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Double Slice and Power Attack - Official response?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

Yes, I know this has been discussed, and yes, I know how it works. However, I use Hero Lab, which I know a lot of other people do, too, and it shows up wrong in Hero Lab. Unfortunately, they will not fix it until there is an official response about it, so I ask it here, in the hopes there will be an official response, and they will fix this once and for all.

Power Attack gives you a bonus to damage, but that bonus is halved when using an offhand weapon.
Double Slice allows you to use your full strength mod when dealing damage with your offhand.

When you use both, does the damage penalty for offhand Power Attack disappear, or is it still halved?

Again, while I know the answer to this question, and I have linked the other thread about this same issue over on Hero Lab's forums, they have stated multiple times that they need an official response. So, any non-official responses, while appreciated by me, will not sway them in the slightest.

So, just humbly asking for an official response to this. Does the offhand penalty to the Power Attack damage disappear if you also have Double Slice?


wait, how do you know hero lab is 'wrong'? how are they applying it?
per RAW i dont see why double slice would affect power attack's modifiers.
power attack doesn't depend on what STR damage you are applying to an attack, but how it is classed/wielded.
what about having an ability to apply more damage to an attack would change power attack?
do you think 2-handed fighters also should increase the amount of power attack, since their STR bonus increases for 2-handed weapons?
(in addition to the greater power attack ability at high level)

the only case i see is monk flurry 'no such thing as offhand', which obviously ceases to be an offhand attack, but just becomes another distinct weapon attack. i'm not sure how hero lab handles that, but given monk flurry seems to be called out as a faq/errata candidate, i don't think much of substance will be done until that happens. until then, i feel comfortable saying that 'no such thing as offhand' means you use the normal PA modifier for that attack, not the offhand PA modifier. if paizo intended double slice to interact with power attack in that manner, they could have not bothered with the crunch math of STR bonuses and just said 'your off-hand attack is treated as a normal 1-handed attack', PERIOD. post-errata, who knows what flurry will say. as-is, that aspect of flurry is better than double slice exactly because of power attack, but you also can't benefit from 2wf feats like 2 weapon rend while flurrying.

fyi, if you want an official responce, hitting the FAQ button on your own post would help.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

How you hold a weapon effects Power Attack, not how much strength is added to damage.

Double Slice has absolutely no effect on how Power Attack works with off-hand weapons.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:

How you hold a weapon effects Power Attack, not how much strength is added to damage.

Double Slice has absolutely no effect on how Power Attack works with off-hand weapons.

I think he knows that what you're saying is RAW. I think he thinks that RAI is that Double Slice should allow the damage from the off-hand weapon to be calculated as if it were the main hand, for all purposes, Str bonus and Power Attack.

I'm in the same camp. It doesn't, but I think it should.


Power Attack only cares about if a weapon is 2-handed, 1-handed, or an offhand weapon.

For natural weapons it cares if the primary weapon is the only attack, one of several primary attacks, or a secondary attacks.

The amount of damage a weapon gets from the str mod is a non factor. If it were power attack would have to account for Overhand Chop, and other similar abilities.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It's not RAW, and I am sure it's not RAI.

There will be no Developer response for an Errata, or FAQ.

It works as designed, and you will need houserules to make it work otherwise.


in the OP's post, he says 'yes, I know how it works. However, I use Hero Lab... and it shows up wrong in Hero Lab'.
wrong compared to what? to how you know it works? to how you know it DOESN'T work, but wished it to?
really, given the people behind hero lab make their living from it, at least in part,
i think it would be more respectful to not say their product produces 'wrong' results.
i'm not saying it's illegitimate to ask how PRPG rules work, just with how you chose to do it, re: Hero Lab.

Grand Lodge

Sorry, I should have explained better, which I didn't.

In Hero Lab, when you have both Power Attack and Double Slice, it shows as full damage bonus from Power Attack on the offhand, when it should be halved.

The wording for Power Attack's damage increase for offhand doesn't say anything about your strength bonus, just that it is half the damage bonus that you would normally get (2 damage, 1 with offhand, for example.)

Sczarni

I'd like to know what calculations Hero Lab uses before I comment if they are right or wrong.

JolarEQ: could you please elaborate on what numbers Hero Lab is giving you?

Edit: Ninja'd - thank you

Grand Lodge

Krodjin wrote:

I'd like to know what calculations Hero Lab uses before I comment if they are right or wrong.

JolarEQ: could you please elaborate on what numbers Hero Lab is giving you?

Sure. Level 6 fighter, uses a longsword and light shield, which is for shield bash. Has Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice and Power Attack.

Power Attack not active, the longsword has an attack of 12, and the shield bash has an attack of 9. The damage from the longsword is 1d8+7, and the shield bash is 1d3+5.

Power Attack active, the longsword has an attack of 10, and the shield bash has an attack of 7. The damage from the longsword is 1d8+11, and the shield bash is 1d3+9.

Both mainhand and offhand are getting a -2 to attack and a +4 to damage when Power Attack is active.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That's an issue with HeroLab, not the rules.

I am not sure this is the appropriate place for this.

Sczarni

Faq'd.

FWIW: Jolar, by RAW you are correct and it appears Hero Lab is not correct - at least how I read RAW.

I've been hesitant on purchasing this program - would you say it's worth it even with the bugs? Which in all fairness to Hero Lab should be expected in certain instances when RAW is unclear.

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That's an issue with HeroLab, not the rules.

I am not sure this is the appropriate place for this.

Oh, I know it's an issue with Hero Lab. The problem is, they won't change it in Hero Lab without an official response from Paizo about how it works. Hence why I was asking here. Wasn't sure how to go about getting an official response, figured I'd try the rules forum.

Grand Lodge

Krodjin wrote:

Faq'd.

FWIW: Jolar, by RAW you are correct and it appears Hero Lab is not correct - at least how I read RAW.

I've been hesitant on purchasing this program - would you say it's worth it even with the bugs? Which in all fairness to Hero Lab should be expected in certain instances when RAW is unclear.

I would say it's worth it. Bugs are usually taken care of right away (most of them, at least!) and some of them are actually taken care of by other users that write addons for it. The only issue with Hero Lab is the pricing. The base is ok, but all the different packages for Pathfinder, it can add up.

But, in general, I love the program. Makes things a lot easier for me to keep track of.

Sczarni

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That's an issue with HeroLab, not the rules.

I am not sure this is the appropriate place for this.

You're probably right, but I guess HL has told the OP they need errata/FAQ before they will address their issue - which is strange given how unambiguous these feats are with their wording.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

thanks for clarifying things... sorry if i came off harsh, but i don't use HL and was just going off your post.
sounds like Hero Lab is definitely diverging from RAW because of how they 'feel' the rules should work.
if they actually had a question, i don't see why they haven't emailed Paizo about it,
i know alot of people do use Hero Lab (not me),
and I'm sure Paizo would prefer if HL is accurate and thus would promptly respond to them.
that HL is obstinate in not implementing RAW in this case definitely does reflect badly on them, IMHO.
i mean, there is literally nothing except one's imagination that would suggest PA cares about what STR mod is applying to a weapon.
besides the 2-Handed Fighter Archeype which modifies STR dmg, there's also stuff that lets you do DEX to dmg instead of STR, how do they account for those by their 'rationale'?

i mean, their stance isn't much different than saying 'oh, you can do d10 damage? that's the same as a ogre, so you gain all racial effects of ogres.'

if they really want to diverge from RAW like this, they should put it in a user-customizable 'settings' box, where you can check which functionality of rules you want - strict RAW, their favorite 'liberty', whatever. they could put alot of popular houserules in there. some of these they can mark with 'we really believe this is the intent of the rules/Paizo, but per strict Raw it doesn't work unless you check this 'houserule' box'. there is certainly plenty of stuff like that within the game... i don't think this is one of the STRONGER of those cases though.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I would send a message to the Herolab people.

This is not really a Paizo thing.


FAQed for you.

I'd give Hero Lab some credit - if they don't want to change something then they think it is RAW. Likely though it's just a bug and they do fix them. If the Hero Lab folks responded directly to the OP saying they won't change it I'd personally like to see the message. I suggest that a post is made on the bug report thread on the Hero Lab forums though.

Grand Lodge

Hawktitan wrote:

FAQed for you.

I'd give Hero Lab some credit - if they don't want to change something then they think it is RAW. Likely though it's just a bug and they do fix them. If the Hero Lab folks responded directly to the OP saying they won't change it I'd personally like to see the message. I suggest that a post is made on the bug report thread on the Hero Lab forums though.

It was posted on the Hero Lab bug forum. Twice. Once by me, once by someone else. The answer was, and I quote, "This was previously discussed and decided against making a change unless there is some official eratta." Thread is titled "Bug Reports - Version 7.1", page 55. HL - Pathfinder Roleplaying Game subforum.

So, they're sticking with RAI as opposed to RAW.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I would send a message to the Herolab people.

This is not really a Paizo thing.

I did, they told me without official word, no change. Hence why I'm asking Paizo.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I really don't think this is an issue with how HeroLab views RAW.

It's likely a bug, and you should go to the HeroLab guys to tell them.

There is also nothing to suggest that this interaction between Double Slice and Power Attack is RAI either.


I stepped over to that thread. Hopefully they see the error of their ways. :)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am not trying to downplay your question.

I just think this is not the place for it.

Good luck though.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am not trying to downplay your question.

I just think this is not the place for it.

We got that you think it is not a pathfinder thing.

The real issue is that HL has clearly said they believe it is right and will not fix it without clerification from Pathfinder. I think it is a fair question to ask here and if the Devs are willing, we can show HL the offical reply.


danielc wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am not trying to downplay your question.

I just think this is not the place for it.

We got that you think it is not a pathfinder thing.

The real issue is that HL has clearly said they believe it is right and will not fix it without clerification from Pathfinder. I think it is a fair question to ask here and if the Devs are willing, we can show HL the offical reply.

I did post there, and they are not using RAW. However I know they are having to deal with various game systems so mistakes are bound to be made. They can't be expected to be experts in all of them. If they want to keep getting my money however they will be expected to learn the system better or use RAW. If the RAW is incorrect then I can be more understanding.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hey, this is the Aaron that replied to your thread, JolarEQ. I want to let everyone know that we've had trouble in the past implementing ambiguities one way or the other based on forum consensus. For that reason, I tend to be pretty conservative when it comes to changing something in HL. I myself am not allowed to converse with the purple Paizo people personally, so it seemed a better solution to send you. That's why I asked you to investigate this issue and see if you could get an official response before making the change.

That said, my fellows here at Lone Wolf have checked into this as well now, and their consensus is that the issue isn't as ambiguous as I'd thought. So I made a bad call, was duely chastened, and I do apologize for the difficulty I put you into. I'll make the changes so that the two interact as you proposed.

Grand Lodge

Aaron Beal 32 wrote:

Hey, this is the Aaron that replied to your thread, JolarEQ. I want to let everyone know that we've had trouble in the past implementing ambiguities one way or the other based on forum consensus. For that reason, I tend to be pretty conservative when it comes to changing something in HL. I myself am not allowed to converse with the purple Paizo people personally, so it seemed a better solution to send you. That's why I asked you to investigate this issue and see if you could get an official response before making the change.

That said, my fellows here at Lone Wolf have checked into this as well now, and their consensus is that the issue isn't as ambiguous as I'd thought. So I made a bad call, was duely chastened, and I do apologize for the difficulty I put you into. I'll make the changes so that the two interact as you proposed.

Thanks for the response, Aaron! I understand completely why you asked me to come and find an answer to this, and I'm glad the issue has finally been put to rest.


great it looks like it worked out.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Once again Lone Wolf shows why they are one of the best.

Well done Aaron.


Nice outcome.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

OK, read this thread and I must be missing something. These feats provide two different bonuses to damage, that aren't dependent on one another. I'm not seeing an issue here. Maybe some weird errata I missed.

Double slice allows you to use your full STR bonus on an offhand weapon.
Power attack allows you to take a penalty to hit for an equal bonus to damage with an off hand weapon (aka, one for one).

I could use some help with this one. Thanks.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
sowhereaminow wrote:

OK, read this thread and I must be missing something. These feats provide two different bonuses to damage, that aren't dependent on one another. I'm not seeing an issue here. Maybe some weird errata I missed.

Double slice allows you to use your full STR bonus on an offhand weapon.
Power attack allows you to take a penalty to hit for an equal bonus to damage with an off hand weapon (aka, one for one).

I could use some help with this one. Thanks.

What you are missing is that Hero Lab was calculating the totals in a different way then many of us (yourself included) understood the rules. When it was brought to their attention they were reluctant to change the program because they thought it was unclear. Now that they have been given a different point of view they have agreed to adjust the program.

Hope that helps.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
danielc wrote:
sowhereaminow wrote:

OK, read this thread and I must be missing something. These feats provide two different bonuses to damage, that aren't dependent on one another. I'm not seeing an issue here. Maybe some weird errata I missed.

Double slice allows you to use your full STR bonus on an offhand weapon.
Power attack allows you to take a penalty to hit for an equal bonus to damage with an off hand weapon (aka, one for one).

I could use some help with this one. Thanks.

What you are missing is that Hero Lab was calculating the totals in a different way then many of us (yourself included) understood the rules. When it was brought to their attention they were reluctant to change the program because they thought it was unclear. Now that they have been given a different point of view they have agreed to adjust the program.

Hope that helps.

Yep, thanks. Looked like a rules question, then went herolab.


sowhereaminow wrote:

OK, read this thread and I must be missing something. These feats provide two different bonuses to damage, that aren't dependent on one another. I'm not seeing an issue here. Maybe some weird errata I missed.

Double slice allows you to use your full STR bonus on an offhand weapon.
Power attack allows you to take a penalty to hit for an equal bonus to damage with an off hand weapon (aka, one for one).

I could use some help with this one. Thanks.

I'm with you. Double Slice negates the rule in the Power Attack description which is there because that is a penalty you would have even without taking Power Attack.
When using Double Slice with Power Attack you add your full strength damage to both attacks.

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