Then you are paying more for less. at this point just buy two temple sword.Just going to throw this out there.
The Body-wraps of Mighty Strikes are good for a Monk who fights with a Monk Weapon and Unarmed Strike for Flurry.
That way you pay normal price for a weapon(kama, temple sword, etc.) and then pay about 1.5 cost for the BoMS. (Which can also stack with AoMF if done correctly.)
I understand that. But i'm just assuming you pay a little more for the Bodywraps because 1. It can be used by Natural Attacks and 2. Monks unarmed strike damage scales with level.
I'm happy with paying 1.5 price for a fist that continues getting better. But then again i usually play Monks with a Monk Weapon and a Unarmed Strike so i really like the Bodywraps.
i'm not really sure why people are surprised about Flurry working like 2WF: it directly states that upfront. The entire pricing structure for AoMF as used for UAS/Flurry only makes a shred of sense if Flurry is working like Two Weapon Fighting, with, surprise, TWO WEAPONS.
To be fair, the flurry text states that it works as if using the two weapon fighting feat. If you read that feat, you'll see that the only thing it modifies is the penalty for two weapon fighting. Anyone can get extra attacks by using two weapons, but the penalties are prohibitive if you don't have the feat. Now, if that's the way you've read flurry, what do you have? You have a new mechanic that states when you get extra attacks at reduced penalty and specifies that you can use any combination of monk weapons.
Actually, based on the wording of flurry, I wonder if using two temple swords makes you take a -4 instead of -2 because your offhand weapon isn't light.
My only problem with the item is it takes the body slot--I don't think you should have to choose between the BOMS and the Monk's Robes any more than you should between the Amulet of Mighty Fists and the Amulet of Natural Armor.
And given it's described in the descriptive chest as wrapping "around the chest" I'd rather it be a chest slot item (if it gets used in my games, it probably will be).
I understand that. But i'm just assuming you pay a little more for the Bodywraps because 1. It can be used by Natural Attacks and 2. Monks unarmed strike damage scales with level.
I'm happy with paying 1.5 price for a fist that continues getting better. But then again i usually play Monks with a Monk Weapon and a Unarmed Strike so i really like the Bodywraps.
Yes, you get +1 unarmed damage every 4 levels: 1d6 to 1d8 is 1 damage, 1d8 to 1d10 is 1, 1d10 ro 2d6 is 1, 2d6 to 2d8 is 1, etc.
But, you have to deal with DR, only Body Wraps help here (Amulet doesn't).
The problem with the flurry of blows text is that it allows "any combination" of attacks "as if using the two-weapon fighting feat".
But the two-weapon fighting feat does not allow "any combination" of attacks.
Yeah, "any Combination" was clarified to be a lie by the designers. Copy Paste error from 3.5 basically.
I understand that. But i'm just assuming you pay a little more for the Bodywraps because 1. It can be used by Natural Attacks and 2. Monks unarmed strike damage scales with level.
I'm happy with paying 1.5 price for a fist that continues getting better. But then again i usually play Monks with a Monk Weapon and a Unarmed Strike so i really like the Bodywraps.
Yes, you get +1 unarmed damage every 4 levels: 1d6 to 1d8 is 1 damage, 1d8 to 1d10 is 1, 1d10 ro 2d6 is 1, 2d6 to 2d8 is 1, etc.
But, you have to deal with DR, only Body Wraps help here (Amulet doesn't).
Yeah, "any Combination" was clarified to be a lie by the designers. Copy Paste error from 3.5 basically.The problem with the flurry of blows text is that it allows "any combination" of attacks "as if using the two-weapon fighting feat".
But the two-weapon fighting feat does not allow "any combination" of attacks.
Ah, not exactly. That phrase was NOT present in 3.5, it was added in Pathfinder.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
I bolded the relevant section above. 3.5 used the text "interchangeably as desired". Pathfinder altered that to "using any combination of". Jason and Sean have said their intention was that phrase meant you could replace any special monk weapon attack with an unarmed strike, but their intention was not clear.
MA
I understand that. But i'm just assuming you pay a little more for the Bodywraps because 1. It can be used by Natural Attacks and 2. Monks unarmed strike damage scales with level.Then you are paying more for less. at this point just buy two temple sword.Just going to throw this out there.
The Body-wraps of Mighty Strikes are good for a Monk who fights with a Monk Weapon and Unarmed Strike for Flurry.
That way you pay normal price for a weapon(kama, temple sword, etc.) and then pay about 1.5 cost for the BoMS. (Which can also stack with AoMF if done correctly.)
1. Once again the monk gets penalised for an item "for monks" because it's usable by other things who can get more mileage out of it.
2. Yes unarmed damage scales, but it doesn't actually start out that good to begin with, lacks static bonuses, and has an appalling threat range. However, the best answer to scaling monk damage is have an item that delivers a bonus to hit only.
I'm happy with paying 1.5 price for a fist that continues getting better. But then again i usually play Monks with a Monk Weapon and a Unarmed Strike so i really like the Bodywraps.
But you aren't paying 1.5x price, in real terms, compared to a weapon you are paying 3x price. Remember a weapon is slotless, and slotless doubles the cost of an item. Taking up a slot costs.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'm happy with paying 1.5 price for a fist that continues getting better. But then again i usually play Monks with a Monk Weapon and a Unarmed Strike so i really like the Bodywraps.But you aren't paying 1.5x price, in real terms, compared to a weapon you are paying 3x price. Remember a weapon is slotless, and slotless doubles the cost of an item. Taking up a slot costs.
Well A) that's a cost guideline, not a hard and fast rule. The same table says "Weapon - Bonus Squared x 2000 gp" so if you want to go by the book, a slotless weapon would cost twice that--4,000 gp for a +1...this is clearly not the case.
B) Weapons still need to be wielded to be used, and that's a space limitation even if it's not a slot. I know I've priced magic items that way, and I've seen other freelancers do so as well (though I haven't gone back and compared my original prices to the finished product in all those cases, and some of them may well have had their price doubled as far as I know).
As I understand it, the slotless cost increase is for items with no opportunity cost. An ioun stone doesn't keep you from using another ioun stone, a luck stone doesn't fill up your pocket. A weapon does keep you from using another weapon (most characters get two at a time, max), and thus its cost is not doubled.
So I'd say yes, the wraps are 1.5 x the cost of a weapon, not x 3.
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How exactly is a Unarmed Strike and a Temple Sword not two weapons?You are out of the loop. SKR and Jason clarified that it works like TWF and requires two weapons.
That is what lead to all the monk outrage threads. MA or Dabbler have the link I am sure.
The Body wrap only applies to the first strike, so the rest of the unarmed attacks don't include the bonus. The Temple sword only applies to every other attack.
As a monk, you are doing more than 2 attacks a round as early as 4th level.
Can you even afford the Body wrap under WBL at that point?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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How exactly is a Unarmed Strike and a Temple Sword not two weapons?You are out of the loop. SKR and Jason clarified that it works like TWF and requires two weapons.
That is what lead to all the monk outrage threads. MA or Dabbler have the link I am sure.
The Body wrap only applies to the first strike, so the rest of the unarmed attacks don't include the bonus. The Temple sword only applies to every other attack.
As a monk, you are doing more than 2 attacks a round as early as 4th level.
Can you even afford the Body wrap under WBL at that point?
Where does it say the wrap applies to the first attack you make? As I read it, it applies to an attack of your choice.
So, at 4th level, you'd be making one attack with your temple sword, one unarmed attack (which you choose to enhance with the wrap), and then spending a ki point to make an extra attack with your temple sword. All attacks enhanced.
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How exactly is a Unarmed Strike and a Temple Sword not two weapons?You are out of the loop. SKR and Jason clarified that it works like TWF and requires two weapons.
That is what lead to all the monk outrage threads. MA or Dabbler have the link I am sure.
The Body wrap only applies to the first strike, so the rest of the unarmed attacks don't include the bonus. The Temple sword only applies to every other attack.
As a monk, you are doing more than 2 attacks a round as early as 4th level.
Can you even afford the Body wrap under WBL at that point?
Where does it say the wrap applies to the first attack you make? As I read it, it applies to an attack of your choice.
So, at 4th level, you'd be making one attack with your temple sword, one unarmed attack (which you choose to enhance with the wrap), and then spending a ki point to make an extra attack with your temple sword. All attacks enhanced.
It applies to one attack, takes your body slot and most of your WBL up to the point where you have so many attacks it isn't very usefully anymore except on the first attack, yet still costs significantly more than a weapon enhancement on a weapon that doesn't take a body slot.
It is an absurd attempt to address the problem, and now that it exists, correcting the issue requires it becoming obsolete.
It is the reason everyone following the discussions got angry about an otherwise great ultimate equipment book.
It was like offering a blind man a telescope.
Let me ask, before this thread gets out of hand like the one about the Brawler armor did:
Master Arminas, please, describe for me a magical item for monks that you would want and be happy with.
I think what would work better is if monks were less dependent on magic items, but that's not part of how D&D works. The bodywraps were a good idea ("let's make something for monks cheaper but more limited than the AoMF") but badly implemented ("let's limit the number of attacks they can enhance rather than specific items").
It would have worked if it (a) didn't take up a lot already 'taken' for the monk (say take a ring slot instead) and (b) if it effected all attacks but was limited in another way, such as applying to attacks but not to damage. Then the pricing would be OK and the item would have a good use.
Design Manager
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Master Arminas has many ideas about how the monk can be fixed, but I'll tell you one that would make most people happy. An item that isn't prohibitely expensive, affects all of a monks unarmed strikes, and allows his to-hit to scale at a comparable pace to other people who regularly engage in melee combat.
I've advocated for a ki pool based item that gives a monk an enhancement bonus to hit only as long as he has at least 1 point left in his ki pool. Maybe enhancements that allow the monk to overcome specified types of DR by expending a ki point?
I've championed that as well Ssalarn - let ki-strike give a scaling enhancement bonus; for a ki-point they could bypass some forms of DR for one minute (or one round per level), for 2 ki-points more DR, etc.
I also think the monk needs to use their wisdom modifier as their to-hit ability score, to cut down on MAD (dex and strength are still needed for damage and AC, of course, they just aren't needed as badly, which is about where every other class in the game stands).
Some other abilities need a good hard look, but these three are the big ones.
Just out of curiosity, if you were to purchase the body wrap initially and a natural armor amulet, would it be cheaper to tack on something like a +2 AoMF to that than the other way around?
Is there not a good way to make the purchasing of a plus 10 unarmed strike more cost efficient with the use of an off hand monk weapon?
Master Arminas has many ideas about how the monk can be fixed, but I'll tell you one that would make most people happy. An item that isn't prohibitely expensive, affects all of a monks unarmed strikes, and allows his to-hit to scale at a comparable pace to other people who regularly engage in melee combat.
I've advocated for a ki pool based item that gives a monk an enhancement bonus to hit only as long as he has at least 1 point left in his ki pool. Maybe enhancements that allow the monk to overcome specified types of DR by expending a ki point?
This would be good if you could add it to a ring slot or something. basically the same as statting up a single weapon with the cost doubled. Rings can be sundered just as easily as anything else so there should be no issue their.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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@ciretose
It is about half your wealth at 4th, true, but you really don't need it that early (anymore than you need two +1 weapons at 4th). I mean hell, if you're buying equipment the balanced way, you shouldn't have any magic weapons at 4th.
Once you do get one, it remains useful for as long as any +1 weapon remains useful.
At 8th level, when the monk gets an additional TWFing attack in his flurry, the wraps enhance two attacks per round. Boom, perfect, you go Temple Sword, Wrap, Temple Sword, Wrap, and then if you have haste or spend ki, you get one extra Temple Sword. Good as gold.
Ditto for 15th, when the monk gets a third TWFing attack.
You will be paying a little more that you would on a standard weapon to enhance it further, but not catastrophically more.
Let me ask, before this thread gets out of hand like the one about the Brawler armor did:
Master Arminas, please, describe for me a magical item for monks that you would want and be happy with.
It has been stated elsewhere that the monk fixes won't be gear based; I assume that also means there won't be a magical gear-based fix. That is interesting, but raises other questions, like, what will monks do with all their money, or will they have less WBL, and, heaven forbid, what if the fix doesn't cut it in players' opinions, and thus gear is needed anyhow.
Me personally, I'd like to see a cheaper Agile AoMF, perhaps something monk-specific. Or how about a bead of ki storing? Does such a thing exist?
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Let me ask, before this thread gets out of hand like the one about the Brawler armor did:
Master Arminas, please, describe for me a magical item for monks that you would want and be happy with.
I'll give you three, since you asked. Two which are already posted on these boards.
Okay, let’s take a look at them. First up, we have the The Pouch of Infinite Stars that I posted here a while ago. Also known as the "my God, it's full of stars".
Aura: Moderate conjuration
CL: 6th
Slot: None (worn on the belt)
Price: 13,000 gp
Weight: 2 lb
Description: This leather pouch is designed to worn on a belt. Unremarkable in appearance, it is actually quite heavily enchanted. Upon looking into the pouch, it appears to contain ten non-magical shuriken. The wearer may draw and throw them as needed. The magic of this item then becomes readily apparent. At the start of the wearer's next turn, the pouch once again refills with ten new shuriken. The bearer of this item never need fear running out of throwing stars so long as he wears this item. Shuriken removed from the pouch vanish after one round, whether or not they are thrown or if they strike a target.
The pouch has two powers besides this. First, five times per day, the wearer may utter one of two command words as a swift action. After doing so the shuriken he pulls from the pouch are either cold iron or mithril silver. These shuriken vanish after 1 round, just as normal shuriken do, whether or not they are used. Second, twice per day, the bearer of the pouch may utter a command word as a swift action. After doing so, any shuriken he draws from the pouch possess a +2 enhancement bonus. This effect lasts until the start of the wielders next round. A few rare pouches only possess a +1 enhancement bonus, but also provide a +1 special weapon property, such as distance, flaming, frost, or bane. Such pouches of infinite shuriken never possess the returning property. The wearer of this pouch may not activate both properties at the same time.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, abundant ammunition, magic weapon*
Cost: 6,500gp
*Pouches of infinite stars with a special weapon property, such as the pouch of infinite flaming stars or the pouch of infinite seeking stars add the spell listed in the special weapons property to the requirements listed above. See Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions (pg. 461-463) in the Core Reference Document for exact details.
Simple item that fills a much-needed niche for monks. I mean, shuriken count as ammunition, so that weight adds up mighty fast. Second, since even magic shuriken are destroyed on a hit, their cost also climbs very, very fast. This item isn't the end-all, be-all of monkdom, but it fills a slot that is very much needed for those monks who use throwing stars.
Next, we have the Monk’s Fighting Gloves, also posted in the past.
Aura: Faint (+1), Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 3rd (+1), 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 3,000 gp (+1), 12,000 gp (+2), 27,000 gp (+3), 48,000 gp (+4), 75,000 gp (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. The enhancement bonus granted by these gloves bypasses damage reduction just like magic weapons.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon or greater magic fang, creator must have a caster three at least three times the bonus granted
Cost: 1,500 gp (+1), 6,000 gp (+2), 13,500 gp (+3), 24,000 gp (+4), 37,500 gp (+5)
Aura: Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 27,000 gp (+2), 42,000 gp (+3), 63,000 gp (+4), 90,000 gp (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. The enhancement bonus granted by these gloves bypasses damage reduction just like magic weapons.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon or greater magic fang, daze monster, creator must have a caster three at least three times the bonus granted
Cost: 13,500 gp (+2), 21,000 gp (+3), 31,500 gp (+4), 45,000 gp (+5)
Aura: Moderate (+3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 57,000 gp (+3), 78,000 gp (+4), 105,000 gp (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. If worn by a character with the Quivering Palm special ability, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Quivering Palm. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. The enhancement bonus granted by these gloves bypasses damage reduction just like magic weapons.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon or greater magic fang, daze monster, finger of death, creator must have a caster three at least three times the bonus granted
Cost: 28,500 gp (+3), 39,000 (+4), 52,500 gp (+5)
Sure, they are gloves, but they affect the whole body. Bracers of armor are worn on the arms and THEY affect the whole body. Boots of teleportation and boots of speed are worn on the feet and THEY affect the whole body. Why not gloves? I made then unarmed only (no natural attacks) to cut down the price. Also, they cannot have special weapon properties (but will stack with an amulet of mighty fists in that regard). I priced them as more expensive because unarmed strikes cannot be sundered, disarmed, lost, stolen, taken, etc., etc., etc. But I didn't price them as two weapons because (in my opinion) unarmed strikes are not multiple weapons. They are one weapon which can be fluffed as any part of the body.
And the gloves allow for an amulet of natural armor, which leads to my third and final item, which has not yet been posted here on Paizo: The Robes of the Old Order.
Aura: Faint
CL: 3rd
Slot: Body
Price: 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8), 81,000 gp (+9), 100,000 gp (+10)
Weight: 1 lb
Description: This set of well-made hooded robes are usually plain in appearance, and are normally found in subdued shades of brown, grey, white, and black, although some rather flamboyant robes of the old order in more vibrant shades have been reported. When worn, these robes grant to the wearer with an enhancement bonus of between +1 and +5 to his AC, while remaining as supple, lightweight, and unencumbering as a set of normal clothing. There is no arcane spell failure, armor check penalty, or speed penalty associated with this item, and monks can wear it freely without forfeiting their class AC bonus, flurry of blows, or high speed.
In addition to an enhancement bonus, these robes may also be enchanted with any special armor properties, such as ghost touch or light fortification. The robes cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special property bonus equivalents) higher than +10. If the robes possess a special ability they must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike bracers of armor, the robes may add special armor properties that add a flat gp amount to their cost. The armor bonus granted by these robes do not stack with ordinary armor, nor may they do so with spells such as magic vestment. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the robes of the old order cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special properties until the other source is removed. If the robes of the old order grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, magic vestment, creator must have a caster three at least three times the bonus granted
Cost: 500 gp (+1), 2,000 gp (+2), 4,500 gp (+3), 8,000 gp (+4), 12,500 gp (+5), 18,000 gp (+6), 24,500 gp (+7), 32,000 gp (+8), 40,500 gp (+9), 50,000 gp (+10)
Sure, bracers of armor will give you a higher bonus (+8 vs +5), but these can hold special armor properties that have a set price and the bracers can't. Also, since the gloves (above) free up the neck slot, you can easily get an amulet of natural armor to make up the difference. Sure, you can't get a set of monk's robes, what do they really give you? A +1 to AC, an average of +1 (at every level but 20), and one more stunning fist use per day.
I hope that answers your question.
MA
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@ciretose
It is about half your wealth at 4th, true, but you really don't need it that early (anymore than you need two +1 weapons at 4th). I mean hell, if you're buying equipment the balanced way, you shouldn't have any magic weapons at 4th.
Once you do get one, it remains useful for as long as any +1 weapon remains useful.
At 8th level, when the monk gets an additional TWFing attack in his flurry, the wraps enhance two attacks per round. Boom, perfect, you go Temple Sword, Wrap, Temple Sword, Wrap, and then if you have haste or spend ki, you get one extra Temple Sword. Good as gold.
Ditto for 15th, when the monk gets a third TWFing attack.
You will be paying a little more that you would on a standard weapon to enhance it further, but not catastrophically more.
4th level is where nearly every character has a magic weapon, because that is the level you start dealing with magic resistance and incorporeal.
A magic weapon is cost + Masterwork + 2000.
The wrap costs 3000 and a slot, that can only apply to one attack. That is more, for less, and I can't afford both.
At 8th level a monk has 4 to 5 attacks. It will cost me 12,000 and a body slot to get a +2 Wrap I can use two of those attacks a round.
It will cost me 8000 for a +2 weapon I can use on the other 2 to 3 attacks. That is more, for less.
You have designed an item that basically says "Screw you if you want to fight with just your fists"
And it caps at +7.
The item is the problem.
There is no issue with allowing monks to enhance unarmed strike as they would any other weapon, at the same cost as TWF.
None.
Zero.
If I'm wrong, show me the math. The monk starts out behind in attack bonus from ability score because they are MAD. The damage enhancements they gain from unarmed still keep unarmed behind most weapons until late in the game, and that is the only damage bonus they get, as compared to Rogue sneak attack, inquisitor bane and judgement, Cleric, Druid, Oracle, and Bard Self Buff.
Notice I didn't even get into full BaB.
There is no reason to create such a nerfed item. There is no overpower issue with allowing the monk to have what they had with brass knuckles in a form that better fits flavor.
The brass knuckles did not make the Monk overpowered.
Is anyone arguing that they did?
If you allow the monks to buff unarmed damage at a comparable cost to TWF, all problems are solved.
This item basically says they are more concerned about the monk being overpowered than addressing the low attack bonus and DR problems.
That is why it has become such a lightning rod.
MA goes way too far IMHO, but this item makes correcting the real issue harder, as there is no way to give a reasonable item that doesn't make this one obsolete.
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By the way, my solution is at 3rd level make the monks entire body into a masterwork weapon, divided into two parts.
Each side can be enhanced just as you would a weapon, at the same cost as a weapon, through ritual and meditation.
You now have the ability to make a monk with +2 icy and flaming burst fists.
That is awesome, and not broken. Feel free to show me the math, it is the same cost as TWF, with 3/4 bab for non flurry and a lower primary attack ability than any other melee class.
They will still have a lower attack bonus than most 3/4 classes in non-flurry and a lower attack bonus than full bab classes when they flurry, without self buff spells or attack and damage bonuses other classes get.
Show me that breaking the math, and I'll shut up about it.
Personally, I think they have a mechanic in game already that could fix a lot of these issues. Magic items aren't a fix, but replacing ki strike with a renamed reflavored arcane pool ability( fueled by ki) would go along way. Make it stack with an aomf(so that's not invalidated) and make the selectable weapon enhancements monk flavored and there you go.
Somewhat similar to ki strike, while helping with the hit/damage issue and the fists/weapons enchantment disparity(+5 vs +10).
Oh, and it happens to have the side effect of being monk only at that point, so no one should complain about it helping other classes( which any magic item would do.)
EDIT: Typos bug me.
Regarding the Robes of the Old Order, there isn't any existing item that gives an enhancement bonus to AC per se. Magical armour has an enhancement to its armour bonus.
I recommend that you change this from an enhancement bonus to an armour bonus.
In 3.5, clothing was considered to '0 armor bonus'. I.e., you could add enhancement bonuses to that 0, just like with magical armor, except it stayed clothing, not armor. I look at the robes the same way: base AC 0, not armor, but clothes, to which is an an enhancement bonus to Armor. In fact, let's look at magic vestment:
You imbue a suit of armor or shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
Grants an enhancement bonus. Doesn't say to AC or armor, but then the first sentence is talking about armor and shields. The second one is the one I am most interested in. If it works for a spell, why not a permanent magic item? We also have the Robe of the Archimagi, which grants a +5 armor bonus to AC, yet isn't armor.
The spell does one thing, the item does another. Either way, it works.
MA
I have to admit, I'm a little shocked by the items you proposed. Why get so complicated?
If it were me, I'd just want to let the monk enchant his body like it was a weapon (because it is a weapon) and be done with it.
If there's some fear of abuse, just tie it to the ki pool. Certain monk levels allow for a certain level cap on the enchantments (so, a level X monk could have an ability that allows them to enchant their body up to a +Y equivalent).
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this actually isnt that bad for a non flurry monk.
monk of MoMS would love this more then a +1 ac and +1 stunning fist, even a crappy die increase.
a maneuver master would love this for triping and disarming.
a sensai could use this to max out his monk of the four winds awesomeness, 4 standard attacks, each with a +5
now the item its self is garbage and over priced, but i could see my tetori taking this over a monks robe and AOMF so i could toss on an amulet of natural armor. but unfortuneatly, like every other item in the game it doesnt help grapple.
I WANT BONUSES TO GRAPPLE G~~ D@%N IT!!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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4th level is where nearly every character has a magic weapon, because that is the level you start dealing with magic resistance and incorporeal.
A magic weapon is cost + Masterwork + 2000.
The wrap costs 3000 and a slot, that can only apply to one attack. That is more, for less, and I can't afford both.
At 8th level a monk has 4 to 5 attacks. It will cost me 12,000 and a body slot to get a +2 Wrap I can use two of those attacks a round.
It will cost me 8000 for a +2 weapon I can use on the other 2 to 3 attacks. That is more, for less.
You have designed an item that basically says "Screw you if you want to fight with just your fists"
And I think that final statement is where the problem comes in.
This item isn't for people who fight with just their fists. This is an item for the people who fight with their fists AND something else. Up until now, those people had to buy a Weapon AND an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which was a lot more expensive than the wraps and only enhanced half their attacks anyway. That sucked.
Now they have an alternative. It's not as cheap as another weapon, (and not as cheap as you want it to be), but it's cheaper than the amulet, and that's an improvement.
BTW - I don't know if you assumed it, or were just using a turn of phrase, but I didn't design this item. If I had, I wouldn't be arguing about it on the boards--I try not to do that with my own work (though I'm not always successful)
At 8th level, when the monk gets an additional TWFing attack in his flurry, the wraps enhance two attacks per round. Boom, perfect, you go Temple Sword, Wrap, Temple Sword, Wrap, and then if you have haste or spend ki, you get one extra Temple Sword. Good as gold.
Yep. No offence, Benchak, but as usual the standard response to monks being ineffective when fighting unarmed is "Well use a weapon then!" Am I the only person who thinks this is kind of underlining the point that the monk's primary weapon, unarmed strike, is in fact ineffective without a proper means of enhancement?
I mean yes, this is a great item for someone who uses fists-and-weapon, but that's very much a small niche, isn't it? Most monks will go either all-armed or all-unarmed, and this item is obsolete for either.
{and other stuff}
Nice, I like it. The gloves will never happen, they will obsolete the AoMF. The robe, you need to cap the maximum enhancement bonus to +8 or (more likesly) +7, with the rest being properties. There's a reason that bracers of armour cap out at +8, and it's to stop the AC of an unarmoured person topping that of an armoured one. Besides, AC is not really a monk problem if you can get past MAD.
Personally, I think they have a mechanic in game already that could fix a lot of these issues. Magic items aren't a fix, but replacing ki strike with a renamed reflavored arcane pool ability( fueled by ki) would go along way. Make it stack with an aomf(so that's not invalidated) and make the selectable weapon enhancements monk flavored and there you go.
Somewhat similar to ki strike, while helping with the hit/damage issue and the fists/weapons enchantment disparity(+5 vs +10).
Oh, and it happens to have the side effect of being monk only at that point, so no one should complain about it helping other classes( which any magic item would do.)
Problem with this is that if it links to ki the monk needs a LOT more ki points and the ability to use ki as a free action, not a swift action. Ki is simply not designed to be used through out all of a day's combats, it's there for occasional boosts. It either needs to apply for longer time periods (like a magus' arcana points) or require only a swift action to activate and a free action to use.
Having ki points enhance strikes round-by-round basically takes away any other use of ki during combat.
If Ki-pool's uses and quantity are not to change, enhancement needs to be an innate property of ki-strike, not something you spend ki on. Spending ki on bypassing DR, though, that's not such an issue. You are guaranteed to need a decent weapon in every fight, but you are not guaranteed to run into a creature with DR in every fight.
Personally, I think they have a mechanic in game already that could fix a lot of these issues. Magic items aren't a fix, but replacing ki strike with a renamed reflavored arcane pool ability( fueled by ki) would go along way. Make it stack with an aomf(so that's not invalidated) and make the selectable weapon enhancements monk flavored and there you go.
Somewhat similar to ki strike, while helping with the hit/damage issue and the fists/weapons enchantment disparity(+5 vs +10).
Oh, and it happens to have the side effect of being monk only at that point, so no one should complain about it helping other classes( which any magic item would do.)
Problem with this with this is that if it links to ki the monk needs a LOT more ki points and the ability to use ki as a free action, not a swift action. Ki is simply not designed to be used through out all of a day's combats, it's there for occasional boosts. It either needs to apply for longer time periods (like a magus' arcana points) or require only a swift action to activate and a free action to use.
Having ki points enhance strikes round-by-round basically takes away any other use of ki during combat.
If Ki-pool's uses and quantity are not to change, enhancement needs to be an innate property of ki-strike, not something you spend ki on. Spending ki on bypassing DR, though, that's not such an issue. You are guaranteed to need a decent weapon in every fight, but you are not guaranteed to run into a creature with DR in every fight.
Oh, you misunderstand, I am talking about it applying like how a magis arcane pool points do, 1 minute at a time. The get the same amount of arcane points monks get ki points, and have as many if not more things to spend it on, so seems pretty fair to me.
It is a thought.
Oh, you misunderstand, I am talking about it applying like how a magis arcane pool points do, 1 minute at a time. The get the same amount of arcane points monks get ki points, and have as many if not more things to spend it on, so seems pretty fair to me.
It is a thought.
I agree, it's a good idea, but ki-pool and arcane pool work in different ways. Both require swift actions, but arcane pool effects last one minute while most ki-pool effects (except that you have suggested) last one round. As that's the default, alternatives should be clearly stated as lasting longer.
Ki-pool really needs an overhaul as well as the monk class in this case, and that's not a bad thing.
Oh, you misunderstand, I am talking about it applying like how a magis arcane pool points do, 1 minute at a time. The get the same amount of arcane points monks get ki points, and have as many if not more things to spend it on, so seems pretty fair to me.
It is a thought.
I agree, it's a good idea, but ki-pool and arcane pool work in different ways. Both require swift actions, but arcane pool effects last one minute while most ki-pool effects (except that you have suggested) last one round. As that's the default, alternatives should be clearly stated as lasting longer.
Ki-pool really needs an overhaul as well as the monk class in this case, and that's not a bad thing.
Mechanically they aren't that dissimilar IMO. But that's me.
Likewise, I'm not so sure the monk class needs an overhaul as much as it needs some abilities tweaked (like the ki strike thing I mentioned.) It comes down I would imagine to what people see the monks role as. If they see the monks role as the guy who is a master of unarmed combat, on the front lines with the fighter doing the same kind of dpr as the fighter but unarmed (seems to be a common thought) then...well, that's going to end up with a reflavored fighter. If people see it as more of a mystic martial artist, able to hold their own in a distinctly monk way, that's going to end up with more traditional AD&D monk (the 1e one anyway.)
I agree, one problem with the monk is that he doesn't have a clear 'one of the big four' role. On the flip side, he has to be a combat class because he certainly can't do anything else. To be effective at combat he needs this boost - and it would be nice if he was the best at something other than running away. That's why I think the monk SHOULD be the best at unarmed combat, and currently he isn't.
Oh, I agree he doesn't have a clear role. But I think 3.0/.5/PF has kind of shattered that "big 4" method of play. The depowering of traps, expansion of healing, huge variety of ways to deal damage, and UMD has, in so many ways, altered the fighter/cleric/thief/wizard basis the game used to have.
I do believe the monk needs to be better at unarmed combat (its their 'thing' if you will) but I am not so sure about needing to be the 'best'. They don't have the feat options and availability the fighter does, and that means from a purely mechanics point of view you can either add them in inherently to the monk, at which point why play a fighter if the monk does dpr better( and 2d10 with a fist vs 2d6 with a great sword...yeah, add in more attacks and the monk wins.)
I would really like to see the monk get shifted closer to what they were. Hard to hurt, offense just a step behind a fighter, with a unique bag of useful tricks that makes them stand apart. And that last is where the monk falls flattest right now to me. It isn't an easy thing to point at one specific monk ability and go 'yeah, this falls flat' it is just an overall feel of their non-combat abilities. If they could fix those, I think we would see less complaints about the monk. I've got a revision I did of the monk sitting on my HD at home, I might see about throwing it up and posting it in the home brew forum after I get off work tonight.
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This item isn't for people who fight with just their fists. This is an item for the people who fight with their fists AND something else.
The problem is this item makes it harder to make an item that allows you to just fight with fists, and that is why people are angry about it.
Many players want to have an unarmed monk that can hit things competitively with other 3/4 BaB classes.
All of the other 3/4 BaB classes can either self buff with spells and/or abilities, or are able to focus on a skill that grows attack bonus (Rogue Dexterity).
This item makes fixing this problem impossible without obsoleting the item. I would argue this is not true of AoMF, since it still gets a full life as a Druid/Animal Companion item.
This item not only doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.
This item isn't for people who fight with just their fists. This is an item for the people who fight with their fists AND something else.
The problem is this item makes it harder to make an item that allows you to just fight with fists, and that is why people are angry about it.
Many players want to have an unarmed monk that can hit things competitively with other 3/4 BaB classes.
All of the other 3/4 BaB classes can either self buff with spells and/or abilities, or are able to focus on a skill that grows attack bonus (Rogue Dexterity).
This item makes fixing this problem impossible without obsoleting the item. I would argue this is not true of AoMF, since it still gets a full life as a Druid/Animal Companion item.
This item not only doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.
Monks could focus on Dexterity as well as an offensive stat, Weapon Fitness + Agile on an AoMF, so that argument really doesn't hold a lot of water. Add in a body wrap for use on the first 2-3 strikes at higher levels and all of a sudden its not as bad as your trying to make it seem.
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Monks could focus on Dexterity as well as an offensive stat, Weapon Fitness + Agile on an AoMF, so that argument really doesn't hold a lot of water. Add in a body wrap for use on the first 2-3 strikes at higher levels and all of a sudden its not as bad as your trying to make it seem.
Except
A) They won't do any damage, as they don't get sneak attack and still can't overcome Damage Reduction as enhancement bonuses to weapons can.
B) They still need Wisdom.
C) They can't afford the AoMF until several level after everyone else has a weapon of the same enhancement bonus.
D) AoMF takes a slot.
E) AoMF caps at +5
The wrap doesn't stack with AoMF, so I have no idea what you mean about the rest.
Monks could focus on Dexterity as well as an offensive stat, Weapon Fitness + Agile on an AoMF, so that argument really doesn't hold a lot of water. Add in a body wrap for use on the first 2-3 strikes at higher levels and all of a sudden its not as bad as your trying to make it seem.Except
A) They won't do any damage, as they don't get sneak attack and still can't overcome Damage Reduction as enhancement bonuses to weapons can.
B) They still need Wisdom.
C) They can't afford the AoMF until several level after everyone else has a weapon of the same enhancement bonus.
D) AoMF takes a slot.
E) AoMF caps at +5The wrap doesn't stack with AoMF, so I have no idea what you mean about the rest.
A) No, they don't get sneak attack. Enhancement bonuses will overcome DR, as does Ki Strike to some degree, so don't make it out to sound worse than it is. Furthermore, there are plenty of feats and styles to add to what a monks unarmed strike does.
B) No one said they didn't, you want a SAD melee character, play one, monks aren't it, never have been, and they day they become one will be a sad sad day.C) And in the early levels what is wrong with them using weapons anyway? Real world monks train with and use both, and by the time unarmed strike starts to equal up to weapon damage an AoMF is affordable.
D) So do most other magic items, I'm not sure what the issue is. Itemization is not how to fix monks, as any item a monk can use other classes can as well.
E) Yep, they do. Again, not sure what your point is here...
And please, show me where it says AoMF does not stack with Bodywraps. I looked, I don't seeit in the description for either item.
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If both the amulet and the bodywraps provide an enhancement bonus (and the bodywraps must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to add special properties), then the enhancement bonus does not stack. Same type means no go.
HOWEVER, if you have a +3 bodywraps (enhancement to attack and damage), and a holy amulet, that would stack. But only on the attacks you make with bodywraps (maximum of four). The rest of your attacks would be +0 holy.
EDIT: Sorry, posted too soon and left out a whole paragraph. The problem arises from the cost. If you want enhancement bonuses on your unarmed strikes (to boost attack rolls and bypass damage reduction), then the amulet already boosts EVERY unarmed strike you make. Using special properties on the bodywraps, in that case, effectively 'wastes' that first +1 you pay for and provides the special weapon property only on your allowed attacks with the bodywrap.
If you reverse it, and put the special weapon property on the amulet (which doesn't need a prior +1), then you gain the enhancement bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and to bypass damage reduction only on the attacks with the handwraps, although every attack you make benefits from the special weapon properties on the amulet.
It is really a very clunky, ill-thought out mechanic.
MA
Oh, I agree he doesn't have a clear role. But I think 3.0/.5/PF has kind of shattered that "big 4" method of play. The depowering of traps, expansion of healing, huge variety of ways to deal damage, and UMD has, in so many ways, altered the fighter/cleric/thief/wizard basis the game used to have.
Hardly. It makes it easier to get by without one of the roles rather than making the role itself redundant. You still need a hitter, a scout, magic utility and healing.
I do believe the monk needs to be better at unarmed combat (its their 'thing' if you will) but I am not so sure about needing to be the 'best'. They don't have the feat options and availability the fighter does, and that means from a purely mechanics point of view you can either add them in inherently to the monk, at which point why play a fighter if the monk does dpr better( and 2d10 with a fist vs 2d6 with a great sword...yeah, add in more attacks and the monk wins.)
It's not all about DPR, the fighter is also better at maneuvers (gets to add weapon training if he does the maneuver with a weapon) and everything else. The sole thing the monk gets is stunning fist, and that's next to useless of he cannot hit and cannot do damage through DR if he does.
I'd like the monk to be able to hit reasonably well, and be able to get through DR. If he can do that he is relevant again (and he can do decent maneuvers), even if he cannot match the fighter in DPR. Add it to his high AC and he could still beat an unarmed fighter by avoiding the fighters attacks and making his own count.
I would really like to see the monk get shifted closer to what they were. Hard to hurt, offense just a step behind a fighter, with a unique bag of useful tricks that makes them stand apart. And that last is where the monk falls flattest right now to me. It isn't an easy thing to point at one specific monk ability and go 'yeah, this falls flat' it is just an overall feel of their non-combat abilities. If they could fix those, I think we would see less complaints about the monk. I've got a revision I did of the monk sitting on my HD at home, I might see about throwing it up and posting it in the home brew forum after I get off work tonight.
Yep. The monk has no special tricks, he has nothing that another class cannot do better. It's not even as if he's a good generalist, because he isn't. Skills and other abilities are just too limited for that.
Monks could focus on Dexterity as well as an offensive stat, Weapon Fitness + Agile on an AoMF, so that argument really doesn't hold a lot of water. Add in a body wrap for use on the first 2-3 strikes at higher levels and all of a sudden its not as bad as your trying to make it seem.
So if you fork out 4x the cash requirement for a magic weapon and forego the monk's robe it works OK (at higher levels, at low levels before you get the agile enhancement you still suck)? Am I the only one who sees the problem here?
A) No, they don't get sneak attack. Enhancement bonuses will overcome DR, as does Ki Strike to some degree...Except
A) They won't do any damage, as they don't get sneak attack and still can't overcome Damage Reduction as enhancement bonuses to weapons can.
B) They still need Wisdom.
C) They can't afford the AoMF until several level after everyone else has a weapon of the same enhancement bonus.
D) AoMF takes a slot.
E) AoMF caps at +5The wrap doesn't stack with AoMF, so I have no idea what you mean about the rest.
Would this be the enhancement bonus they dropped by +1 to get Agile or the enhancement bonus they only get on half their attacks? And in both cases the enhancement bonus is going to lag behind that of other weapons thanks to cost and relying on agile.
...so don't make it out to sound worse than it is. Furthermore, there are plenty of feats and styles to add to what a monks unarmed strike does.
I'm sorry, but I have not found one that gives a monk better odds to hit and the ability to bypass DR, and those are the monk's two biggest problems. All the attacks in the world, all the damage boosts and that make absolutely no difference whatsoever if they miss or fail to do anything meaningful.
B) No one said they didn't, you want a SAD melee character, play one, monks aren't it, never have been, and they day they become one will be a sad sad day.
There is MAD and there is really MAD.
Paladins are MAD, they depend on two attributes, strength and charisma. Bang those two up and everything else can stay low, and they are still a functioning paladin. Con is a distant third, being able to self-heal combined with divine grace makes it unnecessary to pump it high.
Rangers are MAD, they need only one high stat, Dexterity for ranged or strength for melee, the other moderate and wisdom at a moderate level.
Monks are really MAD, because they need three high stats, not two. Wisdom has to be high for AC and monk abilities. Dexterity has to be high for AC (and hitting if they choose to go Finesse), Strength also high to hit and to inflict damage (cos they ain't getting around DR any other way).
I would not like to see monks become SAD, but it would be nice to reduce MAD to a reasonable level equivelant to that of other MAD classes. Wisdom bonus to hit with monk weapons would be one way to do that. Then you can hinge the class on wisdom, and while you still need strength for damage and dexterity for AC, you don't need to worry about ramping them through the roof just to function. You are at the ranger level of one good and two moderate scores.
C) And in the early levels what is wrong with them using weapons anyway? Real world monks train with and use both, and by the time unarmed strike starts to equal up to weapon damage an AoMF is affordable.
Since when has the real world been a valid guide for D&D? In the real worlds people do not survive 500' falls, summon elementals or snap their fingers to destroy battalions of orcs. Having a class that can use their bare hands as weapons of death is therefore not a great stretch in D&D.
The sad fact is that the monk is 2nd rate whether they use weapons or go unarmed. For weapons the enhancements are easier but monk weapons largely are 1d6 20/x2 - which is exactly where the unarmed strike starts, with only one exception. Even the temple sword is an also-ran weapon.
D) So do most other magic items, I'm not sure what the issue is.
Weapons don't is his point. The monk is designed to not use weapons, that's why stunning fist uses their unarmed strike. To use their stunning fist with a weapon requires it to have the ki-focus ability. So for a monk to really function with weapons they need an extra +1 bonus. It's like saying a paladin's smite can only work if they have a holy weapon, or that a ranger can only use his favoured enemy bonus with a bane weapon...
OK, I am hyperboling, but the point here is that to get equivalence with another class, the monk has to lose it elsewhere. They are in a no-win situation whichever way they go. Go armed, lose class features. Go unarmed, lose the ability to keep up with hitting and getting through DR.
This is why it is generally held that monks fight as well as a fallen paladin.
Itemization is not how to fix monks, as any item a monk can use other classes can as well.
Well if they made an item that could ONLY enhance unarmed strikes the monk would make the most out of it. I mean they make items that can only work with weapon training, items that only work with spells, I really do not see the problem here.
I do agree though, items are NOT the fix - items merely highlight the problem.
E) Yep, they do. Again, not sure what your point is here...
That if you spend +1 on agile you lose the ability to get +5 to hit ever, and that locks you out of ever bypassing some DRs. You can either hit, or you can get properties, but you can't do both. Again, this nerfs unarmed strikes down to being the least effective of weapons at high level.
And please, show me where it says AoMF does not stack with Bodywraps. I looked, I don't seeit in the description for either item.
They do. The enhancement bonuses do not stack but you can get enhancement on one and properties on the other to combine them. What I think Ciretose means is that the enhancement bonuses will not stack.
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Yep. No offence, Benchak, but as usual the standard response to monks being ineffective when fighting unarmed is "Well use a weapon then!" Am I the only person who thinks this is kind of underlining the point that the monk's primary weapon, unarmed strike, is in fact ineffective without a proper means of enhancement?
I mean yes, this is a great item for someone who uses fists-and-weapon, but that's very much a small niche, isn't it? Most monks will go either all-armed or all-unarmed, and this item is obsolete for either.
It has been a very small niche so far, but is that because no one wants to play that sort of character, or because until now playing that sort of character has been ridiculously expensive? I expect we'll see more of them now that it's viable equipment-wise.
And don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying anyone dissatisfied with fighting pure unarmed should just suck it up and use a weapon. Certainly I think there's room for improvement in the rules for that playstyle, especially when it comes to bypassing DR (which is why I wrote the singing bell of striking and prayer wheel of ethical strength for UE).
I'm just saying that this item isn't for those players, and shouldn't be judged based on its ability to fulfill their needs.
The problem is this item makes it harder to make an item that allows you to just fight with fists, and that is why people are angry about it.
Many players want to have an unarmed monk that can hit things competitively with other 3/4 BaB classes.
All of the other 3/4 BaB classes can either self buff with spells and/or abilities, or are able to focus on a skill that grows attack bonus (Rogue Dexterity).
This item makes fixing this problem impossible without obsoleting the item. I would argue this is not true of AoMF, since it still gets a full life as a Druid/Animal Companion item.
This item not only doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.
Poppycock! (sorry, I just don't get to use that word enough!)
A) Paizo's not going to make an item that 'allows' you to fight with just fists (or more accurately, they already made it, and they're not going replace it with something cheaper). They've said as much. Being upset that the wraps make it harder to do something that was never going to happen doesn't make much sense.
B) If Paizo does obsolete this item, it'll be by making changes to the monk class. That leaves the item still valuable to all the non-monks who fight with a weapon and unarmed or natural attacks--free hand fighters, toothy orcs, what have you.
C) At that point, if the item truly doesn't make sense anymore, they can errata it along with the monk. If they're already making drastic changes to the core rulebook (and any change that obsoletes the wraps will certainly be drastic), changing the wraps to fit isn't too big a deal by comparison.
And since you continue to stray into the general "unarmed monks need to hit more" debate, I think I'll call that my last word on the subject. I've been happy to discuss the wraps with you, but I've no desire to rehash the old monk arguments, especially since Ross asked us not to back on page one.
And don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying anyone dissatisfied with fighting pure unarmed should just suck it up and use a weapon. Certainly I think there's room for improvement in the rules for that playstyle, especially when it comes to bypassing DR (which is why I wrote the singing bell of striking and prayer wheel of ethical strength for UE).
These are two nice items I agree, if you know what you are facing and have the money to spare, and can prepare ahead of time. Sadly, most DMs like to keep players on their toes and using one of these after the enemy have jumped you is not an option. They help with getting past DR, if you have the cash.
And I will add to that, saying that fighting unarmed should suck begs the question of why make a class that specialises in fighting unarmed? If you make a class that specialises in doing something, they should be good at it if not the best.
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The Amulet of Mighty Fists is an item that fails in it's purpose.
The bonus is too expensive by WBL, caps at half what other weapons go to, and takes up a slot.
If someone would like to explain what horrible outcome would arise from monks being able to enchant unarmed attacks, I would be all ears. The math seems to show they would still be well behind the martial classes for damage.
I suspect it would only just catch them up with the other 3/4 BaB classes, and still keep them behind the rogue.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
The issue is this item demonstrates that the Devs seem to be afraid to allow unarmed attack bonus by monks to be reasonable relative to other weapons.
I have no idea why.
Because monks have on paper a great many abilities, and defensively oriented monk can have a killer AC. They don't want to make a class which has killer offence and killer defence. Other than the paladin, that is.
I can understand this, but it's misplaced. There's a difference between improving an underpowered class to make it viable and overpowering a class. I don't think ANY version of the monk with any set of feats, powers, or whatever, can be said to be overpowered. Most, if they manage to be good at one thing, manage to suck at several others.
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Because monks have on paper a great many abilities, and defensively oriented monk can have a killer AC. They don't want to make a class which has killer offence and killer defence. Other than the paladin, that is.
I can understand this, but it's misplaced. There's a difference between improving an underpowered class to make it viable and overpowering a class. I don't think ANY version of the monk with any set of feats, powers, or whatever, can be said to be overpowered. Most, if they manage to be good at one thing, manage to suck at several others.
They don't have those abilities in a single build.
They don't need "killer" offense. They need 3/4 BaB offense.
They are still a d8 class that has at least two other abilities more important than Con.
Schrodinger's Monk can do all things. Show me how it would break things to add this feature to any potential monk build, and I'll step back and say I am wrong.