| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Expecting proper spelling and grammar in a written-format mode of communication isn't snobbery. It's a perfectly-reasonable expectation, particularly from those of us who do exercise linguistic excellence.Expecting it isn't snobbery. Creating a thread that pokes fun of poor grammar and spelling is - especially when one gives examples from the boards.
I did not get any sense from the OP that he was intending to poke fun at poor grammar and spelling.
In fact, he noted it bothered him that it annoyed him and wanted to understand why that was better. As understanding is key to respect, it sounds to me like he wanted to handle the situation better, not worse.
And while there were a few complaining statements in the thread, most of the posts have been about how to ignore it, how to deal with it, or how to write better, which does not smack of disrespect either.
Yes but spell-check wouldn't catch "rouge". Also, many people are unaware of their browser's spell check feature. More shocking, some people do not even know what a spell check is because they don't have a personal computer.
While there are people who do not have access to a personal computer, and in other contexts I would agree it's important to call attention to that fact, it's not particularly relevant to this thread. This is a thread about posts on this message board, and those without access to PCs are unlikely to be using this message board, seeing as it's an Internet Website surrounding what is largely a hobby appealing to those with the disposable income to spend on it.
I actually get--or at least hope--that you're trying to make sure the posters here empathize with those who struggle with various issues related to education, finances, and disabilities, but I really think you're missing a huge amount of context---or rather adding in your own where it does not actually exist, and thus people are reacting with hostility to you because messages are getting crossed.
Also, of course, there is the issue that IS prevalent here--people don't like to be corrected. They will react poorly to being corrected on their spelling and grammar, how do you expect them to react to being corrected on their empathy or awareness of personal circumstances?
But I would not say it's wrong to encourage people to be empathetic and aware--there's just more diplomatic ways to do it than others. Just like there's more and less diplomatic ways to advise someone on their writing skills.
Ironically here, as you encourage others here to be empathetic and understanding to the needs of strangers, you are not being empathetic to the posters here, to their own reasons for wanting to have this conversation (which is NOT to poke fun, but to try and increase understanding of a situation). Perhaps you should look to that log in your eye first.
I would wager that the vast majority of spelling and grammar errors come from a lack of education, a lack of natural intelligence, or a learning disability. I do not believe that laziness is that strong of a factor considering that when a mistake is made it is usually pointed out and leads to embarrassment. No one likes to look stupid.
I used to work with an incredibly intelligent, well-educated woman who was in fact my senior in our job.
She wrote her emails like this:
---
hey there i need u 2 do sometin for me al needs that articel on his desk by 10 so can u prnt it out 4 me?
---
I am not exaggerating.
She was absolutely--based on formal print letters she occasionally had to write as part of her job--capable of writing better than that, but she felt that at the speed she had to work, she preferred to avoid spellcheck or grammar and just bang out a message, hit send, and hope other people understood it. I know because I discussed it with her. I told her once I had trouble understanding some of her emails and she then would take some extra time to proof her emails before she sent me the ones to me directly, which was kind of her. I never gave her a hard time about it beyond politely noting I was having trouble understanding things, and she was cool with adapting once it was noted to her.
There are people who write like that who for, better reasons or worse, feel like they don't "have time" to write well, and in turn write something that may nearly be incomprehensible.
Absolutely these other issues you mention--and that I and other posters mentioned--are definitely factors, but sometimes it is truly because someone doesn't feel like doing any better. They might have reasons like speed, but when one is on a message board posting, theoretically they have the free time to proof their posts before hitting submit.
Interestingly, though, as an aside, in my coworker's case, saying something actually caused her to change her behavior, and there were no hard feelings (she was the kind of person who was very blunt when need be so I trust had it bothered her she would have been very clear on that point).
If the concept that the poster is attempting to convey is clearly understood, there is no reason to point out spelling and grammar issues on a messageboard dedicated to a hobby that is about having fun.
But what if it is not clearly understood?
Disliking the jarring sensation of wrongly-spelled words and/or improperly-written sentences -- and posting about that dislike -- is not snobberyPointing it out, correcting it needlessly, and citing examples from the boards has the possibility of ostracizing people in our hobby's community. To me that is snobbery.
There were a few posts that pointed out common errors. I truly do not get the sense that any individual was singled out, however.
I think you are taking this very personally, and if that's the case, I apologize for any contribution I have made toward your own personal feelings, but again, I don't get the sense an insult was intended (save perhaps for a few joking posts, but not by the OP and not by every or even most posters here). And for that matter, if there were individual posts you felt were being abusive or insulting, you should have flagged them and ignored them.
Forgive my rudeness but I have worked with children in the past that were from extremely underprivileged neighborhoods.
So have I, in fact in a literacy program.
I learned very quickly they were very willing and able to speak up for themselves, and in fact got pissed off when people not of their own background tried to speak up for them, as if they needed a "savior" to stand up for them when they could do it for themselves, if they wanted. With all due respect, I'd bear that in mind in future.
As an aside, I also found the kids I taught to be extraordinarily diligent in trying to get their writing as good as it possibly could be, including in spelling and grammar -- much moreso in fact than in college writing tutoring I did around the same time. When you corrected the kid in the literacy program on their spelling, they accepted it and moved on. It was the rich, well educated college kids that got pissy when you pointed out simple errors, even when they precisely came to you for that very purpose. Food for thought.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, I was chiming in against the idea that merely finding the errors bothersome without correcting the poster meant I am being a big bad internet person for my thoughtcrime.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You were surprised that a poor person who struggled to go to college and earned a scholarship had better spelling than someone who didn't?
My point was that looking at how affluent a child's family was when they were growing up is an over-simplification of the problem. More to the point, I think it masks a larger underlying problem. You see, the absolute worst spellers that I know all came from middle-class families in reasonably well-to-do communities, much like myself. The main difference was that my school had actual spelling classes whereas their teachers adhered to the methods I described earlier — same income levels, markedly different results.
I don't believe the way to fix this is to make someone feel humiliated or belittled by pointing out their spelling and grammar mistakes on a message board that they have joined to discuss a recreational hobby.
I agree that seldom helps the recipient, but then a private message (like Hama described) is the exact opposite of humiliating someone in public. A PM is more akin to someone tapping you on the shoulder to let you know that the fly of your pants is open. Sure you may be embarrassed for a few moments, but it's better than having people snicker at you for the rest of the day for reasons you cannot fathom.
At any rate, my main issue with misspellings is very similar to my issue with people using dissimilar definitions of the same term, it hinders communication, and hindering communication impedes the ability to spread thoughts and ideas between people.
This may not be a huge issue in recreational posts/chats, but people are creatures of habit. If they misspell or misuse a word in casual conversation, they will most likely do so on a resumé or in a knowledge base article as well. After all, it takes no more time to spell a word correctly than it does to spell it incorrectly. In fact, I'd say there's a pretty good case to be made that misspellings waste time.
That said, DamnYouAutocorrect.com is a pretty hilarious site, although that might just underscore my point about wasting time. ;)
Usually it will be too late, often I will notice it before anyone points it out to me, but some of them I might have missed or might have used erroneously because I learned it wrong (recently SKR pointed out to me that I used expression 'beg the question' erroneously, which I did because I learned to use it incorrectly from people misusing it on internet, now I know better).
Yes, the rare occasions when I've posted on French-speaking sites, I've been more than happy to receive corrections also. My default response is "Merci :)".
In English or any language, I'd rather know :) I don't correct people as a rule, as I assume many wouldn't appreciate it, but I do.
Damn, another proof of my errors sees the light of the day. Couldn't you quote me after I corrected them? :(
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yar!
I just wanted to make a quick note about people getting defensive about being told about their mistakes.
Even if your intent is well, it is often not intent that people see. It is the delivery.
I've dabbled in many subjects, one of which was psychology. I've also worked with people of all ages in an educational environment. The main thing I got from that which is relevant to this discussion is the following: being given advice when it is not asked for is subconsciously taken as an offence.
Advice: "You did this wrong!"
Natural response: "Why are you attacking me!?"
Instead, I recommend that you ASK first: "Can I give you a critique and advice on the spelling/grammar of one of your posts?"
IF they say yes, then go nuts! They have given you permission to correct them, and unless you are extraordinarily harsh, it will all be taken in with a receptive ear.
IF they say no, then leave them be. They do not want your help, they do not want change, and anything you suggest otherwise will be taken as an offence.
Agree with this or not, the current knowledge of psychology (as I know it via study and experience) shows this to be a part of human nature.
Going out of your way to try to correct someone else's mistake is going to be taken as an attack on that person on a subconscious level - unless you ask them first.
That is why you may be receiving negative responses to your "aid". That is also a probable reason why some people may react badly to posts and threads like this. It is not specifically targeting them, but they may interpret it that way and respond in kind.
If you will accept my advice, it would be to always ask before giving advice - or at the very least: re-evaluate how you are giving said advice (and yes, I am aware that I just gave advice without asking first... I can live with the consequences in this particular situation).
~P
Damn, another proof of my errors sees the light of the day. Couldn't you quote me after I corrected them? :(
Fixed :)
Another point: language, whether written or spoken, is not a static thing.
Amen to that. It wasn't that long ago that all important nouns were capitalized, not just proper nouns. I'm an American ESOL teacher teaching British English to international students in New Zealand. The disparity between what students have been taught, what their expectations are, and what they'll encounter here in NZ leads me to believe that the acceptance of a certain amount of fluidity in grammar and spelling is necessary in this day and age.
No, Jesus doesn't cry if you begin a sentence with "and" or end one with "for". Splitting an infinitive is fine if you do it to clearly illustrate the point you're trying to make. I may feel that using "loose" instead of "lose" demonstrates ignorance and makes me not want to read someone's post, but I wager that in 5-10 years' time, I'll be in the minority.
Another point: language, whether written or spoken, is not a static thing.Amen to that. It wasn't that long ago that all important nouns were capitalized, not just proper nouns. I'm an American ESOL teacher teaching British English to international students in New Zealand. The disparity between what students have been taught, what their expectations are, and what they'll encounter here in NZ leads me to believe that the acceptance of a certain amount of fluidity in grammar and spelling is necessary in this day and age.
No, Jesus doesn't cry if you begin a sentence with "and" or end one with "for". Splitting an infinitive is fine if you do it to clearly illustrate the point you're trying to make. I may feel that using "loose" instead of "lose" demonstrates ignorance and makes me not want to read someone's post, but I wager that in 5-10 years' time, I'll be in the minority.
Generic Villain used the example of doughnut becoming donut, which is tightening up spelling according to common usage, and streamlining the word, actually making it easier to spell and read. I can dig this.
But it is fairly different to loose used for lose. This involves using a pre-existing word, with a different meaning altogether, in place of another purely due to an error which in fact obfuscates the meaning of the sentence - particularly to someone who is semi-literate or speaks English as a second language.
No, donut I can understand, new words like lol are examples of a vibrant, living language, but loose for lose is a mistake that has the potential to hinder understanding, and actually smears the meanings of two separate words together, lessening the precision of the language. The complete opposite of donut and lol. I hope your vision fails to materialise.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When someone mispells flail as fail, the typo is humorous.
Reverse also true, to wit: Epic Flail.
Another point: language, whether written or spoken, is not a static thing. It changes with every generation. How long until the proper, official spelling of doughnut becomes donut? And hey, why not? Doughnut is kind of ponderous, with two silent letters back-to-back. And for those of you horrified by the possibility of lol becoming acceptable, I'll direct you to the history of the word okay. In short, it comes from an intentional mispelling of "all correct." Shakespeare invented tons of words from scratch, such as eyeball and puking.
My point? When it comes to language, when enough people agree on something, it becomes true. To bring it full circle, the OP decided to use "dunno" in his thread title. Dunno isn't currently a word, but if enough people use it rather than don't know, it will become one. Language is about conveying ideas and thoughts. If it accomplishes that, than it has succeeded at its intended purpose. It's one thing to help someone out who's truly illiterate, but it's entirely another to nit pick a few typos.
Sigh. When I'm Benevolent Dictator of the World, English will be ratcheted back a decade or so (from now) and declared a Dead Language.
Down with teh Internetz!
:)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I find fascinating about english misspellings is that it's a pretty short list. Even if someone has a weak grasp of the language, I'd say it's a list of perhaps thirty different words that pop up again and again. Having english as a second language, I do make grammar errors and I know it, but avoiding the common misspellings is not a difficult thing to do, since there are so few of them.
And yes, I feel not taking the time to learn this, especially if it's your primary language, is being disrespectful to your readers. I know enough about it to know that truly dyslexic people have more spelling errors than rouge/rogue and their/they're, so that is not the problem.
Another issue is that while the meaning of the message might not be confused, what people notice changes. If I see a post where someone tries to say something important, but have a misspelling, that IS going to grate on a lot of people, and the error will be what they take home. Calling them stuffy or bigoted will not change that.
|
Whenever I use the word "doughnut" in a text, email, or post (which is fairly often because they are delicious) I usually get a response of: "I forgot you can spell it that way. Kudos to you for retaining all those silent letters." It seems I am in the minority for consistently spelling it the old-fashioned way.
Heck yes awesome news.
What I find fascinating about english misspellings is that it's a pretty short list. Even if someone has a weak grasp of the language, I'd say it's a list of perhaps thirty different words that pop up again and again. Having english as a second language, I do make grammar errors and I know it, but avoiding the common misspellings is not a difficult thing to do, since there are so few of them.
Indeed. What appears to be extremely frequent (besides the rouge) seeems to be switching i and e, as in sheild weilding theives, but also the other way round (it's deity, not diety unless you were referring to Anorexia, lesser goddess of eating disorders).
|
|
"I before E, except after C, or in the myriad of other exceptions to that rule."
The i before e except after c rule is not worth teaching. It applies only to words in which the ie or ei stands for a clear /ee/ sound and unless this is known, words such as sufficient, veil and their look like exceptions. There are so few words where the ei spelling for the /ee/ sound follows the letter c that it is easier to learn the specific words: receive, conceive, deceive (+ the related words receipt, conceit, deceit), perceive and ceiling.
"I before E, except after C, or in the myriad of other exceptions to that rule."
The i before e except after c rule is not worth teaching. It applies only to words in which the ie or ei stands for a clear /ee/ sound and unless this is known, words such as sufficient, veil and their look like exceptions. There are so few words where the ei spelling for the /ee/ sound follows the letter c that it is easier to learn the specific words: receive, conceive, deceive (+ the related words receipt, conceit, deceit), perceive and ceiling.
Yeah, that is weird.
Some languages don't seem to mind silent letters. Anyone know french? Yeah. With that example in mind, I believe it will be centuries at least before donut becomes any kind of norm.
I posted in wrong thread.
I posted in wrong thread.
Perhaps he's actually called Shapely but kept spelling it wrong as a kid and had it legally changed once he became an adult? ;)
Wrong use of "Then" & "Than"...
GRU
Guilty.
I can never keep those straight.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lack o' spelling annoys me too, arr. Surely, someone in tha party will play a spellcaster o' some sort. T'is just too much a part o' the game to have no spelling. Arr.
When someone mispells flail as fail, the typo is humorous.Reverse also true, to wit: Epic Flail.
Fail Snail.
Dire Fail.
*cries a single tear*
PBP (play-by-post) wood suk allot moret iff a randoom trool (troll+tool) posts on youses thread tellin U whas write an wrong wit your own posts!
jus sayin.....
I have had a player do that to a gm once when the gm got fury and furry mixed up.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
That would be especially troubling if you were playing a game using Greek Mythology, where "Furies" are something very specific.
Zeus: "You have provoked me for the last time! Behold, I shall unleash the full power of the Furries upon you!"
*enter guy in a squirrel suit*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The one that always gets to me is when people use "lightening" instead of "lightning."
*twitch*
I think "rouge" for "rogue" bothers me more than many other misspellings because it lacks even the excuse of making phonetic sense. I cannot think of any examples in English where "ou" is pronounced as a long "o" or where a "g" followed by a silent "e" is not pronounced "j" or "zh".
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I cannot think of any examples in English where "ou" is pronounced as a long "o" ...
Though, if you're thorough, you might think of a few.
I worked with several people who consistently said "The point is mute" or "that's a mute point", etc.
Meaning "it does not speak to us." ;)
This has a support group vibe to it, and I like that.
<stands up>
"Hi, my name is Xenh and I..."
<pauses dramatically>
Others: "It's okay Xenh, you're with people that love you. Open up and share."
"Okay, do you know how many people say 'rouge' when they mean 'rogue'!"
<twitch, twitch>
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was raised by an English teacher*, and then got a BA in English. I notice not only spelling and grammar mistakes, but also imperfect style. Run-on sentences, inelegant phrasing, ect. I have every right to be a grammar Nazi...
But phrases like "I could care less," ALL CAPS and redundant punctuation annoy me much more than 'rouge' and "Its mi karakter." There's no excuse for sloppiness like 'teh,' but I otherwise give writers a lot of leeway before letting myself get annoyed. Why? Because English is ridiculous. It's a mish-mash of other languages that a group of medieval monks tried to graft onto Latin syntax. It's convoluted and confusing, and it makes occasional sense at best.
So I generally go by the one-read rule: If I can understand what the writer is expressing on the first read-thru, spelling and grammar aren't important so I don't let it bother me. Because that's what language is for: expression. Anything more is academic.
*To this day, my mother corrects me when I say "Me and so-and-so..." "'So-and-so and I' is the proper use." Also, my father used to reply with "I don't know, can you?" when I would ask "Can I have X?" He eventually gave up though. :)
I can't even say that universal wizard cantrip...prest...something. I gave up years ago; I just call it 'Presto!' I don't even try to spell the official word. /tangent
I'm not going to tell you you're wasting your time...but you're wasting your time. ;) Unless you're in a few very specific career fields, your English is already more than sufficient. Your English is better than many native speakers, which is why nobody calls you out on your mistakes.
See, most native English speakers recognize how absurd and convoluted English is, and how it's based on common usage. (See Generic Villain's excellent post and Celestial Healer's on common usage.) So most of us allow a fair amount of leeway for mistakes. Because a mistake today can become tomorrow's accepted grammar. :)
(Did you know that no English speaking nation has a language academy, as many other languages do? All we have are a few broadly-recognized dictionaries, and grade-school teachers who inflict 'proper' grammar and spelling on each new generation.)
I worked with several people who consistently said "The point is mute" or "that's a mute point", etc. Annoyed the hell out of me. MOOT, damn it, MOOT!
Instead, I recommend that you ASK first: "Can I give you a critique and advice on the spelling/grammar of one of your posts?"
QFT. It works surprisingly often.
I was raised by an English teacher*, and then got a BA in English. I notice not only spelling and grammar mistakes, but also imperfect style. Run-on sentences, inelegant phrasing, ect. I have every right to be a grammar Nazi...
Does your stylistic authority extend to other languages and abbreviations, e.g. Latin?
Spellers anonymous
Your lack of an apostrophe arouses some and enrages others. :)
I'm not going to tell you you're wasting your time...but you're wasting your time. ;) Unless you're in a few very specific career fields, your English is already more than sufficient. Your English is better than many native speakers, which is why nobody calls you out on your mistakes.
My English wasn't good enough to pass Assessment Center session (at least I guess it was English that I failed because everything else went very good) when I was trying to get job at Aon Hewitt. It was listening from recording, however.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I generally go by the one-read rule: If I can understand what the writer is expressing on the first read-thru, spelling and grammar aren't important so I don't let it bother me. Because that's what language is for: expression. Anything more is academic.
My wife often corrects me when I mash two words together into one, saying 'that's not a word'.
I answer 'if you understood it, then yes it is'.
*To this day, my mother corrects me when I say "Me and so-and-so..." "'So-and-so and I' is the proper use." Also, my father used to reply with "I don't know, can you?" when I would ask "Can I have X?" He eventually gave up though. :)
Yep. Know that ol' feeling. Me old ma still rolls that first one out, though nowadays I'm conscious of her and think twice before speaking and mostly get it right. It's when others say it in her presence get it wrong and I see her bristle that it gets really... funny.
I had primary school (AustralianI version of U.S. elementary) teachers say the "I don't know... CAN you have it?" I learned pretty quick. Sarcastic bastards. :)
As a child of academic Americans in Australia I had to do a lot of translating of my friends' language expressions. Now when Nanna comes to pick up my son to take him to the park she asks him "Are we going to the paak?" ;)
(composed on "smart"phone) ;)
So I generally go by the one-read rule: If I can understand what the writer is expressing on the first read-thru, spelling and grammar aren't important so I don't let it bother me. Because that's what language is for: expression. Anything more is academic.My wife often corrects me when I mash two words together into one, saying 'that's not a word'.
I answer 'if you understood it, then yes it is'.
Funny. My wife worked as a journalist. I'm often the one correctig her spelling and introducing her to new words. She picks me up on style and grammar.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My English wasn't good enough to pass Assessment Center session (at least I guess it was English that I failed because everything else went very good)
Well, Drejk. Everything else went very well. :P
It will be quite funny when I eventually slip up in this thread, but I will certainly have deserved it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
...correctig her spelling ...
This is the greatest thread of all time.
What? That is the way to spell correctig is't it? :)
My English wasn't good enough to pass Assessment Center session (at least I guess it was English that I failed because everything else went very good)Well, Drejk. Everything else went very well. :P
Good cannot be used in this expression? It's worth knowing because in Polish 'good' would be equally correct.