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What the perfection of WhiteWolf's EverQuest RPG could bring to Pathfinder's table


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew


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To lay at your feet before I delve ahead...

I fully expected to hate this game when I first looked at it. I dismissed it as a cash grab to boost sales of the online game. I couldn't have been more wrong and I think it comes from the ideal marriage of the perfectly crafted skeleton of D&D, flawlessly mixed with a decade of EverQuest lore delivered by WhiteWolf, a company divinely-suited to weave stories.

This Troll will eat thy face!

Racial Diversity
Many would argue that a level 1 character starting with a +6 to STR would be insanely overpowering, but I think that gives a strong flavour of ogre, rather than just a whiff. Most of these games are caster-centric, so it is nice to see the melee come out ahead. Rather than just being vanilla it has a flavour, and with flavours there are those that dig them and those that don't.

Lore Restrictions
There are those who would chafe against monk only being permitted to two races (human and iksar), but it follows the lore perfectly and I think that makes them a bit more special. Tribal societies are shamanistic, and again that makes sense.

Training Points
Rather than having a static feat and attribute increase delivered at a certain level, it is your choice to spend your points on whatever you want. Don't care about feats, don't buy them, it's that simple. You can put your points towards stats, skills, feats or even resistances.

Skills
- Ranks in language skills. Absolutely love this.
- Alcohol tolerance!

Classes
This is where this system really shines. The bard is hands down more interesting than any other game has put out, with songs that make them the masters of doing a bit of everything, but nothing amazing. True hybrid classes and pure casters that each have their own spell list with very little in the way of overlap with other classes.

Magic System
So simple, so pure and the best casting system of any game out there in my eyes. No need to change spell levels for metamagic, just spend more mana. Need to change spells, no worries you can do that on the fly. You have access to all of your spells, but only a handful at any one time.

If only WhiteWolf had released this game in an era later than 2002 v3.0 D&D, there are flaws aplenty indicative of that era, or had updated it a decade later for the Pathfinder rules....

<swoon>

p.s. If anyone is ever running a PBP of this game I am soooo there :)

p.p.s. If there are any doubters of how solid this system is, I dare you to make a character. You'll suddenly see how hard it is to pick between the classes and recognize the hidden genius of this system.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

White Wolf exited the D20 mareket entirely when Fourth Edition was put out. All of the Art Haus lines as well was Sacred Stone were shut down.

They did two good editions of Warcraft, the first around Warcraft 3, the second edition on World of Warcraft much of the material there presaged what would be found in later expansions including Pandaria itself.


Everquest magic system would be nice, except for the spells themselves. There is so much pointless repetition in spells that they could be easily cut in to 20% of spell list. Not to mention that there is too much repetitive combat spells and not enough non-combat spells.

Andoran

Swords and Sorcery did an exceptional job bringing the video game to PnP.

Xenh - A lot of what you point out was indicitive of the original EQ video game (back when there was only 0-2 expansions). The genre went down hill with WoW dumbing the genre and status quo down. EQ eventually followed with its expansions.

Other genius things found in EQ was the mixture of mobs so that you couldn't say that a zone was STRICTLY for lvls 1-3. There were some lvl 5-7s roming the area that would take you out if you wern't careful. Also there was the intermingling of the factions. If you ducked into the wrong house in a town you were suddenly in the necromancer's guild and they all just decimated you for being a paladin.

Drejk - the spell lists mimiced the EQ video game almost exactly. The video game was based on mostly fighting and very little non-combat activities.

The biggest issues we had with it when we played was at higher levels. DR was through the roof to compensate for the high damage output which crippled most mid-low damage classes. Also the bestary gave great templates to make high level monsters, but gave no pregenerated ones - the DM had to create almost every monster in his campaign from scratch with the templates.


Drejk wrote:
Everquest magic system would be nice, except for the spells themselves. There is so much pointless repetition in spells that they could be easily cut in to 20% of spell list. Not to mention that there is too much repetitive combat spells and not enough non-combat spells.

I agree that EverQuest's magic system is incredibly combat focused, and though each class has a a number of non-combat spells they are greatly overshadowed by the combat ones. The focus was on game balance less than flavour, which is a great starting point for a game since DMs (Guides in EQ?) are much more likely to let you craft your own spell (something EQ encourages) that is just for flavour, rather than making you more combat effective.

Each class is a specialist, so a lot of their spells in the next level are an incremental increase from the previous level (e.g. you had a good earth elemental pet and then the next level you get this thing: OMG), which is why you see so many combat spells. What's interesting about specialists, who have access to their entire spell list at a moment's notice, is you see solid roles coming out because you are powerful in an area but need support in others....welcomes a real team environment.

The spells that exist in the EQ RPG offer a tonne of really interesting tactics:

Snare - Restrict an opponents movement speed.
Root - Glue them to the ground.
Pet - Permanent summon monster with other spells that make the pets tougher, or summon weaponry for them.
Mesmerize - A staple of the enchanter class where you take foes out of combat without hurting them.
Fear - Add this to snare and you have a foe running away from you as you plink them with spells/arrows.
Lull - Restrict the ability for the foe to perceive past a certain distance, thus permitting you to act without them realizing what you're doing.
Res - Much more common in EQ, able to be done by paladins and clerics for a loss of experience (at the highest levels there's no loss of exp). Necromancers can do it to, but you don't want to know how.
Divine Aura - Invulnerable to all harm for 3 rounds. Think of the tactics behind those decisions.
Feign Death - Act dead so things leave you alone and find it difficult to perceive you. Something monks can do innately without magic, making them wonderful scouts.
Heals - Clerics can heal as a free action so they can do other things in combat, and walk in with a fair amount of utility.
Spirit of Wolf/Selos - Massive movement speed increases.
Clarity - Regain lost mana. This alone is groundbreaking and allows you to cast much more often and brings in additional tactics....to attack or to rest, decisions, decisions.
Direct Damage/AoE/DoTs - So many combinations here in all different forms.
Debuffs - Bring down a foe's stats/saves so later attacks/spells can do more damage.
Runes - Permit casters to take a certain amount of damage before the rune collapses.
Alacrity/Slow - Highly advanced haste and slow spells that also give stat bonuses, affecting those with lighter weapons more than heavier ones.
Dark Pact/Mod Rod - Have your spell hurt you to give mana.
Lifetap - Ability to do direct damage to hearl yourself.
Illusions - Highly believable illusions for specific races. These also come in items if you're an ogre that always wanted to be a dwarf.
Damage Shield - Melee attacks against you hurts them.
Teleportation - Very common way of getting around via druids and wizards.

That's just scratching the surface....

Not saying that spells like these don't exist in Pathfinder, just speaking of the staples of EQ.

I would argue that while the spells are relatively repetitive you have much much more to do as a caster decision/tactics-wise at every stage of the game, and in every combat. This is what personally twirls my toe hairs about the game.

Imagine the scenario:
Your group is set upon by bandits, so being a friendly necromancer you decide what's your best way to help prompting you to consider the following:
- Summon or send in your skeleton/spectre pet.
- Cast dark pact so you have more mana to play with.
- If injured hit them with a lifetap to heal yourself.
- Cast a DD to hit someone hard now.
- Cast a DoT and kill them in a bit.
- Snare them.
- Fear them.
- Root them.
- Debuff them.
- Meditate to get more mana to play with.
- Go invisible.
- Hide and memorize a different spell.
- Feign dead

Et cetera...et cetera.... The tactics involved in that are exciting.

As an aside, magicians can summon Bristlebane's Bundle and for 24 hours they get 20 bottles of ale, 20 small cakes, 1 firecracker and 1 spinning bottle (causes the user to spin rapidly about for one round becoming quite dizzy).


Balkar wrote:

Xenh - A lot of what you point out was indicitive of the original EQ video game (back when there was only 0-2 expansions). The genre went down hill with WoW dumbing the genre and status quo down. EQ eventually followed with its expansions.

The biggest issues we had with it when we played was at higher levels. DR was through the roof to compensate for the high damage output which crippled most mid-low damage classes. Also the bestary gave great templates to make high level monsters, but gave no pregenerated ones - the DM had to create almost every monster in his campaign from scratch with the templates.

There is a lot of iconic things in later EverQuest expansions that I wish had made its way into the RPG game, such as fading memories (short term invis and memory wipe) for bards, wake the dead (cause a duplicate of a creature you just ganked to rise and fight for you...mainly used to scare raids) for necromancers, and the shroud of stealth (seriously you don't see me no matter who you are) for rogues. Those alternate abilities are amazing and really give a sexy flavour to the game.

Outside of a few choice tidbits I completely agree with you that later expansions did little to make the game more interesting. Insanely more powerful, yes, but not necessarily more interesting.

Would the DR issue not be countered through magical items?

I see a bunch of pregenerated monsters in Monsters of Norrath and Monsters of Luclin (the first creature in the book being a CR 20 Abhorrent). Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Andoran

Yes, magic items were absolutly needed for higher encounters, but the hybrids still unfortunatly fell noticibly behind. I never bought Monsters of Luclin, only the Norrath one.


Balkar wrote:
Yes, magic items were absolutly needed for higher encounters, but the hybrids still unfortunatly fell noticibly behind. I never bought Monsters of Luclin, only the Norrath one.

Tis always the downside of gaining versatility, you lose out on power. Sure you might be good in melee, and tough enough to take shots, and have the ability to defeat encounters with your array of spells, but you are going to fall behind in terms of power in comparison with those that focus purely on melee combat, or arcane might.

Or are you meaning that they're falling behind even after taking that under advisement?


Some Concept Art:

Gnome Necromancer
Iksar Monk
Vah Shir Beastlord
Ogre Shaman
Dark Elf Wizard
Barbarian Warrior
Half Elf Bard
Wood Elf Ranger
Halfling Druid
High Elf Enchantress
Human Cleric
Dwarven Paladin
Erudite Magician
Troll Shadowknight


Jinx Wigglesnort wrote:

Some Concept Art:

Those are the pics from the EQ RPG player's handbook.


Gandal wrote:
Jinx Wigglesnort wrote:

Some Concept Art:

Those are the pics from the EQ RPG player's handbook.

They are indeed :)

By "concept" the meaning was to convey a mood of what it would be like to pull on the skin of one of these characters and step into the world of Norrath, rather than suggesting that these were the first releases of later artwork.


Testing the waters to see the interest others might have in getting an EQ game going via PBP.

LINK

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Keep in mind that most of the rules content of the White Wolf Everquest book was specifically designated as Open Game Content, so there's no reason why a Pathfinder adaptation couldn't be made. Sony retains all rights to the intellectual property specific to the Everquest setting, but the rest of the material is fair game.

Personally, I always liked the way that the EQ RPG handled weapon speed and iterative attacks - it seemed much closer in spirit to second edition AD&D.


Prime Evil wrote:

Keep in mind that most of the rules content of the White Wolf Everquest book was specifically designated as Open Game Content, so there's no reason why a Pathfinder adaptation couldn't be made. Sony retains all rights to the intellectual property specific to the Everquest setting, but the rest of the material is fair game.

Personally, I always liked the way that the EQ RPG handled weapon speed and iterative attacks - it seemed much closer in spirit to second edition AD&D.

I wish I had the skill to carry that out, but when I look at the scope of a conversion I curl in the foetal position and hide behind the sofa.

Honestly a Pathfinder conversion for EverQuest would take over the world. It would have the advantage of lore and amazing mechanics (as you mention the iterative attacks) atop the most excellent (party on Garth) skeleton that is Pathfinder.

If anyone else has the ability I will pay in pocket lint and this thing I found in my belly button.

p.s. I haven't even mentioned "proccing" yet :)


Starting a game for voracious posters over here: LINK

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