The Amulet of Mighty Fists is an item that fails in it's purpose.
The bonus is too expensive by WBL, caps at half what other weapons go to, and takes up a slot.
If someone would like to explain what horrible outcome would arise from monks being able to enchant unarmed attacks, I would be all ears. The math seems to show they would still be well behind the martial classes for damage.
I suspect it would only just catch them up with the other 3/4 BaB classes, and still keep them behind the rogue.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
The issue is this item demonstrates that the Devs seem to be afraid to allow unarmed attack bonus by monks to be reasonable relative to other weapons.
I have no idea why.
While enchanting the monks unarmed attacks isn't a bad solution, it is a problematic one. Due to the mechanics of flurry, for it to be a balanced option, you'd probably need to pay double, which is what a TWF character has to do. You could make it cheaper, but I don't see doing it at under 150% the cost of enchanting one weapon. But at that point you still end up invalidating an AoMF, and that is something the devs don't want to do.
I honestly think replacing ki strike with an ability similar to the enhancement bonus a magus gets from his arcane pool is a good way to go. It isn't the only thing they need, but its a start.
Oh, I said I'd post it up, so here is a link to the thread I made in the homebrew forum with my revised monk.
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I would not like to see monks become SAD, but it would be nice to reduce MAD to a reasonable level equivelant to that of other MAD classes. Wisdom bonus to hit with monk weapons would be one way to do that. Then you can hinge the class on wisdom, and while you still need strength for damage and dexterity for AC, you don't need to worry about ramping them through the roof just to function. You are at the ranger level of one good and two moderate scores.
Except this really don't solve MAD at all. It doesn't make you "closer to a Ranger."
You need a high Str to overcome DR, regardless of where your +hit is coming from.You need a high Dex to make up for your lack of wearing armor.
You need a high Wis for the 2nd half of your armor and for your Monk abilities.
No matter which one of these three stats is used for +hit, you still need just as much of them as before. Otherwise, Weapon Finesse Monks would be fine (except we know they're not).
The only way it fixes MAD is to add Wisdom to attack and damage. Now it'll stack with your moderate str for enough to bump over that DR that would otherwise be giving you trouble.
But no one is comfortable suggesting it because, I assume, of the perceived notion that "it's just too much." (And the threat of dipping isn't an issue because any non-Monk Wis class is losing a level of spellcasting for it. That's significant.)
[Edit - In fact, the typical idea is to have a Ki-based DR work-around. That would be going too far, because that actually would be unfair to the other classes who have to have said special material. If they lose said special material, they can't contribute anymore, while the Monk is set-for-life against anything, regardless of what he wields. (Paladins, as usual, being the exception.)]
They don't have those abilities in a single build.
I agree. I merely point out that they have them on paper and the pitfalls are generally only discovered once you are playing a monk.
They don't need "killer" offense. They need 3/4 BaB offense.
I agree also, where said offence is that of a bard singing, a magus with his enhanced weapon, a rogue sneak-attacking.
They are still a d8 class that has at least two other abilities more important than Con.
I agree also.
Schrodinger's Monk can do all things. Show me how it would break things to add this feature to any potential monk build, and I'll step back and say I am wrong.
I'm not saying you are wrong. I am saying how it looks to someone who has not played a monk in a serious game with experienced players.
Except this really don't solve MAD at all. It doesn't make you "closer to a Ranger."
You need a high Str to overcome DR, regardless of where your +hit is coming from.
You need a high Dex to make up for your lack of wearing armor.
You need a high Wis for the 2nd half of your armor and for your Monk abilities.No matter which one of these three stats is used for +hit, you still need just as much of them as before. Otherwise, Weapon Finesse Monks would be fine (except we know they're not)
Not the same. Let me explain how it works:
Take a ranger with 18 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Wis. This is good for the ranger, 14 Wis is all he needs for all his spells; 16 Dex is above what he needs but is handy for those extra TWF feats with a little boosting. 18 Str is what he needs for hitting and damage.
Now take a monk. To match the ranger he needs to get his wisdom higher to make up for lack of armour, so he needs 16-18 Wisdom, rather than 14. To keep matching AC he needs that dexterity too. He still needs the 18 Str to hit and damage, he can't drop it or he loses out on hitting (damage isn't so bad, he has rising damage dice). So something has to give because he doesn't have the points, and it's probably dexterity so his AC sucks. Or he could go Finesse and drop strength - only then he is losing +1 to hit, a feat, and his damage output is lower. He could lose MORE strength to get the hitting up, but then the damage REALLY sucks.
Now assume he gets Wisdom to hit. All of a sudden that Wisdom score can be 18 and pay for itself by delivering hits as well as AC. This is slightly better than it needs to be, so a little drop in dexterity can be coped with, say to 14. That leaves 16 for strength, and ponly be -1 to damage behind the ranger. As his damage dice will increment, this is not so bad at all, all other things being equal they will be square by 4th level.
Alternatively, he could go defensive and put the 16 in dexterity and 14 in strength. Now he waits until 8th level before he matches the ranger offensively in damage, but his to hit is the same (in fact it may be better, because he can increase Wisdom to the exclusion of everything else) and he has much better AC. He is still MAD, but he just a little bit less MAD. He has gone from a Three High Score MADness to a One High Score + Two Moderates MADness.
Now bear in mind, this Wisdom-to-hit option is included as a package in which the monk gets a to-hit enhancement bonus from ki-strike and a bypass-DR option in ki-pool, so these factors are not included. Monk no longer needs high strength to bypass DR, nor to deliver a strong to hit bonus.
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Dabbler is not disagreeing with you ciretose.Because monks have on paper a great many abilities, and defensively oriented monk can have a killer AC. They don't want to make a class which has killer offence and killer defence. Other than the paladin, that is.
I can understand this, but it's misplaced. There's a difference between improving an underpowered class to make it viable and overpowering a class. I don't think ANY version of the monk with any set of feats, powers, or whatever, can be said to be overpowered. Most, if they manage to be good at one thing, manage to suck at several others.
They don't have those abilities in a single build.
They don't need "killer" offense. They need 3/4 BaB offense.
They are still a d8 class that has at least two other abilities more important than Con.
Schrodinger's Monk can do all things. Show me how it would break things to add this feature to any potential monk build, and I'll step back and say I am wrong.
I know, I'm cutting off the counter-argument at the pass.
Until I see a monk build that incorporates them being able to add enhancement bonuses to unarmed strike at the same cost as TWF that is a problem, I am calling BS on the whole logic that doing this would be a problem.
Letting the monks body become masterwork at 3rd level, and therefore subject to enhancement, and having each enhancement only apply to half of the body fits the fluff and fixes all of the issues I see with the class.
Show me a build that uses this that is overpowered relative to other classes.
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While enchanting the monks unarmed attacks isn't a bad solution, it is a problematic one. Due to the mechanics of flurry, for it to be a balanced option, you'd probably need to pay double, which is what a TWF character has to do.
I have consistently said they would need to pay the same as a TWF. My issue is that they have to pay significantly more with the amulet for less.
AoMF +1 costs 5,000 and a slot.
Two +1 weapons are 4,000 + the cost of the masterwork weapons.
AoMF +2 costs 20,000 and a slot
Two +2 weapons are 16,000 + the cost of the masterwork weapon.
A unarmed monk can't even afford AoMF by WBL until 5th level, at which point it costs just under 1/2 of their WBL. They don't even have an option for "masterwork".
It should be the same cost as TWF, not significantly more.
[sarcasm]But what about the super-corner-case argument where your Monk might be in a place where the players aren't allowed to have weapons! That's worth half-again amirite?? (Gauntlets do not exist in regards to this argument, so don't even bother bringing them up as a non-offensive, undisarmable option for other classes. Also, you can't hide anything on your person in this argument. At all.)[/sarcasm]
Stuff
So a Monk with 18 Wis and 14-16 Dex has a comparable AC (not great, just comparable, and it took WAY more hard investment) but his damage from Str is going to be either +2 or +3.
Levels 8-11 sees a Monk dealing 1d10 Unarmed.
Levels 12-15 sees this increase to 2d6.
The "Str-heavy" Monk in what is typically the final levels of his career is doing 10 damage on average. He/she is not breaking DR 10/x very often. (This being the Monk that sacrificed some AC for more Str, just to remind.)
And in regards to alternate means to bypass DR...
Now bear in mind, this Wisdom-to-hit option is included as a package in which the monk gets a to-hit enhancement bonus from ki-strike and a bypass-DR option in ki-pool, so these factors are not included. Monk no longer needs high strength to bypass DR, nor to deliver a strong to hit bonus.
Emphasis mine. I touched on this already. It'll never happen. The Devs throw around "overpowered" a lot in regards to potential Monk options, and a lot of times they are simply wrong, but this wouldn't be one of those times. How many people already complain that Paladins get to just ignore DR with Smite? (A lot.)
Even IF they decided to go this route, I can easily see it being something like "2 ki points for 1 round of bypassing," which would tank your Ki pool.|
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I just want to someone to show me the math of this creating an overpowered monk. I think it is a myth.
The Inquisitor gets Judgements and Bane on top of 6 levels of spells and no one is saying they are broken.
Rogues are often also considered underpowered, and they get to add 1d6 x 1/2 there level on sneak attacks along with rogue talents every other level in addition to the 8 skill points per level.
Someone show me how this would do anything but bring them up to par with other classes on the whole.
Post a broken build with this add on feature, relative to another class.
I just want to someone to show me the math of this creating an overpowered monk. I think it is a myth.
The Inquisitor gets Judgements and Bane on top of 6 levels of spells and no one is saying they are broken.
Rogues are often also considered underpowered, and they get to add 1d6 x 1/2 there level on sneak attacks along with rogue talents every other level in addition to the 8 skill points per level.
Someone show me how this would do anything but bring them up to par with other classes on the whole.
Post a broken build with this add on feature, relative to another class.
They can't. If they could, they would have by now.
Forum goers won't because they don't want to try and look bad when they're wrong.Devs will never admit it because they've already made their argument and no company professional anywhere will ever admit they were wrong to a company forum. It would be (at least the beginning of) career suicide.
Take solace in knowing you're absolutely right, and homebrew the changes for your own games.
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The Devs have said they know a problem exists. This item caused an uproar because it made it clear what they think is the problem is not what we think is the problem, as this item made the issue harder to correct.
I defended the monk on first release, then they nerfed a few things, then they added brass knuckles an I defended them again, then they nerfed those (appropriately for flavor) and never replaced them.
I would honestly like to know what they see that I don't. They are reasonable people, if there is a reasonable concern I would like to know.
But I don't see it. At all.
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While enchanting the monks unarmed attacks isn't a bad solution, it is a problematic one. Due to the mechanics of flurry, for it to be a balanced option, you'd probably need to pay double, which is what a TWF character has to do.
I have consistently said they would need to pay the same as a TWF. My issue is that they have to pay significantly more with the amulet for less.
AoMF +1 costs 5,000 and a slot.
Two +1 weapons are 4,000 + the cost of the masterwork weapons.
AoMF +2 costs 20,000 and a slot
Two +2 weapons are 16,000 + the cost of the masterwork weapon.
A unarmed monk can't even afford AoMF by WBL until 5th level, at which point it costs just under 1/2 of their WBL. They don't even have an option for "masterwork".
It should be the same cost as TWF, not significantly more.
I didn't see a part where you said that before I posted so I figured I'd bring it up.
I don't really think the whole enchant themselves fits in flavor wise with the monk (here, wizard, enchant meh!!!!), it feels like a solution that comes straight from the rules without regard to fluff/background/etc.
That being said, it is a solution. As far pure mechanics go, the only issue I could see is that what stops a monk from enchanting themselves and then using an AOMF or Bodywrap? Yes, WBL will restrict that some, but not all games go strictly by WBL, and if the ability gets worded as the monk enchanting himself, it becomes a very real possibility(as items a PC makes that PC gets at half cost.)
Oh, and as to making Wisdom the to hit stat for monks...that is pretty much turning them into a SAD class. A high Wisdom becomes a requirement, and then a decent Dexterity and Strength and they are good to go. They could get by with a 14 in Strength and Dexterity at that point, especially in lower point games, and even higher point games. Maybe lower. But their Stunning Fist, Ki pool, to hit, would be steadily going up, and with the ability to throw out a huge number of attacks, the lower Strength becomes less of an issue(excepting DR, but not everything has DR and they can bypass some DR, and lots of us have mentioned ways to boost that to usable levels)
Well, let's take a look at the levels that the various options have enhancement bonuses available:
For this thought exercise we will presume tha balanced approach of Wealth-by-Level (WBL) is used and that no more than 25% of an individual's wealth may be spent on weapons (page 402, Core Reference Document).
Starting out, we have a character with a single magic weapon:
5th: +1 (2,000 gp vs. 10,500 gp; 19.4%)
8th: +2 (8,000 gp vs. 33,000 gp; 24.24%)
11th: +3 (18,000 gp vs. 82,000 gp; 21.95%)
13th: +4 (32,000 gp vs. 140,000 gp; 22.85%)
15th: +5 (50,000 gp vs. 240,000 gp; 20.83%)
16th: +6 (72,000 gp vs. 315,000 gp; 22.85%)
17th: +7 (98,000 gp vs. 410,000 gp; 23.90%)
18th: +8 (128,000 gp vs 530,000 gp; 24.15%)
19th: +9 (162,000 gp vs 685,000 gp; 23.64%)
20th: +10 (200,000 gp vs. 880,000 gp; 22.72%)
Going strictly by the guidelines, this character gets his first magic weapon around 5th level, then the bonuses start to increase at every three levels, dropping to every two levels, and from 15th level on, every level. Until he reaches a +10 weapon.
How does that compare with a character who wields two weapons? Showing here:
6th: +1 (4,000 gp vs. 16,000 WBL; 25%)
11th: +2 (16,000 gp vs. 82,000 WBL; 19.51%)
14th: +3 (36,000 gp vs. 185,000 WBL; 19.45%)
16th: +4 (64,000 gp vs. 315,000 WBL; 20.31%)
17th: +5 (100,000 gp vs. 410,000 WBL; 24.39%)
19th: +6 (144,000 gp vs. 685,000 WBL; 21.02%)
20th: +7 (196,000 gp vs. 880,000 WBL; 22.72%)
That does make a difference. We knew this fellows progression would be slower, but I wasn't expecting quite THIS slow. You can get two +1 weapons at 6th level, your +2 at 11th (when the single weapon character is getting a +3), your + 3 at 14th (vs. +4), and so on. You wind up being able to afford two +7 weapons at 20th level, compared to a single +10 weapon, and you don't get the full DR bypassing of a magic weapon until 17th level (vs. 15th for a single weapon character).
How about the Amulet of Mighty Fists? Let's see:
7th: +1 (5,000 gp vs. 23,500 WBL; 21.27%)
11th: +2 (20,000 gp vs. 82,000 WBL; 24.39%)
14th: +3 (45,000 gp vs. 185,000 WBL; 24.32%)
17th: +4 (80,000 gp vs. 410,000 WBL; 19.51%)
18th: +5 (125,000 gp vs. 530,000 WBL; 23.58%)
It is 7th level before you can afford that first +1 (vs. 6th for TWF or 5th for a single weapon). You get +2 at 11th and +3 at 14th (the same levels as the TWF). But your +4 is slowed to 17th level (vs. 13th and 16th for single/TWF respectively) and you don't get your +5 until 18th level (vs. 15th and 17th for single/TWF respectively). Even if the AoMF lets you bypass DR based on enhancement, you are getting it late: 14th level for cold iron and silver, 17th level for adamantine, 18th level for alignment-based DR.
What about the Magus and the Paladin, you ask? Good question. The Paladin (with the weapon divine bond) gets a free +1 at 5th level (on par with a single weapon character) that increases to +2 at 8th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 14th, +5 at 17th, and +6 at 20th. The paladin may use this ability 1/day at 5th level, 2/day at 9th, 3/day at 13th, and 4/day at 17th, and each use lasts for 1 minute per paladin level (!!).
The magus, on the other hand, gets a +1 bonus at FIRST level, which lasts for 1 minute. Unlike the paladin, the magus has spend his arcane pool points on this ability (but it is a swift action to do so). The enhancement bonus of arcane pool increases to +2 at 5th level, + 3 at 9th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 17th level.
Just putting this out there so that people can compare and figure out what may be a good path to granting the monk some sort of ki-enhancement bonus, or even being able to pay to enchant his unarmed strike.
MA
The Magus and Paladin can be disarmed, so can any single/TWF. Even if locked gauntlets are used (try to don two locked gauntlets by yourself) they can be sundered, broken, and the character summarily disarmed.
How do you disarm a monk that has enchanted his body parts?
Balancing their "weapon" enhancement options against every other TWF doesn't appear to be so simple.
The Magus and Paladin can be disarmed, so can any single/TWF. Even if locked gauntlets are used (try to don two locked gauntlets by yourself) they can be sundered, broken, and the character summarily disarmed.
How often does this happen? I have yet to see it. Given that the classes relying on weapons have extra abilities that boost their damage and hitting outputs further (weapon training, rage, smite, favoured enemy) isn't that a fair exchange?
StuffSo a Monk with 18 Wis and 14-16 Dex has a comparable AC (not great, just comparable, and it took WAY more hard investment) but his damage from Str is going to be either +2 or +3.
Levels 8-11 sees a Monk dealing 1d10 Unarmed.
Levels 12-15 sees this increase to 2d6.
The "Str-heavy" Monk in what is typically the final levels of his career is doing 10 damage on average. He/she is not breaking DR 10/x very often. (This being the Monk that sacrificed some AC for more Str, just to remind.)
Well, that's about where the ranger not hitting his favoured enemy is going to be, too, if you think about it. I do take your point though. That's why I pointed out the whole package.
And in regards to alternate means to bypass DR...
Now bear in mind, this Wisdom-to-hit option is included as a package in which the monk gets a to-hit enhancement bonus from ki-strike and a bypass-DR option in ki-pool, so these factors are not included. Monk no longer needs high strength to bypass DR, nor to deliver a strong to hit bonus.Emphasis mine. I touched on this already. It'll never happen. The Devs throw around "overpowered" a lot in regards to potential Monk options, and a lot of times they are simply wrong, but this wouldn't be one of those times. How many people already complain that Paladins get to just ignore DR with Smite? (A lot.)
The paladin has limited smites per day, and those smites dish enough damage to over-top DR anyway. That said, given the kind of DR the things they can smite is likely to be, it makes a lot of sense. Then again, the fact the paladin can do this and the fact that they have arguably better defences than the monk actually undermines the argument that this is overpowered on the monk.
OH, and the magus can bypass DR too, by the back door: he can take his arcane pool and boost the bonus on his weapon, so he can have a weapon with an effective +5 bonus on it at a much earlier level than anyone else.
Now consider that the wis-to-hit takes the emphasis away from the strength based monk (it doesn't prevent one, but he'll pay in AC for it) then it's not exactly broken to let the multiple low-damage attacks concept actually work successfully.
Even IF they decided to go this route, I can easily see it being something like "2 ki points for 1 round of bypassing," which would tank your Ki pool.
It would, so I hope they pay attention and either boost the ki-pool or allow the DR bypass to be per minute, not per round. There is a reason we pump up the math and prove our points mechanically and not just bounce around ideas in these threads.
Let’s look at that monk with maxed out defenses. For this exercise, we will use human as the race and a 25-point buy.
The base ability score array is: Str 11 (1 pt), Dex 17 (13 pts), Con 12 (2 pts), Int 7 (-4 pts), Wis 18 (17 pts), and Cha 7 (-4 pts). We put the +2 floating bonus for human in Wis, for a final array of Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 20, and Cha 7.
Starting out, that is an AC of 18 (flat-footed 15, touch 18). But, the attack bonus is +0 for 1d6 (20/x2), but we spend a feat for Weapon Focus (unarmed), total of +1. Flurry is +0/+0 for 1d6 (20/x2). Saves are Fort +3, Ref +5, and Will +7. However, he has 3 skill ranks, which we will put in Acrobatics (+7), Perception (+9), and Stealth (+7). And we really need to put the favored class bonus in hit points: total is 10.
At 4th level, he gains a +1 increase in one attribute of choice. We put that in Dex, giving an array of Str 11, Dex 18 (20), Con 12, Int 7, Wis 20, and Cha 7. Equipment is a ring of protection +1 and belt of dexterity +2. AC is 22 (flat-footed 17, touch 22). Luckily, we now have Weapon Finesse. Attacks are +8 (1d8, x2) with a flurry of +7/+7 (1d8, x2). Saves are Fort +5, Ref +9, and Will +9. Skills are Acrobatics (+12), Perception (+12), and Stealth (+12). Hit points are 36.
8th level, the monk boosts another Stat. Dex again for an array of Str 11, Dex 19 (21), Con 12, Int 7, Wis 20 (22), and Cha 7. AC is 28 (flat-footed 23, touch 25). Our equipment consists of a ring of protection +2, an amulet of mighty fists +1, bracers of armor +3, belt of dexterity +2, headband of inspired wisdom +2, and a handy haversack, with 1,000 gp left over. Our attacks are +13/+7 for 1d10+1 (20/x2) with a flurry of +13/+13/+7/+7 for 1d10+1 (20/x2). Saves are Fort +8, Ref +11, and Will +12. Our skills are now Acrobatics (+16), Perception (+17), and Stealth (+16). Hit points are 62.
By 12th level, top of Society play, he once again increases Dex for an array of Str 11, Dex 20 (24), Con 12, Int 7, Wis 20 (24), and Cha 7. Equipment is a ring of protection +3, an amulet of mighty fists +2, bracers of armor +6, belt of dexterity +4, headband of wisdom +4, and a handy haversack, with 2,000 gp left over. AC is 36 (flat-footed 29, touch 30). Our attacks are +19/+4 for 2d6+2 (20/x2) with a flurry of +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 for 2d6+2 (20/x2). Saves are Fort +9, Ref +15, and Will +15. Our skills are now Acrobatics (+22), Perception (+22), and Stealth (+22). Hit points are 88.
That is absolutely concentrated on defense, to the detriment of offense and utility. It includes only Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus as feats. Sure, a 36 AC is high (so is a 30 touch AC), but by this level a pure Strength martial character can have a +24 to hit (higher with weapons training, smiting, favored enemy, rage, etc.). Base +12, +3 enhancement, +8 Strength, +1 feat.
Our monks attack rolls aren’t too bad (5 points behind a plain-jane martial using no specials) until you consider that our special ability turns us from a medium BAB class to a pseudo-high BAB class. But our damage is down-right awful. We are dealing 2d6+2 damage with a critical threat of 20 and a multiplier of times two. Those same characters wielding a greatsword will deal 2d6+15, minimum with a threat range of 19-20 and a multiplier of times two. (+3 enhancement, +8 Strength, and +4 half-Strength for two-hand use.) That is before any special class abilities or fighter only feats.
AND, those martial characters can still hit this monk on a d20 roll of 12 or higher. Four hits and average damage (without a single critical) puts our monk at 0 hit points. Without using their class abilities.
No, even the high AC monk isn’t such a great deal when you look at what all your are sacrificing to get it . . . and your own companions can still hit you at least 40% of every time they swing.
Or as Ackbar says, "It's a trap!"
MA
Ok, here is my issue with Wisdom to hit for monks, complete with stats!!!
Using a 20 point buy (PFS standard) with PFS legal options, at various levels. Only statting up the bare minimum needed, so as to leave some flexibility for build tastes etc, and to help prove why its an issue doing Wis to hit. So yes, to be clear, all of the to hit stats are factored using Wisdom not str or dex.
At level one:
Human Monk
Str 13 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 19 Cha 7 Racial +2 went to Wisdom
Feats: Dodge, Crane Style, 1 Free
AC is 17 (not great, not horrid)
+4 to hit non flurry, or +3/+3 during a flurry, for 1d6+1 per hit.
No, not an offensive juggernaut, but not a wimp either.
Now lets look at it 4 levels down the line:
Human Monk
Str 13 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 20 Cha 7 Level up bonus to Wis
Feats: Dodge, Crane Style, Weapon Focus (Unarmed) (One monk bonus feat open[from level 2], one general feat open[from level 1])
Magic Items of Note: Bracers of Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance +1, 4000gp left over
AC is 20
+9 to hit non flurry, +8/+8 to hit during a flurry, for 1d8+1 per hit
again, not an offensive juggernaut, but not a total wimp. By the WBL guidelines, at this level no one has a magic weapon anyway except by GM kindness, as a +1 weapon is 2300+, which is over 25% of WBL (6k).
Now, at level 8
Human Monk
Str 13 Dex 14(16) Con 13 Int 10 Wis 21(23) Cha 7 Level up bonus went to Wis
Feats: Dodge, Crane Style, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Crane Wing, Power Attack (Two monk bonus feats from level 2 and 6 open, one general feat slot open from level 1)
Magic Items of Note: Belt of Incredible Dex +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Bracers of Armor +2, Cloak of Protection +2, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, 10k gp left over
AC is 25
+14/+9 to hit non flurry, or +14/+14/+9/+9 to hit flurry for 1d10+2
or
+12/+7 to hit non flurry power attack for 1d10+6
or
+11/+11/+9/+9 to hit flurry w/ power attack for 1d10+8
Now, at level 12
Human Monk
Str 13 Dex 14(18) Con 13 Int 10 Wis 22(26) Cha 7 Level up bonus to Wis
Feats: Dodge, Crane Style, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Crane Wing, Power Attack, Medusa's Wrath, Crane Riposte (Two monk bonus feats from level 2 and 6 open, two general feats, one from level 1, one from level 11 open)
Magic Items of Note: Belt of Incredible Dex +4, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4, Bracers of Armor +4, Cloak of Protection +4, Ring of Protection +3, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, 8k left over
AC is 33
+20/+15 to hit non flurry, or +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 to hit flurry for 2d6+3
or
+17/+12 to hit hit non flurry power attack for 2d6+9
or
+17/+17/+12/+12/+6 to hit flurry w/ power attack for 2d6+11
Now, none of this is optimized, its just off the top of my head with some quick book fact checking for costs, but it does illustrate the point. It keeps his to hit up, yes, but it also boosts his ki pool, AC, and Stunning Fist DC. And this is before factoring in anything like adding a static enhancement bonus or anything of that nature.
So no, I don't think making Wisdom the to hit stat for monks is the solution. It turns them into a more SAD class than they should be (my opinion, your mileage may vary) and makes any help in the DR penetration DPR issues harder to fix, not easier.
Like I said, its just me, and this is just an off the cuff sorta building, I'm pretty sure optimized it could get worse.
I'm trying to figure out where this monk is 'broken' and I can't see it. Perhaps because you haven't actually posted up anything to compare it against, so you are just waving stats and saying it's too good without bothering to prove it.
Put it this way, the stats for your monk are actually very close to my monk I have just played in a game, and the only difference is that my monk had to spend two feats for Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, and never bothered with Power Attack (frankly I wouldn't with this build either, you lose too much to hit for it to be worth it to fight anything but mooks). Gear is slightly better, which accounts for the AC being slightly better than my monk managed. In my case the party paladin was always ahead of me on AC, saves, to hit and damage. The party magus was slightly behind me on saves and AC, but ahead on hitting and way ahead on damage one you factored in spell combat.
So actually, no, I don't think this can be considered bad in any way. It's basically slightly behind par for the course at that level with those stats for any class, and that's OK because the monk has good defences.
Take those stats, put the 19 into strength and run it and the damage is better for a full BAB class. Add plate armour above 1st level and the AC is as good if not better. The full BAB class still rules. The monk is still behind the curve, but at least is on the same playing field. That isn't broken, it just works.
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That being said, it is a solution. As far pure mechanics go, the only issue I could see is that what stops a monk from enchanting themselves and then using an AOMF or Bodywrap? Yes, WBL will restrict that some, but not all games go strictly by WBL, and if the ability gets worded as the monk enchanting himself, it becomes a very real possibility(as items a PC makes that PC gets at half cost.)
Both are enchantment bonuses, so they don't stack.
As to flavor, monks are in pursuit of physical perfection, make it a feat or class feature that has the cost of gaining the enchantment spend in incense and oils.
It would even help fix the VOP monk.
Win, win all around.
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The Magus and Paladin can be disarmed, so can any single/TWF. Even if locked gauntlets are used (try to don two locked gauntlets by yourself) they can be sundered, broken, and the character summarily disarmed.
How do you disarm a monk that has enchanted his body parts?
Balancing their "weapon" enhancement options against every other TWF doesn't appear to be so simple.
Look up the sunder rules, sundering a magic weapon is much more difficult in Pathfinder.
As to Disarm, this is true. It is an advantage. Is it so much of an advantage that it should cost 50% more and take up a slot? I don't think so.
Again, feel free to post a build that would include this that would be broken relative to other classes of the same level, WBL and point buy.
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Let's be fair.
It is perfectly acceptable for a monk to flurry with a single weapon that does 1d8 x3 damage at 110' while getting wisdom to attack rolls but not one that does 1d8 19-20 x2 with no such benefits. At level 3. At level 9 he can make attacks of opportunity with his bow as well. That monk is okay and it's okay to pay for one weapon to flurry with. It is not okay for the monk to flurry with one monk weapon.
The fighter can get most of flurry with a bow, though point blank mastery will be delayed a bit. Rapid shot and many shot replace the first two TWF feats and double slice is not needed. The monk must reach level 16 before getting an extra attack over the archer fighter who only needs to enchant one weapon at the normal price. Then there's clustered shots just to add insult to injury.
Getting lots of attacks with a single weapon enchanted at the normal price is okay as long as that weapon also has marvelous range and at high levels gives you the option to golf bag banes at a price that is not completely absurd.
Right? Single weapon with extra attacks on a martial weapon (the best ranged weapon in the game by an absurd margin) available as a racial proficiency and the favored enemy for a pretty decent deity and in a smaller form with a puny -1 average damage to bards? That's just dandy. Single weapon with extra attacks for a glorified simple weapon or maybe a mediocre martial weapon that is pretty much identical to a weapon that optimizers eschew as weak? No. Absolutely unacceptable. Flurry with a temple sword is far too powerful.
I agree with you. And the current ruling is you can't flurry with one weapon, which functionally makes flurry TWF.
Which would be fine if a monk only had to pay like TWF and not have to pay more than TWF and give up a slot if they want to be unarmed.
The Zen Archer gives up Flurry, Maneuver Training, Evasion, Purity of Body, and Diamond Body.
Which is a lot.
Zen Archer isn't over powered. It is just right. I would like to get the rest of the monks there.
Not exactly . . . he gives up flurry for all weapons except the bow. He can still flurry, but just with bow and arrow.
MA
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The Zen Archer gives up Flurry, Maneuver Training, Evasion, Purity of Body, and Diamond Body.
Which is a lot.
Zen Archer isn't over powered. It is just right. I would like to get the rest of the monks there.
Not exactly . . . he gives up flurry for all weapons except the bow. He can still flurry, but just with bow and arrow.
MA
Yes and no. It isn't all that different from the Ranger choosing Archery rather than Two Weapon fighting.
The Zen Archer monk loses quite a bit of defense in exchange for not needing to get into melee.
I'm trying to figure out where this monk is 'broken' and I can't see it. Perhaps because you haven't actually posted up anything to compare it against, so you are just waving stats and saying it's too good without bothering to prove it.
Put it this way, the stats for your monk are actually very close to my monk I have just played in a game, and the only difference is that my monk had to spend two feats for Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, and never bothered with Power Attack (frankly I wouldn't with this build either, you lose too much to hit for it to be worth it to fight anything but mooks). Gear is slightly better, which accounts for the AC being slightly better than my monk managed. In my case the party paladin was always ahead of me on AC, saves, to hit and damage. The party magus was slightly behind me on saves and AC, but ahead on hitting and way ahead on damage one you factored in spell combat.
So actually, no, I don't think this can be considered bad in any way. It's basically slightly behind par for the course at that level with those stats for any class, and that's OK because the monk has good defences.
Take those stats, put the 19 into strength and run it and the damage is better for a full BAB class. Add plate armour above 1st level and the AC is as good if not better. The full BAB class still rules. The monk is still behind the curve, but at least is on the same playing field. That isn't broken, it just works.
The point was you were wanting Wisdom to hit, plus something that gave monk an innate bonus to hit/enhancement and DR penetration. All of that together is to much.
Honestly, I don't see the solution as making the monk work even more differently than the other classes. They already do that to some degree, making them more different isn't a good answer, because then you run into the very real possibility of making them as overpowered as some people think they are and getting massively nerfed into the ground.
*shrug* Its an opinion, nothing more. I tried showing why I thought that way (think about it, add in an enhancement bonus or DR like what your thinking and see what it would look like) and while I get power attack isn't a feat everyone would want to take, it does boost damage, and therefore the ability to punch through DR.
@ciretose: Like I said, it is a solution. If you don't give them the price reduction for making an item themselves, it puts them slightly ahead of where they are now going by WBL, but the AoMF is still an issue. An AoMF(Speed) by RAW should stack with the +3 Enhancement bonus on my enchanted fists right? If not, you'd have to spell it out explicitly, and then you'd also need to cover things like altering what you've enchanted yourself as. I mean, what if at lower levels you were fighting a lot of undead, and disruption was a good choice, but its been a level since you've seen an undead and your DM is talking about planar adventures?
Meh, I grew up in a family of engineers and several of my friends are engineers. They all have a rule, KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. The more complicated you make something, the better the chance mistakes, errors, and outright bad calls come in.
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Enhancement bonuses don't stack. Same type bonuses don't stack.
That is d20 101 stuff.
In order for the AoMF speed to stack, you would have to have +1 AoMF with speed. The +1 would do nothing and the speed could theoretically stack, although it wouldn't be hard for it not to stack since it doesn't stack with brass knuckles or gauntlets.
The concept is very simple. At 3rd level the monk's body becomes a masterwork weapon divided into two parts.
The rules for masterwork weapons apply.
Done and done.
Except you don't have to make an AoMF a +1. It can be bought with just special abilities, unlike the bodywrap.
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot neck; Price 5,000 gp (+1), 20,000 gp (+2), 45,000 gp (+3), 80,000 gp (+4), 125,000 gp (+5); Weight —DESCRIPTION
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,500 gp (+1), 10,000 gp (+2), 22,500 gp (+3), 40,000 gp (+4), 62,500 gp (+5)
No where in there does it say must have a +1. It specifically says it does not need an enhancement bonus to receive special abilities in fact (bolded above)
So, yes, either what you propose would need to intentionally be called out to not stack with an AoMF or similar items, or such an interaction needs to be thought about before hand.
The Zen Archer gives up Flurry, Maneuver Training, Evasion, Purity of Body, and Diamond Body.
Which is a lot.
Zen Archer isn't over powered. It is just right. I would like to get the rest of the monks there.
No, he's competent at one thing. Compare him with the other archers you could build from a ranger, paladin, fighter...yes, you see they are competent at more than one thing. The Zen Archer looks great compared to the core monk. Compared to an archer ranger/fighter/paladin he's 2nd rate.
The point was you were wanting Wisdom to hit, plus something that gave monk an innate bonus to hit/enhancement and DR penetration. All of that together is to much.
I fail to see why.
Wis bonus to hit means he is at the same attack bonus as the other full BAB classes if they were TWFing. Less if not.
All the natural enhancement bonus to hit means is that he gets +3 rather than +2 to hit at 12th level, but doesn't get the bonus to damage. As the other classes are using +3 weapons, they are getting + to hit AND damage. Admittedly the monk can add in an AoMF for bonus damage, but it's LESS bonus damage and no longer a given he will use it at all in favour of an AoNA. Even with it he is only on the level with the other classes, not ahead of them.
So compared to a full BAB class not using it's special thing, and TWFing, the monk is hitting as accurately, has similar AC, and does around the same damage (they have less dice, but higher static bonuses and greater threat range). They all then have their favoured enemy/rage/smite/weapon training. The monk has his defences and the ability to bypass DR.
Sorry, I'm failing to see what's too much about it. We just put the unarmed monk on a par with a full BAB class not using it's speciality. That's exactly where we wanted the monk to be as a combat class.
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I think the Zen Archer is fine. I don't think we are going to get anywhere exaggerating the problem.
The Zen Archer is fine. The armed monk is only slightly under powered, and this could be remedied by making unarmed better as a secondard.
The unarmed monk has issues. Fix them, and you fix the class.
And the fix is really, really simple if you just get rid of the sacred cow attached to AoMF.
@Dabbler: Like I said, it is an opinion. I don't think making the monk more reliant on wisdom is the answer. I think a static bump to hit every few levels (untyped) would be fine. There is plenty of precedent, and doesn't make playing a lower wisdom monk a handicap. In other words, that kind of fix suits multiple playstyles.
@ciretose: It doesn't work with gauntlets. They are manufactured weapons. Currently, the monks unarmed strike is counted as both a manufactured and natural weapon. Like I have said, what your suggesting is a solution, it just will take a lot of ruling and wording to balance it. Plus, how do they change out enchantments they no longer need/want? That is an issue if you want no interaction at all with an AoMF. It isn't so much that the AoMF is a sacred cow, it is more that the monk needs something inherently that interacts well with the AoMF, so they (as most players it seems want) finally get more benefit from it than other classes that can use it as well.
And guys, in some ways I'm just playing devils advocate here. Monk is and always has been one of my favorite classes (right next to the plane jane fighter and a hair behind the old fashioned wizard) and I hope that the Paizo guys actually read through these type of threads once in a while and will give us a fixed version of the class that works.
If nothing else, we get some good houserule fodder.
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It will take a ruling, not "a lot" of ruling to balance it. It either stacks or it doesn't. Easy ruling is it doesn't.
They don't change out enhancements. When you buy a weapon you buy a weapon, you don't swap it out.
Call it a balancing drawback for not being able to be disarmed. You can only add enhancements, but you can't change the.
At that point, might as well just get the +5 enhance bonus that way and that's it. Your actually just keeping the monk static now offensively while boosting defense thanks to the freed up amulet slot.
Either that or players end up taking nothing but safe enchants and then you run into clone army syndrome.
If your dead set on self enchanting, cap it at +5 and let it stack with an AoMF. Best of both worlds. Not really super monk like IMO, but that's OK. I would still be willing to bet there's some items out there it can interact with still that would need a call on.
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Not at all.
The AoMF's cost make it inaccessible by WBL until you are consistently several levels behind others. It caps at +5 and it takes a slot.
If you let it stack, the costs aren't comparable. If the monks body becomes two masterwork weapons, subject to the same treatment as say, for example, gauntlets, you would and could treat them as such.
Monks aren't using claws, they don't need all the benefits and drawbacks of the monster rules on natural attacks.
If that is what is holding back reasonable adjustment, it is a simple fix.
I don't think the issue is overly complicated. The monk can't hit thing as well as other 3/4 BaB classes, but is more dependent on being able to do so than any other 3/4 BaB class with the possible exception of the rogue.
Fix that, you fix the class.
Again, if the proposed fix is broken, show me the broken build.
ciretose, your focusing solely on the idea that a better to hit is all they need. If that is the case, why not do something similar to a magi's arcane pool of 1 ki for a level based enhancement bonus to their unarmed strikes for 1 minute?
Instead you want them to have all the time enchanted bodies. Ok, we'll overlook that by fluff and all they actually have more "weapons" than any other class (any part of their body, be it fists, feet, elbows, knee's, forehead, good lord, that is 9 right there) and split it down to just two. Can they enhance one half of their body separate than the other? What happens when that poor monk enhances himself with something, and then oops, realizes a level later that was a bad call. By your way of things, to bad, live with it. Kinda harsh don't you think?
You don't like AoMF, I get that. It sounds like if they made it slot less and free you'd still dislike it, I may be wrong, and correct me if I am but on its own, it is not that bad if the monk had an inherent way of getting the +hit +damage from enhancement bonuses.
It seems like, instead of finding a way to make the monk work within existing systems, you want to add more systems (and yes, enchanting yourself at full market cost, and all the decisions that get made to be fair and balanced is a new system). And that comes back to that KISS principle, the more you add, the better the chances of something not working right.
Yes and no. It isn't all that different from the Ranger choosing Archery rather than Two Weapon fighting.The Zen Archer monk loses quite a bit of defense in exchange for not needing to get into melee.
um a zen archer will have a higher ac then a normal "balanced" monk who wants damage, wisdom, and hit points. i mean a zen archer is getting to focus on wisdom and ignore strength completely, if he cooses to.
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I think we're wandering too far away from the main point: The Bodywraps are a bad item.
It's insulting to suggest that one class must be penalized on their gear's pricing because they just happen to be designed a certain way.
Unarmed Strike:
- Immune to disarm - What GMs ever use disarm on players? Taking away a player's weapon is practically guaranteeing they die (one look through the Beastiary is proof enough of that).
- Doesn't have to be readied - This isn't even a bonus. A sub-standard weapon gets free quick-draw (yes, even when it's all the way up at 2d10 it's substandard because of that 20/x2). Please.
- Can have it at the ready in places where you can't have weapons - What kind of nonsense corner-case argument... Seriously? You know how many times I've been presented before the King/Lord/Whatever in my 15ish years of gaming? Never. Because it's such a damn stereotype that no GM I've ever played with wants to even touch it. What if my Monk never ever gets into a situation where he/she is disallowed to carry a weapon? I have to pay extra because the potential is built in? If that's the case, why isn't it more expensive to enchant a dagger[small weapon] than a longsword[not small weapon], considering you can hide a dagger on your person but you can't hide a longsword?
Corner-case arguments are stupid to base rules around.
Amulet of Mighty Fists:
- Doesn't require a preliminary +1 to add special abilities - I'd much rather have an equal chance with EVERY OTHER CLASS to get to a potential +10 weapon, thanks.
- Bonus applies to all potential attacks - So if you're set-in-stone about Flurry acting like TWF, then at most, it acts like two different weapons and everything else is just fluff. So it should cost the same as two weapons. Why not more? Read all the stuff about UAS I already wrote.
What I want to know is why the developers insist that, "if an item enhances an unarmed strike, it should enhance a natural attack too." WHY? Why does a Monk have to be penalized just because an octopus/dragon/whatever has lots of natural attacks? Not to mention, the natural attacks that are available to players are all bad. d3-d6 damage, never more than 20/x2 crit rating. Who cares if I "cheat" my way around iterative attacks as a Toothy half-orc Barb with the Beast Totem line? I'm not doing better than any 2h Power-Attacking Barb who doesn't jump through nearly as many hoops.
Even getting multiple natural attacks for Sneak Attacks is a poor excuse to make the AoMF cost so much. Here's a hint: They're doing it for the sneak attack! Not the "awesomeness" of the natural attacks!
And now we have these Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes. All the arguments about how unarmed strikes are superior to weapons for X reasons are nullified when you use this item, because the only way to really make it work is when you pair it WITH A WEAPON.
And it's STILL more expensive than enchanting a weapon. And it STILL has a limit on how high the bonus can go.
This item is not only bad, but it's the best it's ever going to get as long as AoMF is never allowed to be touched.
And both the AoMF and the Bodywraps take up a valuable magic item slot while weapons do not. Why is there no discount for this??
Face it: Some sacred cows are stupid. AoMF is one. The Monk will never be competitive as long as Devs keep their blinders up about the AoMF.
(And, for what it's worth, I'm not trying to throw any negativity at the designer of the Bodywraps. Honestly, thank you for trying to throw Monks a bone to help them get around a bad rule. But the bottom line is workarounds for bad rules are dumb when you can just change the bad rule and negate the need for a workaround in the first place.)
@Dabbler: Like I said, it is an opinion. I don't think making the monk more reliant on wisdom is the answer. I think a static bump to hit every few levels (untyped) would be fine. There is plenty of precedent, and doesn't make playing a lower wisdom monk a handicap. In other words, that kind of fix suits multiple playstyles.
Every other class is reliant on one major score at least. I don't see why the monk should be an exception. A static boost is actually MORE prone to abuse, because you can stack it on top of good scores if you happen to have them (a lot of games still roll for stats).
Like you say, horses for courses, but I genuinely think that the wisdom alternative is the way that I'd go. It's like switching the paladin's casting stat to charisma, it reduces MAD but doesn't do away with it. I just wish the care and attention that was given to the Pathfinder paladin had been also lavished on the monk - then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Or maybe people are starting to share his opinions because they are realising that he's right?
Or maybe people are starting to share his opinions because they are realising that he's right?
Or that he has a point.
Calling it right from the get-go is what the nay-sayers would call a lie.
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For the options of spending ki to enhance an attack for a strictly unarmed monk, it would not be a far leap from the Monk of the Empty Hand build. Rather than applying the bonus to an improvised weapon, a monk could apply it to his/her unarmed strike. This monk would still only be proficient in shuriken, and it would solve the issue of DR because a monk could enhance his/her strikes by +5, or apply up to +5 in equivalent enhancements. Then the AoMF could be used for the other enhancements or the +5, whichever wasn't taken on by the monk's ki-expenditure. The duration should probably be re-worked to be longer than a single round, if this were to work, but this build would obviate the need for the BoMS.
Monk builds that wish to utilize weapons can use the BoMS for additional utility as is, and such monks would benefit from the reworking of the duration of ki powers just as much as the purely unarmed variety.
The +WIS modifier to attack rolls idea seems to be a good route as well, but it would probably be best implemented as an archetype akin to my above suggestion of the variant "Empty Hand" monk.
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I'm still baffled by the fact that the Brawler Fighter is proficient with more Monk weapons than the Monk itself as a class.
Regarding applicability of ki, what if:
- Starting at 4th, Monk receives (current ki)/2 as enhancement bonus to UAS, capped by level (e.g. max bonus +1 at 4th, +2 at 7th, etc)
- Make ki expenditure more useful by making the perks more valuable
This way, a Monk gets their enhancement bonus more or less "permanently" so long as they don't use too much ki. It represents their aura "charging" their attacks. Expend too much ki, eventually your attacks aren't as effective as they can be. At higher levels, you have enough ki over what you need to keep that bonus that you can afford to spend some without harming your bonus. At lower levels, it sets up a balancing act of whether to spend your ki on something NOW and risk giving up some or all of your bonus for the rest of the day, or keep your ki pool where it is to remain effective in combat.
In fact, if you take some or all of the static level bonuses and push them into ki expenditures to trigger, but with the ability unlocked at the same level it is granted now, you gain a level of variance in that not all monks have all abilities all the time, looking the same.
Thoughts?
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um a zen archer will have a higher ac then a normal "balanced" monk who wants damage, wisdom, and hit points. i mean a zen archer is getting to focus on wisdom and ignore strength completely, if he cooses to.
Yes and no. It isn't all that different from the Ranger choosing Archery rather than Two Weapon fighting.The Zen Archer monk loses quite a bit of defense in exchange for not needing to get into melee.
Not if he wants to do damage without burning Ki he won't. Wisdom is applied to attack, not damage. You still need the composite bow to do that, and strength to add. And since you lose stunning fist and don't get favored enemy, sneak attack or spells, you need strength. Not as much as a melee, but you still need it. The point buy isn't that much different.
@Krigare - I think not being able to hit is THE problem, period, full stop. Having a ki boost for minutes per level burns ki and causes the same "problems" you seem concerned about with enchanting unarmed, since you are functionally enchanting them for a shorter period of time.
If they made AoMF slotless, cost the same as the cost to a TWF and cap at 10 rather than 5 I would love it.
Instead it takes a slot, costs significantly more than two weapons of the same level, and caps at +5. So I don't.
If the monk is functionally getting two weapon fighting, the monk's cost should be equivilent to those of someone who is two weapon fighting.
AoMF is significantly more in both cost, max value, and slot allocation.
I think we're wandering too far away from the main point: The Bodywraps are a bad item.
It's insulting to suggest that one class must be penalized on their gear's pricing because they just happen to be designed a certain way.*snip*
What I want to know is why the developers insist that, "if an item enhances an unarmed strike, it should enhance a natural attack too." WHY? Why does a Monk have to be penalized just because an octopus/dragon/whatever has lots of natural attacks?
Well, that one is rather simple. Because unarmed strikes are natural attacks. People may not like that fact, but trying to pretend like it isn't true is ignoring that you are, in fact, attacking with a natural part of your body. That part just is what it is.
And now we have these Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes. All the arguments about how unarmed strikes are superior to weapons for X reasons are nullified when you use this item, because the only way to really make it work is when you pair it WITH A WEAPON.
And it's STILL more expensive than enchanting a weapon. And it STILL has a limit on how high the bonus can go.
This item is not only bad, but it's the best it's ever going to get as long as AoMF is never allowed to be touched.
They are less than idea for monks, yes. However, for other things in the game that do you use natural attacks, or use natural attacks and weapons, they are not, on the whole, horrible. Like with every other item in the game, you can't look at what is, in the scheme of things, a corner case. And yes, one class versus the rest of the classes and all the bestiary entries is setting up a corner case. You yourself said corner-case arguments are stupid to base rules around.
So, in the case of the monk, the Bodywraps are sub-par. Really sub-par. I think just about everyone who likes monks can agree on that point, and that the only way a monk can get any real mileage out of them is a specific style of play (which is a corner-case, and therefore not of much basis for an argument in favor of the Bodywraps for the monk class
And both the AoMF and the Bodywraps take up a valuable magic item slot while weapons do not. Why is there no discount for this??
Face it: Some sacred cows are stupid. AoMF is one. The Monk will never be competitive as long as Devs keep their blinders up about the AoMF.
(And, for what it's worth, I'm not trying to throw any negativity at the designer of the Bodywraps. Honestly, thank you for trying to throw Monks a bone to help them get around a bad rule. But the bottom line is workarounds for bad rules are dumb when you can just change the bad rule and negate the need for a workaround in the first place.)
OK, this is where I suppose I disagree with people, and all I can do is say what my opinion is, and present my thoughts and beliefs and either folks agree with me, agree to disagree. So here goes...
On the AoMF and being a stupid sacred cow, that really only holds true if, and only if, that is the only enhancement a monk can get to their unarmed strikes. On the other hand, if a monk has a way, innately, as part of the class, and at no cost to WBL, to get the other +5 worth of enhancement (either in bonus to hit or special abilities of use to a monk) then all of a sudden the AoMF doesn't look like this horribly overpriced sacred cow everyone see's it as. If you look at the monk revision I did (it's linked a page back or so) I did exactly that, and between that and the AoMF, it gives the monk the same weapons parity any other character has in terms of enhancement options.
Yes, there is a qualifier on me saying the AoMF isn't necessarily bad. But as the game is right now, no item is going to fix the monk issue. There is no way for them to release an item usable by low level monks another class could not get, and use, and most peoples issue seems to be with parity between the monk and other classes. So the actual fix becomes adding something to the class itself, not adding an item to the game anyone can get their hands on.
@Dabbler: Like I said, wisdom to hit isn't the route I'd go, but that is me. I can see more than a few cases where that turns into a nightmare for players and DM's both. And it really does turn their MAD into SAD. Unless, of course, that is the only 'fix' they apply, and do nothing for the damage reduction issue, and leave us with the AoMF being the enchantment item for unarmed strikes and no boost from the class.