and to think Ashiel provided the perfect fix for the monk. by granting it psionic manifesting. she loves the monk enough to attempt to fix it. most of us that ask paizo to do it are just a little too lazy to realize, that Ashiel provided the perfect piece.
Ashiel, will you work on a psionic version of the rogue in a similar vein to the monk?
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and to think Ashiel provided the perfect fix for the monk. by granting it psionic manifesting. she loves the monk enough to attempt to fix it. most of us that ask paizo to do it are just a little too lazy to realize, that Ashiel provided the perfect piece.
Ashiel, will you work on a psionic version of the rogue in a similar vein to the monk?
I don't like Psionics so no thank you.
I don't like Psionics so no thank you.and to think Ashiel provided the perfect fix for the monk. by granting it psionic manifesting. she loves the monk enough to attempt to fix it. most of us that ask paizo to do it are just a little too lazy to realize, that Ashiel provided the perfect piece.
Ashiel, will you work on a psionic version of the rogue in a similar vein to the monk?
Psionics is merely Magic With a Mana Pool instead of vancian slots. i would have preffered it as the basic spellcasting mechanic due to the fact it is easier to maintain immersion with it a pool of points than an arbritrary number of slots.
too metagamey to say "i'm out of first level spells, have one second level, 2 3rd level and 1 6th level slot left."
it would be easier to say "my mental stamina is exhausted, we need to rest." which would be easier to judge with a mana pool system than this vancian stuff.
also, power points, i find easier to track than spell slots.
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It is my imagination or the OPs of monk threads neven participate in the discussions?
I always do. Unfortunately they always seem to derail.
I feel like we have consensus there is a problem, and a lesser consensus the root of the problem is inability to hit, and some people who want to show off obscure rule knowledge dragging the whole thing down into derailing screaming matches on minutia.
If we can agree there is a problem (we have) and can generally agree on the root of the problem (we have) it would be awesome to discuss and test fixes to the problem.
Crazy I know!
And to think, the original problem was that monks couldn't flurry with just a temple sword.
Which, funnily enough, the Magus can do with spell combat and spellstrike.
I dropped my few cents worth in a different thread yesterday, but one quick thing to add. In address to the problem that monks can only do enough damage by sacrificing AC, the snake style feat does a great job ameliorating this deficiency. A monk should have decent wisdom. Put a skill rank in sense motive each level, and you should routinely have an AC on par with most other classes.
snake style is once per round. and if you intend to negate an attack every round, you might as well take crane style instead.
and to think Ashiel provided the perfect fix for the monk. by granting it psionic manifesting. she loves the monk enough to attempt to fix it. most of us that ask paizo to do it are just a little too lazy to realize, that Ashiel provided the perfect piece.
Ashiel, will you work on a psionic version of the rogue in a similar vein to the monk?
Thank you Shuriken Nekogami, I appreciate that. I've been rather busy at the moment, but since you asked I'll try to write up a psionic rogue in the meantime. They released a psychic rogue on the WotC site a long time ago (still up as far as I know) but it has some mechanical issues (like having powers on their class list that don't exist O.o).
Anything you're looking for in particular, or just a rogue with a dash of psionic mysticism? :)
I don't like Psionics so no thank you.
Clearly it was important enough for you to declare that you do not like it, instead of merely ignoring it, but like Shuriken notes, not important enough to do something about it.
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IMHO, monks are suffering from complete system shock. They're scattered all over the place, have a crisis of identity, interact very badly with effects all throughout the system, are MAD in the extreme, get very little out of their ki pool, are straddled with strange restrictions (both mechanically and roleplay-wise), are theoretically martials trapped in a caster's body.
There is no one golden fix for monks. You cannot find a keystone that is missing that when replaced will solve all the monk's problems. It is a multitude of things. It is not patching a leaky roof, it's installing new windows, putting down new floors, adding insulation to the walls, and then putting an energy saving roof on after the tornado of gameplay whisked it off like a thief in the night.
As an aside, I'm with Shallowsoul that monks shouldn't be fixed using psionics.
I don't mind the existence of psionic monk archetypes, but the core monk should not be psionic based.
Here's the thing about consumables:
No one is arguing that any class can be totally effective when they have help from other classes. If a Monk quaffs a potion of Mage Armor then he's now relying on his Mage friend to help him get through an encounter that he otherwise wouldn't be able to get through. It's good teamwork, this Monk+Mage combo. It doesn't even matter that this Mage isn't a person, but is instead a potion vial.
tl;dr - Relying on potions/consumables is relying on another class to buff you into decency. It means you aren't good enough alone, which is the entire problem with the Monk in the first place.
There are very, very few classes that are "good enough alone". That's why this is a team game, not a solo game. Taking out what's probably the most fundamental assumption about this game when comparing things is a bit silly.
Here's the thing about consumables:
No one is arguing that any class can be totally effective when they have help from other classes. If a Monk quaffs a potion of Mage Armor then he's now relying on his Mage friend to help him get through an encounter that he otherwise wouldn't be able to get through. It's good teamwork, this Monk+Mage combo. It doesn't even matter that this Mage isn't a person, but is instead a potion vial.tl;dr - Relying on potions/consumables is relying on another class to buff you into decency. It means you aren't good enough alone, which is the entire problem with the Monk in the first place.
Agreed. I had this issue with someone talking about monks before. Their answer for trying to match a Ranger's AC was to quaff a potion of mage armor every battle. That's hardcore addicted it is. An expensive habit. 50 gp, every hour, on the hour (or else you lose actions trying to get your fix). I am a very, very big fan of consumables and potions. Most regulars on the boards know this already. However, the point of consumables and potions is to grant you advantage, not to meet your quota.
There are very, very few classes that are "good enough alone". That's why this is a team game, not a solo game. Taking out what's probably the most fundamental assumption about this game when comparing things is a bit silly.
The issue is one of scope. Yes, when facing the BBEG, everyone needs their buffs. Teamwork game is about teamwork.
However, when facing those CR-1s (sometimes even CR-2s) that all the other classes can appropriately solo (as intended), the Monk still needs his potion fix.
However, when facing those CR-1s (sometimes even CR-2s) that all the other classes can appropriately solo (as intended)...
Ooooh, that's an interesting assertion. Do you have any links or resources about that that I could read? Especially the intended part. I always figured it was lower.
This is true but only to an extent. Sometimes you may be required to fly but of course not all classes have this ability so drinking a "Potion of Fly" is required to meet your quota.However, the point of consumables and potions is to grant you advantage, not to meet your quota.
My point still stands. You are using a potion to gain an advantage (flight) over your peers (non-flyers). If you have to buff just to function, you are a failure. Incidentally, it is a fallacy that martials have to fly to succeed. Ranged weapons are available in the game as early as 1st level, and flying generally means you have no cover. You do the math.
But you're response is fairly asinine. Gaining an entire movement form to deal with a specific circumstance (need to fly) is clearly not the same sort of dependency as drinking a consumable that gives you a static buff just to get your statistics to serviceable.
For example. With a potion of mage armor, a potion of barkskin, and a potion of shield of faith, an elixir of hiding, an elixir of seeing, a potion of enlarge person, bull's strength, and aid, my commoner is just as good at fighting and sneaking as this 1st level Ranger right here, with similar to-hit modifiers, similar AC, and similar skill modifiers (perhaps better even!). However, that in no way -- by any stretch of the imagination -- suggest that commoners are even in the same ballpark as rangers.
As an aside, I'm with Shallowsoul that monks shouldn't be fixed using psionics.
I don't mind the existence of psionic monk archetypes, but the core monk should not be psionic based.
Somewhat inclined to agree on this unless Psionics become a part of the core rules. Much as I love psionics, having the monk be psionic when there's no other psionic material in the book would be awkward.
Does bear mentioning that DSP's Psionic material includes a Psychic Warrior archetype that is basically a psionic monk.
Male Dwarf
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +22
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Defense
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AC 30, touch 25, flat-footed 28
hp 127 (13 HD)
Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +17 (+2 poison and spells or spell-like abilities)
Defensive Abilities Improved Evasion, Wyrmscourged(+1 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and on saving throws against the extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of dragons.)
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +18/+13 (2d8+8/19-20x2)
Flurry Unarmed Strike +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (2d8+8/19-20x2)
Stunning Fist(14/Day; Fort DC 24; Choose: Stun 1 round, Fatigued, Sickened 1 minute, or Staggered 1d6+1 rounds.)
Mantis Style(While using this style gain +2 bonus to Stunning Fist DC and +2 bonus on unarmed attack rolls while using Stunning Fist attempts)
Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 5
Base Atk +9; CMB +21(+2 Grapple); CMD 39 (+2 Grapple, Reposition; +4 Bull Rush; +6 Trip)
Feats: Ironhide, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Mantis Style, Fast Drinker, Mobility, Mantis Wisdom, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike), Medusa's Wrath, Improved Critical(Unarmed Strike), Ability Focus(Stunning Fist),
Skills: Acrobatics +10(+22 jumping), Climb +10, Knowledge(History) +4, Knowledge(Religion) +5, Knowledge(Arcana) +6(+8 Dragons) Perception +22, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +16, Swim +10
Traits: Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith,
Languages: Common, Dwarven,
SQ: AC Bonus +4, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump(1 Ki), Ki Pool(12 points), Maneuver Training, Slow Fall 60', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sickened, Staggered), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body(1 Ki*), Abundant Step(1 Ki*), Stability, Slow and Steady, Greed,
Gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists(+3), Ring of Protection(+3), Ring of Ki Mastery*(2 Ki Stored; Reduces cost of Ki powers by 1 point(minimum 1)as long as 2 Ki are stored; Provides a +2 bonus to CMD against Grapple, Trip, Reposition as long as 1 Ki stored.), Monk's Robe, Belt of Giant Strength(+4), Bracers of Armor(+4), Headband of Inspired Wisdom(+4), Cloak of Resistance(+2), Handy Haversack Bag, (8) Clay Jugs(filled with Dwarven Stout; each jug contains 8 pints; 1 pint=a tankard for Drunken Ki)
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Special Abilities
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Drunken Ki (Su)
At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The monk can have a maximum number of drunken ki points equal to 1 plus one additional point for every two levels thereafter (5th, 7th, and so on). The monk can gain this temporary ki even before he gains a ki pool at 4th level. These drunken ki points last for 1 hour or until spent, whichever is shorter. As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Drunken Strength (Su)
At 5th level, a drunken master can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to inflict 1d6 extra points of damage on a single successful melee attack. The monk can choose to apply the damage after the attack roll is made. At 10th level, the monk may spend 2 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 2d6. At 15th level, the monk may spend 3 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 3d6. At 20th level, the monk may spend 4 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 4d6. The monk must have at least 1 drunken ki point to use this ability.
Drunken Courage (Su)
At 11th level, a drunken master is immune to fear as long as he has at least 1 point of drunken ki.
Drunken Resilience (Ex)
At 13th level, a drunken master gains DR 1/— as long as he has at least 1 point of drunken ki. At 16th level, the DR increases to 2/—. At 19th level, it increases to 3/—.
HP 180 (I have 127)
AC 28 (Check i have a 30)
High/Low Attack +22 (Check i get a +22 with a Stunning Fist attempt. Otherwise i'm at a +20)
High/Low Average Damage 60/45 (Check. I have 17 with a single punch, 85 with Flurry, and 119 with Medusa's Wrath. Using a Ki point i can add another 17.)
Primary Ability DC 21 (Check. I have a 26 when using Stunning Fist)
Good/Poor Save 16/12 (Check. My best is a 17 and lowest is a 12)
Also this Monk can use Ki points just about every round thanks to Drunken Ki and my large pool of Ki.
Read through the thread again. It's already been covered.
Well then could you at least link to the part where the developers said all classes are meant to solo a monster whose CR is 1 less than their level? Because that sounds really interesting and I haven't run across it yet.
This is true but only to an extent. Sometimes you may be required to fly but of course not all classes have this ability so drinking a "Potion of Fly" is required to meet your quota.However, the point of consumables and potions is to grant you advantage, not to meet your quota.
My point still stands. You are using a potion to gain an advantage (flight) over your peers (non-flyers). If you have to buff just to function, you are a failure. Incidentally, it is a fallacy that martials have to fly to succeed. Ranged weapons are available in the game as early as 1st level, and flying generally means you have no cover. You do the math.
But you're response is fairly asinine. Gaining an entire movement form to deal with a specific circumstance (need to fly) is clearly not the same sort of dependency as drinking a consumable that gives you a static buff just to get your statistics to serviceable.
For example. With a potion of mage armor, a potion of barkskin, and a potion of shield of faith, an elixir of hiding, an elixir of seeing, a potion of enlarge person, bull's strength, and aid, my commoner is just as good at fighting and sneaking as this 1st level Ranger right here, with similar to-hit modifiers, similar AC, and similar skill modifiers (perhaps better even!). However, that in no way -- by any stretch of the imagination -- suggest that commoners are even in the same ballpark as rangers.
You don't think your being a little ridiculous?
Having a Monk drink a Potion of Mage Armor isn't that absurd. It lasts for an hour for 50 gold.
No one is saying that at all times the Monk will have that bonus but at early levels it is a affordable way to have +4 armor compared to alternative Bracers of Armor.
Even cheaper would be to purchase a Wand of Mage Armor and have a buddy use it upon you when you expect to encounter trouble.
Another problem with consumables is you need to consume them - if the party get surprised, you may not have that time.
I dropped my few cents worth in a different thread yesterday, but one quick thing to add. In address to the problem that monks can only do enough damage by sacrificing AC, the snake style feat does a great job ameliorating this deficiency. A monk should have decent wisdom. Put a skill rank in sense motive each level, and you should routinely have an AC on par with most other classes.
...Vs one attack per round, assuming an average roll. Roll a '1' and your AC is bad against all attacks, not just all but one attacks. Snake Style is good, with Snake Fang it's excellent - if you are attacked in melee by something that will miss you, without reach.
@Brain-in-a-Jar
We deliberately avoided archetypes because many archetypes are actually reasonable. The issue is with the core monk.
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"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 10th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:21
Cha:5
Init:+2
AC: 25
29 (Versus Giants)
HP: 10d8 + 10
Spd: 50
Fort: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +14 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)
Attack: Flurry: +14/+14/+9/+9 Spend a Ki Point for another +14: 2d6 + 5
Kamas: +12/+12 Spend Ki Point +12: 1d6 +3
Feats: Mobility, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 20 10/day (Fatigued & Sickened), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Spring Attack, Combat Expertise,
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic & Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity, Wholeness of Body,
Skills: Acrobatics: +10, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +15, Sense Motive: +12, Stealth: +11, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +4, Cloak of Resistance +2, Masterwork Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Silver Kama, Monk’s Robes, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2,
I still have three feats to choose so as soon as I decide which ones to take I will post them.
Yeah, Ashiel did a good job with that class, but it isn't a monk IMO. Its a psychic warrior archetype on crack. Again, my opinion, as a stand alone class I like it, even if I'm not 100% sure about how much manifesting ability it has.
I know the devs have pretty well stated their design intentions for a monk fix. I know a whole rewrite of the class within those limits they are setting isn't viable, and a rewrite really isn't needed unless you feel the monk needs to be something other than a monk (r.e. Ashiels creation, it isn't a monk, its a psionic class masquerading as a monk).
If it were getting rewritten, I'd rather see the class keep the basic (and I do mean basic here) mechanics it has now, and rework the abilities that don't work, redo how a monk uses ki and for what, and turn them into a unique class all of their own, not a reflavored something else.
My 2 pence.
"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 10th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:21
Cha:5
Init:+2
AC: 24
25 (Using Dodge)
28 (Versus Giants)
29 (Using Dodge vs Giants)
HP: 10d8 + 10
Spd: 50
Fort: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +14 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)
Attack: Flurry: +14/+14/+9/+9 Spend a Ki Point for another +14: 2d6 + 5
Kamas: +12/+12 Spend Ki Point +12: 1d6 +3
Feats: Mobility, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 20 4/day (Fatigued & Sickened), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Spring Attack, Combat Expertise,
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic & Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity, Wholeness of Body,
Skills: Acrobatics: +10, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +15, Sense Motive: +12, Stealth: +11, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +4, Cloak of Resistance +2, Masterwork Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Silver Kama, Monk’s Robes, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2,I still have three feats to choose so as soon as I decide which ones to take I will post them.
Do you even know what your doing? I'm not trying to be rude. But;
1. You don't "use" dodge it's a static bonus.
2. Stunning Fist should be 10/Day
Also:
HP 130 (You have 58 HP that less than half)
AC 24 (You have 25 so check.
High/Low Attack +18 (Your highest is a +14 not really close)
High/Low Average Damage 45/33 (48 with Flurry check)
Primary Ability DC 19 (20 with Stunning Fist check)
Good/Poor Save 13/9 (14/11 so check)
Overall i think that HP is going to make your Monk a liability in combat.
@Brain-in-a-Jar
We deliberately avoided archetypes because many archetypes are actually reasonable. The issue is with the core monk.
I was building it by Wraithstrikes standards.
20 Points
13th level
140,000 gold only using 33% on a single item
Using Core UM UC APG
Plus it helps show the difference between a Core Monk and one one that's allowed other books.
I'll post a 13th Core Monk soon.
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"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 10th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:21
Cha:5
Init:+2
AC: 24
25 (Using Dodge)
28 (Versus Giants)
29 (Using Dodge vs Giants)
HP: 10d8 + 10
Spd: 50
Fort: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +14 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)
Attack: Flurry: +14/+14/+9/+9 Spend a Ki Point for another +14: 2d6 + 5
Kamas: +12/+12 Spend Ki Point +12: 1d6 +3
Feats: Mobility, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 20 4/day (Fatigued & Sickened), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Spring Attack, Combat Expertise,
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic & Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity, Wholeness of Body,
Skills: Acrobatics: +10, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +15, Sense Motive: +12, Stealth: +11, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +4, Cloak of Resistance +2, Masterwork Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Silver Kama, Monk’s Robes, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2,I still have three feats to choose so as soon as I decide which ones to take I will post them.
Do you even know what your doing? I'm not trying to be rude. But;
1. You don't "use" dodge it's a static bonus.
2. Stunning Fist should be 10/DayAlso:
HP 130 (You have 58 HP that less than half)
AC 24 (You have 25 so check.
High/Low Attack +18 (Your highest is a +14 not really close)
High/Low Average Damage 45/33 (48 with Flurry check)
Primary Ability DC 19 (20 with Stunning Fist check)
Good/Poor Save 13/9 (14/11 so check)Overall i think that HP is going to make your Monk a liability in combat.
Sometimes I still have 3.5 on the brain when it comes to dodge, used to have to declare an opponent.
I thought as much.
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"Dugan Stoneknuckles" 10th level Dwarven Monk (20 point buy)
Str:16
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:21
Cha:5
Init:+2
AC: 24
25 (Using Dodge)
28 (Versus Giants)
29 (Using Dodge vs Giants)
HP: 10d8 + 10
Spd: 50
Fort: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Poison)
Ref: +11 (+2 vs spells, spell like and Posion)
Will: +14 (+2 vs spells, spelllike and Posion)(+2 vs Enchantment spells and effects)
Attack: Flurry: +14/+14/+9/+9 Spend a Ki Point for another +14: 2d6 + 5
Kamas: +12/+12 Spend Ki Point +12: 1d6 +3
Feats: Mobility, Dodge, Extra Ki, Stunning Fist DC: 20 4/day (Fatigued & Sickened), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Spring Attack, Combat Expertise,
Ki Pool: 9
Abilities: Darkvision 60ft, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Training, Ki Pool (Magic & Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft, Purity of Body, High Jump, Defensive Training, Greed, Hatred, Hardy, Stability, Stonecutting, Weapon Familiarity, Wholeness of Body,
Skills: Acrobatics: +10, Climb: +3, Escape Artist: +7, Perception: +15, Sense Motive: +12, Stealth: +11, Swim: +3.
Items: Belt of Giant Str +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +4, Cloak of Resistance +2, Masterwork Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Silver Kama, Monk’s Robes, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2,I still have three feats to choose so as soon as I decide which ones to take I will post them.
Do you even know what your doing? I'm not trying to be rude. But;
1. You don't "use" dodge it's a static bonus.
2. Stunning Fist should be 10/DayAlso:
HP 130 (You have 58 HP that less than half)
AC 24 (You have 25 so check.
High/Low Attack +18 (Your highest is a +14 not really close)
High/Low Average Damage 45/33 (48 with Flurry check)
Primary Ability DC 19 (20 with Stunning Fist check)
Good/Poor Save 13/9 (14/11 so check)Overall i think that HP is going to make your Monk a liability in combat.
I've been looking at a good many creatures with a CR 10 and the Monk is at an average of 50% to hit. AC 21 to 24 is what I've been seeing.
My Monk may end up spending a good bit of Ki in combat but he can still do some damage. 2d6+5/2d6+5/2d6+5/2d6+5 spend some Ki and add another 2d6+5.
You don't think your being a little ridiculous?
Having a Monk drink a Potion of Mage Armor isn't that absurd. It lasts for an hour for 50 gold.
No one is saying that at all times the Monk will have that bonus but at early levels it is a affordable way to have +4 armor compared to alternative Bracers of Armor.
Even cheaper would be to purchase a Wand of Mage Armor and have a buddy use it upon you when you expect to encounter trouble.
No, I'm not being ridiculous, I'm using an extreme example to make the fallacy more obvious. Yes, it's not AS BAD as a commoner matching a ranger with consumables, but the underlying problem is still there. Let me give you an example.
At 1st level with 15 point buy, a Ranger can comfortably afford a 14 Dexterity. Chainmail armor (+6 AC), and a heavy wooden shield (+2 AC), and a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, and a reach weapon. Walking around during their adventure, the ranger has 18 AC, and 20 AC when wielding his shield. His flat-footed AC is pretty awesome too. He does this while also being able to have a 16-18 Strength, and decent stats in Con and Wisdom.
The monk would need a 14 Dex, and 14 Wisdom, and a potion of mage armor to match the ranger's normal unbuffed AC. If he wanted to match his shield AC, then the monk needs a 16 Dex and Wisdom. The monk is already loosing, and is spending 50 gp he does not have (monks don't even begin with that much gold). He has less damage, less AC, and less options than the Ranger does and he has this at the cost of a potion to boot.
Now those potions last 1 hour. Pretty decent. In a case where you know an enemy is about, or you're crawling a dungeon, that might work out for you pretty good. If you're wandering around, or are the subject of an ambush, or whatever else, then you have issues.
Also, for the same investment (50 gp) our ranger could quaff a potion of shield of faith for an additional +2 AC above and beyond his norm. This is an example of using consumables to gain an edge, not meet your quota. In this case the ranger uses his money to go beyond the average (fighters, rangers, and paladins can all easily support an 18-20 AC at 1st level). The monk is addicted to pots to try and merely keep up.
There also comes a new problem. Caster levels. Higher caster level potions or wands are more expensive. You can't rely on these for very long, or else you'll need to get into the habit of having to re-apply every buff after someone uses dispel magic on you. By mid-levels dispelling is a real threat (many villainous outsiders have it or greater dispel at will). If you have your wizard friend spend a spell slot every day to buff you with mage armor you are now a drain on your party because you are requiring other members to sacrifice their functionality to make yours seem passable.
EDIT: Also for the same price of a wand of mage armor, you could have gotten a wand of enlarge person, reduce person, magic weapon, magic missile, entangle, silent image, cure light wounds, protection from evil, grease, shield of faith, bless, resist energy, lesser restoration...
All things that would be more useful to the party at-large than trying to help you feel better about being bad.
Ashiel...I gotta ask...was that monk the guy brought even slightly optimized?He sure thought he was optimized.
(...more...)I think if the player took just a little bit of Ashiel's basic advice (that is to make use of consumables) then his monk would've fared somewhat better. A potion of see invisibility and a potion of fly, and a potion of invisibility for himself, should be standard gear on any level 10 monk build.
Sure, I've not seen his build - so I would not be surprised if he'd lose against his 3 challengers anyway - but he should at least have had a "fighting chance" (which I would translate into winning 1 fight out of 3 or 4).
As is... I think he optimized for PFS or similar challenges; which require less optimization. I enjoy PFS scenarios - as they tend to be varied enough for my monk characters to cope just fine and contribute frequently.
** spoiler omitted **...
Why didn't the bbeg save the monk for last?
On the topic of people starting monk threads and not coming back I think the issue is that they see all of the proof against them, and realize they have no defense.
As for Brain in the Jar's monk thread I did give him those standards because earlier I had said that certain archetypes were decent.
The idea was to then challenge someone to build a decent monk using core rules alone, to prove that it was the archetypes holding the monk up, and the core version was not up to par.
and to think Ashiel provided the perfect fix for the monk. by granting it psionic manifesting. she loves the monk enough to attempt to fix it. most of us that ask paizo to do it are just a little too lazy to realize, that Ashiel provided the perfect piece.
Ashiel, will you work on a psionic version of the rogue in a similar vein to the monk?
Thank you Shuriken Nekogami, I appreciate that. I've been rather busy at the moment, but since you asked I'll try to write up a psionic rogue in the meantime. They released a psychic rogue on the WotC site a long time ago (still up as far as I know) but it has some mechanical issues (like having powers on their class list that don't exist O.o).
Anything you're looking for in particular, or just a rogue with a dash of psionic mysticism? :)
I don't like Psionics so no thank you.Clearly it was important enough for you to declare that you do not like it, instead of merely ignoring it, but like Shuriken notes, not important enough to do something about it.
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IMHO, monks are suffering from complete system shock. They're scattered all over the place, have a crisis of identity, interact very badly with effects all throughout the system, are MAD in the extreme, get very little out of their ki pool, are straddled with strange restrictions (both mechanically and roleplay-wise), are theoretically martials trapped in a caster's body.
There is no one golden fix for monks. You cannot find a keystone that is missing that when replaced will solve all the monk's problems. It is a multitude of things. It is not patching a leaky roof, it's installing new windows, putting down new floors, adding insulation to the walls, and then putting an energy saving roof on after the tornado of gameplay whisked it off like a thief in the night.
a rogue who uses psionic powers to augment his/her roguishness. other than a few ninja dissapearance powers for assassination, i was considering stuff meant to augment the skill portion, for things like gathering information, escaping scrying, charming minds, and a good list of general utility powers. kind of beguiler meets unseen seer.
Male Dwarf
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +22
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Defense
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AC 28,touch 24, flat-footed 26
hp 140 (13 HD)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +18 (+2 poison and spells or spell-like abilities; +2 enchantments)
Defensive Abilities Improved Evasion, Defensive Training(+4 dodge bonus against giant subtype)
Immune: Disease, Poison
SR: 23
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +19/+14 (2d8+9/19-20x2)
Flurry Unarmed Strike +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (2d8+9/19-20x2)
Critical Focus (+4 attack to confirm critical confirmation)
Stunning Fist(13/Day; Fort DC 24; Choose: Stun 1 round, Fatigued, Sickened 1 minute, or Staggered 1d6+1 rounds.)
Medusa's Wrath(Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 5
Base Atk +9; CMB +22(+2 Grapple); CMD 39 (+4 Bull Rush, Trip)
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike), Medusa's Wrath, Improved Critical(Unarmed Strike), Ability Focus(Stunning Fist), Critical Focus
Skills: Acrobatics +10(+22 jumping), Climb +10, Knowledge(History) +5, Knowledge(Religion) +5, Perception +22, Sense Motive +22, Stealth +16, Swim +10
Languages: Common, Dwarven,
SQ: AC Bonus +4, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump(1 Ki), Ki Pool(12 points), Maneuver Training, Slow Fall 60', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sickened, Staggered), Unarmed Strike (2d8), Wholeness of Body(2 Ki), Abundant Step(2 Ki), Stability, Slow and Steady, Greed, Stonecunning, Hatred, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul,
Gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists(+3), Ring of Protection(+2), Monk's Robe, Belt of Giant Strength(+6), Bracers of Armor(+4), Headband of Inspired Wisdom(+4), Cloak of Resistance(+2), Clay Jug(filled with Dwarven Stout)
HP 180 (I have 140)
AC 28 (Check i have a 28)
High/Low Attack +22 (Close i have a +21)
High/Low Average Damage 60/45 (Check. 90 with Flurry and 126 with Medusa's Wrath)
Primary Ability DC 21 (Check. I have a 24 when using Stunning Fist)
Good/Poor Save 16/12 (Check. My best is a 18 and lowest is a 13.)
There it didn't really change that much but i replaced anything that wasn't Core.
Now those potions last 1 hour. Pretty decent. In a case where you know an enemy is about, or you're crawling a dungeon, that might work out for you pretty good. If you're wandering around, or are the subject of an ambush, or whatever else, then you have issues.
That's how i was saying to use them. I'm not assuming i have them all the time. But it is much cheaper to drink a potion than purchase Bracers of Armor. It's only good for when i know i'm getting into an encounter.
I suppose i could purchase the Bracers of Armor(+1) when i can and still use potions to "gain an advantage" of +3 more armor than normal. Is that better.
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Somebody please find me that beautiful Ashiel rant about the cross-dressing monk,wetting himself in the corner while applying lipstick as the oiled mountain of muscle barbarian bolts in leaps thru the air and axe/claw/axe/bites the beast tearing it to shreds and then casually walks by the monk and says "hey great job man, better luck next time.." or some such thing as that. It Was an AWESOME RANT!!!
Ashiel seems quite biased based upon her personal experience's towards the Monk.
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Somebody please find me that beautiful Ashiel rant about the cross-dressing monk,wetting himself in the corner while applying lipstick as the oiled mountain of muscle barbarian bolts in leaps thru the air and axe/claw/axe/bites the beast tearing it to shreds and then casually walks by the monk and says "hey great job man, better luck next time.." or some such thing as that. It Was an AWESOME RANT!!!
Because you asked nicely good sir. ^-^
And when someone comes up and says...
1. Hey, listen your math is wrong because the Ranger has more stats.
2. You're not being fair, because the monk could deal more damage if he pumped strength.
3. You could have mage armor!Well, that does make me facepalm a bit. The first one I'll excuse. It was a typo, and I guess if you weren't paying that much attention to the math (but if you're going to argue, why the hell wouldn't you?), so I'll call this one my fault. But the second two? Pure head shake material right there. I already addressed both and why you suffer if you go down those paths, or the problems therein.
And I noted several times that this is monk trying hard vs a guy with a sword. Not a guy with a special sword. Not a guy whose buffed up. He's not even using his ranger spell lead blades (lead blades brings his 1d8 longsword to 2d6, and his 2d6 greatsword to 3d6 damage, and if we want to talk about what relying on other PCs to function includes then we'll take enlarge person instead, thanks, because that will turn us into an engine of terrible destruction with 3d6 longswords and 4d6 greatswords). So we can keep pushing the envelope, but we're already talking about buffing the monk to keep up with the ranger without buffs. Exactly how much more do we need here again?
Then there was this joke of an argument about monks being for combat maneuvers like it was a class feature or something. Anyone who wants to take a moment to count 1 + 2 + 3 could probably figure out that the Monk's combat maneuvers aren't actually any higher than any other full martial class. The NPC warrior class (those guys who are considered to be worth about 1/2 a class level) can match them. Barbarians make monks cry when it comes to mobile combat maneuvers.
I mean barbarians be all like "Hah, I'm made of muscle and I love to wrestle, and I move fast and my speed actually stacks with haste", and then all of a sudden they're like "RAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHH!!" and then they jump like 30 feet onto something twice their size, grabbing them with their teeth and throwing them to the ground in some sort of super angry enraged judo death throw, tearing them apart with their bear hands and 22 strength modifier, dealing unarmed damage, dealing axe damage, claw damage, bite damage, dignity and shame damage. And while this is happening, the monk is standing in the corner, knees shaking, putting on red lipstick and mascara, wearing women's underwear as he struggles with a crisis of identity as he stares confused at the oiled up body builder that oozes testosterone and win from every orifice of his body and bathed in the sweet pheromones of his dead enemies' blood, sweat, and tears.
The barbarian pats the monk on the shoulder. "Good game dude. Oh, I think you spilled your drink." he says to the monk as he goes by. The monk begins to cry, because he didn't spill his drink. He begins to cry because he knows he will never be able to compare to that. Knowing that will have to continue dressing as the Barbarian during his special alone time, so he can pet and caress an effigy of himself that is eerily similar to a voodoo doll, while whispering sweet nothings like "it's okay monk, everyone knows you're really better at combat maneuvers than that big, bulging, oiled, hot, sexy shoeless god of war. Now, let's speak no more of this, because I have an oil of grease in my bad pocket and my hands are full".
Ashiel seems quite biased based upon her personal experience's towards the Monk.
Yes. Clearly I am biased against the monk. 12 years of dealing with monks since 3.0, countless hours spent discussing, dissecting, comparing, and doing the math behind it, mirrored by countless sessions of gaming, various friends of different backgrounds and levels of proficiency playing them, and so on and so forth in an ever evolving game is clearly biased, unfounded, and without evidence or merit.
I mean, sure, I've shown through this radical new age pseudoscience called mathematics the glaring problems with monks. Evaluated them in a variety of encounters, situations, and environments, and compared them to their peers, monsters, traps, spells, save DCs, and so forth. None of this stuff is actually good evidence by any means of course not. Just some sort of flimsy excuse to pass of my bias against a class I actually have no thematic issues with, would like to see work, am playing a revised version of in an online game.
You caught me sir. Let's give you a detective badge.
That evokes shrieking internal laughter from me, I want to save this post to show my bud, was that originally in this thread? by the way my friend likes monks alot, myself not so much and this captures nicely how I feel about the class. Thank you very much Ash!
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Well then Ashiel, how about actually contributing to the discussion with a build of a Monk or something.
As riveting as your personal experience is to me it doesn't quite do the job as facts and numbers for me.(I also don't care if you've already done it. Post it here or post else where, since your not helping anything with your cute little stories.)
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** spoiler omitted **...
HP 180 (I have 140)
AC 28 (Check i have a 28)High/Low Attack +22 (Close i have a +21)
High/Low Average Damage 60/45 (Check. 90 with Flurry and 126 with Medusa's Wrath)
Primary Ability DC 21 (Check. I have a 24 when using Stunning Fist)
Good/Poor Save 16/12 (Check. My best is a 18 and lowest is a 13.)
There it didn't really change that much but i replaced anything that wasn't Core.
Better.
Thanks Brain. Still doesn't quite get there, IMHO since things have to go right for it to work out, but gets pretty close situationaly.
These posts really add to the discussion.