiel, how about actually contributing to the discussion with a build of a Monk or something.

As riveting as your personal experience is to me it doesn't quite do the job as facts and numbers for me.(I also don't care if you've already done it. Post it here or post else where, since your not helping anything with your cute little stories.)

Would you like to see a monk that works, or a core monk? Do you want something fresh or can I do a copy/paste job from one of the other monk threads (if we convert the number of posts on this subject on the internet into dollars, we could probably get America out of its deficits).

what would you consider an optimized monk? complete with a description of the tactics you would use and an audit of every resource you utilize. fit for surviving your games and contributing without resorting to homebrew class fixes. i want to see how it would work in your games if you built was as a contributing PC or DMPC. since it will largely be your opinion, i don't care if you use the occasional consumable or reasonable 'custom' item to increase efficiency because you do it with every other character in your games.


Ashiel wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Well then Ashiel, how about actually contributing to the discussion with a build of a Monk or something.

As riveting as your personal experience is to me it doesn't quite do the job as facts and numbers for me.(I also don't care if you've already done it. Post it here or post else where, since your not helping anything with your cute little stories.)

Would you like to see a monk that works, or a core monk? Do you want something fresh or can I do a copy/paste job from one of the other monk threads (if we convert the number of posts on this subject on the internet into dollars, we could probably get America out of its deficits).

Currently we have: 5th or 13th builds.

20 Point Buy

Standard Wealth By Level (Can only use 33% on single item)

and make a Core only and Non-Core(UM,APG,UC) builds.

Then compare to the table in Monster Creation for average stats for the level.


Brain in a Jar wrote:

Well then Ashiel, how about actually contributing to the discussion with a build of a Monk or something.

As riveting as your personal experience is to me it doesn't quite do the job as facts and numbers for me.(I also don't care if you've already done it. Post it here or post else where, since your not helping anything with your cute little stories.)

To save time, here are some discussions I've been in on the matter (these are not all of them by any means -.-;).

Ranger Schooling Monks in Mundane Gear.
Part 2.
Part 3.
Part 4.
Part 5.
Part 6.
Part 7. Part 7.5 (Demonstrating the Triviality of outpacing monk).

If you want to see a monk build that works, well I can try to build you one later. However, here are some "monk builds" that are both varied in style, concept, and flavor, which actually do what they are intended to do. They're not core Pathfinder by any means however.
Koji the Ki Warrior.
Nimara the Phantom.
Master Roshi the Old Age Master.

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
what would you consider an optimized monk? complete with a description of the tactics you would use and an audit of every resource you utilize. fit for surviving your games and contributing without resorting to homebrew class fixes. i want to see how it would work in your games if you built was as a contributing PC or DMPC. since it will largely be your opinion, i don't care if you use the occasional consumable or reasonable 'custom' item to increase efficiency because you do it with every other character in your games.

Alright Shuriken, since you have asked, I'll try to figure out a monk that I don't consider a failure but is also a Pathfinder monk (a bit oxymoronic, but I'll do my best).

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Currently we have: 5th or 13th builds.

20 Point Buy

Standard Wealth By Level (Can only use 33% on single item)

and make a Core only and Non-Core(UM,APG,UC) builds.

Then compare to the table in Monster Creation for average stats for the level.

20 Point Buy? I prefer comparing classes in standard, but I suppose 20 point buy is fine.


Brain I will compare your monk to how the other monk did. Your attack is decently hire so before I start I will look over it to see what is different.

I will provide an analysis of each combat, and of course you will be free to say "Wraithstrike that is not the strategy I would use.".


I prefer builds from multiple people so you can see a comparison.

Just stating things is theory crafting and doesn't much matter.


wraithstrike wrote:

Brain I will compare your monk to how the other monk did. Your attack is decently hire so before I start I will look over it to see what is different.

I will provide an analysis of each combat, and of course you will be free to say "Wraithstrike that is not the strategy I would use.".

I trust you. You seem pretty decent and fair.

Generally, i would say open up with a charge to get a +2 bonus and use stunning fist to stagger.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
PHEW that was close! Don't you ever do that again!

Only a lawyer would break down the definitions of individual words to make his case. His was obviously very shaky.


ciretose wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

** spoiler omitted **...

HP 180 (I have 140)
AC 28 (Check i have a 28)
High/Low Attack +22 (Close i have a +21)
High/Low Average Damage 60/45 (Check. 90 with Flurry and 126 with Medusa's Wrath)
Primary Ability DC 21 (Check. I have a 24 when using Stunning Fist)
Good/Poor Save 16/12 (Check. My best is a 18 and lowest is a 13.)

There it didn't really change that much but i replaced anything that wasn't Core.

Better.

Thanks Brain. Still doesn't quite get there, IMHO since things have to go right for it to work out, but gets pretty close situationaly.

These posts really add to the discussion.

I am only getting a DPR of 55.6 with the Flurry which is closer to what Ciretose's monk( 46.41 +2.5 bleed.) got in the other thread, and Brain's monk is not that far ahead of ciretose's in offense from what I am seeing with the attack bonus. I am sure he is not 40DPR ahead, and my math* always matches the math in the DPR threads.

*I am also getting the same number with a spreadsheet. By my math I also mean the spread sheet. :)

PS:I am just assuming flurry with no ki points or anything else in play for right now.

Andoran

wraithstrike wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

** spoiler omitted **...

HP 180 (I have 140)
AC 28 (Check i have a 28)
High/Low Attack +22 (Close i have a +21)
High/Low Average Damage 60/45 (Check. 90 with Flurry and 126 with Medusa's Wrath)
Primary Ability DC 21 (Check. I have a 24 when using Stunning Fist)
Good/Poor Save 16/12 (Check. My best is a 18 and lowest is a 13.)

There it didn't really change that much but i replaced anything that wasn't Core.

Better.

Thanks Brain. Still doesn't quite get there, IMHO since things have to go right for it to work out, but gets pretty close situationaly.

These posts really add to the discussion.

I am only getting a DPR of 55.6 with the Flurry which is closer to what Ciretose's monk( 46.41 +2.5 bleed.) got in the other thread, and Brain's monk is not that far ahead of ciretose's in offense from what I am seeing with the attack bonus. I am sure he is not 40DPR ahead, and my math* always matches the math in the DPR threads.

*I am also getting the same number with a spreadsheet. By my math I also mean the spread sheet. :)

PS:I am just assuming flurry with no ki points or anything else in play for right now.

I think the numbers are built on optimal assumptions, which is the problem.

I think that is close to the bleeding edge of what you can do, and it just barely floats around the standard expectation for the CR.


My rough estimation has the monk doing an averge of 18 points of damage per hit

The first attack has a .7 chance of landing. .7 X 18=12.6

second attack 18 X .45=8.1

Last attack 18 X .2=3.6

The first two attacks come in pairs so they should be doubled

25.2+16.2+3.6= 45

That 45 does not include chances to crit which would explain the more exact math being 10 points higher.


With Medusa's Wrath it goes to 68.94

If the monster has a poor fort save it goes up to 73.98

Instead of assuming Medusa's Wraith was going to work I look at the base good save of a monster for that level, and added it into the equation


The monk should take the monster down in 3 rounds

The monster has an attack bonus of 22 assuming it is a combat based monster. The monk has an AC of 28, so the monster has a .7857 or 78.57 chance to hit

The average damage is 60 so 60 X .7857= 47.142
The monster can take the monk done in 4 rounds if he makes all of is saves, but that is not likely. More than likely he fails on the 3rd round. The monk take about 94 points of damage if he wins initiative, and about 140 otherwise.

That is a lot of damage to take, but the monk did contribute.

Next I will use an actual monster instead of just using the chart in the back of the book.


Okay, here's a shot at a core monk.
20 Point Buy, Human.
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 7.

Human Monk (Favored) 1
Init~ +3, Senses~ Perception +3
===================================================
AC 16, touch 16, flat 10 (+3 dex +1 dodge, +2 armor)
Hp 15 (1d8+7); Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
===================================================
Speed 30 ft.
Melee staff +4 (1d6+6/x3, double) or unarmed +4 (1d6+4)
Ranged club +3 (1d6+4/x2) or sling +3 (1d3+3/x2)
===================================================
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 7
BAB +0; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats~ Toughness (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B),
Dodge (B), Deflect Arrows (1)
Skills~ Acrobatics +7, Perception +3, Stealth +7
Equipment (Wealth = 35 gp)~ weapons (including 10 clubs, 10 slings, 3 staffs), traveler's outfit, torch (10), flint & steel, sack, leather armor, 22 gp.

Comments: The above is an attempt at a monk that may survive. Unfortunately the one spear monks lack proficiency in was the longspear, and honestly meleeing with this guy is a bad idea with an AC 14. However, it could be worse. On the plus side he is quite mobile, has descent saves, and is a good ranged character (I leave one hand empty to reload slings, chuck slingshots for an average of 5 damage and deflect counter-arrows). Having looked over feat opportunities in the core rulebook, and what I get/lose for wearing armor, this monk is dropping Wisdom because he doesn't want it. Leather armor gives me +2 AC at no penalty, which is the equivalent to a 14 Wisdom. Done and done.

Human Monk (Favored) 5
Init~ +3, Senses~ Perception +10
===================================================
AC 23, touch 15, flat 19 (+3 dex, +7 armor, +1 dodge, +1 deflection, +1 natural)
Hp 37 (5d8+15); Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
===================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft., +10 enhancement)
Melee mwk staff +8 (1d6+6/x3, double) or mwk gauntlet +8 (1d8+4)
Ranged club +6 (1d6+4/x2) or sling +6 (1d3+3/x2)

Combat Gear
Potions/Oils~ resist energy (5), shillelagh (5),
grease (5), lesser restoration (5), delay poison (5),
enlarge person (5)
===================================================
Str 19, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 7
BAB +3; CMB +9; CMD 20
Feats~ Toughness (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B),
Dodge (B), Deflect Arrows (1), Catch off Guard (B), Light Armor Proficiency(3), Medium Armor Proficiency (5)
Skills~ Acrobatics +8, Perception +7, Stealth +8
Equipment (Wealth = 10,500 gp)~ traveler's outfit, torch (10), flint & steel, sack, mwk staff (300 gp), mwk gauntlet (305 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor (2,000 gp), cloak of resistance +1, +1 breastplate (1,350 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp)

Comments: At 3rd and 5th level, the monk was tired of being behind his peers in both offense AND defense, and so has taken steps to ensure his survival to higher levels by learning to wear and purchasing armor (not really many feat opportunities otherwise). At some point he turned over his leather for a +1 breastplate. A masterwork gauntlet is his answer for when he is disarmed or his staff broken. He has a variety of potions in his handy haversack for different issues. Shillelagh is used on his staff (or clubs) to make it deal 2d6+1 damage and a +1 weapon for a while. He only uses this in emergencies. Worst case scenario he pops a potion of enlarge person too (bringing his staff damage to 3d6+7 total) with a 10 ft. reach.

Human Monk (Favored) 13
Init~ +5, Senses~ Perception +17
===================================================
AC 34, touch 19, flat 28 (+5 dex, +9 armor, +1 dodge, +2 deflection, +2 natural, +4 shield, +1 insight)
Hp 166 (5d8+104); Fort +18, Ref +18, Will +13
Spell Resistance 23;

===================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft., +10 enhancement)
Melee +1 cold iron spear +20/+15 (1d8+16, 19-20/x3) or +1 silver gauntlet +21/+11 (2d6+10) or
Ranged +1 composite longbow +15/+10 (1d8+11/x3)

===================================================
Str 30 (28), Dex 21, Con 23 (21), Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
BAB +9; CMB +23; CMD 38
Feats~ Toughness (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B),
Dodge (B), Deflect Arrows (1), Catch off Guard (B), Light Armor Proficiency(3), Medium Armor Proficiency (5), Mobility (B), Iron Will (7), Great Fortitude (9), Improved Critical {Spear} (B), Lightning Reflexes (11), Defensive Combat Training (13)
Skills~ Acrobatics +17, Perception +17, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +21
Equipment (Wealth = 140,000 gp)~ traveler's outfit, torch (10), flint & steel, sack, ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +2 (8,000 gp), cloak of resistance +3 (9,000 gp), +3 mithral breastplate (19,200 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), dusty rose ioun stone (5,000 gp), boots of speed (12,000 gp), scarab of golembane (+3,750 gp to amulet of natural armor), lesser bracers of archery (5,000 gp), +1 composite longbow (9,400 gp), +1 silver gauntlet (2,325 gp), +1 cold iron spear (4,305 gp), +4 strength gloves (16,000 gp), spellcasting services (17,640 gp), ring of feather falling (2,000 gp), +3 masterwork buckler (9,170) 7,230 gp for miscellaneous stuff (arrows, potions, etc).

Comments: And here we go. A monk that is capable of surviving pretty well I think. His AC has a 50% evasion vs a CR 13 creature's high end attack and an 80% evasion vs a low-end attack, hits a CR 13 AC of 28 on a roll of 7+, and can activate his boots of speed as a free action to increase DPR significantly. His saves are good. His ring of feather falling helps when falling great distances. His check penalty is +0. His Combat Maneuver Defense and Combat Maneuvers are at full HD. Has melee and ranged attacks covered. He has cold iron and silver weapons covered. If he encounters a golem (DR adamantine) he has a golem bane scarab which allows him to ignore it.

Number Crunches as Follows
=================================================================
DPR vs AC 28
20.5 at 65%/40% = 21.525
With Haste
20.5 at 70%/70%/45% = 37.925
Estimated rounds to kill a CR 13 foe: 5 rounds (180 HP / 37.925)

If greater magic weapon is cast on our weapon by our favorite wizard then the numbers become...

DPR vs AC 28 (w/ GMW)
22.5 at 75%/50% = 27
With Haste(w/ GMW)
22.5 at 80%/80%/55% = 48.375
Estimated Rounds to Kill a CR 13 foe: 4 rounds

More buffing helps. :P
Recommended buffs include the usual suspects.

Assume anything resembling a KI POINT goes to AC against foes who matter. Go-go Dodgey Rangers.
==================================================================

Gonna take a break before I do a non-core monk.

EDIT: Fixed the AC. It was actually 2 points higher than I listed (so his evasion vs low end is 90% and 60%+ evasion vs high end).

EDIT 2: Forgot some spellcasting service costs. Added in costs for magic circle x18 and dimensional anchor x18.


Here is a monster that came up in the other thread, the Akhlut

The monster is not stealthy so it is not likely to ambush the monk

It is likely to win initiative however

The monster has a +27 to hit meaning it only misses on a nat 1.
If it power attacks then it has a +22 to hit, and until it has trouble hitting it has not reason not to.

48 average damage + 14 cold damage=62 points of damage. It can also grab the monk, but after taking. Yeah the monk can abundant step out of the grapple, but that just sets him up for a charge if he stays within sight.
Well the monk can stun him to make him lose a round of offense, and that makes it a pretty close fight, but the advantage still goes to the monster, just like it did in the other thread, but the barbarian was struggling also. It just had enough DR and hit points to last more round.

Of course the monster could for a pin meaning the monk is in serious trouble. I would suggest using abundant step to get away asap.

The monk did contribute by holding the monster's attention. Not bad Mr. Brain.

Before I go on to the next monster I want to see if any other people will post a monk build. :)


Ashiel's monk brings up a very true but annoying point for the monk. It is better off using weapons for most of us.


wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel's monk brings up a very true but annoying point for the monk. It is better off using weapons for most of us.

Well ideally I'd love to have used a longspear, but monks get 0 reach weapons. I was sad. Looking at the monk from an evolutionary standpoint, it was either gosh-awful AC or gosh-awful offense. I figured due to my sucky BAB and lack of buff power, I'd best get my to-hit and damage up ASAP, because unless we're magically landing in the world at high levels then the monk wouldn't survive long enough to get stuff like agile gauntlets and all that jazz. I actually began building the monk with a good mixture of Dex and Wisdom, then half-way through said "F-it..." and went back, tanked Wisdom like it was poisonous and donned armor.

The result was a character who was still inferior to another character, but could actually survive a while despite the low-AC and could contribute meaningfully in damage. The problem at high levels however was trying to turn the survival up and keep offense reasonable. Magic items get more and more expensive, and enemies get more and more to-hit. Meanwhile, the monk's lagging BAB becomes more and more noticeable. Without buffs, Power Attack will actually LOWER the monk's damage per round quite significantly. On the flip side, the damage this monk does deal is at least consistent and not terrible assuming he has backup. If trying to solo-a CR 13 opponent in melee, he should have enough ki points to get his AC in the 70% evasion range long enough to kill the opponent.

I highly considered taking shield proficiency, but without Power Attack or class features, keeping 1-handed DPR reasonable would have been more or less impossible. Needed the 1.5 strength mod to sustain reasonable damage. EDIT: Amulets of mighty fist are prohibitively expensive. You can't even reasonably expect to find one in a core game for sale if it's higher than +1.

I think the thing that makes me the saddest is I could probably replace the above Monk build with the NPC warrior class and probably be better off for it. EDIT: I could have saved on a number of feats, made use of Power Attack, reach weapons, wouldn't need bracers to use a bow, would have more HP right out of the gate, more AC out of the gate, and so on and so forth.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel's monk brings up a very true but annoying point for the monk. It is better off using weapons for most of us.

I agree.

But i have a feeling the reason here 13th level Monk seems so good is because of:

"spellcasting services (9,900 gp)"

Which of course equals inherent bonuses to all his stats.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel's monk brings up a very true but annoying point for the monk. It is better off using weapons for most of us.

I agree.

But i have a feeling the reason here 13th level Monk seems so good is because of:

"spellcasting services (9,900 gp)"

Which of course equals inherent bonuses to all his stats.

You are not wrong sir.

EDIT: Actually, should add an extra 7,740 gp to that. I forgot that the caster would more than likely charge for the magic circle and dimensional anchor spells involved as well. ^.^"

EDIT 2: Also, this probably makes it obvious that the weaker your class is MAD-wise the more planar binding helps you out. Wizards aren't going to get much love from a +5 Strength, Charisma, Dexterity or Wisdom for example. Monks on the other hand gobble it up hungrily. XD


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If the best you can do with the core monk is to dump wisdom, max strength, wear breastplate, and never flurry, then that alone says to me that something is horribly wrong.

And what actual monk class features are being used here, anyhow? Couldn't the same build be made strictly better as a Fighter?


Roberta Yang wrote:

If the best you can do with the core monk is to dump wisdom, max strength, wear breastplate, and never flurry, then that alone says to me that something is horribly wrong.

And what actual monk class features are being used here, anyhow? Couldn't the same build be made strictly better as a Fighter?

He's... slightly faster than someone else who isn't hasted and is wearing medium armor.

I think it's hilarious that the monk with barbarian fantasies is actually getting a leg up on his other monk brethren due to his medium armor cross-dressing. :P


Roberta Yang wrote:

If the best you can do with the core monk is to dump wisdom, max strength, wear breastplate, and never flurry, then that alone says to me that something is horribly wrong.

And what actual monk class features are being used here, anyhow? Couldn't the same build be made strictly better as a Fighter?

Well he has spell-resistance and drinks potions (allowing him to ignore the SR for his buffs), and he's immune to some stuff and he jumps pretty good (he has a +13 acrobatics to jump in his armor. Otherwise, you are pretty much correct. :\


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Alright so after taking away the absurd +5 inherent bonus to all stats for 9,900 gold.

Ashiel's Monk is left really really crappy.

STR 25
DEX 16
CON 19
INT 7
WIS 8
CHA 7

And left with 9,900 more gold to spend of course.

Init~ +3, Senses~ Perception +15
===================================================
AC 31, touch 17, flat 27 (+3 dex, +9 armor, +1 dodge, +2 deflection, +2 natural, +3 shield, +1 insight)
Hp 140 ; Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +11
Spell Resistance 23;

===================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft., +10 enhancement)
Melee +1 cold iron spear +17/+12 (1d8+11, 19-20/x3) or +1 silver gauntlet +17/+12 (1d3+8) or
Ranged +1 composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+8/x3)

===================================================
Str 30 (28), Dex 21, Con 23 (21), Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
BAB +9; CMB +23; CMD 37

More like that plus Ashiel i'd recheck your math lots of stuff is either to high or to low. I fixed it above after i took out the +5 inherent bonus to all six stats.

Take that garbage of 9,900 gold for +5 to all stats away from here. Lol.


Hell even with that BS +5 to all stats your Monk was doing worse than the one i built. I think the problem is you don't know how to make or play a Monk.


Brain in a Jar wrote:


Take that garbage of 9,900 gold for +5 to all stats away from here. Lol.

Take a hike. :P


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You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.

That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)

Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?


Neo2151 wrote:

You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.

That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)

Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?

Yeah. Also Ashiel's Monk example is also riddled with incorrect math and rules and is made with the intention of being bad from the looks of it.


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Brain in a Jar wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.

That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)

Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?

Yeah. Also Ashiel's Monk example is also riddled with incorrect math and rules and is made with the intention of being bad from the looks of it.

You say that, but it's significantly more durable than the one you posted and doesn't get trashed by DR.


Aratrok wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.

That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)

Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?

Yeah. Also Ashiel's Monk example is also riddled with incorrect math and rules and is made with the intention of being bad from the looks of it.
You say that, but it's significantly more durable than the one you posted and doesn't get trashed by DR.

Once you take away the inflated stats Ashiel's had it's about as tough as mine and alot weaker in offense and everything else.

I also don't see how i get "trashed: by DR i bypass magic, silver, cold iron with my Amulet(+3).

If i really needed to i can make room in the budget for the golem bane scarab or other things.

If you like i can update my "Drunk Monk Core" with 9,900 gold worth of "spellcasting services" and show you how much better i'll be than Ashiel's using the same tactic.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.

That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)

Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?

Yeah. Also Ashiel's Monk example is also riddled with incorrect math and rules and is made with the intention of being bad from the looks of it.
You say that, but it's significantly more durable than the one you posted and doesn't get trashed by DR.

Once you take away the inflated stats Ashiel's had it's about as tough as mine and alot weaker in offense and everything else.

I also don't see how i get "trashed: by DR i bypass magic, silver, cold iron with my Amulet(+3).

If i really needed to i can make room in the budget for the golem bane scarab or other things.

You said core. I used core. I didn't cheat, or do anything unreasonable. If you want, go spend 17,640 gp on spellcasting and get you some +2.5 mods and then compare. Go ahead. I'll wait.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.

That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)

Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?

Yeah. Also Ashiel's Monk example is also riddled with incorrect math and rules and is made with the intention of being bad from the looks of it.

Even if that is true (I'm not checking the math, so I'll take your word for it, and the inherent bonuses are going to come down to a GM call as there's nothing RAW against it) it doesn't make anything I said less true.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

You can build Ashiel's Monk using the Warrior NPC class instead and it would contribute equally well to a party.

That's awful.
(Scratch that - The Warrior has proficiency with superior weapons. The Warrior version is actually better!)

Shows just how (not) useful aaaaall those nifty Monk abilities are, doesn't it?

Yeah. Also Ashiel's Monk example is also riddled with incorrect math and rules and is made with the intention of being bad from the looks of it.
You say that, but it's significantly more durable than the one you posted and doesn't get trashed by DR.

Once you take away the inflated stats Ashiel's had it's about as tough as mine and alot weaker in offense and everything else.

I also don't see how i get "trashed: by DR i bypass magic, silver, cold iron with my Amulet(+3).

If i really needed to i can make room in the budget for the golem bane scarab or other things.

If you like i can update my "Drunk Monk Core" with 9,900 gold worth of "spellcasting services" and show you how much better i'll be than Ashiel's using the same tactic.

As I said before, go for it. But do as I did and add in the gold I forgot, which makes the whole mess equate to 17,640 gp. On a side note, I would like to see your monk at low levels too. How does he fare at 1st level? Then 5th, then 13th?

The monk I built was based on the idea that I'd need to actually play him and, y'know, not die.


i can work on recycling a 7th level character from one of my previous Games. Miyabi "Rex" "the human attack dog" Kobayashi. she started level 5 and made it to 7. i don't have her sheet, but i remember most of the important details.

Rex:

Rex

Female Human (Tian) Brawler 3/Ironskin Martial Artist of Many Styles 4.

Attributes

Str 20 (15+2racial+1 level+2 belt)

Dex 18 (16+2 belt)

Con 14

int 12

wis 14

cha 7

Gear; +1 fists (2,000 gold, houseruled) Belt of Physical Might (STR/DEX+2) +1 brawling mithril shirt, ring of water breathing (Start of campaign freebie given to all new PCs) Cloak of Resistance +2 +1 composite longbow (+4 str)

Feats; 2weapon fighting (1st level), improved 2weapon fighting (7th level), power attack (Fighter Bonus) Toughness (Human Bonus) Dragon Style (monk bonus 1) dragon ferocity (monk bonus 2) open minded (level 3) weapon focus (unarmed) (Fighter 2) stunning fist (monk bonus) deadly aim (5th level)

traits; indomitable faith (+1 to will saves) mizu ki hikari rebel (+1 to unarmed damage)

favored class; brawler (3 skill points)

Skills

Perception +12

Survival +12

Stealth +14

Acrobatics +14

Climb +9

Swim +9

Profession (Sailor) +12

Sense Motive +6

intimidate +2

Combat

AC 21 Touch 14 FF 17 (+5 armor +4 dex +2 natural)

CMB +12 CMD 26 HP 63 (10+12+20+21)

Saves Fort +10 Ref +10 Will +9

Attack

Unarmed 2wf w/ power attack +11/11/6/6 1d8+16

bow (w/ deadly aim) +9/4 1d8+9

notable details

DM played with 25 point buy

allowed both fists to be enhanced as one weapon taking the hand slot (single weapon price)

waived the hobgoblin requirement on ironskin monk

allowed the appropriate non ki abilities of ironskin monk to be taken from the archetype due to no ki pool.

CR7:

CR7
Hit Points 85 (3/4 of the amount or 63)
Armor Class 20 (1 over)
High attack (missed it by 2) 13
low attack 10 (missed it by 4)
high damage (if all attacks hit)30 (the first 2 hits alone exceed this)
low damage 22 (the only way i fall below is three misses)
primary ability DC 17 (not built for it, but DC16 is close)
secondary DC 12 (my only ability exceeds that)
Good save 10 (makes it barely)
bad save 6 (beat it by 3)


Brain in a Jar wrote:
I also don't see how i get "trashed: by DR i bypass magic, silver, cold iron with my Amulet(+3).

I thought the ruling was that AoMF only lets you get through DR/magic, not any other sort of DR granted by having a high weapon enhancement bonus.

And what's your plan for DR/good?


Cheat Monk:

Monk Level 13
Male Dwarf
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +3; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +24
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 31,touch 28, flat-footed 27
hp 166 (13 HD)
Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +19 (+2 poison and spells or spell-like abilities; +2 enchantments)
Defensive Abilities Improved Evasion, Defensive Training(+4 dodge bonus against giant subtype)
Immune: Disease, Poison
SR: 23
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +21/+16 (2d8+11/19-20x2)

Flurry Unarmed Strike* +20/+20/+15/+15/+11 (2d8+15/19-20x2)

*Using Power Attack

Critical Focus (+4 attack to confirm critical confirmation)

Stunning Fist(13/Day; Fort DC 26; Choose: Stun 1 round, Fatigued, Sickened 1 minute, or Staggered 1d6+1 rounds.)

Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 27, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 15, Wis 27, Cha 10
Base Atk +9; CMB +24(+2 Grapple); CMD 45 (+4 Bull Rush, Trip)

Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Medusa's Wrath, Improved Critical(Unarmed Strike), Ability Focus(Stunning Fist), Critical Focus

Skills: Acrobatics +12(+24 jumping), Climb +15, Knowledge(History) +10, Knowledge(Religion) +10, Perception +24, Sense Motive +24, Stealth +18, Swim +15, Intimidate +14

Languages: Common, Dwarven,

SQ: AC Bonus +4, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump(1 Ki), Ki Pool(14 points), Maneuver Training, Slow Fall 60', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sickened, Staggered), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body(2 Ki), Abundant Step(2 Ki), Stability, Slow and Steady, Greed, Stonecunning, Hatred, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul,

Gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists(+3), Ring of Protection(+2), Monk's Robe, Belt of Giant Strength(+6), Bracers of Armor(+3), Headband of Inspired Wisdom(+4), Cloak of Resistance(+1), Clay Jug(filled with Dwarven Stout), 17,640 gold for "spellcasting BS",


Roberta Yang wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
I also don't see how i get "trashed: by DR i bypass magic, silver, cold iron with my Amulet(+3).

I thought the ruling was that AoMF only lets you get through DR/magic, not any other sort of DR granted by having a high weapon enhancement bonus.

And what's your plan for DR/good?

There is no ruling.

My Plan for DR/Good would be a Potion of Align Weapon. I left about 4,000 gold leftover to purchase consumables, but we mentioned leaving them out.

How does Ashiel's Cheat Monk get passed DR/good?


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
I also don't see how i get "trashed: by DR i bypass magic, silver, cold iron with my Amulet(+3).

I thought the ruling was that AoMF only lets you get through DR/magic, not any other sort of DR granted by having a high weapon enhancement bonus.

And what's your plan for DR/good?

There is no ruling.

My Plan for DR/Good would be a Potion of Align Weapon. I left about 4,000 gold leftover to purchase consumables, but we mentioned leaving them out.

How does Ashiel's Cheat Monk get passed DR/good?

Align weapon oils would be the most obvious answer. Also, your being asinine with your "Cheat Monk" spoiler. I also have a series of questions for you concerning your monk while we're at it.

1) How did he reach 13th level (mine can survive)?
2) How does he deal with enemies at a distance (mine uses a bow)?
3) My monk has a higher AC than yours even without the inherent modifiers. Your monk without the inherent modifiers has an AC below 30, which puts you into near auto-hit territory by anything on the high end of the CR 13 scale (+22 to hit).

I'm most curious about #1 though.


Ashiel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel's monk brings up a very true but annoying point for the monk. It is better off using weapons for most of us.
Well ideally I'd love to have used a longspear, but monks get 0 reach weapons.

I never liked that either. Even if you take a feat to get one you can't flurry with it. There is probably a feat to flurry with a nonmonk weapon, but if the monk had a reach weapon....


wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ashiel's monk brings up a very true but annoying point for the monk. It is better off using weapons for most of us.
Well ideally I'd love to have used a longspear, but monks get 0 reach weapons.
I never liked that either. Even if you take a feat to get one you can't flurry with it. There is probably a feat to flurry with a nonmonk weapon, but if the monk had a reach weapon....

Well I figured that if my monk could use a longspear that would help survivability at low levels. Prance about the battlefield, poking people at a distance for 1d8+6, and remaining mobile. However, monks have no reach weapons in core at all, so I realized mobility was pretty pointless because they have neither decent ranged weapons nor any decent way to full attack.

EDIT: So for the lowest levels I would stick to some leather, then mwk studded leather, and slingshots; then pickup armor proficiencies and get some decent AC to survive in melee, and then go from there. AC otherwise would have been abysmal. If I specced AC prime to try and survive at low levels, my to-hit and to-damage would be so low as to be non-threatening.

I'm considering that perhaps I could switch around some of the armor proficiency feats for some ranged feats and try to make someone who kites enemies by jumping around or moving over difficult terrain and then shooting, but that felt to gimmicky to me and is way to easy to shut down (simply ignoring him would work, or out-shooting him, since you cannot kite what shoots back).

EDIT 2: On a side note, in the case of aligned damage reductions, I did plan on using bless weapon oils (50 gp) in the odd chance that I encountered DR/Good. Silver and Cold Iron cover most of my bases otherwise, and I've got bludgeoning (skeletons) and piercing (rakshasa?) covered. Looking over it again, perhaps I should hook him up with a short sword (I got the cash for it). Yeah, a +1 short sword for dealing with zombies and swallow whole would be handy.

EDIT 3: On yet another side note, the above is my "CORE MONK". I didn't have a lot to work with. In fact, I'm actually ecstatic that my "core monk" is even comparable to a monk with archtypes and non-core splat material. Makes me feel proud of my warrior-wannabe monk. XD

Grand Lodge

How to make a monk work without archetypes from what I can gather so far...

Well...dump mental stats, boost phsyical stats, wear brawler armor and gauntlets. Yeah...sounds pretty dumb to me to.


Cold Napalm wrote:

How to make a monk work without archetypes from what I can gather so far...

Well...dump mental stats, boost phsyical stats, wear brawler armor and gauntlets. Yeah...sounds pretty dumb to me to.

Well I was using Core-only, which means no out of core feats, spells, items, and so forth. Just the goods plain and simple. :)

Grand Lodge

Ashiel wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

How to make a monk work without archetypes from what I can gather so far...

Well...dump mental stats, boost phsyical stats, wear brawler armor and gauntlets. Yeah...sounds pretty dumb to me to.

Well I was using Core-only, which means no out of core feats, spells, items, and so forth. Just the goods plain and simple. :)

Fine no brawlers armor...just mithril breastplate it is then...


Cold Napalm wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

How to make a monk work without archetypes from what I can gather so far...

Well...dump mental stats, boost phsyical stats, wear brawler armor and gauntlets. Yeah...sounds pretty dumb to me to.

Well I was using Core-only, which means no out of core feats, spells, items, and so forth. Just the goods plain and simple. :)
Fine no brawlers armor...just mithril breastplate it is then...

The things we must do to survive. ^.^"

Since Brian in a Jar wanted to bellyache about my core-only monk being semi-descent or using spellcasting services to get +2.5 to my mods, well I have a few bones to pick with his build an why I don't see it as playable -- at least in no games I play in.

BiaJ's Monk at 13th Level:
Drunken Master Monk Level 13
Male Dwarf
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +22
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 30, touch 25, flat-footed 28
hp 127 (13 HD)
Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +17 (+2 poison and spells or spell-like abilities)
Defensive Abilities Improved Evasion, Wyrmscourged(+1 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and on saving throws against the extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of dragons.)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.

Melee Unarmed Strike +18/+13 (2d8+8/19-20x2)

Flurry Unarmed Strike +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (2d8+8/19-20x2)

Stunning Fist(14/Day; Fort DC 24; Choose: Stun 1 round, Fatigued, Sickened 1 minute, or Staggered 1d6+1 rounds.)

Mantis Style(While using this style gain +2 bonus to Stunning Fist DC and +2 bonus on unarmed attack rolls while using Stunning Fist attempts)

Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 5
Base Atk +9; CMB +21(+2 Grapple); CMD 39 (+2 Grapple, Reposition; +4 Bull Rush; +6 Trip)

Feats: Ironhide, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Mantis Style, Fast Drinker, Mobility, Mantis Wisdom, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike), Medusa's Wrath, Improved Critical(Unarmed Strike), Ability Focus(Stunning Fist),

Skills: Acrobatics +10(+22 jumping), Climb +10, Knowledge(History) +4, Knowledge(Religion) +5, Knowledge(Arcana) +6(+8 Dragons) Perception +22, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +16, Swim +10

Traits: Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith,

Languages: Common, Dwarven,

SQ: AC Bonus +4, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump(1 Ki), Ki Pool(12 points), Maneuver Training, Slow Fall 60', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sickened, Staggered), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body(1 Ki*), Abundant Step(1 Ki*), Stability, Slow and Steady, Greed,

Gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists(+3), Ring of Protection(+3), Ring of Ki Mastery*(2 Ki Stored; Reduces cost of Ki powers by 1 point(minimum 1)as long as 2 Ki are stored; Provides a +2 bonus to CMD against Grapple, Trip, Reposition as long as 1 Ki stored.), Monk's Robe, Belt of Giant Strength(+4), Bracers of Armor(+4), Headband of Inspired Wisdom(+4), Cloak of Resistance(+2), Handy Haversack Bag, (8) Clay Jugs(filled with Dwarven Stout; each jug contains 8 pints; 1 pint=a tankard for Drunken Ki)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------

Drunken Ki (Su)

At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The monk can have a maximum number of drunken ki points equal to 1 plus one additional point for every two levels thereafter (5th, 7th, and so on). The monk can gain this temporary ki even before he gains a ki pool at 4th level. These drunken ki points last for 1 hour or until spent, whichever is shorter. As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Drunken Strength (Su)

At 5th level, a drunken master can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to inflict 1d6 extra points of damage on a single successful melee attack. The monk can choose to apply the damage after the attack roll is made. At 10th level, the monk may spend 2 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 2d6. At 15th level, the monk may spend 3 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 3d6. At 20th level, the monk may spend 4 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 4d6. The monk must have at least 1 drunken ki point to use this ability.

Drunken Courage (Su)

At 11th level, a drunken master is immune to fear as long as he has at least 1 point of drunken ki.

Drunken Resilience (Ex)

At 13th level, a drunken master gains DR 1/— as long as he has at least 1 point of drunken ki. At 16th level, the DR increases to 2/—. At 19th level, it increases to 3/—.

Firstly, he doesn't list his bonuses, his initial starting stats, or where his AC is coming from. This isn't wrong persay but it's darn annoying. Just wanted to get that out of the way. >.>

To have a 22 Wisdom with a +4 stat item at 13th level means that at 1st level, ol' boy only had a 14 AC. Ironhide (non-core) gives him a +1 AC, but it's only available to DWARFS. I love how everyone always chooses dwarf monks for these things (yes I realize dwarfs are the powergamer race of choice, I love them too, but seriously dwarfing it up to make monks look good is a bit dishonest IMHO, because while every race has access to magic items, spells, and so forth, only dwarfs can get Ironhide and similar things). Then you add Dodge as a bonus feat to match my monk's AC 16 (I got here using leather armor). Still, AC 16 on a front-liner is horrible. You're a dead man before 2nd level unless your GM is pulling punches. I was nervous with a 16 and didn't want to get anywhere near "danger" and took Deflect Arrows to try to avoid ranged damage as well and opt to use a sling as often as possible. His Monk has very poor to-hit rolls with ranged weapons, which means that it's either Melee or the Highway. His Strength would have been a 16 at 1st level which isn't bad but it's not great either when you have no base attack bonus and your damage averages 6.5 on a successful hit.

At which point he then has to wait quite a few levels until his AC can get passable. Every level the party rises and his AC does not (and it doesn't, since he can only raise it by Dex or Wisdom boosts) is a level he is getting easier to hit by anything closer to the party's level.

For example, let's look at our monks at 5th level. Now doing some reverse engineering here, it appears that at 5th level his monk would have +4 Wis, +1 Monk, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 dodge. Add a ring of protection and we get +1 deflection. AC 19. At 5th level, that's horrible for a martial. Absolutely appalling. A dead man walking of sorts. I felt a bit unsure of my monk at AC 23 at 3rd level, since at that level I was firmly in the "melee" category of characters and felt it was a bit low, but it was a whole 20% more evasion than drunk-monk.

Gonna get eaten. :P

EDIT: Just as an example, let's take your garden variety ogre. CR 3. Has a +7 to hit with their weapon (say a longspear since the ogre bestiary entry gives them an inappropriate weapon). At 5th level the ogre hits my character on a roll of 15 (25% chance to land and a poor chance to crit). The orc hits Drunk Monk on a 12+ (50% chance). At 5th level, his monk has 8+(4.5*4)+(3*5)+(1*class level)= 46 hit points. The ogre should deal about 14 damage per hit with a large longspear, or 7 damage per round.

Now with two ogres (a CR 5 encounter), the ogres can easily flank (20 ft. reach with longspears) and deal an expected 16.8 damage per round to Drunk Monk vs the 9.8 DPR to my armored monk.

Examples are many. Kobolds and goblins would dismantle this poor guy so easily. Traps are bad for him too (his flat-footed AC is not so good at low levels). Likewise his damage at these levels is very bad unless he can A) get adjacent to his foe, B) flurry, C) flurry vs an enemy with bad AC.

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