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Additional summons lists.


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

Grand Lodge ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Okay I got a player who is having fun with his summoner (Save me from the horde o' dogs!.. please!). And he brought up a valid question..

It mentions 'alternate summons lists' in the Play guide.

Aside from the ones in a few of the Adventure Paths (he likes playing and prefers to avoid buying modules of anykind) I can't see anything that stands out in the MASSIVE pile of data in the additional resources list.

Anyone already addressed this issue while I look through it again?

Grand Lodge ****

Some creatures are specifically added to some summon lists based on your deity, as per the articles in the Adventure Paths which have articles on those deities. Many of those have been made PFS-legal. Not useful for a non-divine summoner, though.

Grand Lodge ****

Scott Young wrote:

Some creatures are specifically added to some summon lists based on your deity, as per the articles in the Adventure Paths which have articles on those deities. Many of those have been made PFS-legal. Not useful for a non-divine summoner, though.

Noticed that too.. not wanting anything in the AP series as he resolutely doesn't want to get them. They are the ONLY thing I've seen as an alternative summon list.

*

That's all that's legal (Beastiary I creatures on Core list and those few AP creatures). Most of AP summons have very tight religious restrictions on them so at most you can get one extra creature to summon.

I mentioned something in a post for this thread but that post was deleted (either by a thread monster or someone real) so I will keep that out of this post. Probably a thread monster since no one left a deleted tomb stone in it's place but better safe than sorry.

Liberty's Edge ***** ACG Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Also another thing about those summons lists from the AP, it has never been clarified for PFS if 'follower' meant a Divine Caster of that deity or anyone with that deity in their deity space on their character sheet.

*

I'd assume that it was anyone with the deity on their sheet, with the additional caveat that in PFS there is the extra one-alignment-step rule for anyone, not just divine spellcasters.

Liberty's Edge ***** ACG Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Saint Caleth wrote:
I'd assume that it was anyone with the deity on their sheet, with the additional caveat that in PFS there is the extra one-alignment-step rule for anyone, not just divine spellcasters.

The problem with that, the only time we got a ruling on that, it was Divine casters only, with the last word being he would look into changing that.

This was Josh.

*

Dragnmoon wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
I'd assume that it was anyone with the deity on their sheet, with the additional caveat that in PFS there is the extra one-alignment-step rule for anyone, not just divine spellcasters.

The problem with that, the only time we got a ruling on that, it was Divine casters only, with the last word being he would look into changing that.

This was Josh.

You might be right about that now that I look at it, since the god specific magic items from Gods and Magic which anyone with the appropriate deity can use have the different wording "If X is your patron".

Grand Lodge ***** RPG Venture-Captain, Netherlands—Leiden

Link to original thread

Shadow Lodge **** RPG Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas-Fort Worth aka Azothath

1 person marked this as a favorite.

*placing my $75 onyx (yep, 3HD!) on the keyboard I say the magic words and gestures and begin to type*

there are usually class and faith requirements associated with alternative summonings for monster summoning / summon nature's ally from the Adventure Paths, Modules, etc(?). So you have to read the original material to get it correct. These requirements are not in the Archives of Nethys or pathfindersrd(d20pfsrd) entries.

The meaning of "priest" is in the GM's gray area. Paizo designer Mark Moreland stated it means only "cleric" in 2011 and many PFS GMs will use that definition. A later Paizo published material refers to a priest who is a wizard (no divine spellcasting ability). It'll get crazy should Paizo come out with a Priest class. Needless to say you should at least worship the correct patron deity on your character sheet and ask your GM if he approves of the summoning before the game starts. I'd have a print out of the monster and the pertinent source material (with the requirements) allowing access attached to it for the GM to review. If you're pdf based remember to print out your downloads page.

With "follower","devotee","worshipper", or "patron" you just need to have the correct patron deity on your character sheet. Have the same printouts as above.

I believe (are you gonna make me look that up too?) that PCs can only have ONE patron deity for access to domains. I would infer that this also implies to these types of summons granted by specific deities (so spellcasters need to choose ONE patron deity for their benefits).

I put the supporting posts and references behind a button to save reading time...

links & stuff:

Priests(Feb 13 2011)
Mark Moreland Feb 13 2011 wrote:
(PFS(PFSOP) lead at the time)... Until then, "priest" is cleric only. Wizards and sorcerers or whatever can still cast spells on their spell list that say druid (Gozreh) for example, but until we take a look at them, only a cleric of a specific deity can use alternate summon lists granted by their god in PFSOP.

What & where "legal" is(Nov 08 2011)

"Michael Brock Nov 8 2011” wrote:
(PFS lead at the time {and currently})...

basically only Printed material, FAQs, Additional Resources are PFS legal. An effort was made to consolidate the rulings in a few official places. This prevents all the running around with obscure posts and such as to what is legal or not. So... other posts and such are thus considered “Guidelines” for the GM and are put solidly in the GM's gray area.

PF->PFS FAQ(Nov 01 2013)

"FAQ rulings binding for Pathfinder Society play? Nov 1 2013” wrote:

Yes and PFS has its own specific FAQ as well: http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq

Note that some FAQ answers tell you to talk to your GM for permission to use a particular option. If you are playing in Pathfinder Society and the PFS staff haven’t addressed the question in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, an entry in the PFS FAQ, or a clarification by the campaign staff, the default answer to this question is “no,” as it’s probably odd enough to have unexpected effects on the PFS campaign.

so don't assume "yes", ask your GM.

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What if you are an arcane caster but take one of the divine obiediences? (Either the general or the specific one for Empyral lords. Or the demonic versions?

Would up then qualify for the modified lists?

Shadow Lodge **** RPG Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas-Fort Worth aka Azothath

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rycaut wrote:

What if you are an arcane caster but take one of the divine obiediences? (Either the general or the specific one for Empyral lords. Or the demonic versions?

Would up then qualify for the modified lists?

again, you do what anyone taking something beyond core would do.

1) You have thoroughly read the original source material allowing access to the option. I've had unpleasant surprises when just using websites.
2) Check Additional Resources. Is the option in scope(legal)?
3) Check the FAQs & blogs.
Offhand I recall Mike posted at length (blog?) about Deities and domains. So you might want to check that and post a link here. It's important to the topic I just didn't look it up.
4) do a search on the PFS org play boards for posts about it. You have to take these with a grain of salt as they are not official rulings. See what others think the viability of the option is.
5) think about the character and how this fits into the character concept/design. Does it work or are you shoehorning something in? Remember the goal is to have fun playing the character and doing memorable things. Nobody is gonna pay you cash for your character or role-playing (unless you're an actor and then you are handed a character).
6) realize that if you fall into the GMs gray area, some people will balk at what you've done and say no. Don't get mad, that's just your idea vs their idea. Ask the GM before you sit (don't waste everyone's time by stopping the game mid-stride). Play another character or find another GM that will say yes. If you don't find any GMs that say yes, then probably the idea is too far out there for the average sensibility and practically you might want to rethink the option. As this is #6, you've already vetted the idea and only silly people skip a reasonable process and just do the last step. I've personally had some cases when after two weeks to a month the GM came back and said "you're right" and a few times where I had to say "I learned something" and do things another way.

*grin*

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've done most of those steps. been thinking about building a Mystery cultist which at least when I last looked was PFS legal and didn't require being a divine caster for entry. It just requires being good, knowledge religion 7 ranks, speaking Celestial and the feat Celestial Obedience. It also says "must worship an Empyreal Lord"

Which brings back the PFS question of can you count as worshiping a god if you aren't playing a divine caster? I'm fairly sure the pfs answer is yes but I'm not certain what other restrictions are in place (if a divine caster I know you have to be within a step of your god's alignment - not certain if you do if just a regular worshipper though I would assume it is likely.

Shadow Lodge **** RPG Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas-Fort Worth aka Azothath

Rycaut wrote:

What if you are an arcane caster but take one of the divine obiediences? (Either the general or the specific one for Empyral lords. Or the demonic versions?

Would up then qualify for the modified lists?

Offhand it might open up one to maybe a few summons. The APs tend to add prerequisites. It's not a bad thing as these are more tailored options.

example: Zeus's clerics SHOULD get lightning bolts as it's thematic to their deity.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber
Rycaut wrote:
Which brings back the PFS question of can you count as worshiping a god if you aren't playing a divine caster? I'm fairly sure the pfs answer is yes but I'm not certain what other restrictions are in place (if a divine caster I know you have to be within a step of your god's alignment - not certain if you do if just a regular worshipper though I would assume it is likely.

I thought of doing the same with a wizard at one point - you may want to note that the PFS restriction does not involve "being a divine caster", but rather gaining a mechanical benefit from the deity choice. If you receive a mechanical benefit (ex. prestige class qualification), then you have to follow the restrictions that any other worshipper of that deity would (ie being within one step of the alignment).

-TimD

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

that's pretty reasonable - for the characters I was thinking about it won't be hard to be within one step

The Exchange ***

Maybe im having a bad reading COMP DAY, but mark made a ruling that only clerics can use additional summon lists. This has never been changed. If you notice I have been on this from the beginning and wanted it changed but it has never been. Not sure how anyone whom has read the original post can come to a different conclusion. Or like I said, I may just be miss understanding what some others have posted.

Shadow Lodge **** RPG Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas-Fort Worth aka Azothath

Jeff Morse wrote:
Maybe im having a bad reading COMP DAY, but mark made a ruling that only clerics can use additional summon lists. This has never been changed. If you notice I have been on this from the beginning and wanted it changed but it has never been. Not sure how anyone whom has read the original post can come to a different conclusion. Or like I said, I may just be miss understanding what some others have posted.

the messageboards are a snarled place of that needle in a haystack.

Could you post a link to that?

I did reference where Mark made a post back in Feb 2011 stating, "'Priest' is Cleric only." That is a different statement than yours unless all of the entries in the books that offer additional summonings have the requirement of "priest". That might have been true in 2011 with just one resource book. I have also not read all the additional summoning text blocks in the original materials so I cannot confirm that there is different text in the requirements. I believe that there is though. Currently I am working on exactly that issue as I come up with a guide to summonings for my characters.

Shadow Lodge **** RPG Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas-Fort Worth aka Azothath

Stephen Ross wrote:

*placing my $75 onyx (yep, 3HD!) on the keyboard I say the magic words and gestures and begin to type*

...

I put the supporting posts and references behind a button to save reading time...
** links & stuff omitted **...

a few more links & stuff:

Guide to Organized Play v6.0, pg 5 wrote:
You may not simply ignore rules clarifications made by the campaign leadership, including the campaign coordinator, and campaign developer, on the paizo.com messageboards. GMs are not required to read every post on the messageboards, but GMs familiar with rules clarifications made by the campaign leadership (which have not been superseded by the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play or FAQ) must abide by these clarifications or rulings. If it is a significant clarification, it will be updated in the FAQ, and later in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play if necessary.

Compilation of message board clarifications 2012

of note;
Mike Brock, PFS Campaign Coordinator wrote:
With the new rule in Guide 4.2 about messageboard clarifications being binding, and with some folks feeling burdened with the need for awareness (despite board-delving not being a requirement), here is a handy reference guide to message board clarifications.

the ruling about "priest" did not make the list, but probably an oversight.

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But since 2012 a lot of other mechanical ways to be a divine servant have been added to the game AND to PFS play. As such I think more clarification is needed. If you take a feat or a prestige class that is entirely about being a servant of your god it seems reasonable that you might qualify for your gods summons lists etc even if not a cleric.

And even less complex what about oracles?

Silver Crusade ***

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Rycaut wrote:


Which brings back the PFS question of can you count as worshiping a god if you aren't playing a divine caster? I'm fairly sure the pfs answer is yes but I'm not certain what other restrictions are in place (if a divine caster I know you have to be within a step of your god's alignment - not certain if you do if just a regular worshipper though I would assume it is likely.

Back when Inner Sea Gods came out, it was clarified that any class could worship a deity, they just had to be within the standard one step in alignment from their deity. As for whether a caster character qualifies for the expanded summoning list, is a bit more fuzzy. Per the AR page, most of the expanded summons lists are legal for worshippers of the given deity, since a worshipper of a deuty has been defined now, I should think that any caster that worships a deity should have access to the expanded summons list. The only thing that is a little weird is that the AR has the Besmara expanded summons list available specifically singles out clerics, and others simply say that the summons lists are legal.

From the FAQ:
What determines if my character can be a “worshiper” of a deity?
As a character, you may choose to worship a single deity or pantheon (the “deity”). If you worship a pantheon, you do not count as worshiping every god in that pantheon; you must choose one deity from that pantheon for the purpose of gaining mechanical benefits.

Your character’s alignment must be within one step of that of the deity he or she worships. Any character with levels in a class that grants spells or other features from a specific deity must worship that deity.

A character may only worship one deity at a time; the character may change which deity she worships between sessions at no cost. If this change requires the character to change alignment, the character is required to pay for an atonement. Any element incompatible with the new deity no longer functions. These elements may be retrained at normal cost using the rules from Ultimate Campaign.

For example, a cleric of Desna with the Travel and Luck domains and the Butterfly Sting feat switches her worship to Shelyn. The cleric may still use the Luck domain because Shelyn grants that domain, but not the Travel domain or the Butterfly Sting feat, because worship of Shelyn does not grant access to those features.

posted May 2, 2014

As to what constitutes a priest, given that all of the content from chapter one of ISG is legal (minus the Lamashtu stuff) I would say that it is pretty clear now that classes other than cleric can be priests of a given deity.

The Exchange ***

from the beginning we have been able to be a worshiper of a deity without being a cleric, In fact, the person that started the first thread played a wizard that would make temp unholy symbols and give them out.
We also had paladins, druids and rangers at the time of Mark's ruling and he still said "clerics" only for additional lists.
I even asked if they would address it again here http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lv85&page=2?What-are-considered-priests-fo r-customized#55.
But if you come to a different understanding based on later facts than OK. I play alot of summoner types and frankly find the summon good feat to outshine any free extra summon list. Except for asmodious of course but that has been done already.

Liberty's Edge

Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
Aside from the ones in a few of the Adventure Paths (he likes playing and prefers to avoid buying modules of anykind)

I know the thread is HEAVY about the definition of "follower of a deity" and what that allows a PC to access (I almost think it would be a good idea to split up the thread), but I wanted to point out one catch in the initial post.

One of the first PFS rule you come across is that you have to own it to use it. I know there are DMs that are lenient on this, if I was DMing a PC that was complaining about options as a Summoner, and they have stated they don't want to be bothered with buying books/material, I would tell him: "That should be easy. Review the material you do own. If you find any details about additional summons list, we can verify if it's PFS-legal" and that would be it.

Maybe that's just me. I would be concerned about them taking a summoner with an increased summons list to an official and/or different event/location and a DM or another player asked for verification.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rycaut wrote:

I've done most of those steps. been thinking about building a Mystery cultist which at least when I last looked was PFS legal and didn't require being a divine caster for entry. It just requires being good, knowledge religion 7 ranks, speaking Celestial and the feat Celestial Obedience. It also says "must worship an Empyreal Lord"

Which brings back the PFS question of can you count as worshiping a god if you aren't playing a divine caster? I'm fairly sure the pfs answer is yes but I'm not certain what other restrictions are in place (if a divine caster I know you have to be within a step of your god's alignment - not certain if you do if just a regular worshipper though I would assume it is likely.

I have a (Celestial) Sorceror who is a Mystery Cultist. It is absolutely legal to do so.

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Right. The question then is do you qualify for other God specific items (magic items, spells on spell lists or summoning lists etc)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Rycaut wrote:
Right. The question then is do you qualify for other God specific items (magic items, spells on spell lists or summoning lists etc)

It seems most likely.

Among other things, I've found some bonus spells in Inner Sea Gods that are specifically for non-divine classes (bards of Cayden Cailean, bards of Nethys, sorcerers and wizards of Pharasma, necromancers and sorcerers of Urgathoa). I'd assume they weren't only talking about multiclass clerics there. :)

Also, at least one magic item, the cloak of the crusader, refers to the banner class feature. Again, I'm guessing they weren't thinking of multiclassed divine casters.

Of course, if PFS has a special exception to all this (other than the one-step alignment rule), I couldn't tell you that. :)

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rycaut wrote:
Right. The question then is do you qualify for other God specific items (magic items, spells on spell lists or summoning lists etc)

UndeadMItch's post up above has the relevant answer from the PFS FAQ as to what defines a "worshipper" -- that should cover everything except maybe the summoning lists.

Shadow Lodge **** RPG Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas-Fort Worth aka Azothath

thanks for the source...

From the Additional Resources, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods, “Misc.: all material in chapter 1 is legal except pages 92-99”

Inner Sea Gods(ISG), First printing 2014
pg 5, “Players of clerics in particular will find much of interest here, but note that the gods do not merely look to clerics for worship, or even to their dedicated priests—any class and creature can gain power or salvation from worshiping a god, and options for all manner of characters can be found herein.”
pg 22, “Asmodeus’s extremely hierarchical priesthood includes clerics, inquisitors, sorcerers (especially those with the infernal bloodline), conjurers, diabolists (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Princes of Chaos, Book of the Damned, Vol. 1), fallen paladins, and cruel soldiers. Many scheming bards and vicious monks are also affiliated with his church.”
pg 24, “Asmodean inquisitors command intense respect and fear. These priests seek out disease and corruption in the tree of the unholy in order to maintain orthodox beliefs.”
pg 30, Calistria “many of her clergy carry daggers in her honor. Most of her priests are clerics or bards, though in some places more exotic spellcasters are the norm for her clergy, and even some non-spellcasters reach positions of moderate importance in her priesthood based on their cunning and achievements.”
pg 39, Cayden “members of the owner’s family may enter the priesthood to secure prosperity for the brewery.”
pg 46, Densa “Most of her clergy are clerics, although about one-third of her priests are bards or rogues, with a number of neutral good druids and rangers also choosing her as their patron.”
pg 54, Erastil “Most of his priests are clerics, but a small minority are druids, rangers, and (most rare) paladins, while a few remote communities are served by adepts.”

and so it goes...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Elementals are also kind of a creeping expansion list. As new elementals are added in later bestiaries, they are available for summoning.

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Has that rule about elementals been confirmed to be expanded for PFS?

Grand Lodge ****

KestrelZ wrote:
Elementals are also kind of a creeping expansion list. As new elementals are added in later bestiaries, they are available for summoning.

Incorrect. Bestiary 1 elementals only.

Shadow Lodge **** RPG Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas-Fort Worth aka Azothath

Jeff Merola wrote:
KestrelZ wrote:
Elementals are also kind of a creeping expansion list. As new elementals are added in later bestiaries, they are available for summoning.
Incorrect. Bestiary 1 elementals only.

that is another post by Mark in 2011 that did not make it into the

Compilation of message board clarifications, 2012 (which got added to the FAQs)

The Exchange ***

Stephen Ross wrote:

thanks for the source...

From the Additional Resources, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods, “Misc.: all material in chapter 1 is legal except pages 92-99”

Inner Sea Gods(ISG), First printing 2014
pg 5, “Players of clerics in particular will find much of interest here, but note that the gods do not merely look to clerics for worship, or even to their dedicated priests—any class and creature can gain power or salvation from worshiping a god, and options for all manner of characters can be found herein.”
pg 22, “Asmodeus’s extremely hierarchical priesthood includes clerics, inquisitors, sorcerers (especially those with the infernal bloodline), conjurers, diabolists (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Princes of Chaos, Book of the Damned, Vol. 1), fallen paladins, and cruel soldiers. Many scheming bards and vicious monks are also affiliated with his church.”
pg 24, “Asmodean inquisitors command intense respect and fear. These priests seek out disease and corruption in the tree of the unholy in order to maintain orthodox beliefs.”
pg 30, Calistria “many of her clergy carry daggers in her honor. Most of her priests are clerics or bards, though in some places more exotic spellcasters are the norm for her clergy, and even some non-spellcasters reach positions of moderate importance in her priesthood based on their cunning and achievements.”
pg 39, Cayden “members of the owner’s family may enter the priesthood to secure prosperity for the brewery.”
pg 46, Densa “Most of her clergy are clerics, although about one-third of her priests are bards or rogues, with a number of neutral good druids and rangers also choosing her as their patron.”
pg 54, Erastil “Most of his priests are clerics, but a small minority are druids, rangers, and (most rare) paladins, while a few remote communities are served by adepts.”

and so it goes...

Agree with this for all but the expanded spell lists though. we had these same sayings in gods and magic at the time Mark made his yet unchanged ruling, so still think that that means cleric. no to warpriest, shaman ect... till John or Mike says differantly.

No additional elementals for summonng, so only base 4

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