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House rules for Way of the Wicked


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Hello all,
Not sure if this is the best place to post house rules for a 3rd party PFRPG product, but I figured it's a start.

So, I've decided to try and run this AP as PbP on these boards, but with a slight twist. I'd like to make the characters stand out in comparison with the usual evil creatures/NPCs. I want to make their commitment to evil so deep and intrinsic, that the good guys will have no second thoughts about defeating them. To that end, I have come up with nothing more original than having each PC being consumed by one of the seven deadly sins.

What follows are the house rules I've come up with to reflect that corruption mechanically. Please take a look at them and leave feedback if you think they are bad in some way. Each sin has a boon and a penalty, and they are meant to weaken the characters in some way to make up for the large party. Here goes:

Pride:

Boon: You find inspiration in succeeding against impossible odds.
Any time you roll a natural 20 or confirm a critical hit, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: You feel devastated when you fail to overcome a challenge.
Any time you roll a natural 1, you are sickened for the next round.

Greed:

Boon: you find pleasure in hoarding valuable objects, even ones you can't find use for.
So long as you wear purely decorative jewelry, clothing, or other adornments worth at least 5% of your WBL, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws.
Penalty: you cannot bear parting with your possessions.
You are sickened for 1 round whenever you consume or give away an object worth at least 1% of WBL. If such an object is broken or taken from you by someone, you are forced to try and attack the offender in melee for 1 round.

Lust:

Boon: you can project your lustful urges upon others.
You gain a +2 on charisma-based checks when dealing with anyone who could potentially be attracted to you in any way. In addition, you gain the domain powers of the Lust domain as if you were a cleric of your level, based on your highest mental score.
Penalty: your impulse control leaves much to be desired.
You are vulnerable to mind-affecting effects. Whenever an effect grants a Will save, roll twice and take the worst result.

Envy:

Boon: you rejoice when you see others brought down.
Any time an ally or an enemy rolls a natural 1, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: the success of others fills you with loathing.
Any time an ally or an enemy confirms a critical hit or rolls a natural 20, you are sickened for the next round.

Gluttony:

Boon: you possess an uncanny ability to consume quickly and rapaciously.
You gain accelerated drinker and fortified drinker traits.
Penalty: normal-sized morsels always leave you hungry for the second helping.
Treat normal food and drink, as well as any consumable, as a drug that causes a normal addiction. Eating double portion of the meal or using two identical consumables in a row prevents the effect. Using a different consumable resets the effect.

Wrath:

Boon: death and suffering of others empowers you.
Whenever you deliver a killing blow, confirm a crit, deal ability damage, bleed or precision damage, you gain the effects of rage as the spell using your character level as the caster level.
Penalty: you cannot stay calm under stress.
Whenever you are unable to attack an enemy in combat, you are confused for one round.

Sloth:

Boon: you excel at making others do your bidding.
You gain +1 to caster level of conjuration and enchantment spells, and +2 to Charisma-based checks when bargaining or directing controlled creatures. You also gain an extra Will save against any spells that force you to perform actions against your will, including ones that normally don't allow saves.
Penalty: exertion finds you much quicker than normal.
Whenever you do a full-round action, or move and standard action in the same round, you are fatigued. If you are already fatigued, you become exhausted. If you are already exhausted, you become stunned. Spending a round doing nothing but free actions makes you immune to this effect for 1 round. Spending two rounds doing nothing but free actions cures one step of the condition. In addition, you automatically fail saves to become fatigued or exhausted.

Once I gather some feedback and refine this idea (or dump it altogether), I'll open a proper recruitment thread.
Much cheers to you all.

Star Voter 2014

Brilliant, I love it!
I have an ongoing campaign for more than a year where the 7 deadly sins play an important part. These are great ideas for my own homebrew.

Sorry, nothing to add, except to say thanks for the great idea!


This gives me ideas for my Evil Tiefling Wizard if I ever get to rolling a Way of the Wicked game.

Thanks!


Wow, Wrath is harsh if you allow the effects to compound. If I babble or attack myself, am I confused the next round too since I didn't make an attack? I assume if I attack nearest creature, then I avoid the confusion next round, so I avoid the confusion spiral of death.

I'm sure you'll get tons of applicants for a WotW game, though.


No, I didn't intend the confusion spiral. After 1 round the confusion ends no matter the outcome, and the tracker starts again. Is it too soft this way then? :)

Dedicated Voter 2013

Cool concept, I'll definately be applying for your game.

Let me mull it over and get back to you.


Wow! That is very cool. I like the Golarion Thassilonian sin specialists and this looks like an interesting and flavorful add-on to that.

At a glance, some of the sins listed seem like they would have more of an effect (good or ill) for non-spellcasters (and Wrath could actually be detrimental to a caster with the Rage aspect). I'll go through it more and let you know of anything else I come up with.


Thanks for the positive feedback so far, it is reassuring!

I definitely agree that some sins are biased towards casters and others towards melee. I couldn't come up with a reasonably universal bonus/penalty for every sin, but I tried to stay within common sense. E.g. it is hard to imagine a successful fighter or barbarian overcome by sloth, or a cleric or wizard that gives in to wrath easily. Although I suppose it's different for Sorcerers and Oracles... I'll try and think this over some more.


Cool concept...but like Dark Netwerk, I'm a little worried that these are a bit....class specific.

Wrath is a perfect example -- surely a wizard can be wrathful but with the boons and busts listed like that, you really can only have a melee be competently wrathful (unless you perhaps tweak the meaning to mean 'perform an offensive action' but then what wouldn't count as an offensive action?)

Now, I grant that you may well have designed them with particular classes in mind...but if that is true, then you're essentially limiting the choices of the players who might have a sick idea for a character of a particular sin but are now forced to abandon the concept on the grounds that particular sin's mechanic doesn't work with their conceived character (like a rage wizard).

And I also worry that some of them are a bit unbalanced. Lust, for example. A + 2 on Charisma based checks against persons who are potentially attracted too you and the lust domain power at a cost of re-rolling every will save and taking the lower result? Mildly amusing perk and flavour with probably no real epic game-changing consequences at a terrible potentially game changing for the worse cost? Perhaps restrict the scope on the penalty to against 'enchantments'? Or make the boon something stronger...

EDIT: This reply was started before you clarified your stance re class specifics...so apologies if you feel you've already addressed that issue.

Dedicated Voter 2013

First thought; Awesome!

Second thought; Maybe the boons/penalties are somewhat unbalanced.

Third thought; WOW! All the penalties outweigh the boons IMO, this smells killer DM to me. If that's what you're going for then cool, rock on! If not you might concider bringing the penalties down a notch.

Pride: A trade off of 1 against 1 would make more sense. +1 vs. -1 instead of gaining the sickened condition (-2). Seems more balanced even though someone focusing on critical hits would benefit from this most often.

Greed; I don't like effects that take control away from the PC, maybe bringing the effect down a notch to 'You feel compelled to exact vengence on the offender either by harming him physicaly or mentaly for 1 round, taking an item of equal or more worth from him or forcing him somehow to do something against his will, if you are unable or unwilling to exact your vengence on the offender then you suffer a -1 moral penalty to attack and damage rolls as well as all ability checks for 1 round (or x rounds for value of item maybe?.)

Lust; Rolling twice for anything and taking the worse result for anything is a curse effect, plain and simple, and on all will saves? Seriously?. I'd suggest a flat penalty to mind-effects instead maybe -2.

Envy; See Pride.

Gluttony: Pretty cool in fact.

Wrath; I dunno, feels like a curse to me. Sometimes you need to run away to stay alive. If you run with this thing you get a 75% chance of not being able to..

Sloth; I'd suggest you nerf the +1 caster level to summoning spells and the charisma bonus to +1 and stop the penalty at exhausted.

All in all; Realy cool but you might want to concider how it will dominate your game.

/2 cp.


remember that wrath can also be defined as Revenge as opposed to rage.

also some of the quick looks I did some of the drawbacks could also be more detrimental than the benifit gained (meaning the ill effect would come up more frequently than the benefit (possibly to the point where the character would actually be a hinderance on the party.)

example:
sloth: conjuration spells (many) are full round actions casting time. a simple touch of fatigue spell can render him out of action when coupled with the character performing actions. the auto failed save makes him fatigued then cast a spell exhausted now he can't run or charge and takes -6 to strength and dex (-3 to AC) and can only move half speed. enemy fighter has field day on him.

wrath: this is the only sin that can actually inflict damage to the character. and yes it lasts for 1 round then the tracker starts again. so round 1 no attack then confused, round 2 confused action (enemy sees this and withdraws, round 3 no attack (not in range), round 4 confused.
this will also prevent chasing down the opponent. enemy runs away party gives chase except the wrath person he has to be confused every other round.

gluttony: realisticlly this will have very little game effect. its all about food will they be the only player that must track rations?

Greed: at low levels not much of a problem but the higher levels? level 15 equates to 12,000 gold at low levels (level 2) the 1% is 10 gold the drawback says consume. thus drink a potion sickened, use a scroll sickened. heck eat your dinner you could be sickened (depending on how much you eat).

Pride, Lust, Envy all seem good as written.

overall the concept is great just some tweeking so that the negative effect isn't more prevailant than the positive. need to have an even mix.

these just some inital thoughts and is not meant to discourage nor critisize the idea.


The penalties outweigh the boons intentionally. These are sins and sins make you weaker. On the other hand, the boons stack with everything. So the idea was that picking a sin which synergizes with some other abilities would make your character better at something, but with a specific, important weakness. Then the character will have to dedicate part of their resources to overcome the weakness. Don't forget that I plan to have seven characters with minimal adjustments to the overall challenge.

I am not a killer DM, more like inexperienced and I haven't fully set on how much of a burden I want these sins to be. I want them to be noticeable, but not crippling. +1 vs -2 looks to be roughly the effect I'm aiming for, but it's hard to achieve the same result thematically with everything.

Wrath and Lust are prime candidates for revision so far. Greed might need slight tweaking too.

Very insightful thoughts, keep'em coming!


Sloth could be a tough one. Even for a summoning caster class that isn't a summoner (since Summon spells require a full round action). Then again, the fatigue only gives them a hit for AC and ranged touch attacks, so likely not that big of a big deal. For the combat-oriented Sloth-ites, they could concentrate their Feats and abilities for the single standard action devastating blow (such as Vital Strike) or special attacks vs. multiple opponents (like the Cleave series of feats). Then again, getting to the opponent and then attacking would trigger the effect. Maybe if it occurred on the second round of full-action?

For spell-casters in the other sins, you could always give them a CL bonus with their associated school spells (so move Enchantment to Lust, Wrath gets Evocation, Gluttony gets Necromancy, etc.).

For the bonuses, you could always take some inspiration from the RotRL content.

For example, when in the areas around the Runeforge characters gain a bonus (+1 skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws) or receive a penalty (-2 skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws) when in an area that reflects or opposes their sin. It looks like you've done something similar to what you've already done with Pride, Greed, and Envy.

There might be stuff in the Shattered Star adventure path too, since it deals with such things, but I don't have that one.

To alleviate the concerns of balance, perhaps make the bonuses and penalties the same across all Sins. So, for example the boon for each Sin-related activity could be +1 CL to related school and a +1 bonus to any skill check, attack roll or saving throw. The bane would be -1 CL for all schools and a -2 to skill checks, attack rolls or saving throws.

I'm good with the -2s, although you may need to tweak the actions that activate them a bit.


Does the Lust penalty also apply to fear spells? Charms and such make sense to me (Live by it, die by it) but fear isn't desire so I'm not sure it should apply.


Suggestions on penalties:

Pride: Maybe Shaken and non-stackable with other fear effects would be a more appropriate penalty?

Greed: Instead of attacking in melee perhaps you are forced to take a hostile action that will show results within 1 round. Like say hitting them for any kind of damage, one of the debilities, or a save or die spell?

Lust: Change rerolls to Charm/Compulsion effects and Diplomacy/Bluff and I think we have a winner.

Envy: See pride

Glutony: Looks good, can't see any balance problems or anything like that without playtesting.

Wrath: Instead of the Rage effect maybe one round of a Bless equivalent, and instead of the confusion maybe shaken?

Sloth: Maybe instead of Fatigue halve rounding down any bonuses from morale, due to a lack of motivation?

just my 2 cp.


Pride-I like it

Greed-The bonus is cheap at low levels, but becomes more expensive later on, to the point where it is not worth trying to keep it up. Yeah a player could just stop trying to support it, but IMHO that is not good RP, and it just gaming the system. I also don'tlike the auto attack penalty, but I was once told that one should not complain if they don't have a counter-solution

Boon:You get a +2 to any check such as appraise or spellcraft that is used to find the value of an item or the properties it possess

Penalty:You are sickened for 1 round whenever you consume or give away an object worth at least 1% of WBL. If such an object is broken or taken from you by someone, you take a -2 morale based penalty to all D20 rolls for 2 rounds

Lust-The penalty is too steep.
My suggestion: You mind is always filled with carnal desires, and they often distract you from seeing other people's true motives, and the dangers around you. You take a -2 penalty to all sense motive checks, and -2 penalty against any illusion based saves.

Envy
I think this should apply to an enemy “or” the ally, not both.

Gluttony: The penalty seems severe. Maybe putting a time limit on the addiction might help

Wrath:The penalty is too steep.
When in combat you wish to see others suffer, preferably at your hands. If you are unable to harm an enemy for 2 consecutive rounds you take a take a -1 penalty to your AC and your saves. Every additional round the penalty increases by one until you are able to attack someone.

Note:You do not need to land an attack. You just need to be able to make the attempt.

Example:If the enemy is flying and you have no bow, of if the enemy is invisible, and you can not find them, that would be enough.

Sloth's is also too heavy on penalties. I also think the extra will save is a bit much.

Boon: I would drop the extra will save.

Penalty: If you attempt to use diplomacy, bluff, intimidate or any enchantment spell against someone, and it fails to work then you begin to take a -2 to charisma related skills checks for the next hour, and and enchantment spells suffer a -1 penalty to caster level for this duration also. Planar binding and gate, receive a -2 to all charisma checks you have related to those spell.

PS:I have not read anyone else's suggestions yet so I might make a 2nd post.


Also, it occurs to me that Oracles who take the lame curse would be basically immune to the downside of Sloth as of level 5 (because their curse makes them immune to the fatigue condition). Since they're CHA based casters and can easily be made into evil demonic summoning types...Basically they get some pretty awesome win at basically no cost.

I mean...build a summoning Oracle and then take the Diabolist PRC...That's a +8 CHA bonus to negotiating with devils...that is pretty disgusting, imo.


I also don't like wrath because you might attack a fellow party member. Being evil and what not there is not real reason to not kill you. This reminds me to a small extent of the frenzied beserker issue in 3.5.

Dedicated Voter 2013

I thought you meant for this to be either trait or moral bonuses, if you mean for them to stack with everything then that explains why the penalties are double the bonuses.

How 'bout this:

Pride (Unchanged):
Boon: You find inspiration in succeeding against impossible odds.
Any time you roll a natural 20 or confirm a critical hit, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: You feel devastated when you fail to overcome a challenge.
Any time you roll a natural 1, you are sickened for the next round.

Lust:
Boon: you can project your lustful urges upon others.
You gain a +2 on charisma-based checks when dealing with anyone who could potentially be attracted to you in any way. In addition, you gain the domain powers of the Lust domain as if you were a cleric of your level, based on your highest mental score.
Penalty: your impulse control leaves much to be desired.
You are vulnerable to mind-affecting effects and recieve a -4 penalty on saves vs. such spells and effects.

Envy (Unchanged):
Boon: you rejoice when you see others brought down.
Any time an ally or an enemy rolls a natural 1, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: the success of others fills you with loathing.
Any time an ally or an enemy confirms a critical hit or rolls a natural 20, you are sickened for the next round.

Gluttonu (Unchanged):
Boon: you possess an uncanny ability to consume quickly and rapaciously.
You gain accelerated drinker and fortified drinker traits.
Penalty: normal-sized morsels always leave you hungry for the second helping.
Treat normal food and drink, as well as any consumable, as a drug that causes a normal addiction. Eating double portion of the meal or using two identical consumables in a row prevents the effect. Using a different consumable resets the effect.

Wrath:
Boon: death and suffering of others empowers you.
Whenever you deliver a killing blow, confirm a crit, deal ability damage, bleed or precision damage, you gain the effects of aid as the spell using your character level as the caster level.
Penalty: You cannot stay calm under stress.
Whenever you are unable to take aggressive action against an enemy in combat you're mind clouds with doubt and you suffer the effects of the bane spell with you're character level as the caster level cumulative to a -3 penalty after 3 rounds of non-aggressive action.

Sloth:
Boon: you excel at making others do your bidding.
You gain +1 to caster level on summoning and compulsion spells, and +2 to Charisma-based checks when bargaining or directing controlled creatures. You also gain +2 Will save against any spells that force you to perform actions against your will and are allowed a save vs. ones that normally don't allow saves.
Penalty: Exertion finds you much quicker than normal.
Whenever you do a full-round action, or move and standard action in the same round for 2 concecutive rounds you are fatigued. If you are already fatigued, you become exhausted. Spending a round doing nothing but free actions makes you immune to this effect for 1 round. Spending two rounds doing nothing but free actions cures one step of the condition. In addition, you recieve a -3 penalty to saves vs. becoming fatigued or exhausted.


First bunch of tweaks:
Greed:
bonus - to get it at first level, you have to wear decorative valuables worth 50gp. At each next level, the amount increases by 50gp times your new level, to 150gp at level2, 300 gp at level 3 and so on, to a total of 10500gp at level 20.
penalty - whenever you must part with an item worth half as much, you are sickened for 1 round. Whenever such an item is taken away, you must immediately attempt to take it back by any means available or become nauseated for 1 round. You gain a +2 bonus on any rolls or checks made as part of that one action. If your attempt fails, you are sickened for one round.

Wrath:
bonus: Whenever you deliver a killing blow, confirm a crit, deal ability damage, bleed or precision damage, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
penalty: Whenever you willingly waive an opportunity to attack an enemy in range (such as engaging in parley, hiding in cover or running away), you are sickened for 1 round.

Edit: sorry Sigz, you ninja'ed me, will read your suggestions now.

Quick question - does ability check bonus apply to spell DCs? If not, I think I need to include it everywhere to make casters happy.


I like your version of Sloth Sigz, with one minor correction that save against spells which normally don't allow it should be without the +2 bonus. And I also like the idea of Sloth being resistant to morale bonuses, so I'd word it something like this:

Boon: you excel at making others do your bidding.
You gain +1 to caster level on summoning and compulsion spells, and +2 to Charisma-based checks when bargaining or directing controlled creatures. You also gain +2 Will save against any compulsion or emotion spells and are allowed a save (without the bonus) vs. ones that normally don't allow saves.
Penalty: Exertion finds you much quicker than normal.
Whenever you do a full-round action, or move and standard action in the same round for 2 concecutive rounds you are fatigued. If you are already fatigued, you become exhausted. Spending a round doing nothing but free actions makes you immune to this effect for 1 round. Spending two rounds doing nothing but free actions cures one step of the condition. In addition, any morale or emotion-based bonuses affecting you are halved and rounded down, to a minimum of 0.

Lust: I would broaden the penalty to all enchantment(charm, emotion and compulsion) effects, not just mind-affecting. Because fear is also mind-affecting, but it's necromancy.


Alternative version of Gluttony without the addiction mechanics could be as follows:
Boon: By spending a full-round action, you can consume two identical items which you possess in rapid succession. This allows you to treat the effect as if it was enhanced by a metamagic feat with a level increase of +1 of your choice. You also get a +2 to saving throws vs. becoming sickened or nauseated.
Penalty: single doses of consumables only have half effect on you, rounded down to a minimum of 0.


Ability checks don't affect DCs.

My perspective is coloured by the Thassilonians. As such, although I can see the idea, I'm a little wary about giving Sloth a bonus to something that falls under Lust in terms of the Thassilonian sin magic.

From Thassilonian specialist:
Lust (Magically controlling other creatures to satisfy your desires, and manipulating others' minds, emotions, and wills.) is Enchantment opposed by Necromancy (Gluttony) and Transmutation (Greed), while Sloth (Calling agents and minions to perform your deeds for you, or creating what you need as you need it.) is Conjuration opposed by Evocation (Wrath) and Illusion (Pride).

I know the concept you're putting together and the Thassilonian sins are not necessarily aligned, but I'd rather not choose Sloth for a Lust specialist to get the extra caster level (although I guess CL isn't necessarily as important as DC in these cases).

And -4 against Enchantment effects all the time is a pretty large penalty whereas the penalty for others is something akin to -2 to all saves (from sickened) for only 1 round after a potentially rare occurrence.


That -4 equals "auto avoid". Since many of the characters will be evil they will most likely be able to build around more than one sin. I understand you want the penalties to mean something, but if the penalty is too heavy that sin will be avoided. This is a RP game, and that will factor into the decision, but mechanics will also.


To stick with the same vein as the initial/current penalty vs spells/effects, you could make it a penalty vs. those with the "emotion" descriptor as that fits with the theme. The -4 might still be a bit high though.

Alternatively, if there was a way to quantify "lustful urges" or impulsivity one could try to make it so that you become sickened if you resist following said urges. I can't think of much offhand though. Something related could be being more prone to addictions and the like. Perhaps starting the game with one (something cheap and not deadly, of course).

Or, along the same vein as some of the demonic obediances, there is some act that must be performed each day to receive the boon and receive the bane if not performed (or the bane/penalty, is just the price to pay for the focus on the sin).


Mr. Swagger - point taken and that +2 vs -4 is better served as +1 vs -2. That said, I don't envision characters taking more than one sin mechanically, though I probably won't stop it.

Dark Netwerk - sorry, I don't see why I should stick to the Thassilonian descriptions when the AP isn't even strictly set in Golarion. Then I would need to give every sin a boost to a spell school, which I don't want to do. Enchantment has two main subschools - charm and compulsion. While charm definitely falls under lust, I find that compulsion also makes sense for sloth.


No need to stick to the Thassilonian jazz. I was more suggesting you could look there for some inspiration, although looking back at my post, it may have been a bit more absolute than intended. Apologies.

I do find the idea quite cool and the sins being refined quite well. I can't wait to see them in action.

Hmm, characters could take more than one sin? I guess it might depend on the benefits vs. pitfalls of the various combinations. I wonder if someone will try a 'sin-lord' and choose all of them, lol.

As an aside, I hear there may be a free feat for this AP. Why not include some Sin-related feats (like SGG's 7 Sinful Feat's of..., although they only have two of the sins done). Then again, maybe the good work putting together this sin benefit/penalty series is more than enough.


I will post the current sin versions. GM correct me if I get them wrong.

Pride:

Boon: You find inspiration in succeeding against impossible odds.
Any time you roll a natural 20 or confirm a critical hit, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.

Penalty: You feel devastated when you fail to overcome a challenge.
Any time you roll a natural 1, you are sickened for the next round.

Greed:

Boon: you find pleasure in hoarding valuable objects, even ones you can't find use for.
So long as you wear purely decorative jewelry, clothing, or other adornments worth to get it at first level, you have to wear decorative valuables worth 50gp. At each next level, the amount increases by 50gp times your new level, to 150gp at level2, 300 gp at level 3 and so on, to a total of 10500gp at level 20 you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws.

Penalty: you cannot bear parting with your possessions.
whenever you must part with an item worth half as much, you are sickened for 1 round. Whenever such an item is taken away, you must immediately attempt to take it back by any means available or become nauseated for 1 round. You gain a +2 bonus on any rolls or checks made as part of that one action. If your attempt fails, you are sickened for one round.

Lust:

Boon: you can project your lustful urges upon others.
You gain a +1 on charisma-based checks when dealing with anyone who could potentially be attracted to you in any way. In addition, you gain the domain powers of the Lust domain as if you were a cleric of your level, based on your highest mental score.

Penalty: your impulse control leaves much to be desired.
You are vulnerable to enchantment(charm, emotion and compulsion). Whenever an effect grants a Will save, you have a -2 penalty.

Envy:

Boon: you rejoice when you see others brought down.
Any time an ally or an enemy rolls a natural 1, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.

Penalty: the success of others fills you with loathing.
Any time an ally or an enemy confirms a critical hit or rolls a natural 20, you are sickened for the next round.

Gluttony:

Boon: you possess an uncanny ability to consume quickly and rapaciously.
You gain accelerated drinker and fortified drinker traits.
Penalty: normal-sized morsels always leave you hungry for the second helping.

Penalty:Treat normal food and drink, as well as any consumable, as a drug that causes a normal addiction. Eating double portion of the meal or using two identical consumables in a row prevents the effect. Using a different consumable resets the effect.

Wrath:

Boon: death and suffering of others empowers you.
Whenever you deliver a killing blow, confirm a crit, deal ability damage, bleed or precision damage, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.

Penalty: you cannot stay calm under stress.
Whenever you willingly waive an opportunity to attack an enemy in range (such as engaging in parley, hiding in cover or running away), you are sickened for 1 round.

Sloth
Boon: you excel at making others do your bidding.
You gain +1 to caster level on summoning and compulsion spells, and +2 to Charisma-based checks when bargaining or directing controlled creatures. You also gain +2 Will save against any compulsion or emotion spells and are allowed a save (without the bonus) vs. ones that normally don't allow saves.

Penalty: exertion finds you much quicker than normal.
Whenever you do a full-round action, or move and standard action in the same round for 2 consecutive rounds you are fatigued. If you are already fatigued, you become exhausted. Spending a round doing nothing but free actions makes you immune to this effect for 1 round. Spending two rounds doing nothing but free actions cures one step of the condition. In addition, any morale or emotion-based bonuses affecting you are halved and rounded down, to a minimum of 0.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why is this in the d20 forums? This is a houserule for a Pathfinder Adventure Path.


I think the Pathfinder AP area is for "official" AP's.
Don't quote me on that.
This AP was made under the OGL so it I guess that is why it is here.


Yes, exactly what wraithstrike said. I don't mind if the mods decide to move it.

Mr. Swagger - thanks for that, I planned to do it yesterday but didn't have enough time.

Dedicated Voter 2013

Greed: The alternate version of Greed has a much better feel IMO.

Sloth: How about moral penalties? How are the panalties from fear and bane f.ex. defined? I'm gona check. But I feel the moral clause is unnecesary but if there's a penalty to moral bonuses (wich should be min 1 IMO) then a resistance to moral penalties should be in there somewhere. Anyway, gona check out moral penalties...

Dedicated Voter 2013

Bane is an undefined penalty though it counters bless wich is defined as moral.

Dedicated Voter 2013

*snikers* Suddenly had a vision of a group made with these rules, all dressed in black they'd all be twitchy as heck, sweating profusely and somebody retching or sighing in every sceen...


I think that the Sloth resistance to morale penalties is covered with the bonus to saves against the emotion spells which give them. This bonus also applies to stuff such as fear - you are just too lazy to give a damn. *giggles*

Also, I wouldn't say that the sickened condition always implies retching... I always thought that the state in which the person devotes all their willpower to cope with an overwhelming emotion, such as rage or grief or desire, can also be described as sickened. (Though it's entirely possible that I fail in English). Consider this just a shorthand name for all the penalties you get.

Having taken another look today, I'm quite happy with how those turned out. Unless someone has a last-minute reason why a certain sin would be unplayable, I am probably going to start recruiting tomorrow. Many thanks to those who helped me here, I will take that into account :)

Dedicated Voter 2013

Any chance you'd post a last summary for a fianal overview or is MR. Swagger's compilement accurate?


They're looking good. Any reaction I have of a Boon being too powerful or too weak is countered by the similarly powerful/weak penalty. They seem quite appropriate.

I'm having difficulty deciding which one I would want to go for, which is a good thing.


It is mostly accurate.

I am going to use the alternative version of Gluttony as it's simpler to track, with a slight change. And also I will slightly change the wording of the Wrath penalty. So here are the final versions:

Pride:

Boon: You find inspiration in succeeding against impossible odds.
Any time you roll a natural 20 or confirm a critical hit, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: You feel devastated when you fail to overcome a challenge.
Any time you roll a natural 1, you are sickened for the next round.

Greed:

Boon: you find pleasure in hoarding valuable objects, even ones you can't find use for.
So long as you wear purely decorative jewelry, clothing, or other adornments worth to get it at first level, you have to wear decorative valuables worth 50gp. At each next level, the amount increases by 50gp times your new level, to 150gp at level2, 300 gp at level 3 and so on, to a total of 10500gp at level 20 you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws.
Penalty: you cannot bear parting with your possessions.
whenever you must part with an item worth half as much, you are sickened for 1 round. Whenever such an item is taken away, you must immediately attempt to take it back by any means available or become nauseated for 1 round. You gain a +2 bonus on any rolls or checks made as part of that one action. If your attempt fails, you are sickened for one round.

Lust:

Boon: you can project your lustful urges upon others.
You gain a +1 on charisma-based checks when dealing with anyone who could potentially be attracted to you in any way. In addition, you gain the domain powers of the Lust domain as if you were a cleric of your level, based on your highest mental score.
Penalty: your impulse control leaves much to be desired.
You are vulnerable to enchantment(charm, emotion and compulsion). Whenever an effect grants a Will save, you have a -2 penalty.

Envy:

Boon: you rejoice when you see others brought down.
Any time an ally or an enemy rolls a natural 1, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: the success of others fills you with loathing.
Any time an ally or an enemy confirms a critical hit or rolls a natural 20, you are sickened for the next round.

Gluttony:

Boon: you possess an uncanny ability to consume quickly and rapaciously.
By spending a full-round action, you can consume two identical items which you possess in rapid succession. This allows you to treat the effect as if it was enhanced by a metamagic feat with a level increase of +1 of your choice. You also get a +1 to saving throws vs. becoming sickened or nauseated.
Penalty: normal-sized morsels always leave you hungry for the second helping.
Single doses of consumables only have half effect on you, rounded down to a minimum of 0. You also get a -2 penalty against checks vs. hunger, thirst or addiction.

Wrath:

Boon: death and suffering of others empowers you.
Whenever you deliver a killing blow, confirm a crit, deal ability damage, bleed or precision damage, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: you cannot stay calm under stress.
Each round you willingly waive an opportunity to attack an enemy in range (such as engaging in parley, hiding in cover or running away), you are sickened. The condition goes away after you take a hostile action or the combat ends.

Sloth:

Boon: you excel at making others do your bidding.
You gain +1 to caster level on summoning and compulsion spells, and +2 to Charisma-based checks when bargaining or directing controlled creatures. You also gain +2 Will save against any compulsion or emotion spells and are allowed a save (without the bonus) vs. ones that normally don't allow saves.
Penalty: exertion finds you much quicker than normal.
Whenever you do a full-round action, or move and standard action in the same round for 2 consecutive rounds you are fatigued. If you are already fatigued, you become exhausted. Spending a round doing nothing but free actions makes you immune to this effect for 1 round. Spending two rounds doing nothing but free actions cures one step of the condition. In addition, any morale or emotion-based bonuses affecting you are halved and rounded down, to a minimum of 0.

Dedicated Voter 2013

Awesome, can't wait.


Hey DM Flykiller,

Your house rules are very cool and interesting. What a unique take on "Way of the Wicked".

A few comments.

For Envy, I would specify non-minions.

Spoiler:
Some of the fights of this campaign happen in the context of great battles. Surely the actions of the underlings do not invoke your envy. Instead it is only when the PC allies or enemies of roughly the same power level succeed or fail that effects you.

For Sloth, I would note your exhaustion removal rules are at odds with the core rules. Are slothful characters actually better at recovering from exhaustion than normal characters? To me that seems odd.

I am interested in how Sloth would play out. It seems like a real game changer for summoners.

Anyways, keep up the good work and I will definitely be following your game.

Game on, my friend!

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Dedicated Voter 2013

hmm. Maybe we need to refine this a bit more?


For envy I would also suggest a slight change. For the part concerning critical threats I would change it to critical threats confirmed when the critting roll was a nat 20. If one of us builds a high crit character(crit range 15-20) that would really hurt the person with envy since they would be in trouble every time we rolled a 15 at higher levels, and every time anyone else including an enemy had did the same. That does not even include the nat 20's that may come up.

PS:If I get picked I will be twf'ing most likely, so if the GM does not alter it you have been warned. :)

PS2:Wraithstrike is my other avatar. I just forget to switch over before I posted.

Dedicated Voter 2013

How about ruling that the recovery mechanism for sloth only funtions on fatigue and exhaustion caused from taking actions?

Or a different approach:

Sloth::

Boon: Same as above.
Penalty: You find it hard to motivate yourself and you tire more easily than most.
You only gain half the benifit from moral effects (minimum 0) though you take the full penalties from such effects. You also take a -2 penalty on saving throws to resist fatigue, exhaustion, stun and sleep-effects.

Also, I'd like to agree with mr. Swagger on envy and point out that the same could be said for pride. I love the flavor of this but worry it might come to dominate the game.

Dedicated Voter 2013

Also a slight re-wording:

Greed:

Boon: you find pleasure in hoarding valuable objects, even ones you can't find use for.
So long as you wear purely decorative jewelry, clothing, or other adornments of appropriate value for your level you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws. The approppriate value starts at 50gp at first level and at each next level the amount increases by 50gp times your new level, to 150gp at level2, 300 gp at level 3 and so on, to a total of 10500gp at level 20
Penalty: you cannot bear parting with your possessions.
Whenever you must part with an item worth half as much as your appropriate wealth level (see above), you are sickened for 1 round. Whenever such an item is taken away, you must immediately attempt to take it back by any means available or become nauseated for 1 round. You gain a +2 bonus on any rolls or checks made as part of that one action. If your attempt fails, you are sickened for one round.

Dedicated Voter 2013

Also Gluttony has the potential of becoming realy expensive at higher levels, I'd suggest upping the bonus to metamagic effect of +2 (that would include empower f.ex.).


Further comments after some more in depth look at things and a few other posts:

Wrath
I was looking at this and wondering about "killing blow". Does it refer to bringing an opponent to 0, or to actually killing them (through damage or the crit from a coup de grace)? I read it as the latter, but I just wanted to be sure.
It also occurs to me that Wrath could end up gaining the bonus quite often, depending on the build. The use of Boar Style, for example, where two hits cause bleed damage, or a rogue that often gets into flanking position to activate sneak attack precision damage.

Sloth
With this, I think if you treat the fatigue penalty going on as something similar to what happens after a barbarian's rage, it should be fine. I do like the penalty vs. fatigue, exhaustion, stun & sleep that Sigz suggested though. I find the curreent penalty isn't something that a spellcaster would have to worry about. Particularly a summoner or other class that can perform standard-action summoning. For example, a gnome master summoner with a mount-eidolon to deal with movement.

Pride and Envy
I agree with Mr. Swagger and Sigz. It could work if you hold it to the "roll a natural 20" vs. "roll a natural 1" (dropping the 'confirm crit" bit). Otherwise, it gets pretty weighty one way or the other unless the counter is equally as weighty.
I also agree with FMG about the minions thing & Envy. Maybe think about how summoned creatures could trigger it too (as there could very well be a Sloth summoner in the game).

Lust
The "attracted to you in any way" part. Is this physical attraction, or could it come into effect if they happen to be attracted to the jewels you're sporting, or perhaps if under the effect of some spell?
I also recall you asking whether ability-based checks have an effect on DCs or CL for spells. Consider giving the same +1 to charm/emotion spells under the same conditions as the Charisma-check bonus. I also notice that Sloth gets a +2 on Charisma checks while Lust gets a +1. Is this intentional?

Gluttony
Does the term "consumables" for this sin, refer only to ingestible things like potions, antitoxins, and the like? Or does it include other things, often considered 'consumable' like wands, feather tokens, and the like?

Greed
Does "part with" mean something like selling it (where the penalty wouldn't really have a game effect), using it (like a potion, which could happen fairly often), gets destroyed (through sundering or firing an arrow, which may or may not happen depending on the class and such)?
Or does it only mean if you give it away or if it is stolen from you? The former, like selling, might not have much of a game effect, and the latter might not happen too often since the good folk who are the enemies, tend not to steal, meaning the individual. This means the follower of Greed could potentially have a near continual +1 AC & saves.

Dedicated Voter 2013

I like the suggestion on treating the fatigue/exhaustion like a barbarians rage. How's this?

Sloth:
Boon: Same as above.
Penalty: You find it hard to motivate yourself and you tire more easily than most.
Whenever you do a full-round action, or move and standard action in the same round you are fatigued for 1 round. If you are already fatigued, you become exhausted for 2 rounds instead. Also you only gain half the benifit from moral effects (minimum 0) though you take the full penalties from such effects and you take a -2 penalty on saving throws to resist fatigue, exhaustion, stun and sleep-effects.


Gary, thanks for your support and insights!
Non-minions definitely sounds good for Envy. (I only have the first book so far so was not aware of their prominence). I'm not sure about the summoned creatures though as if your enemies unleash a Trumpet Archon upon you, I think you should be suitably impressed. I think what would make sense is that Envy can only be triggered by creatures of CR at least equal to your level-1, but I'm not sure if it sounds too 'gamey'.

As for Sloth, Dark Netwerk had it right - should be treated like the effect after barbarian rage, and be independent from normal fatigue. So for example, if a barbarian is hit by a touch of fatigue, after his rage ends he is exhausted, but after several rounds the exhaustion wears off and he's fatigued as per spell. The same with the Slothful character, since their fatigue is borne from psyche (or soul), not actual muscle stress.

Sigz - I think in your first version of Sloth the boon outweighs the penalties. Either +1 CL or the extra will save have to be removed, or more severe penalties should be added. Also the players will be able to gain immunity to most of these effects.

Mr.Swagger - good catch on the crit-heavy builds. The thing is, though, that Envy is triggered by multiple creatures while Pride only to yourself. Maybe Envy should drop crits from the equation and leave only actions which result from a natural 20 (such wording might be needed because in PbP people tend to post extra rolls just in case, which they don't act upon later). At the same time, leave crits for Pride and extend it to the summoned or directly controlled creatures.

Dark Netwerk: Wrath- the latter reading is correct. Rogues getting the bonus from sneak attacks was one of my goals actually, since in my experience so far sneak attacks don't actually happen that often. Is Boar style an optimal build for some class? If not then it would mean that the character has made tradeoffs to get the sin bonus, which is what the whole system is about :)

Lust - spell works, jewels don't since they are not you (i.e. not an intrinsic part of you). I guess what I really meant, is that if a creature is able to feel physical attraction at all (supposedly some demons and devils can do it, even though it's not a means of reproduction for them, goblins or drow can do it even though it's normally not directed on humans), then you can subvert these feelings and take advantage of them through your words and body language. And yes, I feel I have to equalize Lust and Sloth in this regard so +1 DC to Enchantment (Charm) that is.

Sloth - But what if such a character is an Elf? The penalty is instantly less meaningful to him/her. And later on you can become a lich or a vampire and forget about the penalty at all... although undead are immune to fatigue as well. Let's try to make it more generic:

Boon: You gain +1 to caster level on summoning and compulsion spells, and +1 to Charisma-based checks when bargaining or directing controlled creatures. You also gain +1 Will save against any compulsion or emotion spells and are allowed a save (but at -1 penalty instead of the bonus) vs. ones that normally don't allow saves.
Penalty: If the character takes a full-round action or a move and standard action, and he has already done so in the previous round, he suffers a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity for the next round. If he attempts to do the same while under the effect of this penalty, fatigued or while carrying a heavy load, he is staggered for the next round in addition to this penalty. In addition, any morale or emotion-based bonuses he receives are halved to a minimum of 0.

Gluttony:
Although very situational, I think only ingestible things fit. Extracts and wondrous items that are ingestible also fit. Spells which give you bonuses by making you eat or drink also fit. If I extend this to wands and other items, then the line between 'consumables' and just 'spells' blurs. On the other hand, I think an alchemist with the dilute discovery, or a melee archetype which relies on drinking, could get a good mileage out of it. I will add the accelerated and fortified drinker traits back to make the bonus more generally useful.

Greed:
Selling wouldn't apply since you get gold in return. If you sell for less than the normal selling price though, it might kick in, depending on the undercut. And the idea was that arrows, potions, scrolls, wand/staff charges, and the like, all count, since a greedy character would hate to 'waste' them. To offset this, I think I should replace 'half as much' to 'at least as much'. For a first-level character even a CL1 potion has great value as it might fully heal him/her, or give a bonus equal or bigger to their own natural bonus. For a second-level character it is already less valuable.
As for 'taken away', that would include, for example, disarming. Or confiscating. Chaotic good enemies might also steal from you - or your own chaotic evil rivals!


Correction/addendum to the previous post: A greedy character would not be sickened by using a wand on himself, but would be sickened by using a wand on someone else (unless compensated accordingly). For example, you could avoid the penalty by pre-agreeing with a tank that you heal him for a fair share of treasure, but you would demand payment upfront, and if you overspend and he refuses to pay this will count as treasure taken away by him, etc. I want it to be a fuel for RP as well :)

Also Lust seems too light on penalties now. In continuing to equalizing it with Sloth, I propose increasing the emotion-based penalties by 1.

So, Third Edition (at this rate, we'll get to Pathfinder soon!):

Pride:

Boon: You find inspiration in succeeding against impossible odds.
Any time you, or creatures summoned or controlled by you, roll a natural 20 or confirm a critical hit, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: You feel devastated when you fail to overcome a challenge.
Any time you, or creatures summoned or controlled by you, roll a natural 1, you are sickened for the next round.

Greed:

Boon: you find pleasure in hoarding valuable objects, even ones you can't find use for.
So long as you wear purely decorative valuables worth 50gp at first level, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws. At each next level, the amount necessary to get the bonus increases by 50gp times your new level, to 150gp at level 2, 300 gp at level 3 and so on, to a total of 10500gp at level 20.
Penalty: you cannot bear parting with your possessions.
Whenever you must part with an item worth at least as much, you are sickened for 1 round. Whenever such an item is taken away, you must immediately attempt to take it back by any means available or become nauseated for 1 round. You gain a +2 bonus on any rolls or checks made as part of that one action. If your attempt fails, you are sickened for 1 round.

Lust:

Boon: you can manipulate the lustful urges in others.
You gain a +1 on charisma-based checks when dealing with anyone who can potentially feel physical desire. You also get a +1 to DC of Enchantment(charm) spells cast by you. In addition, you gain the domain powers of the Lust domain as if you were a cleric of your level, based on your highest mental score.
Penalty: your impulse control leaves much to be desired.
You are vulnerable to enchantment(charm, emotion and compulsion). Whenever an effect grants a Will save, you have a -2 penalty. In addition, any morale or emotion-based penalties you suffer are increased by 1.

Envy:

Boon: you rejoice when you see others brought down.
Any time an ally or an enemy, whose CR is at least equal to your level-1 and who is not a minion, rolls a natural 1, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: the success of others fills you with loathing.
Any time ally or an enemy, whose CR is at least equal to your level-1 and who is not a minion, rolls a natural 20, you are sickened for the next round.

Gluttony:

Boon: you possess an uncanny ability to consume quickly and rapaciously.
By spending a full-round action, you can consume two identical ingestible items which you possess in rapid succession. This allows you to treat the effect as if it was enhanced by a metamagic feat with a level increase of +1 of your choice. You also get a +1 to saving throws vs. becoming sickened or nauseated. You also gain accelerated drinker and fortified drinker traits.
Penalty: normal-sized morsels always leave you hungry for the second helping.
Single doses of ingestibles only have half effect on you, rounded down to a minimum of 0. You also get a -2 penalty against checks vs. hunger, thirst or addiction.

Wrath:

Boon: death and suffering of others empowers you.
Whenever you deliver a killing blow, confirm a crit, deal ability damage, bleed or precision damage, you gain +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks and ability checks for one round.
Penalty: you cannot stay calm under stress.
Each round you willingly waive an opportunity to attack an enemy in range (such as engaging in parley, hiding in cover or running away), you are sickened. The condition goes away after you take a hostile action or the combat ends.

Sloth:

Boon: You gain +1 to caster level on summoning and compulsion spells, and +1 to Charisma-based checks when bargaining or directing controlled creatures. You also gain +1 Will save against any compulsion or emotion spells and are allowed a save (but at -1 penalty instead of the bonus) vs. ones that normally don't allow saves.
Penalty: If the character takes a full-round action or a move and standard action, and he has already done so in the previous round, he suffers a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity for the next round. If he attempts to do the same while under the effect of this penalty, fatigued or while carrying a heavy load, he is staggered for the next round in addition to this penalty. In addition, any morale or emotion-based bonuses he receives are halved to a minimum of 0.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Definitely interested in this AP. Right now all I have is the seed of an idea, but I'm probably going to put forward a fallen Aasimar AntiPaladin once you open recruitment.
Unfortunately my rule-fu is not great enough to be able to add meaningfully to this discussion, so I will not.

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