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Summoner Summon Monster SLA replacement


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew


Fireball - Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast Fireball as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier using her Summoner level as her caster level. In addition, Fireball spells cast by the Summoner are are not subjected to the 10d6 maximum.

At level 5, a Summoner way expend an additional use of her Fireball spell-like ability to ignore 5 points of fire resistance of all targets of her Fireball. At level 10, when the summoner expends an additional use of her Fireball spell-like ability, she instead ignores the first 10 points of fire resistance and the effects of Evasion from all targets of her Fireball. At level 15, when the summoner expends an additional use of her Fireball spell-like ability, she ignores the first 15 points of fire resistance as well as effects from Improved Evasion from all targets of her Fireball. At level 20, when the Summoner expends an additional use of her Fireball spell-like ability, she ignores the all fire resistance and immunity from all targets of her Fireball.

Thoughts?

Andoran

It's a cool idea but why specifically fireball?

Why not a scaling spell that changes as the summoner levels?

Burning Hands
Burning Arc
Fireball
Etc
Etc


I wanted to make sure that the ability was sound and not over/under powered, I am working on making Leena and Gowry from the anime Slayers. Leena's signature spell is Fireball.

Lantern Lodge

I agree is a cool ideal, but a way overpowered one.
Given that most damage that scale with character levels, only rises every 2 levels, a straight fireball(at level 1) seems overpowered here.

Most level 1 abilities just isn't as powerful as a fireball (AOE, 1d6 PER lv...etc)

If the damage dice increases by 1 every 2 levels, it may work... but not as it is right now.


The reason I had it level every level rather then every other level is because even a SM1 at level 1 will deal more the 1d6 damage over the course of a minute and adds an additional being on the field. Even assuming the fireball hits 4 creatures.


But the fireball can kill all of the enemies instantly if they are CR 1 monsters. A level one summon may do more damage if it stays alive, but it will not win the encounter.

Lantern Lodge

Starcoffin wrote:
The reason I had it level every level rather then every other level is because even a SM1 at level 1 will deal more the 1d6 damage over the course of a minute and adds an additional being on the field. Even assuming the fireball hits 4 creatures.

Neg Channel Cleric also does 1d6 at level 1, but only get 2d6 at level 3. The same is for a Alchemist's bombs.

Summons are great, but they are more hp tankers and less damage dealers (by default, buffing them is another thing.)

Also remember that by default, a summoner cannot make use of the class summons if his/her Eidolon is out. Is your "fireball" going to be restricted by that?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

It wouldn't pass in my game, partially because of the evaison negator but largely because it doesn't fit in the theme of the class.

For the character concept you want, modify a Sylvan sorcerer. There you've got a companion and your fireballs in one throw.


But there is still reflex for half when it comes to damage, so max 3. And no, it does not win the campaign, but a flanker with ok damage to me personally sounds better then a possible d6 to a well placed 4 creatures before reflex and possible fire resistance.

By the way it sounds, if I changed it so the fireballs leveled at every odd level instead of every level, what would you think?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I don't care. I don't believe in making Summoners better blasters than Sorcerers. They're a broken enough class already.


As for using the SLA, it can old be used if A) the Eidolon is adjacent to the summomer or; B) the Eidolon and/or the summoner is within the spells AOE.

Lantern Lodge

@Starcoffin

Every Odd level would help balance it a bit, but that is not the main issue here.

Can you tell us WHY you want to change the summoner's SLA?
Is it:

1) You have an ideal that requires an Eidolon + spellcaster?

2) You feel the summon Monster SLA is too weak/complicated/overpowered?

I watched the anime Slayers. Lina Inverse is more of a sorcerer like character. Cos a) She make use of only a selection of spells, b) She never does any/no summons.
She does have some low level healing spells, but nothing that a level of orcale/cleric dip can't give you.

So why make use of a Summoner instead of a Sorcerer? Remember Lina CAST Fireballs, she does not make use of it like a Demon, (aka SLA.)


1] I like the flavor of having Leena and Gowry as the same player
2) Leena VERY RARELY summons (she does in fact summon a giant squid on 2 different occasions).

I want to give the class fireball because it is not part of their spell-list. I understand that giving the summoner a blasting spell is not "in the flavor of the class", but the idea is that what is being sacrificed is equivalent to what is being gained. The new ability has no real synergy with the rest of the classes abilities. Any ones that may be there were not intended and will be reworded accordingly.

Lantern Lodge

Lina and Gourry, huh?

Ok, I would suggest you pick the Sorcerer class, BUT! Make the following changes:

1) You don't get a bloodline. (NOTHING that ties to any bloodline.)
-

2) In place of a bloodline, you get the summoner's Eidolon
-

3) You get ALL the class features of a Summoner, EXCEPT the following:

a) You don't get access to a Summoner's spell lists and spells per day.

b) Summon Monster I (Sp) - and anything tied to this class feature.

c) Aspect (Su)

d) Merge Forms (Su)

e) Greater Aspect (Su)

f) Twin Eidolon (Su)

These Class features does not compliment a Lina and Gourry team up, so we will cut them out.

This will better reflect what Lina and Gourry is like. A Sorceress with a Swordman.
(As to why Sorcerer vs Summoner. Sorcerer, fits Lina A LOT more and since we are customizing a class here, why not go all the way?)


I talked with the GM about that and he is in favor of that idea as well. Thank you!

Lantern Lodge

Great to see it working for you! Have fun!

Cheliax

Another option is for a summoner to buy a staff of fire. It he summoner has the spell wall of fire as a 3rd level spell but since it is a 4th level spell on the wiz/sorc list, the summoner would expend a level 4 spell slot to keep it charged. I believe they could auto activate it on wall of fire, might need a mud check to activate the other spells, not so tough to do that mud check by the time you can afford the staff of fire, somewhere around 18k.

I also feel the trading of the summon monster ability for fireball is way to much. Not just in damage per level but also how well you can place it with a long range and and pinpoint placement. plus the area of effect is very large. It also allows you to use both the eidolon and the fireball at the same time. Since you cannot have the eidolon and a summons active at the same time, that should also clue you into why it is way too good of an alternate ability.

Silver Crusade

Or you can be a sorcerer and take leadership? Adding blasting to the summoner just rubs me the wrong way. A sorcerer could also call and bind an outsider.

A more complicated solution: Dip sorcerer 1, pick up burning hands. Take the rest of your levels in summoner. Get a staff of fire. You will likely never use the summon monster SLA since your concept is so tied to having your eidolon out.


Starcoffin wrote:

1] I like the flavor of having Leena and Gowry as the same player

2) Leena VERY RARELY summons (she does in fact summon a giant squid on 2 different occasions).

I want to give the class fireball because it is not part of their spell-list. I understand that giving the summoner a blasting spell is not "in the flavor of the class", but the idea is that what is being sacrificed is equivalent to what is being gained. The new ability has no real synergy with the rest of the classes abilities. Any ones that may be there were not intended and will be reworded accordingly.

Can you summon a giant squid as a sorcerer anyway with the properly selected spells?

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