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You remember these little guys from 3.5, right? Just throwing this out in the air. I have a character now that is one. Here's what was houseruled for the campaign.
Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits: Goliath characters gain a +4 to strength, a +2 to Constitution, a -2 to Dexterity, and a -2 to Intelligence. Goliaths are very tough and powerful, but large, clumsy, and often uneducated.
Type: Goliaths are Humanoid creatures with both the human and giant subtypes.
Size: Goliaths are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Goliaths have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Common and Giant. Goliaths with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Gnoll, Goblin, and Orc.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Mountaineer: Goliaths gain a +2 on Acrobatics and Climb checks because of their generally mountainous homes.
Shunned: Goliaths receive a -2 penalty to all Diplomacy checks. While Goliaths do not have difficulty finding a way to connect with other people, people have trouble trusting them.
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision: Goliaths can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Other Racial Traits
Giant's Grip: Despite being medium in size, Goliaths are nearly large size category and are incredibly powerful for even their size. Goliaths may wield weapons as if they are one size category larger than they actually are.
Giant Build: Goliaths are much larger than humans, therefore they are treated differently. Giants are considered large for the purposes of resisting Bull Rush and Grapple attempts.
I also considered making a feat for the class called "Improved Giant Build" that allowed Goliaths to be considered large for the purposes of performing Bull Rush and Grapple maneuvers.
You remember these little guys from 3.5, right? . . . .You remember the precursor by many years, the half giant, right? And that they've been converted to pathfinder because they were open content, right?
Then you have the half-ogre (because somebody was bound to do it)... but lets reinvent the wheel, shall we?
...
- +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence: Goliaths are immensely strong and hardy, but their bulk makes them less agile and their culture stress survival over education. (6 RP)
- Medium: Goliaths are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. (0 RP)
- Normal Speed: Goliaths have a base speed of 30 feet. (0 RP)
- Powerful Build: The physical stature of Goliaths lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a Goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Goliath is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A Goliath is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. (?7 RP)
- Low-Light Vision: Goliaths can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. (1 RP)
- Giant
Yeah, when I made it, there was no race builder. I made it probably 6 months ago (for what it's worth).
Additionally, I was aware that they existed before 3.5, but 3.5 is the closest D&D system to Pathfinder there is. So I related it there.
Anyhow, we decided the 6 rp stat set up was alright considering it simplified down to a single +2 somewhere. I know that bonus to strength is pretty huge, but it really MAKES the character. Flavor and all that. I do more damage than anyone in the party, but I'm also rather sluggish and easy to hit.
Honestly, I don't think Powerful Build is HUGE in terms of game power. If you wanted to word the effects of wielding large weapons differently, you would just say "Goliaths decrease the penalty for wielding weapons too large for them by 2. So, if a Goliath is wielding a large weapon, they receive no penalty on attacks, and would receive only a -2 for wielding a huge weapon."
Along with all the combat maneuver stuff. Ignoring a -2 in penalties seems like a lot less of a big deal than being able to wield weapons like an ogre. At least in how it sounds. I might would evaluate it as being 2 rp for wielding weapons as large (similar to... Say... A +2 Reflex/AC against traps. Titan Mauler Barbarians replace Trap Sense with Massive Weapons, which gets rid of this penalty as well.) And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a +2 to Reflex/AC against traps is a 2 rp ability. Then the CM stuff might be 2. Honestly, the only time it would matter is if a halfling tried to grapple you or trip you. Which is a semi-big deal. But not more than a static feat.
So, if you look at my build, then I count 15 rp.
Stats (6)
+2 Acrobatics (2)
+2 Climb (2)
There is no racial point equivalent to a -2 in a skill. So I'll call it a -1 RP (Not as rewarding as a +2 is costly, but still something.)
-2 Diplomacy (-1)
Darkvision (2)
Giant's Grip (2)
Giant Build (2) (I also forgot to add armor costing double because of this, but I won't give RP back for it anyhow.)
I could change Darkvision to Low-Light to make it 14, the same as Drow. Then I'm could easily take one of the +2s to a skill off to be around Dwarf and Elf point values.
You also have to think that the RP system is... Flawed to say the least. Looking over it for the first real time now, they have humans at a RP value of 9. I think that's hilarious. Humans are the best core, or otherwise, race. If I made Atlas (my Goliath) a human instead, I feel like he'd be marginally more powerful. I don't know, but yeah. 14 or 15 RP as I have it written.
. . . Honestly, I don't think Powerful Build is HUGE in terms of game power. . . Along with all the combat maneuver stuff. Ignoring a -2 in penalties seems like a lot less of a big deal than being able to wield weapons like an ogre. At least in how it sounds. . .Powerful build lets you have some of the good benefits of being large and some of the good benefits of being medium.
No -1 to AC or -4 to stealth or -2 to fly. No swallow whole by large creatures. +1 bonus on CMB/CMD. Large size weapons (which is usually on 1 or 2 more points of damage on average than it's medium counterpart, but not always)... there is a lot of little things that go into powerful build. Granted, it's not quite as good as in 3.5 because of the changes to size modifiers, but it's still pretty good.
Large Creatures can't normally swallow medium creatures whole, but I know what you mean. Also, medium creatures can hold large weapons without much of a problem (a -2), and Powerful Build treats you as large, but doesn't make you large for Combat Maneuvers, therefore no +1 to CMB or CMD. I think I also gave the Goliath a -2 to stealth in the game I'm running because logic.
According to the Race Builder, a +2 to a skill is 2 RP, even if it is Sense Motive.
Lastly, I really like those abilities you came up with. Perhaps they could be implemented as alternative traits for them race.
This is probably how I'd do goliaths for Pathfinder:
Goliath Racial Traits+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Dexterity: Goliaths are massively muscled, but their bulk sometimes gets in the way when they're trying to be nimble.
Large: Goliaths are Large creatures take a –1 size penalty to their AC, a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a –4 size penalty on Stealth checks. A Goliath takes up a space that is 10 feet by 10 feet and has a reach of 5 feet.
Normal Speed: Goliaths have a base speed of 30 feet.
Humanoid: Goliaths are humanoids with the giant subtype.
Mountaineer: Goliaths are automatically acclimated to life at high altitudes and are immune to altitude sickness and do not lose their Dexterity bonus to AC when making Climb checks or Acrobatics checks to cross narrow or slippery surfaces.
Jumper: Because goliaths practically live on the ledges and cliffs of the most forbidding mountains, they are particularly adept at negotiating mountain hazards. Goliaths are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump
Non-verbal Communication: When speaking to one another, goliaths tend to augment their verbal communication with subtle body language. They are likewise able to "read" the unintentional body language of others. They gain a +2 bonus to Sense Motive checks.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Common and Gol-Kaa. Goliaths with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, and Terran.
Using the ARG, it works out to a 14 point race:
Goliaths
Type
Humanoid (giant) 0 RP
Size
Large 7 RP
Base Speed
Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers
Flexible (+2 Str, +2 Con) 2 RP
Languages
Standard 0 RP
Racial Traits
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Skill Bonus (+2 Sense Motive) 2 RP
Movement Racial Traits
Jumper 2 RP
Mountaineer 1 RP
Offense Racial Traits
Total 13 RP
Which doesn't seem too unbalancing; the only thing it's missing from the 3E writeup is the monstrous humanoid type and the no penalty to accelerated climb speed. The monstrous humanoid type was always pretty arbitrary (and I think it had more to do with the Giant type from 3E that got changed to a subtype in Pathfinder than anything), and I might consider tossing in the accelerated climb thing for free; at most, it's a 1 RP ability, I'd say.
Some nitpickers might complain that they shouldn't be able to take Jumper with a -2 Dex penalty, but I figure they already had it, and the ARG rules are guidelines, not hard coded.
. . . Honestly, I don't think Powerful Build is HUGE in terms of game power. . . Along with all the combat maneuver stuff. Ignoring a -2 in penalties seems like a lot less of a big deal than being able to wield weapons like an ogre. At least in how it sounds. . .Powerful build lets you have some of the good benefits of being large and some of the good benefits of being medium.
No -1 to AC or -4 to stealth or -2 to fly. No swallow whole by large creatures. +1 bonus on CMB/CMD. Large size weapons (which is usually on 1 or 2 more points of damage on average than it's medium counterpart, but not always)... there is a lot of little things that go into powerful build. Granted, it's not quite as good as in 3.5 because of the changes to size modifiers, but it's still pretty good.
Large Creatures can't normally swallow medium creatures whole, but I know what you mean. Also, medium creatures can hold large weapons without much of a problem (a -2), and Powerful Build treats you as large, but doesn't make you large for Combat Maneuvers, therefore no +1 to CMB or CMD. I think I also gave the Goliath a -2 to stealth in the game I'm running because logic.
According to the Race Builder, a +2 to a skill is 2 RP, even if it is Sense Motive.
Lastly, I really like those abilities you came up with. Perhaps they could be implemented as alternative traits for them race.
had you given any thought about maybe making powerful build have the prerequisite large size and have it simply give back a couple points? it might make the language a little bit easier to swallow for some people. in my experience the spell enlarge person has been used for more than a simple damage upgrade and powerful build takes many benefits away to balance the lack of penalties.
had you given any thought about maybe making powerful build have the prerequisite large size and have it simply give back a couple points? it might make the language a little bit easier to swallow for some people. in my...
actually it was intended to reimburse for some the cost for large size and became similar in method to the quadruped trait. really its just about language in trait, sometimes its easier to compare two things when you judge what is taken away rather than what one gains over the other (especially when the two subjects are directly related). by the way enlarge person doesn't give a flat bonus to hit and damage, in fact it actually gives a -1 to hit. not sure if you were just counting the weapon damage increase average as the flat bonus, because you then stated it in the next sentence.
edit: by the way i was stating powerful build as the OP uses it, not the original sorry for the misunderstanding.
Sorry. I didn't include all of the changes that enlarge person makes... so we are both right and both wrong. The bonus to strength it grants gives you a +1 to hit which is canceled by the -1 to hit from becoming large... so the main bonus from enlarge person goes back to reach.. . . actually it was intended to reimburse for some the cost for large size and became similar in method to the quadruped trait. really its just about language in trait, sometimes its easier to compare two things when you judge what is taken away rather than what one gains over the other (especially when the two subjects are directly related). by the way enlarge person doesn't give a flat bonus to hit and damage, in fact it actually gives a -1 to hit. not sure if you were just counting the weapon damage increase average as the flat bonus, because you then stated it in the next sentence.
edit: by the way i was stating powerful build as the OP uses it, not the original sorry for the misunderstanding.
which neither form of powerful build granted, so really as i see it powerful build is really the lesser form of a size increase. by the way i cant believe i forgot to to count ability increase bonuses, nice catch.
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About the wielding large weapons with only a -2 to hit, that isn't true, as the player's guide says
"Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make
optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A
cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size
category of difference between the size of its intended wielder
and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient
with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon
(whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed,
or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered
by one step for each size category of difference between
the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the
weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would
wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed
weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to
something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by
this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all."