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Countermeasures for Step Up?


Rules Questions

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I have a Medium-sized BBEG who wields a longspear. In the first encounter with the PCs they were able to thwart him via the Step Up feat that one of them had. This proved to be a big problem because the one PC simply kept stepping up and that prevented the BBEG from attacking him.

Can someone suggest some effective countermeasures? (tactics, spells, feats, etc.)

I thought there was a feat that allowed you to shorten up on the weapon to attack at a penalty but that must have been 3.5.


Switch weapons? Easy as a move action.


Place the BBEG in Difficult Terrain and give him the Feat Nimble moves or the magic item Feather Step Slippers (If you dont want the magic item, use a potion of Feather Step).

If your BBEG is in difficult terrain then your PC cannot use a 5foot step (assuming the PC does not have Nimble Moves or Feather Step Slippers himself).

Consider the feat Pushing Assault to keep the PC farther away.

Consider trip attacks (hard to take a 5' step when you are on your butt).

A bit more information on the BBEG would be helpful.

- Gauss

Edit: added the trip attacks


Gauss wrote:

Place the BBEG in Difficult Terrain and give him the Feat Nimble moves or the magic item Feather Step Slippers (If you dont want the magic item, use a potion of Feather Step).

If your BBEG is in difficult terrain then your PC cannot use a 5foot step (assuming the PC does not have Nimble Moves or Feather Step Slippers himself).

Consider the feat Pushing Assault.

A bit more information on the BBEG would be helpful.

- Gauss

Same thought I had.

Andoran

Without modifying his build, your best bet is to just move and provoke.

If you're willing to change feats and such, that's different.


Polearm Master archetype has abilities for dealing with this, but of course it's fighter only.


I'd be cautious about modifying the BBEG to make the player's step up feat useless as this is sort of the ideal situation for it. (I played a character with the feat, and I think it got used 3 or 4 times over the 12 levels the campaign lasted.)

Adding in a minion or two to tie up the player in question would make it a tactical challenge for the party to get their best tool for that BBEG to where he will be most effective.

The minions could also bull rush, trip, drag, etc. to get the player away from their master.

If you're determined to solo the party, then using a bull rush, over run, or trip would be useful, as would sucking up the AoO, moving out of range, and using lunge to attack the player from 15 feet away so that you get an AoO on him when he closes again.

Eric


Eric Mason has good points. Unless your monsters typically use Reach weapons this will be the main time that feat pays for itself. Allowing it to pay for itself this once is not a bad thing.

With that said, I would not run such a BBEG without a few minions. That will make it a bit more complicated, not so one sided, and still allow Step Up to shine.

- Gauss


As a counter, it would be a stupid BBEG to have fought such a worthy foe and not work on mitigating his weaknesses - especially if he plans to meet them again. I'm not saying that you should ruin a player's fun by taking away the only thing he's good at, but at the same time, a smart BBEG is a more fun opponent for a player, in my experience.

As to countering tactics, trip is good. Spiked gauntlets or a backup weapon and Quick Draw. I think there are a set of boots that let you make tiny little teleports (like up to 20 feet a day in 5-foot increments) as a swift action, and thus would not trigger Step Up's conditions.

Always, always, always have minions. Even if they are 5, 6 or even 10 levels below the players, use them. They take an action to kill, which is one more action that you BBEG can survive.


How does tripping help? i.e., if he trips the PC then he's still within 10 feet so on the PC's turn he stands up (move action) and is ready to Step Up again (since that's an immediate action).

If he trips the PC (standard action) and then moves, he's burned his action doing that so he's no better off. And the PC can just double move to get up and move closer again.

The BBEG is a tripping/disarming machine so that's an option.

He has summoned minions but this question is more for when the minions are gone.


Tripping is not a standard action, but an attack that can be used in place of any melee attack. So it can be used on a full attack or an AoO. So you trip to force the PC to the ground, attack with your remaining attacks, then 5-foot step back when you are finished. On the PC's turn, he burns his move action to stand and then has a standard action to move at you (where you are 15 feet away) and cannot attack. If he approaches next to you, you get an AoO for leaving a square you threaten, and you can attempt to trip him there too. Success means that the PC falls to the ground 10 feet away from the BBEG and cannot attack. Lather, rinse, repeat.

If you have Greater Trip, Combat Reflexes and the dexterity for some additional AoOs, you get several more attacks each round when you successfully trip, since Greater Trip makes falling down provoke and you can take AoOs on your turn too.


Ogrork: Trip is not a standard action. It is an attack.

CRB p201 Trip wrote:
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.

Step 1: Trip PC with first attack

Step 2: 5' step away from PC (PC cannot follow if he is on his butt)
Step 3: Make remaining attacks with Reach Weapon.

- Gauss


Ogrork the Mighty wrote:

I have a Medium-sized BBEG who wields a longspear. In the first encounter with the PCs they were able to thwart him via the Step Up feat that one of them had. This proved to be a big problem because the one PC simply kept stepping up and that prevented the BBEG from attacking him.

Can someone suggest some effective countermeasures? (tactics, spells, feats, etc.)

I thought there was a feat that allowed you to shorten up on the weapon to attack at a penalty but that must have been 3.5.

Honestly? Fight fire with fire.

If he uses the Step Up Feat, you should too. If he's a Martial BBEG, it would make sense that he analyzed their combat skills and managed to "mimic" some of their moves. I would also recommend getting the Following Step + Step Up and Strike feats so as to out-maneuver them, so to speak.


No offense.

But that doesn't seem like such a good idea. Automatically countering what the PC's do isn't fair. Altering the BBEG to counter him i would even go so far as to say is cheating your players.

This could be legit, like if for instance the BBEG is leveling up and has encountered them before. Otherwise tailoring the BBEG to counter all the things the PCs are doing is cheap.


If step up is unbalancing your game, talk to the player about it. If it's not, just let the player to enjoy his shinny toy.

I'll suggest the gamemastery guide. It has good advice on this. If one of your players have great cleave, you should *use* hordes of minions, so he can use his feat and shine. Not the other way around.

Andoran

That's why I suggested just moving away every turn.

That way, the fighter gets something out of his toy (a free AoO every turn potentially) without completely neutering reach-reliant enemies.


Step Up is an unbalanced feat. It was intended to mess w/ casters, but casting defensively is still super easy, even in PF.

Instead, it hoses reach users and archers. Archers eventually got a break w/ Point Blank Master and the crossbow equivalent feats. Reach weapon users have yet to recieve their countermeasure.

I don't see why a "Step Back" feat designed specifically to negate Step Up would be so bad. Reach users need something...
If they're willing to spend a feat for the protection, it should be available.


Armor Spikes or Cestus or quickdraw?


May not be an option for this BBEG but for others with the same problem: There are options to get an additional 5ft step. By using those you can spep back, enemy uses step up, step back again to see enemy's sad face.

Ways to get the second 5ft step:
The ranger archetype that traits spells for hunter tricks can get it as hunter trick.

I think I remember there being at least 2 other ways to get it but I can't put my fingers to it.

On the OPs problem:
It's a tricky decision. One thing is that it's cool when a pc sees a tactic he invested in shine now and then. On the other hand the BBEG already knows the party and knows that the last time the step up guy messed with his tactic. So he's likely to have thought about it and come to a conclusion.
Because of that I'd think about having the BBEG use the difficult terrain + nimble steps trick but only for some time.
For example he creates the difficult terrain with a spell and when the spell runs out it's gone and the step up works.


It might be possible to get a push property on a gauntlet somehow. If not, it could be a custom item that the players might like to get hold of if they beat him.

So if someone steps up, he strikes them with a spiked gauntlet and if he hits, gets to roll CMB to push them back five feet and follow up with spear attacks.

This is probably not doable by RAW, though. I can't think of anything that produces this effect.


barbarian rage power knockback is usable on any attack, bullrush with UAS/armorspikes/etc,
follow up with reach weapon...

Quote:
How does tripping help? i.e., if he trips the PC then he's still within 10 feet so on the PC's turn he stands up (move action) and is ready to Step Up again (since that's an immediate action).
if he used an immediate during YOUR turn, then that uses up the swift on his own next turn. you can't use an immediate action again (with the 'normal' cost, i.e. the FOLLOWING turn's swift) until your next turn:
PRD wrote:
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).

his only hope would be CRAWLING the 5' as a move action (trying to avoid the AoO with Acrobatics at a penalty) and taking a Standard Attack.


I'd say next time (since I'm assuming this BBEG didn't survive) you have a polearm wielding character, give them a second weapon that can be used at a normal range. It's good because A) it rewards the player's usage of Step Up by forcing the BBEG to use a weapon he may not be trained in as well and B) still makes your BBEG a threat against the PCs. Something simple like a one handed weapon will do honestly.


yeah, reach weapon users ALWAYS need a close-in weapon, ideally that doesn't require them to drop the pole-arm. if they have martial proficiency and wear armor, armor spikes are it, basically: 50gp a pop. if they have a bite/gore/other natural weapon, those can work too, although claws require you to un-wield the polearm by taking one hand off, in order to use the claw. these very well may be less damage and less power (enchants, feat specialization, etc) than the polearm, but they still let you make an attack... which can deliver trips, knockbacks, sunders, whatever. 50gp is worth it :-)


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Step Up is an unbalanced feat. It was intended to mess w/ casters, but casting defensively is still super easy, even in PF.

Instead, it hoses reach users and archers. Archers eventually got a break w/ Point Blank Master and the crossbow equivalent feats. Reach weapon users have yet to recieve their countermeasure.

I don't see why a "Step Back" feat designed specifically to negate Step Up would be so bad. Reach users need something...
If they're willing to spend a feat for the protection, it should be available.

Those are just opinions.

How is it unbalanced? (Using terms other than "hoses")


Giv Big Boss Spear dat shrink to Short Spear on command. Dat show pesky adventoorers. BASH EM!!!!


Several options come to mind…

As mentioned before, there “easiest” option is difficult terrain with the BBEG able to circumvent and take 5’ steps.
Assuming the PCs are also able to do so, this is not a solution, however…

Other thoughts:

1. BBEG has one or more cavalier minions capable of sharing Teamwork Feats and or some other way to gain temporary Feats and utilizes the “Swap Places” feat to continue to put minions between himself and his enemies.

2. BBEG has one or more minions capable of Dimension Door ing &/ or short range teleporting him around the battlefield with them. Especially nice if they are intangible or somehow difficult to hit / neutralize.

3. Some sort of flight ability and use your 5’ step to move upwards or up and at an angle, attacking downwards with the reach weapon.

4. A. Concealment or miss chance items / spells (+ Sidestep / Improved Sidestep Feat[s] for additional safety).

5. If BBEG is a half elf, use the Paragon Surge spell to either get the Feat that allows you to move in difficult terrain or the above mentioned “Swap Places” feat.

-TimD


Brain in a Jar wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Step Up is an unbalanced feat. It was intended to mess w/ casters, but casting defensively is still super easy, even in PF.

Instead, it hoses reach users and archers. Archers eventually got a break w/ Point Blank Master and the crossbow equivalent feats. Reach weapon users have yet to recieve their countermeasure.

I don't see why a "Step Back" feat designed specifically to negate Step Up would be so bad. Reach users need something...
If they're willing to spend a feat for the protection, it should be available.

Those are just opinions.

How is it unbalanced? (Using terms other than "hoses")

Because there is absolutely not one single way for a reach weapon user to continue using his reach weapon once the guy with Step Up has moved adjacent to him.

A melee character confronted with a flying enemy can himself obtain flight from somewhere to engage.

An archer can take a feat to not provoke while shooting and no longer care if someone is adjacent (well, the melee damage he takes still sucks, of course).

And a mage just has to make a concentration check which progresses for free for doing the things a caster would want to be doing anyway -- buffing his caster level and casting stat.

Reach user has no recourse at all. Until he does, it is a broken feat, made worse by the fact it is available right from level 1 for basically no pre-reqs. The only more broken/unbalanced feat to the mechanics of combat in all of PF is the Flanking Foil feat. A DM that doesn't ban that is a DM I refuse to play for. Even if I'm not playing a sneak attacker. I expect a certain level of empathy and decency from the guy who controls all of the game environment.


To the OP: potion of Enlarge Person. Quite cheap and the 5' Step Up isn't good enough anymore.

..and use lots of minions, minions with Tanglefoot Bags - putting the E back into BBEG.


Why is "drop reach weapon, draw non-reach weapon, attack" not an option? With Quick-Draw you can even full-attack the turn you switch weapons. Or Improved Unarmed Strike could be used so that you don't even need to drop the reach weapon.

Not sure how exactly there's "no recourse" here. "Having any second weapon at all" seems like a pretty simple recourse to me.


right... Enlarge Person is what makes Reach Weapons awesome for Medium Characters in the first place.
Obviously not an option at all levels/ all situations, but it definitely goes with the territory of Reach Weapon.

Likewise for Armor Spikes. Seriously, no 'drawing'/switching issues, 50gp makes this thread redundant.


@ Quandary

Or better yet, how about you tell your player to read the RAW for Step Up closer and follow them properly. I completely forgot about it myself, and I'm glad I figured something was off...Oh God, was I right. Sometimes the simplest answers are just right there in front of your face, and you don't realize it.

Step Up

Step Up wrote:
Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.

(Emphasis mine)

First, he violated the fact that the BBEG has to be adjacent for him to use this ability. If BBEG was attacking with Reach, he was not adjacent, and thus he could not use Step Up because he did not meet that criteria.

Second, he (may have) violated the fact that this feat only works when a character is using a 5-foot step, not a movement action. In addition, this 5-foot step must be from an adjacent square to a non-adjacent square (hence the phrase "Away from you").

Third, he would have inadvertantly violated the fact that this feat can only be used as long as he ends up adjacent to the foe that took the 5-foot step, not outside of his reach.

Fourth, and Last, he might have also violated the fact that he may have taken a 5-foot step afterward, when it came (back) to his turn, or that he may not have taken 5 feet off from his total movement allotted from that turn (for example, 25 feet for a single move, and 55 feet for a double movement action, respectively).

Now before I am called a mean, hateful person, or somebody that would chew this guy a new one over a measly feat, I will cut the guy some slack because he may have read this part, and only this part; The short description. Here's what the basic description says:

Click here, and scroll down until you get to the Step Up section.

PFSRD wrote:
Take a 5-foot step as an immediate action.

If the feat's description were that simple, there would be no issue or RAW violation, and chances are he didn't read beyond this for the purposes of utilizing it. I've done something like this too, and I am sure everyone else has at some point with some other feat or fine print.

I would just talk to your player about this (heck, even all your players if you want either their support or their input), and tell him that he made a 'tiny little error' with using that feat. I would also make sure you let all the other players know that they should always read the fine print of a feat before they pick it (and I would allow the player to repick that feat if he would want something else, since that feat, after reading the fine print, may not be something he would want to stick with). From that point, just continue with the game as normal.


Unfortunately, it still sounds like the player was using it properly.

Example:
PC charges to BBEG (provokes an AoO) and is now adjacent to BBEG. The PC makes his attacks.
On the BBEG's turn it takes a 5' step away from PC. This allows PC to Step Up.
The BBEG is now unable to make reach weapon attacks.

Next round the BBEG learns his lesson. When it comes his turn he knocks the PC on his butt (trip) and THEN takes a 5' step back to make reach weapon attacks.

- Gauss


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Step Up is an unbalanced feat. It was intended to mess w/ casters, but casting defensively is still super easy, even in PF.

Instead, it hoses reach users and archers. Archers eventually got a break w/ Point Blank Master and the crossbow equivalent feats. Reach weapon users have yet to recieve their countermeasure.

I don't see why a "Step Back" feat designed specifically to negate Step Up would be so bad. Reach users need something...
If they're willing to spend a feat for the protection, it should be available.

Those are just opinions.

How is it unbalanced? (Using terms other than "hoses")

Because there is absolutely not one single way for a reach weapon user to continue using his reach weapon once the guy with Step Up has moved adjacent to him.

A melee character confronted with a flying enemy can himself obtain flight from somewhere to engage.

An archer can take a feat to not provoke while shooting and no longer care if someone is adjacent (well, the melee damage he takes still sucks, of course).

And a mage just has to make a concentration check which progresses for free for doing the things a caster would want to be doing anyway -- buffing his caster level and casting stat.

Reach user has no recourse at all. Until he does, it is a broken feat, made worse by the fact it is available right from level 1 for basically no pre-reqs. The only more broken/unbalanced feat to the mechanics of combat in all of PF is the Flanking Foil feat. A DM that doesn't ban that is a DM I refuse to play for. Even if I'm not playing a sneak attacker. I expect a certain level of empathy and decency from the guy who controls all of the game environment.

A reach weapon user can bull rush the enemy back after he steps up. Or he can simply move away from him using normal movement (or acrobatics). Both of these should offer him the chance to use his reach weapon again.


yeah, Step Up works just fine, it just requires the no-Reach character to have already put themself in position adjacent to the Reach Weapon wielder, whether moving and attacking, charging, or just moving adjacent. This isn't particularly special, since they would have to do this ANYWAYS if they want to attack the BBEG, Step Up or no Step Up. Normally these are potentially drawing AoO's (unless you Teleport, Burrow/are Invisible/etc, or use Tumble succesfully). At that point, it would make sense to many BBEG's to 5' step back and Full Attack/Iterate on your ass, but Step Up kind of messes up those plans.

sure, if Mr Non-Reach can't get adjacent to begin with, Step Up doesn't do anything.


Gauss wrote:

Unfortunately, it still sounds like the player was using it properly.

Example:
PC charges to BBEG (provokes an AoO) and is now adjacent to BBEG.
BBEG takes a 5' step away from PC. This allows PC to Step Up.
BBEG is now unable to make reach weapon attacks.

Next round the BBEG learns his lesson. When it comes his turn he knocks the PC on his butt (trip) and THEN takes a 5' step back to make reach weapon attacks.

- Gauss

If the BBEG was smart, he'd trip him before he got adjacent, ending his movement, and making his charge futile. But that's not part of the argument.

That would make sense. However, OP says the PC was using the Step Up feat to move back from the BBEG's reach, not adjacent to him (when the BBEG was not adjacent to begin with). He violated the fine print proxy's for Step Up in this manner, which is the crux of the issue. That's not a Step Up, that's a Step Back, and you should be charging him Readied Actions for that (and that's being generous).

If PC was adjacent to begin with, and BBEG takes a 5-foot and moves away, then it would function. If BBEG was hitting with reach to begin with (or attempting to) and PC uses it to move away (or out of his reach in general) it would otherwise not work, which is the issue the OP is having.


Darksol, can you quote the line where the OP stated the PC was using step up to move away? I cannot find it.

Thanks

- Gauss


bullrush can apparently be done without any weapon, and thus you could potentially use it, even without armor spikes or needing to use UAS (which provokes if you don't have Imp UAS). but doing so takes a standard action, leaving not much else of substance (no full attack like was the BBEG's plan in 5' stepping). if the BBEG is a barbarian and has knockback, he can bullrush on top of any attack, e.g. an iterative, but he needs to threaten with a weapon to do so (UAS should always work via kicks or headbutt, but will provoke if you don't have Imp UAS or equivalent)

moving away, possibly with tumble, is an option, but not an OBVIOUS choice since it's giving up on a full attack when there isn't any evidence that Mr No-Reach even HAS Step Up. (after he's used it once, there's no question) Assuming the same interaction happens a 2nd time and BBEG does choose to move away/tumble (which Step Up doesn't work against), they are stuck with just a Standard Attack, no Full Attack... Mr No-Reach can also now 5' step and Full Attack in response, so not such a nice scenario for Mr BBEG.


@ Gauss: Not exactly a word for word, but he pretty much did cite the rule violation (I believe his second post).

Here's the line:

Ogrork the Barbarian wrote:
if he trips the PC then he's still within 10 feet so on the PC's turn he stands up (move action) and is ready to Step Up again (since that's an immediate action).

Honestly, this violates more than one rule; I could be wrong, but the important thing to note is that if he stands up, that's normally an AOO, and he can't move adjacent to him because it wasn't the BBEG's turn to move (which is one proxy requirement), and plus the BBEG wasn't adjacent at the start of the provocation to begin with.

If BBEG succeeds in a trip, he can try to stand up again, but if BBEG has Combat Reflexes (which I bet he does), he should get another chance to trip him.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If BBEG succeeds in a trip, he can try to stand up again, but if BBEG has Combat Reflexes (which I bet he does), he should get another chance to trip him.

I thought you couldn't trip someone in response to them attempting to stand, since when the AoO is resolved the victim is still prone, which makes tripping have no effect. (You could disarm them, though.)

Cheliax

You cant trip a player who is standing up, AOO's are resolved before the action that provokes them (hence you go prone in the square you provoke in while moving, you cannot be tripped while already prone, the opponent attacks before you cast your spell as a wizard, you cannot be disarmed while retrieving your weapon from the ground etc).

The OP is probably unaware of the specifics of step up so reiterating them was probably useful in this case. Step up is a good way to shutdown a reach weapon user, as you can attempt to disarm them if they take a move action (costing them their whole round). However a smart reach weapon user has a melee option just in case remember the rules for melee PC's (have multiple weapons to be able to act in all circumstances) also apply to NPCs.


Roberta Yang wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If BBEG succeeds in a trip, he can try to stand up again, but if BBEG has Combat Reflexes (which I bet he does), he should get another chance to trip him.
I thought you couldn't trip someone in response to them attempting to stand, since when the AoO is resolved the victim is still prone, which makes tripping have no effect. (You could disarm them, though.)

Well, looks like I have yet another thing to argue with my GM about, but this would be a minor case since a scenario involving constant tripping already passed.

@ Caderyn: Well, if they make the AOO, would they still suffer the -4 to AC for being prone for melee attacks?

Cheliax

yes, the AOO while standing is resolved against a prone opponent so they get a +4 to hit with the melee attack (making it very easy to hit your opponent).

There are a significant amount of advantages to both sides of resolving AOO's correctly (it stops silly things like chain tripping which is nice for the tripped person, but it also provides the tripper with attacks against a much easier to hit opponent because of the +4 vs prone targets).

Step up goes extremely well with trip/disarm, while you lack reach if you can get in range you can trip and generally ruin the day of any reach fighter of course having multiple weapons will make this less effective.


Darksol, the OP was not citing what the PC did in that second post. He was asking how my application of trip worked and then offered his understanding of how trip worked. Note: He did not provide a complete example and his understanding was incorrect. A complete example would have included the action after standing up (5' step to get close or a move action).

In short: The PC was not violating the rules. The OP's example was.

Also, as pointed out by others. While standing up provokes an AoO that AoO cannot be another trip as you are prone. The AoO is provoked before you actually stand up (while you are prone).

- Gauss


Quandary wrote:

bullrush can apparently be done without any weapon, and thus you could potentially use it, even without armor spikes or needing to use UAS (which provokes if you don't have Imp UAS). but doing so takes a standard action, leaving not much else of substance (no full attack like was the BBEG's plan in 5' stepping). if the BBEG is a barbarian and has knockback, he can bullrush on top of any attack, e.g. an iterative, but he needs to threaten with a weapon to do so (UAS should always work via kicks or headbutt, but will provoke if you don't have Imp UAS or equivalent)

moving away, possibly with tumble, is an option, but not an OBVIOUS choice since it's giving up on a full attack when there isn't any evidence that Mr No-Reach even HAS Step Up. (after he's used it once, there's no question) Assuming the same interaction happens a 2nd time and BBEG does choose to move away/tumble (which Step Up doesn't work against), they are stuck with just a Standard Attack, no Full Attack... Mr No-Reach can also now 5' step and Full Attack in response, so not such a nice scenario for Mr BBEG.

If Mr. BBEG moves away he can use his standard action to trip the enemy with his reach weapon, Mr. Step Up then has to burn an action to stand (so no chance of a full attack) and provoke an AoO. If he then 5 foots back inside his reach, he can't use step up on Mr. BBEG's next turn. Mr. BBEG can now 5 foot and full attack.

Bull rushing can be done right away (I stepped back, you stepped up? Okay, I'll think on my feet and bull rush you back, no 5 foot step for you on your turn). Mr. Step up now has to use a normal move to close distance (probably provoking an AoO, giving Mr. BBEG a trip attempt). If the trip is successful, Mr. BBEG is now set up to get a full attack off on Mr. Step Up on his next turn.

His best/easiest option is probably just full attacking with armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet type weapon, (or quick drawing a non-reach weapon and full attacking), but he's got options/tactics available if he's dead set on using his reach weapon.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
If Mr. BBEG moves away he can use his standard action to trip the enemy with his reach weapon, Mr. Step Up then has to burn an action to stand (so no chance of a full attack) and provoke an AoO. If he then 5 foots back inside his reach, he can't use step up on Mr. BBEG's next turn.

Right up until the very end. Taking a 5' step on your own turn doesn't preclude you from using Step Up once your turn is over... rather the reverse, using Step Up precludes you from using your normal 5' step on your next turn... but you can use Step Up again if your enemy then 5' steps again.

Quote:
Bull rushing can be done right away (I stepped back, you stepped up? Okay, I'll think on my feet and bull rush you back, no 5 foot step for you on your turn).

yes, this is what i mentioned. but the point is that this is using standard actions unless you have knockback and a adjacent-threatening weapon to use it with... in the end, he hasn't changed the situation at all to his benefit.

yes, the whole scenario depends on Mr Step Up succesfully getting inside the reach weapon, by tumble or whatever, that's already been made clear... if you get tripped by the reach AoO, none of this is in play, that's obvious. like i said, having armor spikes is just a 'no duh' item to buy because it gives you full flexibility.

...of course, Mr Step Up really wants Step Up and Strike and Following Step.

Question: I'm not really sure about Following Step... it lets you move 10', but apparently the 'trigger' is still just 5' steps. Does anybody think the intent is to also allow triggering on other forms of movement? Or is the intent to allow you to 'maneuver' more 'around' the enemy, moving 10' when they move 5'? (honestly, that seems most useful for TIny creatures who are already in the same square as the enemy, they can move 'ahead' of the enemy's movement, albeit they would probably want some means of threatening at 5' if they do that... it DOES just block the movement though, which is useful)


Drink a fly potion and stab them from ten feet up in the air, perhaps.


hey, no fair!, you stole my character concept!!! 8-P


Quandary wrote:

Right up until the very end. Taking a 5' step on your own turn doesn't preclude you from using Step Up once your turn is over... rather the reverse, using Step Up precludes you from using your normal 5' step on your next turn... but you can use Step Up again if your enemy then 5' steps again.

The text says that Step Up is taking a 5' step as an immediate action, you're still limited to one 5' step per turn, no?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If BBEG succeeds in a trip, he can try to stand up again, but if BBEG has Combat Reflexes (which I bet he does), he should get another chance to trip him.
I thought you couldn't trip someone in response to them attempting to stand, since when the AoO is resolved the victim is still prone, which makes tripping have no effect. (You could disarm them, though.)

Well, looks like I have yet another thing to argue with my GM about, but this would be a minor case since a scenario involving constant tripping already passed.

@ Caderyn: Well, if they make the AOO, would they still suffer the -4 to AC for being prone for melee attacks?

Any tactics that can shut down a character is highly suspicious. The Devs want people to play and very few person like to spend an evening being incapable to do anything.

It is only a rule of thumb, but if something seem to "shut down" a target forever without any recourse on the target part (beside praying for the attacker to roll a 1), there are good probabilities that someone is misreading a rule.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
The text says that Step Up is taking a 5' step as an immediate action, you're still limited to one 5' step per turn, no?
PRD wrote:

Miscellaneous Actions: Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

Note that it isn't action 'slot' based. Using Step Up previously (off your turn) meant you couldn't 5' step on your last TURN, but that leaves it open to 5' step off-your-turn later in the ROUND (a different round than the original 5' step). Turn =/= Round.

Besides that Step Up is clearly an exceptional ability, so when it says you can spend an Immediate to 5' Step off your turn, you can. Step Up doesn't care what you did on your previous turn.

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