I wanted to make a half-orc fighter who used an Orc Double Axe, but after doing the math it seems like perhaps I should have stuck to a two handed weapon and ignored the whole Two Weapon Fighting feats. But check my numbers - maybe I'm missing something:
Assuming a 1st level fighter with an 18 STR:
Double Axe + Two Weapon Fighting feat
To hit: +3/+3
Damage: 1d8+4 & 1d8+2, for an average of 15 damage per round (assuming all hits)
Greatsword + Power Attack
To hit: +4
Damage: 2d6+6+3(power attack), for an average of 16 damage per round.
So the greatsword does more damage and even while power attack is active has a better chance to hit.
It seems to me that the extra attacks you get from Two-Weapon Fighting don't seem to really give you much that you couldn't have already got. Meanwhile, since Power Attack seems to be a prerequisite for a whole pile of feats, and you can use it with any attack, as opposed to two-weapon fighting which only affects one type of situation, power attack seems like it would always be the best bet. Power attack also scales in level whereas Two Weapon Fighting does not - you need to spend a new feat to take advantage of each new attack. On top of that you need a high DEX for all the Two-Weapon feats and as a Fighter you want to pump most of your juice into STR.
Did I miss something? When is two weapon fighting a good bargain?
I was thinking maybe there are specific builds where it works, for example:
Two weapon fighting + Improved shield bash lets you use your shield as a weapon and still get its AC bonus, so you end up getting more damage and still get a shield.
Scimitar + Kukri + critical feats would let you score criticals often and apply crit feats to them.
Two light weapons (or rapier/shortsword) + Weapon Finesse would allow someone without good STR to still get multiple attacks and have a good chance of hitting.
But what about double weapons like the Orc Double Axe? At first it sounded cool but now it seems like it may be a waste of time. Is there a build where it really works?
Peet
When you have nice bonus damage.
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Your maths are correct. I don't have links to the threads, but I'm pretty certain it's been shown repeatedly that two-handed power attacking results in more damage than two-weapon fighting.
If you want to focus on critical hits and the associated feats, you'll have more chances to score threats with a combination like Keen Katana + Keen Kukri (both threaten on a 15-20), but the damage potential is lower. I supposed you could also power attack, but that's going to lower your chance to hit further...
I have a fighter who uses a falcata and improved shield bash for solid AC and the extra damage, but I know his damage isn't optimized. If all you're looking for is maximum damage, Greatsword+Power Attack+Weapon Focus+Specialization. Make it keen as soon as possible for a 17-20 threat range.
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The only solid advantage to TWF is the option to hit split your damage between multiple targets. Given you must use a full attack to do that, and you need only a standard action to pull of your power attack, when looking at the damage alone Power Attack with a 2HW is better. Adding in Cleave later just sweetens it up a bit.
The only way I've seen to make TWF better or more efficient than a 2HW is if you have some reliable method of adding even more damage to each and every attack, such as a sneak attack, smite evil or something similar.
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Two Weapon fighting advantages:
- More chances for a critical hit
- Damage added per hit increases overall damage output
- A greater chance to hit during a round due to more attack rolls
- A chance to split damage between targets
- different enchantments on different weapons give a little more variability rider effects.
Two Weapon fighting disadvantages:
- Damage output falls more proportionally if you can't make a full attack
- Lower damage per hit makes overcoming DR a bigger problem
- Power Attack bonus damage falls to .5 str bonus or 1 str bonus rather than 1.5 str bonus
- Expensive to have two weapons highly enchanted.
- feat intensive to add further bonus attacks
- Dexterity requirements are high
Maybe there's more.
Rangers are probably the best at mitigating a lot of these issues long term. With the right favored enemies, they get good bonuses to damage, and they don't have to meet dex requirements on bonus feats, so they can pump their damage output a bit more.
Rogue sneak attack makes it an option, but rogues are squishier, standing toe to toe for their full attack, require a flank or other way to deny dexterity to their opponents for the full advantage, and have a lower BAB. They're going to be a little more feat starved than the ranger, and usually will invest so much in dex that damage bonuses from strength are minimal or non-existant.
Two Weapon fighting advantages:
- More chances for a critical hit
- Damage added per hit increases overall damage output
- A greater chance to hit during a round due to more attack rolls
- A chance to split damage between targets
- different enchantments on different weapons give a little more variability rider effects.
Two Weapon fighting disadvantages:
- Damage output falls more proportionally if you can't make a full attack
- Lower damage per hit makes overcoming DR a bigger problem
- Power Attack bonus damage falls to .5 str bonus or 1 str bonus rather than 1.5 str bonus
- Expensive to have two weapons highly enchanted.
- feat intensive to add further bonus attacks
- Dexterity requirements are high
Maybe there's more.
Rangers are probably the best at mitigating a lot of these issues long term. With the right favored enemies, they get good bonuses to damage, and they don't have to meet dex requirements on bonus feats, so they can pump their damage output a bit more.
Rogue sneak attack makes it an option, but rogues are squishier, standing toe to toe for their full attack, require a flank or other way to deny dexterity to their opponents for the full advantage, and have a lower BAB. They're going to be a little more feat starved than the ranger, and usually will invest so much in dex that damage bonuses from strength are minimal or non-existant.
Rogues can use Two-weapon feint and/or Improved Feint to get their sneak attack damage more often, which helps their damage somewhat.
Also, a dex-based TWF with weapon finesse could probably skip Double Slice, since halving a low str bonus doesn't cost that much.
Unfortunately, you can't use Dervish Dance with TWF, so you'd have to pay for the agile weapons to add your Dex bonus to damage. (Is Agile damage halved on the off-hand weapon?)
That's an odd question; because normally if you took two weapon fighting you'd want Power attack. The point is that if you get a good weapon and follow the two weapon fighting tree, your dmg will eventually overtake the negative
BAB +16 using a +5 two handed weapon with power attack gets a damage bonus +20/+20/+20/+20= +80
BAB +16 using two +5 weapons with TWF, ITWF, and GTWF with power attack gets damage bonus:
+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10 = +90Edit: I forgot the free extra attack you get just for having an offhand weapon:
+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10 = +100And you are using your weapon's base damage more often. If the weapons have other kinds of damage dice, like vicious or elemental, you are also applying 7 of those in a full attack instead of 4. If you can add effects that get worse with each hit, such as hammer the gap, bleed, poision, etc, that's also a reason to go this route.
So your math was right, on its own power attack favors two-handed weapons, but when you take other factors into account at higher level play, two weapon fighting has a higher DoT. But if you are playing society, that point may never come.
The penalties from two-weapon fighting also stack with the penalties from Power Attack. Your third and final off-hand attack from Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is at a whopping -17 with both Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting penalties at that point (assuming a light weapon in your off-hand).
Two weapons or a double weapon cost more to enchant than a single two-handed weapon, which also works against you. The versatility you can add might make this feel a bit better, but that really requires cooperation on the GM's part, as it would rarely show up on its own.
(I'm not sure how the off-hand gets four extra attacks- one for using two weapons, one from Improved, and a third and final from Greater. The basic feat reduces penalties, but doesn't add any extra attack. Haste can add a single attack to both, and really helps two-handeds pull closer in combined damage, rather than working in a two-weapon fighter's favor. It specifically only adds one attack to the total routine, not one per weapon.)
When effects start boosting your to-hit bonuses, two-weapon fighters start closing in on overall damage... so if you have a bard and access to a few other boosts (cleric spells, bard spells, cavaliers granting you teamwork bonuses, etc) or allies helping lower enemy AC, two-weapon fighting can feel quite awesome.
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I know this is snarky, but boo hoo... If all you're doing is looking at the numbers then you've made a mistake in your build. But if you want to play a double axe wielding orc then play one.
Be different! Your double axe wielding orc looks cool! The double axe can also be used two handed if you want it to. It doesn't have the base damage of a greatsword, but its crit multiplier is higher.
--I wanna Vrock! VROCK!
I know this is snarky, but boo hoo... If all you're doing is looking at the numbers then you've made a mistake in your build. But if you want to play a double axe wielding orc then play one.
Be different! Your double axe wielding orc looks cool! The double axe can also be used two handed if you want it to. It doesn't have the base damage of a greatsword, but its crit multiplier is higher.
--I wanna Vrock! VROCK!
This...I've done a half or using the double axe...it was fun. Every character you play does need to be optimized to the nth degree.
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Haste can add a single attack to both, and really helps two-handeds pull...
Nope. Haste adds one extra attack at your highest base attack bonus. Not an extra attack per weapon. Greater Two-Weapon fighting maxes (with haste OR a speed weapon) at 8 attacks per full-attack action.
EDIT: There is some debate on whether or not you can use a speed weapon and haste to gain two extra attacks (one with each weapon) when making a two-weapon fighting full attack. I'm still not sure where I fall on that debate.
Some other things to note:
Single feats will boost both ends of the weapon (e.g., weapon focus and weapon specialization). Using the same weapon in each hand (e.g., two kukris) would give you this advantage as well, though.
With some double weapons you get two types of damage in one weapon (though not with the orc double axe).
Design Manager
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Haste can add a single attack to both, and really helps two-handeds pull...Nope. Haste adds one extra attack at your highest base attack bonus. Not an extra attack per weapon. Greater Two-Weapon fighting maxes (with haste OR a speed weapon) at 8 attacks per full-attack action.
EDIT: There is some debate on whether or not you can use a speed weapon and haste to gain two extra attacks (one with each weapon) when making a two-weapon fighting full attack. I'm still not sure where I fall on that debate.
The Speed weapon property specifically says it doesn't stack with haste....
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The Speed weapon property specifically says it doesn't stack with haste....
Yep. But haste also only affects one weapon attack. You clearly can't use haste and a speed weapon to get two extra attacks per round with a single weapon. The debate is whether or not you can use a speed weapon to gain an extra attack with a DIFFERENT weapon while affected by haste. As I said, I'm not sure where I fall on that...both arguments have their merit. But, this isn't the place for that argument...I'm sure we could find that thread somewhere if we really wanted to get into it... ;-)
RAW you can TWF with Dervish Dance if you have improved unarmed strike, not only that you also add full dex to damage on your unarmed strikes as well. Is it RAI, probably not, but RAW you can TWF with Dervish Dance with unarmed strikes.
Rogues can use Two-weapon feint and/or Improved Feint to get their sneak attack damage more often, which helps their damage somewhat.Also, a dex-based TWF with weapon finesse could probably skip Double Slice, since halving a low str bonus doesn't cost that much.
Unfortunately, you can't use Dervish Dance with TWF, so you'd have to pay for the agile weapons to add your Dex bonus to damage. (Is Agile damage halved on the off-hand weapon?)
Wow, you're right. That makes that feat even spiffier! (I was probably confusing the Dervish Dance feat with the Aldori Swordlord prestige class, which specifically says no unarmed strikes in the off hand.)
Haste can add a single attack to both, and really helps two-handeds pull...Nope. Haste adds one extra attack at your highest base attack bonus. Not an extra attack per weapon. Greater Two-Weapon fighting maxes (with haste OR a speed weapon) at 8 attacks per full-attack action.
EDIT: There is some debate on whether or not you can use a speed weapon and haste to gain two extra attacks (one with each weapon) when making a two-weapon fighting full attack. I'm still not sure where I fall on that debate.
If you had read the whole paragraph, you would see that I had said that.
(... Haste can add a single attack to both, and really helps two-handeds pull closer in combined damage, rather than working in a two-weapon fighter's favor. It specifically only adds one attack to the total routine, not one per weapon.)
Bold added for emphasis.
For what it's worth, Haste also says it doesn't stack with Speed in any way. (Though in my personal opinion, I don't mind big numbers in combat- I have plenty of other stuff going on in a game, and I can match an arms race if that's what the group wants to do.)
What am I missing? He could use the Power Attack with the Two Weapon Fighting as well, no?
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To be honest, massive heavy hitters with power attack are so boring. Everyone in my PFS area is playing them. That's why I made dual wielding barbarian for fun.
The concept picture from Shades of Ice - Written in Blood scenario where I saw Barbarian dual wielding axe and dagger was just too cool to leave it only for NPC.
Thanks everyone for your comments. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing, really.
The thing is that TWF seems to apply a "feat tax" on a particular style of combat which is no more effective than a different kind that doesn't require feats.
For example, in the first example I gave I compared a 1st level fighter with TWF and Orc Double Axe vs. one with Power Attack and greatsword. But if you compare the Orc Double Axe with TWF vs Greatsword and NO feats the greatsword does two points less damage but has a +2 to hit, so overall the greatsword is about as good with no combat feats at all.
You guys have mentioned that at high levels TWF can exceed a two handed weapon, but of course every additional attack you are getting costs a feat, whereas the other path doesn't cost any extra feats at all, so the problem is exacerbated.
This wouldn't be a huge deal but I am planning an intimidation-based character using the half-orc's +2 to intimidate plus Intimidating Prowess and Dazzling Display (which needs weapon focus), so I need my feats for that. Also planning a rogue dip with the thug archetype, and maybe a barbarian dip as well. But the idea of using Dazzling Display in conjunction with the double axe just seems really cool, and it's hard to pass up.
Peet
Two handed appears default good dmg for non-bonus damage types. You're looking to do a big chunk of damage in a few hits. Two Weapon gets nasty when you start applying things like sneak attack or the such, Bane, etc.
The trick also seems that Two Handed ends up feat-cheaper to pull together than going full focus on Two Weapon fighting (unless ranger or something.)
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Oh Peet, I just thought of an odd-ball corner case which makes TWF better than 2HF - the two shield welding fighter.
Yes it is feat expensive but fighters can afford the feats. Since a shield costs half the price of a weapon with the same bonus, there is no money cost versus a 2Hander while with the shield feats you get the AC bonus of a shield while still using it as a weapon. Someone has a build for the two shield fighter somewhere, and it looks interesting.
but outside of odd-ball builds TWF is pretty inferior to 2HF and is best reserved for flavor.
Don't think the two shield fighter build is as good as you think.
1. You only get the AC from one shield. They are both shield bonuses, so they don't stack.
2. You have to enchant each shield for defense and as a weapon. You can't use the shield's AC bonus as an attack. There is a feat that allows you to use the shield's AC bonus for attack, but it is pretty far down the shield feat tree if I recall.
One thing to consider if you want to go the two-shield route, Rangers that take the Weapon and Shield Combat style can pick up Shield Master at level six.
I am actually using such a ranger in a game. I am guessing that due to the cheapness of enchanting two shields it might pull ahead of a two-hander at earlier levels, but it will cap out just like two weapon fighting does, and then the two-hander will surpass it anyway.
*sigh*
TWF DOES OUTDAMAGE TWO HANDED- As long as your to hit numbers are massive and static damage is big.
Use the guide to the guides thread. I have written one for fighters and one for rangers.
They do it best, but also works for
Smiting Paladins
Challenging Cavaliers/Samurai
Rogues/Ninja
I wouldn't bother for other classes.
The short rule is if your gonna TWF you need to full attack all the time
You need to either get pounce, aggro or an ability to stop a foe moving
away so you can keep full attacking.
My wife is playing a TWF Fighter pretty effectively in our campaign, actually. Quick Draw and Power Attack, she can still charge with a longsword held in two hands, power attack, and then quickdraw a shortsword. She has options to power attack low AC enemies with TWF, or just TWF, or any combination. She hasn't bothered with keeping both weapons fully enhanced, since magical weapons of all varieties seem to be common loot drops, so she can use whatever is most appropriate to the situation. Straight fighters do this better than most as they get multiple weapon groups to specialize in.
People get too caught up in this 1-trick pony type characters.
Just a note:
You can use a double weapon (or any 1handed weapon) as a 2handed weapon. So when you are not able to take a full attack action feel free to switch to 2handed grip and get some extra damage as a 2handed weapon.
- Gauss
Yah, no one's saying TWF can't be done. It's just not as easy to be consistently effective in some combats, and it requires more effort and planning to make the attacks stick. And all that with a much steeper feat investment.
I love TWF thematically, I just always struggle to make sure it's going to be useful and powerful for my characters.
I love TWF thematically, I just always struggle to make sure it's going to be useful and powerful for my characters.
I too love TWF from a theme point of view. I have just come to the point where I don't care if I am not the highest damge deliverer. If I am doing my share and the party is doing well, that is good enough.
Now that is not to say I do not try to do the best I can, but if I want to be a brute, then I make a brute.
Yep.
Question for everyone I realize not all campaigns allow the gunslinger but have any of you considered the massive damage potential for a two weapon fighting gunslinger wielding two revolvers. I can say this for sure sas long as you stay with in your first 5 range increments with those guns hitting enemies is an incredibly easy task. and the fact you could in theory do it every round makes it a viable option. Of course the gunslinger is campaign and play group specific and advanced fire arms tend to be incredibly powerful so you may wish to ignore the argument that gunslingers are two-weapon fighting monsters
I would not allow the advanced firearm stage myself without testing it out. The default is emerging guns. If a player asked me about the advanced guns I would only allow it in a module or if it was an AP I would say upfront that I reserve the right to ask him to change the character later.
You can actually TWF guns without using advanced firearms, but it requires a very specific build, and a lenient GM to allow for the rules interpretation needed. Basically the fact that there is no limit to the number of free actions would have to be in play.
With that aside the gunslinger could do a lot of damage with TWF'ing using advanced weapons or the unlimited free action method.
If I'm not mistaken the unlimited free action method is based around quick draw abuse. So Wraithstrike would you allow that sort of free action abuse in any of your campaigns to make TWF a viable combat option?
If it is the build that someone posted before then no. The free action abuse I think the build used was somewhat extreme. It actually involved reloading the weapon a lot, and some other free actions such as changing the hand the weapon was held in several times. Basically it involved over 10 free actions that would take a decent amount of time, and I know this is a fantasy game, but still...
I found a post relating to it.
"gloves of storing, to hold nothing in the other hand. Then use that other hand to help reload, make the first weapon dissappear after shooting and loading, then making new weapon appear in left hand. "
The gun used is a double barreled gun. I don't know if that is an advanced weapon or not, but both barrels were getting load, and one attack gives you two shots.
I think I would shoot it down for immersion more than anything else.
Now if it were not double barrels I would at least give it a trial run.
Question for everyone I realize not all campaigns allow the gunslinger but have any of you considered the massive damage potential for a two weapon fighting gunslinger wielding two revolvers. I can say this for sure sas long as you stay with in your first 5 range increments with those guns hitting enemies is an incredibly easy task. and the fact you could in theory do it every round makes it a viable option. Of course the gunslinger is campaign and play group specific and advanced fire arms tend to be incredibly powerful so you may wish to ignore the argument that gunslingers are two-weapon fighting monsters
You don't actually need revolvers for this one...
Pepperboxes hold 6 shots, with one in each hand you can get almost 2 whole rounds of fire out of one load.
It isn't a trick you can pull off early though, since a pepperbox is 3000gp before enhancement, but still, it is there on the emerging firearms table.
@Wraithstrike: Yeah, I wish I had a link to that build, just so I could send some hate mail to that guy. My DM banned gunslingers before I got a chance to play one based off of that post and similar posts. Ah well.
Every class has extreme builds. Hopefully your GM will realize that it is players, more than classes that are the issue.
I would love to see that gunslinger build. Do either of you know if it is vanilla gunslinger or if it actually has an archetype?
So what have we concluded on Two handed versus Two weapon.
Two weapon is a high feat investment allowing little in game performance unless you develop a means to full attack every turn. Where as with two handed weapons you can take power attack, and deal double the normal amount of damage.
Overall from an optimizer perspective the two handed wins out, however as far as flavor goes two weapons is typically way cooler and offers some very cool weapon combos.
Every class has extreme builds. Hopefully your GM will realize that it is players, more than classes that are the issue.
He does, it isn't just the extreme builds that made him reach that conclusion. They just didn't help the case any.
I would love to see that gunslinger build. Do either of you know if it is vanilla gunslinger or if it actually has an archetype?
So what have we concluded on Two handed versus Two weapon.
Two weapon is a high feat investment allowing little in game performance unless you develop a means to full attack every turn. Where as with two handed weapons you can take power attack, and deal double the normal amount of damage.
Overall from an optimizer perspective the two handed wins out, however as far as flavor goes two weapons is typically way cooler and offers some very cool weapon combos.
IIRC the original build used weapon cords, but it was pointed out that they don't work so he switched to the gloves of storing.
The main ingredients are rapidshot, rapid reload, TWF feat chain.
Now rapidshot and TWF stack the penalties, but when you are targeting touch AC it does not really matter.
I will see if I can find the build.
I was incorrect. The Pistolero is the archtype used, and the wording on double barrels was not clear, but here is the initial build before the gloves came into play.
I don't know if the build follows all of the rules since I only skimmed the thread.
copied from the thread..
1. Shrink weapon 1 (free action)
2. Reload weapon 2, both barrels (2x free action)
3. Retrieve weapon 1 (free action)
4. Swap weapon hands (free action, or 2x free action?)
5. Shrink weapon 2 (free action)
6. Reload weapon 1, both barrels (2x free action)
7. Retrieve weapon 2 (free action)
IIRC this was the part that became questionable. I knew I remembered some leniency on the part of the GM needed in here somewhere.