Accidental killings, do you give XP?


Advice

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If a pc accidentally kills another pc, do you give them xp?

If a pc accidentally kills a monster or npc, do you give them xp?


For the PC on PC violence I might actually subtract xp for friendly meaning and all. For the monster or NPC that depends. If they were in combat and dropped an AOE or something I probably would at least for the monster. The NPC probably not once again you shouldn't have been killing them.

Maybe if you gave an example?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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If the possibility exists that their "accidental" killing might result in them learning something which makes them better at would they do, I would, at the very least, consider awarding them xp. Maybe not full XP, but something appropriate. Unless they "accidentally" killed them by setting off a trap which they miraculously avoided but which crushed some bystanders, in which case xp goes to the trap :)


Natural 1, kill a pc. A missed shot, an accidental crit with a x3 weapon. Fighting in really cramped spaces, trying to use a double weapon on a tiny boat.

I've seen a few player incaps happen because of this, which is technically a defeat for the char put into the ground. I've given xp to players before that missed enemies and killed allies. They felt bad about it.

Just wanting to hear what you think.

Chaos, an accident leading to a loss of xp? An accident making their level progress slower? hmm.


Ssalarn wrote:
If the possibility exists that their "accidental" killing might result in them learning something which makes them better at would they do, I would, at the very least, consider awarding them xp. Maybe not full XP, but something appropriate. Unless they "accidentally" killed them by setting off a trap which they miraculously avoided but which crushed some bystanders, in which case xp goes to the trap :)

Somewhat my thoughts.

Trap levels up! Takes a level in sorcerer.


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I guess my perspective is you get xp for successfully overcoming encounters, obstacles, or situations. They aren't successful an accident in their favor helps them achieve their objective so its ok. As far as taking xp away i would only do that in an extreme case where they did something incredibly stupid that killed another PC (your envoker spams a fire ball in the middle of the party because it will hit the bad guys too).


Ha ha, I've heard a pc ask to be fireballed because the enemies engaging him were vulnerable to fire and he had evasion.


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XP should be handed out anytime a player completes a challenge. If the accidental killing was a challenge then yes. Otherwise, no.

Note: You do not need to kill a creature to overcome the challenge and thus earn XP. You get full XP anytime you overcome it even if that does not involve killing it.

- Gauss


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Free yourself from the chains of XP! XP is nothing but the lingering remnant of a bad idea, poorly executed which leads to ridiculous discussions like this one.

I level PCs up according to plot. They achieve a milestone which means their challenges will increase, they level up to keep the game balanced.

Grand Lodge

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Natural 1, kill a pc. A missed shot, an accidental crit with a x3 weapon. Fighting in really cramped spaces, trying to use a double weapon on a tiny boat.

I've seen a few player incaps happen because of this, which is technically a defeat for the char put into the ground. I've given xp to players before that missed enemies and killed allies. They felt bad about it.

Just wanting to hear what you think.

Chaos, an accident leading to a loss of xp? An accident making their level progress slower? hmm.

Considering that PF has no fumble rules...not sure how you kill another PC on a nat 1.

But if you kill a PC with an AoE spell, no, I do not give you EXP and you better damn well explain yourself before I SUBTRACT exp.

If you do it to a monster or NPC that is hostile or meant to be overcome, you get full EXP.

If you do it to an NPC that is neutral, I generally give you EXP.

If you do it to an NPC that is an ally...well you once again no EXP and you better explain yourself or lose EXP.

Shadow Lodge

Ssalarn wrote:
If the possibility exists that their "accidental" killing might result in them learning something which makes them better at would they do, I would, at the very least, consider awarding them xp. Maybe not full XP, but something appropriate. Unless they "accidentally" killed them by setting off a trap which they miraculously avoided but which crushed some bystanders, in which case xp goes to the trap :)

If a trap gets enough XP, does it graduate to a higher CR, along with a higher DC and more damage?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Free yourself from the chains of XP! XP is nothing but the lingering remnant of a bad idea, poorly executed which leads to ridiculous discussions like this one.

I level PCs up according to plot. They achieve a milestone which means their challenges will increase, they level up to keep the game balanced.

I do the same thing, and prefer the same thing as a player. It annoys me when PCs aren't same-level.


I'd level pcs up according to plot, but in dnd games not everyone faces and completes the same challenges or checks, and side-quests can easily come up, depending on how often they split up. When pcs are in towns, when one pc does more and accomplishes more with their roleplaying time, when one stealthy scout heads forward to actually scout the xp starts to sensibly diverge.

E.g. party is in town. 3 of 4 go shopping for the latest magic items, one goes to rob/lie/cheat the locals for coin and xp. Should they not get xp for doing more, impacting the world to a greater extent and taking some risks?

Now you can say, no, that char that did other things and beat some opponents solo should not diverge from the xp of the group, but they simply earned what they have. Not all have the same accomplishments unless they never leave each-others side.

XP is a good idea. Killing pcs for xp is now, but it can come up in accidents hence the topic.

Shadow Lodge

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Cold Napalm wrote:
Considering that PF has no fumble rules...not sure how you kill another PC on a nat 1.

I have a deck of cards that disagrees with your "no fumble rules" hypothesis. And whether a group had the cards or not, nat 1 fumbles are probably one of the more common house rules out there.


No meta-gaming AND readied actions can also lead to friendly fire.


Those cards are house rules not official rules. I have used them myself, but I won't delude myself and call them official rules. I am also sure cold napalm was speaking of official rules, since that is the default assumption.

On the original topic XP is only gained for overcoming a challenge. I have always read that as a challenge put forth by the GM so I can't think of a situation where this would get XP.


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In a 3.5 high-level evil vs evil campaign, the wizard was grappled and the warmage fired off an empowered ray at the creature grappling him. It was a confirmed crit, and the wizard was randomly determined to be hit (yay grapple rules). He was blasted from reasonably healthy to about -40 hp, and was only saved by an immediate action from my cleric (yay spell compendium).

But to answer your question, no. I would never reward a player XP for killing another player's character.


"Delude" you say?

They were put out by paizo as supplementary rules, and natural 1/accidents happen house rules are very common.

Almost two decades of gaming, seen them in every single group. A melee rushes in, an archer or ray using spellcaster rolls a 1, it is very common.

So, back on track, no xp for accidents wraith?

Shadow Lodge

I'd say they were OPTIONAL rules as opposed to HOUSE rules. The difference? The cards were made by Paizo, so they're pretty damned official. But they are OPTIONAL official rules.

Shadow Lodge

As for the question, I'd give full XP for a happy accident that killed an enemy. For accidents that kill a neutral party or an ally, between 0 to half XP. After all, they character might have learned a tragic lesson. (Check your targets, etc.)


Kthulhu wrote:
I'd say they were OPTIONAL rules as opposed to HOUSE rules. The difference? The cards were made by Paizo, so they're pretty damned official. But they are OPTIONAL official rules.

Pretty much this.

The cards and such are produced by Paizo themselves, meaning that the Cards themselves are easily compatible, as well as endorsed by the creators of Pathfinder.

The rules do not explicitly state creatures rolling 1's = fumbles, or rolling 20's = special critical options. However, when such rules are written up by the creators of the game the cards are meant for, it is to say that such a rule would not be considered a house rule, when it is a rule that can be put in play that is endorsed (and perhaps encouraged) by the creators of Pathfinder; with that said, it is an option to include them, and an option not to. There is no house ruling, when there is no deviating from the RAW and differentiating publication of the cards.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

"Delude" you say?

They were put out by paizo as supplementary rules, and natural 1/accidents happen house rules are very common.

Almost two decades of gaming, seen them in every single group. A melee rushes in, an archer or ray using spellcaster rolls a 1, it is very common.

So, back on track, no xp for accidents wraith?

Ok, they are "optional" rules. My point still stands. Optional rules are just that. Just like traits, the hero point system, and the power word system. The rules that can't reasonably assume will be in play were the ones he was referring to.

Is my point clear now?


This isn't about optional rules though, but what xp you give for accidents.


I know that. The sidetrack came up because another poster's post was misunderstood.

Back on topic I don't thank a blanket ruling on accidents is a good idea. It should depend on the situation.


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Oh man, I just shot Marvin in the face...


Another question, do you award xp for player duels (to the death or otherwise) or training bouts amongst players?

Sovereign Court

We don't use XP currently in our games. If I was in a game and someone was awarded xp for accidentally killing an ally I probably wouldn't return to that game. We dont use fumbles in our games either. When we did you didn't hit allies either it was solely on the fumbler.

I wouldnt award xp for duels one way or another. In one case it promotes killing to earn xp (which is why we did away with xp) on the other hand my players would just duel each other all day long to gain levels :(


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Another question, do you award xp for player duels (to the death or otherwise) or training bouts amongst players?

I don't. If they are just training it is just RP. If they fight for real that is up to them, but they only get XP for things that advance the story, and that normally means obstacles the GM puts in front of them.

Silver Crusade

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0 xp here for accidentally slain allies and non-combatants. "Happy accidents" on the other hand, where hostile enemies are overcome through sheer dumb luck....well, I always did have a soft spot for the Fool archetype. :D

J-Gal wrote:
Oh man, I just shot Marvin in the face...

See, if he gained XP from that he might have made that critical Perception check later down the line.

Then again he did dump Wisdom right into the ground...


Mikaze wrote:

See, if he gained XP from that he might have made that critical Perception check later down the line.

Then again he did dump Wisdom right into the ground...

I don't know about that, he did pretty well on that heal check on Mia.

Grand Lodge

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Oh, I so do not miss XP.

Similar to others, both groups I am in use event based leveling.

This means no XP farming, and everyone works together to progress the story, as it improves their characters.


I use 'hidden XP' in my games. I keep track but then tell my players they have leveled where I feel it is appropriate.

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

With the removal of XP required for Crafting and Spells, removing it completely is quite easy to do.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:


If a pc accidentally kills another pc, do you give them xp?

If a pc accidentally kills a monster or npc, do you give them xp?

I don't give xp for just killing stuff ever. I give xp for resolving the encounter successfully. If that means killing something is the solution, so be it. But if not and they just accidentally kill something, oh well.


J-Gal wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

See, if he gained XP from that he might have made that critical Perception check later down the line.

Then again he did dump Wisdom right into the ground...

I don't know about that, he did pretty well on that heal check on Mia.

He had a masterwork tool, an aid-another bonus, and a stabilize check is only a DC 15. :P


No, on both accounts.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:


If a pc accidentally kills another pc, do you give them xp?

If a pc accidentally kills a monster or npc, do you give them xp?


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If a pc accidentally kills another pc, do you give them xp?

No, PCs never get xp for killing other PCs in any game I run; I can't force the PCs to not kill each other, but I sure as hell am not going to incentivize it.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If a pc accidentally kills a monster or npc, do you give them xp?

Sure! We learn best from our mistakes, after all. :)

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Another question, do you award xp for player duels (to the death or otherwise) or training bouts amongst players?

No, other than possibly some roleplaying xp if they roleplay it out for a while. No different than any other possibility for roleplaying xp.

Sparring and such should be assumed part of their training done "in the background." I was in a group, which had days go by in game at the same rate as real life time, and allowed characters to spend the week sparring with each other to gain xp. It was pretty unbalanced, definitely wouldn't institute such a thing in any of my games.


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Cold Napalm wrote:

But if you kill a PC with an AoE spell, no, I do not give you EXP and you better damn well explain yourself before I SUBTRACT exp.

If you do it to an NPC that is an ally...well you once again no EXP and you better explain yourself or lose EXP.

I would not want to play with you. The ramifications of actions should occur in the game not in the meta-game. Did that character somehow get less experienced because they accidentally killed someone the DM considers an ally? Of course not.


I will not give EXP nor will I take any if a player character kills another.

No, I don't care how you do it or why. Though depending on those factors, I might ask you to leave the table.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:


If a pc accidentally kills another pc, do you give them xp?

If a pc accidentally kills a monster or npc, do you give them xp?

I award XP when the players take action to forward the plot. If accidentally killing a monster pushes the plot onwards (discovering something on the corpse) or killing a PC leads them to uncover something else then yes, they get XP.

Experience is from accomplishment. To award it for anything else dillutes the system and lessens the impact players feel when they achieve the next level.

That's how I see XP anyways. It's one of the reasons I don't like the "level when I feel like it" systems. I understand why others prefer it, but to me XP is a reward for achieving something. It's a way to mark your accomplishments.


I think one of the players accidentally killed another in one of the campaigns I was in, but nobody asked if they'd get EXP from the kill. Also, I asked my Kingmaker crew if they'd want EXP or "DM gives level when appropriate" and they went for the former, to my surprise.


Some love the sweet trickle of xp into their experience box. Mmmmmm erotic.

I give xp for pvp, killing off another player is an accomplishment and a test. There are plenty of factors pushing against this though, so it doesn't happen much or go to the death very often.

One knight char of mine in a pathfinder game got into a duel against a spellcaster (he had kept hitting him with spells and got great sadistic joy from that). I got a small amount of xp for the win with no death for the loser (should have, really should have). Course this opened a giant can of worms, as the beaten player manipulated the dm post-game. Next game, in came the thou shalt nots, limiting our actions quite a lot. It was sad to see a dm the code of limitations.

I've given some xp for player vs player duels. It is a risk of face or a risk of limb (duelling without being no holds barred). Winner gets a tad more xp than the loser, we have a few checks for the training session. It is similar to if a player uses down time for a lot of training and exercise, you can get xp that way, but it won't be very much.

Since I run more sandbox games and less giant plots, kills, rp, training, discoveries, great deeds, they all give the pcs xp. :)


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When I DM I award the PCs experience for overcoming challenges, not killing things. Characters are not walking bags of XP.

I probably would not award XP for killing a PC accidentally or otherwise. It encourages a type of behavior I do not enjoy.

If the challenge was to defeat a NPC and the PC wanted to take them hostage, they would still get XP. If the challenge was strictly to take the NPC alive and they killed the NPC instead, they might get no XP, or partial XP if the NPC put up a fight.


Icyshadow wrote:
I think one of the players accidentally killed another in one of the campaigns I was in, but nobody asked if they'd get EXP from the kill. Also, I asked my Kingmaker crew if they'd want EXP or "DM gives level when appropriate" and they went for the former, to my surprise.

Won't someone think of the xp! Ahhh, all that xp remained unrewarded.

Kingmaker has some options for splitting off and doing your own thing, managing some of the settlements affairs, so individual xp can chart who is accomplishing and who isn't. It can get competitive, I don't find competition a bad thing, or the rightly deserving pulling ahead in xp and levels. Meritocrat here.


King Cobra wrote:

When I DM I award the PCs experience for overcoming challenges, not killing things. Characters are not walking bags of XP.

I probably would not award XP for killing a PC accidentally or otherwise. It encourages a type of behavior I do not enjoy.

If the challenge was to defeat a NPC and the PC wanted to take them hostage, they would still get XP. If the challenge was strictly to take the NPC alive and they killed the NPC instead, they might get no XP, or partial XP if the NPC put up a fight.

Yep, defeat doesn't mean kill.

That knight char I mentioned took a lot of opponents hostage. Even Drow.

We had a party battle cry in undercommon "we accept surrender!"

Grand Lodge

pinkycatcher wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

But if you kill a PC with an AoE spell, no, I do not give you EXP and you better damn well explain yourself before I SUBTRACT exp.

If you do it to an NPC that is an ally...well you once again no EXP and you better explain yourself or lose EXP.

I would not want to play with you. The ramifications of actions should occur in the game not in the meta-game. Did that character somehow get less experienced because they accidentally killed someone the DM considers an ally? Of course not.

Umm...I am not talking about an NPC that COULD be an ally...that is neutral. I am talking about one that IS one already. One helping the party along in their goals.

As for using the in game world ramification...well I could do that...but my general rule is I don't play with jerks. Killing of PC or ally NPC is being a jerk usually...so you can explain to me WHY you did it or I will give you a meta reason to not be a jerk next time. You continue to do it anyways and you can leave the table.


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Killing an ally is an alignment or social issue, not an XP issue. There has never been XP losses for things like that, there should not be.

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

Gauss wrote:

Killing an ally is an alignment or social issue, not an XP issue. There has never been XP losses for things like that, there should not be.

- Gauss

I do accept my character is CE as a reason...assuming I let you play that alignment. Otherwise I want a reason. Even LE or NE characters don't randomly kill people who are HELPING them out. If you can't give me a reason, your being a jerk...and remember I don't play with jerks. The XP penalty is just a warning...and you even get a few chances. Somebody being a jerk is a meta issue and needs to be dealt with in a meta fashion.


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I do not agree Cold Napalm. Killing someone is usually a character issue.

Even if a LE person kills someone for a random reason the solution is to nudge that LE's alignment towards CE. Inform the player of this.

Other solutions:
Having him be a wanted criminal for murder is a decent warning. Having him hunted down, go to prison, and get hanged or beheaded is a good way to end the problem. All in character solutions.

On the other hand it COULD be a player issue if the player repeatedly does this. In that case I would suggest the player work on the problem. If the player refuses to work on the problem then stop playing with that player.

It should never been an XP issue.

- Gauss


It is very reasonable for an honour bound character (such as a knight or pally) to kill the dishonourable/cowardly/thieves or betrayers in duels. The basic books for a while have made mention of classes that don't get along with others.

It has come up a bit for monks actually, you know, testing the style, fighting to prove who is the mastaaa. Another very short "bout" came up when a spellcaster mocked the ninja and monk, stating they were far weaker than he, and it was a far bigger deal if his spells missed compared to their punches or strikes. Monk clocked him later on a few occasions for significant effect.

Another one, new monk kicks awake the drunken master monk, who has been out fighting monsters for months. Monk replies with 20 damage, thinking it was a foe. Lolz.

As a dm I don't see it as my place to say what they can and cannot do. I've had some bad experiences with railroad gms. If they want to fight they fight, if they want to run they run, if they kill someone by accident, it happens and we tally up the cost.

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