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The episode "The Promise" was pretty good, but I'm here to talk about Diggle. I know that the upcoming episode "Suicide Squad" is going to be Diggle-centric, and that's great...but is it enough? I think Diggle is worth more that a couple of episodes a season. The rest of the time he is either getting his butt handed to him or he's playing the "Magical Negro" (an actual cinematic term). I'm starting to think that there just isn't a lot of room for his character as written. What I think they need to do is either 1) have him leave for a spin-off Suicide Squad series or 2) give him the superhero makeover in Arrow and have him standing right next to Oliver in more battles (and even on his own). If done right Diggle could join characters like Batgirl (first appearance was the 60's Batman TV show) and Harley Quinn (first appearance Batman Animated Series) who didn't start in the comics but carried over. I really like Diggle too much to see his character going to waste.
I think Diggle is fine where he is--he's a good character but I don't see him as one that needs to take the foreground any more often than he does. By his nature he's the guy who stands in the back and is quietly looking after everyone--narratively he's also often going to do the same thing. I think either emphasizing him more or taking him away entirely would be a mistake -- if the former, look, there's only so much you can do with a "rock" like character, he is designed to be support and if you try to make a support guy the focus, you're not going to sustain tension (the occasional highlight story on him as they do is fine). If the latter, the team loses their foundation, the solid earthy guy who keeps everyone else grounded, and then chaos ensues. The "problem" is just being the "earthy guy" you don't get a lot of plot focus. But IMO that's okay.
No, I think while sometimes there have been some episodes where his absence is inexplicable--which is likely due more to bad editing--and that is frustrating, usually they use him at about the right rate.
I see him growing to be more of a tactical manager amongst the group and continuing to be the cooler head amongst several hotheads (Oliver, Sara, Roy). I
Besides, the Suicide Squad episodes may be all about setting him up for a whole other arc.
I think Diggle is fine where he is--he's a good character but I don't see him as one that needs to take the foreground any more often than he does. By his nature he's the guy who stands in the back and is quietly looking after everyone--narratively he's also often going to do the same thing. I think either emphasizing him more or taking him away entirely would be a mistake -- if the former, look, there's only so much you can do with a "rock" like character, he is designed to be support and if you try to make a support guy the focus, you're not going to sustain tension (the occasional highlight story on him as they do is fine). If the latter, the team loses their foundation, the solid earthy guy who keeps everyone else grounded, and then chaos ensues. The "problem" is just being the "earthy guy" you don't get a lot of plot focus. But IMO that's okay.
No, I think while sometimes there have been some episodes where his absence is inexplicable--which is likely due more to bad editing--and that is frustrating, usually they use him at about the right rate.
I see him growing to be more of a tactical manager amongst the group and continuing to be the cooler head amongst several hotheads (Oliver, Sara, Roy). I
Besides, the Suicide Squad episodes may be all about setting him up for a whole other arc.
I'd rather not see the guy if he can't live up to his potential. He's starting to remind me of Angel from Buffy seasons 1-3. In those seasons Angel is supposed to be this badass vampire but because he wasn't supposed to over shadow Buffy he was constantly being held back. It was only when he got his own show that his true potential was let loose. And because I know Diggle himself has so much potential his current role isn't satisfying in the least. Hopefully the Suicide Squad episode will turn things around.
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Yeah, I gotta admit I preferred Diggle where he was at Arrow's inception, as Oliver's confidant, sorta moral compass type figure and they had a bunch of good moments working together and had conversations and stuff.
Now him and Ollie haven't even had a conversation of ANY sort all season if memory serves.
Geekgasm overload!
Arrow: Full Circle 3 minute extended trailer.
THAT WAS AWESOME.
Yeah, I gotta admit I preferred Diggle where he was at Arrow's inception, as Oliver's confidant, sorta moral compass type figure and they had a bunch of good moments working together and had conversations and stuff.
I feel like he still is that, so I guess I'm not feeling what is missing that you are. *shrug* Different POVs, I guess. Frankly, I don't find Diggle all that interesting (but I do want him to keep doing what he's doing), so my bias leans in another direction than yours and backfromthedeadguys.
Now him and Ollie haven't even had a conversation of ANY sort all season if memory serves.
I'm certain they have. I'm not going to go through every episode to check, but I know they had a conversation about Laurel in the episode "Blind Spot" because the name of the episode came from Diggle saying to Ollie (paraphrased), "She's your blind spot." I'm pretty sure they conversed in the Russia episode as well, and it seems like they've had a few chats elsewhere as well. Maybe briefer, maybe sometimes when Felicity's also been present, but that relationship has been maintained.
I believe we will see Harley Quinn in the next episode. If you watch the trailer for Suicide Squad they show someone who looks a lot like her in that cell with her back facing the door. I fanboy squee'd when I saw her!
I missed that the first time; she (a slight looking woman with messy blonde pigtails, seen only from the back, so yes, if she's supposed to be a DC character, Harley is a good guess) is in the shorter promo for people wanting to look. I'm not sure if she's going to be on the squad but she's in that A.R.G.U.S prison cell.
Oliver's dumber than a sack of hammers... and so is Slade.
Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know, that Mirakuru makes Slade all sorts of idiot. But still.
That whole Shado thing is just dumb, and entirely senseless. That's his villainy motivation? Lame. (And that doctor using his 'words' to confuse people was... not convincing. "You killed her by choosing the other!" Ummm... what?)
Oliver (the right answer): "Actually, I chose ME, dumbass. And what did you do then?"
Argh.
Matters of the heart muddle your head and all, especially in a tense situation like that.
Ever tried coming up with a witty comeback when someone's punching you in the face?
This is like that, but even harder.
Plus the impression I get is that the Mirakuru will focus on pretty much ANYTHING to twist your head into a psycho.
Eventually it would have been "You used the last of the jam! AAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!".
It can turn mild annoyance (as seen earlier when he attempted to choke Ollie out for saying something I don't recall as being particularly provocative) into unstoppable rage...imagine what it does to heartbreak.
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Arrow related:
"Full" picture of the Flash in his new suit.
Arrow related:
"Full" picture of the Flash in his new suit.
Looks great! I was dreading that they were going to put him in a red hoody.
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Write this down Arnwyn: I agree with you.
Matters of the heart muddle your head and all, especially in a tense situation like that.
Ever tried coming up with a witty comeback when someone's punching you in the face?
Oliver had a long time to think about it. A LONG time. He didn't, and it ended up stupid.
Plus the impression I get is that the Mirakuru will focus on pretty much ANYTHING to twist your head into a psycho.
Already covered in my post. Yet still unconvincing, and worse - lame. Mirakuru makes you an idiot? Ooooookay... that's not very interesting or fun to watch. Bad writing.
Now his entire arc and villainy motivation is sullied by this. A villain who has no coherent motivation whatsoever is the definition of uninteresting.
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Matters of the heart muddle your head and all, especially in a tense situation like that.
Ever tried coming up with a witty comeback when someone's punching you in the face?
Oliver had a long time to think about it. A LONG time. He didn't, and it ended up stupid.
Plus the impression I get is that the Mirakuru will focus on pretty much ANYTHING to twist your head into a psycho.Already covered in my post. Yet still unconvincing, and worse - lame. Mirakuru makes you an idiot? Ooooookay... that's not very interesting or fun to watch. Bad writing.
Now his entire arc and villainy motivation is sullied by this. A villain who has no coherent motivation whatsoever is the definition of uninteresting.
I don't get your complaint.
Slade is pissed off at Oliver because he chose Sara (who was working with the enemy for the last year) over the woman Slade loved and who had been a ally. And yes the Mirakuru would intensify his emotions (just like many real world drugs).And Ivo was simply grasping at straws and trying to blame the victim to cover his own guilt (which happens in the real world all the time). Is it twisted logic? Yes, because it comes from a twisted mind. Look at the Joker. Nothing he does makes a lick of sense to anybody but himself (and probably not even him). What makes someone insane is that they would interpret ideas in ways that sane people would never even consider, and then act on those ideas. We're not supposed to understand them, just accept and deal with them the best we can.
I don't get your complaint.
Huh. Fascinating.
*shrug* Fascinating again. If people think idiocy and silly/nonsensical motivation makes a villain on a TV show interesting, well, good on ya, I suppose.
Or, just maybe, people don't view it the same way you do Arnwyn. You know, different opinions and experiences and all that.
If you look at it from a neuro-psychological point of view it's not at all that far fetched. Certainly not when you add a non-existing "super drug" into the mix. This is a super hero show, after all.
Actual people have held just as irrational, to your mind, points of view/grudges for many more years.
Or, just maybe, people don't view it the same way you do Arnwyn. You know, different opinions and experiences and all that.
That I totally agree with. Hence, my original "Huh. Fascinating." post.
Actual people have held just as irrational, to your mind, points of view/grudges for many more years.
I also totally agree with that. I also believe it makes for a bad villain (and thus bad TV).
But make no mistake - no one (certainly not here) is going to convince me it's not a silly motivation that makes for bad TV. It wasn't Oliver's fault IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, and it's silly in every conceivable way to blame Oliver for some schmuck who murdered an unarmed person in cold blood, when Oliver was helpless and unarmed as well... unless Mirakuru turns you into a complete idiot. Which makes for a badly written and uninteresting villain. And, GentleGiant, the only defense I've seen is that 'Mirakuru does s@!! to your head'. Yeah... that's what I just said above already. And the fact that Oliver couldn't explain his way out of a wet paper bag when he had plenty of time to come up with a myriad of plausible explanations is also incredibly lame. And there is zero - zero - reason that Mirakuru-idiot would believe actual murdering nutbag over guy-he's-been-with-through-hell-and-back-for-over-a-year. (Other than bad writing and a desperate and weak attempt at giving this villain some kind of personal motivation.)
If someone doesn't "get" this complaint... well, color me amused. It's obvious, AFAIC. (I'm not saying people should agree, but understanding isn't a particularly big hurdle here - at least, not for every single person I know. Hence my fascination.)
But - I'm willing to drop this, if you guys are. I've said my piece. Stupid-as-hell motivation or not, I'm still greatly enjoying Mirakuru-Slade chew up the scenery with his "I'll make you suffer muhahahaa raspy voice look at me in my awesome suit".
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Just for what it's worth -- y'all are entitled to your opinion -- this is why I'm also a bit frustrated with the development of Slade's motivation....
- Slade's interest at ALL in Shado seemed to come out of nowhere. They meet, Shado and Oliver hook up, and suddenly one day for no apparent reason Slade stares at Shado longingly. And he never really does anything about it. I might have forgotten some key moment of characterization, but I remember very few interactions between Slade and Shado that showed any sort of real relationship there--in fact I think most conversations Slade and Shado had were about Oliver, not, say, about each other--just kind of a random and frankly shallow fascination. Then suddenly she's his One True Love. I don't really grab onto WHY he likes her, how she's touched him, what he sees in her other than the fact she's the only female on the island before Sara shows up.
- Not to mention, Slade IIRC mentions early on he has a wife and child at home. Where's she in all this? Why doesn't he give a s@!$ about her? Could be it wasn't a happy marriage or whatever, but it's never really covered.
- The way Slade found out about her death and decides to blame Oliver feels ridiculously forced. All someone had to say was, "Ivo had them all tied up, with guns pointed at Sara and Shado. They got into an argument, suddenly Ivo was about to shoot Sara, and when Oliver reflexively jumped in the way, he shot Shado." But they never give him the straight story, it's all deflection... and it's all deflection to force Slade to misinterpret.... and it makes no sense. It's plain old bad writing. Mind, dialogue quality has never been Arrow's strong point. But I hate it when there's an obvious wallbanger "why didn't you just say...?" and they never do...
- Shado seems to be treated more as a symbol of something than as a character. I don't feel like Slade actually respects her as a human being, he just treats her as an object for him and Ollie to fight over, and I can't understand or at least relate to that level of rage over an object.
- Slade seems a pretty badass guy with complex motivations. Ollie has f$~#ed up their chances of getting home a few times, and Slade has gotten hurt on Ollie's behalf several times. In fact, there's the very obvious fact that Slade technically died to protect Oliver when Oliver was doing something stupid. He can have any number of reasons for disliking Ollie that have been far better developed on the show, but for some inexpicable reason, "you let the girl I liked who I never did anything with or showed that I liked her until suddenly it was important to the plot die." And frankly, I'd respect it a lot more if his motivations were "You got me killed and exposed me to a dangerous experimental drug that now rules me," rather than "you were there when a female character was put into the proverbial refrigerator for me."
-- Yes the Mirakuru heightens emotions and especially rage but it also seems like a man who can very cleverly plan a plot to take over Starling City and have lots of money and do lots of things is someone who can also over several years be able to rationalize past GRR ARGH GIRL.
- Merlyn's motivation was also "my female SO is dead so I'm killing everything." Ivo's motivation is "my female SO is dead so now I'm torturing everything." Now they're just recycling the same damn plot with Slade. It's stupid, and it underserves men, villains, and male villains to be only able to give them the motivations of 1) girl in fridge or 2) sociopath (see: Sebastian Blood).
IF the story were written well, but it smacks heavily of very lazy writing that very heavily draws from very overused cliches, and they're neither being creative nor interesting with it. In fact it's very largely just the Merlyn plot entirely redone with a different actor, and with the focus on Ollie rather than the city as a whole (City killed my wife, Ollie killed my... girl I sort of knew and I stared at from a distance sometimes).
That said, I think it's fun to watch the fighty funtimes and I'll follow along for the fun of it, but this show does not write character depth or motivation well and I will never expect it to. It plays on cheap tropes to make the plot go, and people who are satisfied by cheap tropes will be happy with the acting, I'm happy with the pretty people and the fight choreography and the occasional awesome that accidentally happens from some of the characters like Quentin, Moira, or Sara.
It wasn't Oliver's fault IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, and it's silly in every conceivable way to blame Oliver for some schmuck who murdered an unarmed person in cold blood, when Oliver was helpless and unarmed as well...
WE know that. Slade wasn't there. Stir a huge heap of grief (loss of Shado) with a good dose of paranoia (including the fact that Sara, who used to work with Ivo, is still alive) and a shot of an unknown substance (Mirakuru) and I don't think it's inconceivable at all.
Now, you might think it cooks up a bad villain, but I think it actually shows a very human villain (with super powers/super strength).One could always argue that TV villains, especially in super hero shows, should be a bit over the top and maybe a caricature. I'd say we've seen plenty of those already, but a lot of them have also had a very human side to them (the Clock King wanted the money for his sister etc.).
I still think we have that here, with the masked version, Deathstroke, being the typical villain and Slade being the human side.
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DQ:
- Slade's interest at ALL in Shado seemed to come out of nowhere. They meet, Shado and Oliver hook up, and suddenly one day for no apparent reason Slade stares at Shado longingly. And he never really does anything about it. I might have forgotten some key moment of characterization, but I remember very few interactions between Slade and Shado that showed any sort of real relationship there--in fact I think most conversations Slade and Shado had were about Oliver, not, say, about each other--just kind of a random and frankly shallow fascination. Then suddenly she's his One True Love. I don't really grab onto WHY he likes her, how she's touched him, what he sees in her other than the fact she's the only female on the island before Sara shows up.
- Not to mention, Slade IIRC mentions early on he has a wife and child at home. Where's she in all this? Why doesn't he give a s$*# about her? Could be it wasn't a happy marriage or whatever, but it's never really covered.
I'm a little put off by this myself. I could see an explanation along the lines of "the Mirakuru screwed with his head so that now he remembers things differently and vows revenge" except for the point you bring up that Slade never seemed to care about Shado that way to begin with. His reaction to overhearing Ivo and Ollie's conversation in the moment is just completely wrong. From "we're like brothers" to "I'll send you to Hell" in 0.6 seconds; it makes no sense, Mirakuru or no.
- The way Slade found out about her death and decides to blame Oliver feels ridiculously forced. All someone had to say was, "Ivo had them all tied up, with guns pointed at Sara and Shado. They got into an argument, suddenly Ivo was about to shoot Sara, and when Oliver reflexively jumped in the way, he shot Shado." But they never give him the straight story, it's all deflection... and it's all deflection to force Slade to misinterpret.... and it makes no sense. It's plain old bad writing. Mind, dialogue quality has never been Arrow's strong point. But I hate it when there's an obvious wallbanger "why didn't you just say...?" and they never do...
I see this in romantic comedies (and similar TV situations) all the time.
Writer 1: "How are we going to make this plot last 2 hours (or 2 weeks, or whatever)?Writer 2 (or Writer 1 having internal monologue): I know! We'll go the whole time without the boyfriend (or falsely accused, or whatever) saying the one thing that any sane person would mention immediately!
I see it all the time, and it's bad writing, every time.
-- Yes the Mirakuru heightens emotions and especially rage but it also seems like a man who can very cleverly plan a plot to take over Starling City and have lots of money and do lots of things is someone who can also over several years be able to rationalize past GRR ARGH GIRL.
- Merlyn's motivation was also "my female SO is dead so I'm killing everything." Ivo's motivation is "my female SO is dead so now I'm torturing everything."
You do know this show is being aired on the CW, right? :P
I think that even part of what Arnwyn is saying is, in a way, the same thing most of us are: what's frustrating is not so much that Slade's motivations are nonsensical, it's that Slade's motivations should make sense, but don't.
I'm willing to give it leeway for a while; maybe they can focus on Felicity for a while. Does she remind anyone else of the character of Penelope from Criminal Minds (maybe somewhat less nerdy)?
I do know it's the CW -- and I'm willing to give a lot of slack for that. :) But even on the CW they are sometimes able to give villains more motivation than GIRL IN FRIDGE AM MAD. :)
What's frustrating are the moments where they really do seem to do some key moments of character development for some people... rather than just be moments of good writing, it just highlights all the times they handle things halfassed or hamfistedly.
I love this show dearly and there is a lot I'll put up with, it just strikes me as strange as Slade seems to be rather crucial and they kind of bungled this development a bit. I have to wonder if some stuff ended up on the cutting room floor as well.
CW? What is CW?
It's the TV channel which airs the show in the US.
Random negative comment of the week;
Did not like Slade's gaping eye-hole. Looked fake and weird (admittedly, I don't know what a gaping eye-hole is supposed to look like, but I would expect it to look less the inside of a grey ball of twine).
Normally you wouldn't leave the eye empty like that, but Slade is a different circumstance because of his healing abilities. His "socket" healed perfectly (not regenerating the eye of course) and he doesn't have to worry about infection. Plus, if you want to intimidate or gross out people, that's the way to do it.
I think I started squeeing at the "I'm a licensed therapist" line and didn't pay attention to the rest of the episode.
Actually, I really did, and it was a good episode, but oooooooooh yessssssssss.
I'm starting to root for everyone on this show but Ollie. The broody thing wears on me quickly. At least the Lance Sisters are shaking him out of it.
I thought it before and this episode confirms it: they need to start thinking about a Suicide Squad spin off.
I think I started squeeing at the "I'm a licensed therapist" line and didn't pay attention to the rest of the episodeMy DC-Fu is not great so I didn't understand that Easter Egg: who was that?
To those with at least some DC FU -- combined with the clip of the person speaking in the promo, about six seconds in here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3TSu6wMmCM... and if you look up the actress who voiced the line spoken....
Petite woman with blond pigtails who identifies herself, in a squeaky voice delivered by actress Tara Strong, as a therapist... AND in a Suicide Squad holding cell....
... it can only be Harley Quinn.
Matthew, I'm with you on Waller. My headcanon is that that woman isn't really Waller, but a decoy to act as a front person, while the real Waller, massive and ill tempered and AWESOME, is of course running things behind the scenes out of sight.
I have a feeling some of the Laurel stuff ended up on the cutting room floor, given the way the actors, writers, and producers talk about it... I think they filmed a bunch more stuff and we've only seen the highlights. I was watching the Season One DVD deleted scenes and there's a bunch of stuff where, while I can see why they deleted something for time or pacing, the deleted scene does add character development or depth that otherwise sometimes feels missing.... the problem with this season is they've been trying to do waaaaay do much so it's like we're seeing the clip show version of a plot that actually should be two or three seasons worth of story crammed into one.
I do like how fast they have kept things moving, since I thought dragging things out was one of Season 1's weaknesses
I totally agree with this - and if there has to be a trade-off between moving it along or getting stuck with some of those pace-affecting deleted scenes, then I'll take moving things along, no question. (Slowing things down would be severely detrimental to this show, AFAIC.) I choose that trade-off especially because there are shows that can move things along AND have good character development at the same time, so why can't Arrow? (Well, I know why, and it's not flattering so I'll leave it at that.)
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So Simon Tam, resident clever and untrustworthy explosives expert, dies off-screen in an explosion and we don't see the body.
It will be the most shocking and unexpected twist I've ever seen on network television if he's actually dead... :)
Also, Diggle has flashbacks? I thought only Ollie could have flashbacks, and they had to be all about 'the Island!' I'm all confused! Someone other than Ollie has backstory?
I thought the actress playing Waller did a great job. And I don't want to hear about how older incarnations of Waller were "big". I'm glad they went with the actress they have now. She's hot AND menacing.
Personally, I find her about as menacing as a teddy bear. It's not her looks per se (that she doesn't look like what Waller should look like IMO is another matter, even if it also bothers me. Also size aside, I don't care if she's hot, I certainly enjoy hot characters as the next person--and could watch Stephen Amell and Caity Lotz take turns on the salmon ladder all day--but that's not essential to her role. And I think enough with my brain and not my groin to not need hotness to be a quality in anyone to enjoy a performance or personality).
Anyway, regardless of her looks, I don't find her manner or line delivery menacing or authoritative or intimidating. She's just some lady with dumb ideas who any one of those crooks should have easily tripped and snapped her neck. And no character named Amanda Waller should EVER have a look of terror on her face, not even when discussing Deathstroke. That woman's superpower should be immunity to fear.
CCH Pounder is and always will be the only Amanda Waller in my eyes (and ears). That lady can weave a tight thread of meanacing gravel into her words that is just chilling and awesome.
