Hi,
A member of our groups argues that he can create a Staff of Wishes, RAW, for a one-time investment:
"The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster..."
And
"The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends)."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Creating-Staves
This means that a Staff of Wishes, where a Whish costs 2 charges is:
400*17*9+50*25k/2=686.200
It will take 20 days to recharge the staff.
The staff can cast 5 wishes consecutively, and therefore can be used to give a +5 inherent bonus.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves
Is there anything RAW against this?
I would not allow it, since it would ruin the game. All characters would in a few years of game time have +5 inherent bonuses on all stats.
RAW against it, not really, but the item creation "guidelines" are not RAW, not everything you can create with it is reasonable.
My favourite example is putting multiple different amulet of mighty fists on one, instead of having a +5 equivalent one, you can have 5 times a +1 (equivalent) and it costs a lot less. (use 4 +1 for abilities because otherwise it won't stack).
Just don't allow it, because it would be homebrew anyway (only based on official guidelies). RAW items would be those written down in the books.
It's legal by the item creation guidelines.
It also seems alright as an item. It takes an obscene amount of money and almost two years to craft one, and it's really just a nice boost in combat. +5 inherent to all stats is much more easily acquired through planar binding.
RAW, it is up to the DM to allow or disallow, they say what can and cannot be created. As stated the guidelines are roughly what you should expect to see cost wise, if the item is particularly powerful (or weak) cost gets adjusted by what the DM decides.
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Actually the item production cost is slightly different:
Step 1)
Spell level 9, CL 17, highest spell cost 2 charges
400*9*17/2 = 30.600 market price of the staff, it determine the basic production time (31 days) and the basic production cost 30.600/2= 15.300 gp
Step 2)
"The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends)."
So the components for 25 wish:
25.000*50/2= 625.000
Final production cost: 640.300 gp
The material component cost isn't factored in the production time and is applied at full, there isn't a difference production cost/market price for that.
Final note:
the wish staff don't follow the magic item guidelines as it hasn't a second spell in it. By RAW "A staff is a long shaft that stores several spells." (under "Staves", magic items descriptions).
To follow the rules that staff would have a second spell in it, both cast at level 17.
Let's say the creator were to add detect magic to make it at cheap as possible:
200*1/2*17=3.400 gp
Another 3 days of work to create it.
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Pet peeve of mine: it don't work with a staff, but a 4th level wizard with maximized intelligence, skill focus in craft jewellery and masterwork tools could make a gem of unlimited wishes at level 4.
Class skill +3, 4 skills, +2 masterwork items, +5 int 20, +3 skill focus = +17
DC 17 (CL) + 5 base, +5 not knowing wish = 27
Taking 10 the wizard would be successful 100% of the time.
A non spellcasting jeweller with Master Craftsman and Craft wondrous items could do that at level 7 (and he would have to wait so long only to qualify for the feats).
I don't see why every kingdom in the world isn't sponsoring the production of that kind of items.
/rant
I don't see why every kingdom in the world isn't sponsoring the production of that kind of items.
/rant
Their GMs won't let them. ;)
Is there a staff of wishes in the PF books ? No? Then it is a custom item and you can forbid it.
The kind of item is only powerfull if the PCs have enough time to use it..
Is there a staff of wishes in the PF books ? No? Then it is a custom item and you can forbid it.
Is there RAW to support this?
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They actually have more than half a million gold? Where did they get that kind of cash? Do they 'really' want to spend more than 2 years of in game time doing nothing but crafting? (Even with accelerated crafting rules this is still a year or so of crafting time.)
As a GM there's TONS of ways to make that stop if you do not want it to happen, of course simply having a backbone and saying 'no, I don't want that kind of power in my game.' would be the easiest.
Here is a short list of plot ideas I had to use against such a player.
- Thieves find out a powerful Wizard has HALF A MILLION GOLD and is buying out towns looking for DIAMONDS worth 25k each! He has about 25-50 of these on hand. (ca-ching! The guild would be calling an 'all hands on deck' for this job and specifically tailor their tactics against wizards.)
- An Dragon attacks the Wizard at some point claiming he is in possession of some of his 'eggs' stolen from his lair months ago. He's kinda crazy in the head. Or maybe those large diamonds are his eggs, dum dum da da!
- Earth Elementals interupt the Wizard while crafting looking for advice on the best way to remove 'warts' i.e. more diamonds, though their diamonds are not worth anything, and they smash the shop up on accident. Destroying a days worth of work.
Assuming its possible in order to make a staff of wishes you need fifty times the expensive material component to make the spell. So the formula is like this:
For just the staff:
9 (SL) x17 (CL) X400 = 61,200 GP thats 30,600 if crafting yourself as I assume you would be.
PLUS
25000 (material component for one casting X 50 = 1,250,000
So if you're crafting it yourself a staff of wishes (10 per day and you still have to charge it like a normal staff) = 1,280,600 Gold pieces.
If you got that kind of mad cash then the DM deserves what he gets. ;-)
He had it cost two charges, so the price was cut in half. Otherwise his math was spot on.
Note that to recharge it he has to cast the spell into it and blow the material component again, if it's a staff. There's no cost savings here, except to have 5 Wishes on standby. It's little different then having 5 scrolls of wish on you, really.
The way to abuse this is if you have Staff Mastery, and can have the spell in the staff cast using your spell slots, in which case you don't burn the staff charges and don't have to pay to recharge it.
That's a corner case and only possible with a high level sorc. Given the cost, I really wouldn't care. He has to blow fifty wishes to break even with the thing...sure, he can do it. But as has been pointed out, the GP cost means he's going to spend almost two years making the thing. What's the rest of the party going to be doing while he does this? Where's he going to get more then half a million gold?
If he starts abusing Wishes, well, there's an entire AP about the limits of Wishes and Wishcrafting and powers that be taking a dim view of such things.
As a campaign ending kind of super acheivement, I think this is fine. +5 Inherents to all scores for all his friends? Sure sure. +2, yay. Significant investment in time, money, skills? Yep.
Waaaaaay less cheesy then enslaving two efreeti and getting 6 wishes a day at level 11 with Planar binding? Yes.
===Aelryinth
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Assuming its possible in order to make a staff of wishes you need fifty times the expensive material component to make the spell. So the formula is like this:
For just the staff:
9 (SL) x17 (CL) X400 = 61,200 GP thats 30,600 if crafting yourself as I assume you would be.
PLUS
25000 (material component for one casting X 50 = 1,250,000
So if you're crafting it yourself a staff of wishes (10 per day and you still have to charge it like a normal staff) = 1,280,600 Gold pieces.
If you got that kind of mad cash then the DM deserves what he gets. ;-)
And take 3.5 years to make.
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He had it cost two charges, so the price was cut in half. Otherwise his math was spot on.
Note that to recharge it he has to cast the spell into it and blow the material component again, if it's a staff. There's no cost savings here, except to have 5 Wishes on standby. It's little different then having 5 scrolls of wish on you, really.
The way to abuse this is if you have Staff Mastery, and can have the spell in the staff cast using your spell slots, in which case you don't burn the staff charges and don't have to pay to recharge it.
That's a corner case and only possible with a high level sorc. Given the cost, I really wouldn't care. He has to blow fifty wishes to break even with the thing...sure, he can do it. But as has been pointed out, the GP cost means he's going to spend almost two years making the thing. What's the rest of the party going to be doing while he does this? Where's he going to get more then half a million gold?
If he starts abusing Wishes, well, there's an entire AP about the limits of Wishes and Wishcrafting and powers that be taking a dim view of such things.
As a campaign ending kind of super acheivement, I think this is fine. +5 Inherents to all scores for all his friends? Sure sure. +2, yay. Significant investment in time, money, skills? Yep.
Waaaaaay less cheesy then enslaving two efreeti and getting 6 wishes a day at level 11 with Planar binding? Yes.
===Aelryinth
you don't half the cost of the diamonds.
He had it cost two charges, so the price was cut in half. Otherwise his math was spot on.
Note that to recharge it he has to cast the spell into it and blow the material component again, if it's a staff. There's no cost savings here, except to have 5 Wishes on standby. It's little different then having 5 scrolls of wish on you, really.
The way to abuse this is if you have Staff Mastery, and can have the spell in the staff cast using your spell slots, in which case you don't burn the staff charges and don't have to pay to recharge it.
That's a corner case and only possible with a high level sorc. Given the cost, I really wouldn't care. He has to blow fifty wishes to break even with the thing...sure, he can do it. But as has been pointed out, the GP cost means he's going to spend almost two years making the thing. What's the rest of the party going to be doing while he does this? Where's he going to get more then half a million gold?
If he starts abusing Wishes, well, there's an entire AP about the limits of Wishes and Wishcrafting and powers that be taking a dim view of such things.
As a campaign ending kind of super acheivement, I think this is fine. +5 Inherents to all scores for all his friends? Sure sure. +2, yay. Significant investment in time, money, skills? Yep.
Waaaaaay less cheesy then enslaving two efreeti and getting 6 wishes a day at level 11 with Planar binding? Yes.
===Aelryinth
you don't half the cost of the diamonds.
Right. So it'd be 15K something to make plus the 1.25 Million in diamond dust.
This is a perfect example of why the custom crafting section states that this formula is simply a 'guideline' for judging an item's worth. A GM is allowed to say that a Staff of Wishes would be worth several times that amount if he thinks that it would cause problems in his game.
Coffee, Winterwalker, it's right there in the original post. Item creation rules:
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
His math is on. The cost of the diamonds is divided, too.
=Aelryinth
This is a perfect example of why the custom crafting section states that this formula is simply a 'guideline' for judging an item's worth. A GM is allowed to say that a Staff of Wishes would be worth several times that amount if he wants to.
As noted, unless he can cast the spell in the staff using his own spell slots, this is just having 5 wishes on standby, for a significant investment...he still has to blow 25k to recharge the staff.
And I believe only high level sorcs can pull off the no charge use stunt?
==Aelryinth
This is a perfect example of why the custom crafting section states that this formula is simply a 'guideline' for judging an item's worth. A GM is allowed to say that a Staff of Wishes would be worth several times that amount if he wants to.As noted, unless he can cast the spell in the staff using his own spell slots, this is just having 5 wishes on standby, for a significant investment...he still has to blow 25k to recharge the staff.
And I believe only high level sorcs can pull off the no charge use stunt?
==Aelryinth
To recharge the staff he would only need to give up two 9th level spell slots over two days. There's nothing in the staff recharging rules that states that he would need to pay for the components again (unless I'm missing something).
A staff can hold spells of any level, and the minimum caster level of a staff is 8th.
Coffee, Winterwalker, it's right there in the original post. Item creation rules:
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
His math is on. The cost of the diamonds is divided, too.
=Aelryinth
Well I learned something today. Didn't see that coming. ;-)
So it cost 630,000-ish to make. Still hefty, but for 5 free wishes every 10 days it'll pay for itself in 50 days. Incidentally the same time frame needed to give yourself a +5 in every stat.
by the 'using up his spells' language, I would presume he is castng the spell into the staff, and has to use the comps. I'd not let him get away with just spending slots.
Otherwise, you can abuse this much, much sooner by doing the same stunt with Permanency, Continual Flame, etc...anything with expensive comps.
==Aelryinth
On another note: what do you do with a crap ton of wishes instead of 600K ish worth of gear?
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Coffee, Winterwalker, it's right there in the original post. Item creation rules:
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
His math is on. The cost of the diamonds is divided, too.
=Aelryinth
Yup, I knew that, i missed the fact he was using more charges per spell, I assumed he halfed the totals at 1/charge a wish not 2.
No.Is there RAW to support this?Is there a staff of wishes in the PF books ? No? Then it is a custom item and you can forbid it.
Well actually, there might be.
The description of the feat Create Staff states:
You can create any staff whose prerequisite you meet.
Craft Staff PFRPG pg.120
Where as the description for Create Wands states:
You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower
spell that you know.
Craft Staff PFRPG pg.120
And under the description of staves in the magic item chapter we find:
A staff is a long shaft that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells.
Magic Items PFRPG pg.491
I would therefor argue that as written, a staff must be created from the lists found in the rulebooks, or created after a LOT of research and GM permission.
What your player wants is a wand of wishes, and a wand cannot be created with any spell above 4th level.
From a game mechanic point of view a staff of wishes would be a totally unbalanced campaign destroyer, and I think the designers realized that. That is why the item does not exist in any of the staff lists.
From a story point of view, if the staff could be created wouldn't there be a bunch of completely indestructible imortal wizards running around causing no end of trouble?
Just my two coppers.
-Erich
Coffee, Winterwalker, it's right there in the original post. Item creation rules:
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
His math is on. The cost of the diamonds is divided, too.
=Aelryinth
Well I learned something today. Didn't see that coming. ;-)
So it cost 630,000-ish to make. Still hefty, but for 5 free wishes every 10 days it'll pay for itself in 50 days. Incidentally the same time frame needed to give yourself a +5 in every stat.
Sixty days (you have six stats).
Refer to winter's assertion that he can recharge it without spending comps. Do you back this?
==Aelryinth
by the 'using up his spells' language, I would presume he is castng the spell into the staff, and has to use the comps. I'd not let him get away with just spending slots.
Otherwise, you can abuse this much, much sooner by doing the same stunt with Permanency, Continual Flame, etc...anything with expensive comps.
==Aelryinth
The reason why I disagree is because you don't need to know the highest level spell (or the most expensive one) on the staff in order to recharge it. You could add the spell Magic Missile to the Staff of Wishes, and then you can recharge it as long as you have A. Magic Missile as a spell you can cast, and B. 9th level spell slots to burn.
Also, I would never allow a Staff of Permanency in my games. There's a reason why these item crafting rules are really 'guidelines' ;)
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Coffee, Winterwalker, it's right there in the original post. Item creation rules:
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
His math is on. The cost of the diamonds is divided, too.
=Aelryinth
Well I learned something today. Didn't see that coming. ;-)
So it cost 630,000-ish to make. Still hefty, but for 5 free wishes every 10 days it'll pay for itself in 50 days. Incidentally the same time frame needed to give yourself a +5 in every stat.
Sixty days (you have six stats).
Refer to winter's assertion that he can recharge it without spending comps. Do you back this?
==Aelryinth
Not my assertion, or my liking, but I think I do back it by RAW that you could expend a slot (doesnt say 'cast' a spell) so free wishes.
It's lame.
Efreet as a race have 3 wishes a day, unlimited, and are an entire race. Do they dominate mortal existence?
No.
Having unlimited wishes and abusing it is a great way to bring in some real powerful forces to smack you down.
I'd be more amused when the staff gets stolen from him, and someone starts misusing his staff to create all sorts of havoc.
Imagine a sorceror with the staff casting ability blowing 15 wishes a day or something, and how rapidly things could get out of hand, all because of that staff. Especially if he's a follower of Rovagug and trying to raise up the FIrewalker, or something.
==Aelryinth
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Note that staves have to be thematic. I'm not sure what level 1 spell fits thematically with a staff of Wish. Maybe Prestidigitation or some variant.
One free wish every 2 days is going to take a long time to truly imbalance things, and any item that valuable and useful is going to draw all sorts of envious attention...after he's done the hard work of making it, of course.
To be frank, a spellcaster would be insane to attempt this. I'd call it a given that this is not a new idea, and that the components to make this would be rare and somewhat unique...and very interested parties are watching for it. WHen someone starts sucking up massive quantities of those comps, and an archmage disappears from view, they know what's up, and they go looking for him.
And on the day he makes the staff, in comes twenty archcasters all seeking to claim it for themselves when he's at his weakest, having sussed out and bypassed all his defenses, and equally happy to destroy it to deny it to his rivals.
One of them might be nice enough to Send him a message about the kind of attention he's attracting, and what's going to happen...maybe after he's out only a 100k of comps, instead of 3/4 of a million.
Certainly, when he starts making any kind of inquiries about this sort of thing, he should find out what happened to folk who tried it in the past. Exploding craters, horrible dooms, fleeing to distant worlds, divine wrath, legions of demons, etc etc. Events worthy of such a thing being made.
==Aelryinth
==Aelryinth
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Efreet as a race have 3 wishes a day, unlimited, and are an entire race. Do they dominate mortal existence?
No.
Having unlimited wishes and abusing it is a great way to bring in some real powerful forces to smack you down.
I'd be more amused when the staff gets stolen from him, and someone starts misusing his staff to create all sorts of havoc.
Imagine a sorceror with the staff casting ability blowing 15 wishes a day or something, and how rapidly things could get out of hand, all because of that staff. Especially if he's a follower of Rovagug and trying to raise up the FIrewalker, or something.
==Aelryinth
RAW aside, yes, crafting this item, or even attempting to, would be a catalysing event in my game to get both good and evil fighting over it.
Even as a player I wouldn't want this in game, it's too much of a game breaker.
Assuming its possible in order to make a staff of wishes you need fifty times the expensive material component to make the spell. So the formula is like this:
For just the staff:
9 (SL) x17 (CL) X400 = 61,200 GP thats 30,600 if crafting yourself as I assume you would be.
PLUS
25000 (material component for one casting X 50 = 1,250,000
So if you're crafting it yourself a staff of wishes (10 per day and you still have to charge it like a normal staff) = 1,280,600 Gold pieces.
If you got that kind of mad cash then the DM deserves what he gets. ;-)
I'm confused here, the rules for staff creation say:
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.Creating Staves PFRPG pg. 552
Dosen't that mean that there IS no additional costs for material components other than casting the spell once during the creation of the staff?
-Erich
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Assuming its possible in order to make a staff of wishes you need fifty times the expensive material component to make the spell. So the formula is like this:
For just the staff:
9 (SL) x17 (CL) X400 = 61,200 GP thats 30,600 if crafting yourself as I assume you would be.
PLUS
25000 (material component for one casting X 50 = 1,250,000
So if you're crafting it yourself a staff of wishes (10 per day and you still have to charge it like a normal staff) = 1,280,600 Gold pieces.
If you got that kind of mad cash then the DM deserves what he gets. ;-)
I'm confused here, the rules for staff creation say:
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.
Creating Staves PFRPG pg. 552Dosen't that mean that there IS no additional costs for material components other than casting the spell once during the creation of the staff?
-Erich
keep reading, you missed a post above stating you need to provide 50 castings worth of MC's. Coffee's math is correct above. (though he only did the base math, not the 2 chargers per cast 50% reduction)
No.Is there RAW to support this?Is there a staff of wishes in the PF books ? No? Then it is a custom item and you can forbid it.
RAW, GM is the final arbiter, i.e. it's supported by RAW in relation to that rule - a rule which is the GM's best friend (getting started section, titled "The Most Important Rule").
Edited to Add: "The Most Important Rule" is the one rule that rules lawyers like to forget (and hope their GM forgets) and wish didn't exist.
I am really happy to see the discussion, it it rich and makes me think.
For a party of level 20-ish characters, I would allow this, and build a campaign around it. The result is indeed an artifact, and I would let the characters work for it until they reach lvl 21, Epic levels. At level 21, having the artifact would be utterly cool.
I would require that the staff is thematic, with significant secondary spells, which would drive up the cost. I would also add some deity-representative interaction, as well as ensure that the demon lords coming to steal the item would have CR in the early to mid twenties. That would make the item even more valuable to the party, when they have to b&+*#-slap Demon lords around to keep it. The contenders would dry up after a few unsuccesfull attempts. And if the attempt is succesfull, well there you have a new mini-campaign to reclaim the item.
If he tries to cheese the item before level 20, the above mentioned Demons will apropriate the artifact, and 'hold' it for him... ;-)
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Diego, I think you are in error.
The material cost is factored in when determining the basecost(just look at tome of something +x)
You can't take 10 when there is some sort of risk involved - I would say losing the value of magical item when crafting it makes it risky, even if you need to roll 2 to succede.
The later part can be fixed by making a +10 spellcraft (or whatever skill used) magical item.
Rules about base price:
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it does increase the final market price.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
Taking 10:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
You can always Take 10 when not in danger or distracted. You are confusing the rules with those for Taking 20, it is a common mistake.
Thanks Da'ath:
The Most Important Rule
The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
I do however object against placing this thread under Houserules.
It is a question about RAW.