So I'm planning on making a Tengu Monk, and I have some questions about how natural attacks work.
My tengu will have both of the following racial traits
Natural Weapon: A tengu has a bite attack that deals 1d3 points of damage.
Claw Attack: Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks that deal 1d3 points of damage, and are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.
If I understand this correctly, it means I can, as a full round action, Attack with 2 claws at full base attack and full str damage. Can I make a beak attack as a secondary attack at a minus 5 penalty, dealing half str damage? Or can I only make either 2 claws, or 1 bite, both being primary attacks.
I know there are rules for adding natural attacks into a full attack, as secondary attacks. Does this mean I could flurry of blows and add claw claw bite to it, all with -5 to hit and + half str damage?
Can I flurry of blows using my claws instead of a normal unarmed attack, to deal slashing damage instead? I'm not sure why I would want to do this, but it is an option? Can I flurry with bite attacks?
What kind of damage does a bite attack do?
Are multiattack and improved natural attack legal feats to take in Pathfinder Society?
As a full-round action, you could claw/claw/bite, all at full attack, full Str, as they are all primary natural attacks.
You could flurry and claw/claw/bite at -5, as long as your flurry attacks do not use your hands. For each hand used, you would have to give up a claw attack.
No, flurry uses IUS or weapons with the Monk designator only. IIRC, natural attacks are explicitly excluded from being flurryable.
Bites do P, IIRC.
Not without some sort of legal source for them.
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Bestiary feats are not legal. You cannot combine natural attacks with a flurry of blows. So your choices are (at level 1):
* flurry - 2 unarmed strikes (no claws or bite)
* full attack - bite, claw, claw (all primary attacks)
* full attack - unarmed strike (primary), bite (secondary)
* attack (standard action) - bite or claw or unarmed strike
Bite attacks do P, B, and S all at the same time.
I think I'm going to take a archetype, like master of many styles, that trades away flurry of blows, so even if the flurry + natural attacks turns out to be legal, 5 attacks a round at level 1 or 2 seems way to cheesy.
Probably going to MC fighter, maybe start at fighter 1, for more HP and starting with weapon finesse.
Could I deliver a stunning blow with a claw or bite attack? My gut instinct would be no, but it seems strange that I could meet the pre-reqs for the stunning blow feat, but not be able to legally deliver one.
Are there any Tengu racial traits hiding anywhere? I found the alternate racial traits, but not any normal traits. Can anyone think of any decent generic traits for a Tengu claw fighter/monk to take? Maybe something to get me fly as a class skill?
Can anyone think of a way to get dex to damage with my natural attacks, instead of str?
Mike Lindner wrote: Bestiary feats are not legal. You cannot combine natural attacks with a flurry of blows. So your choices are (at level 1):
* flurry - 2 unarmed strikes (no claws or bite)
* full attack - bite, claw, claw (all primary attacks)
* full attack - unarmed strike (primary), bite (secondary)
* attack (standard action) - bite or claw or unarmed strike
Bite attacks do P, B, and S all at the same time.
Explain why he could not use natural attacks and flurry of blows.
Claws and bite are treated as a natural attack. Natural attacks follow this rule when combined with normal attacks:
Quote: Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type. So a tengu monk can make natural attacks and normal attacks if he does not use his hands and beak in the normal attack and takes a -5 to hit on all natural attacks made in a full-round action.
Monks unarmed strike:
Quote: A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. So a tengu monk does not need to use its clawed hands for the flurry of blows.
Thus he should be able to flurry of blows (using elbows, feet, and knees) as a full-round action and follow that with his claw/claw/bite at a -5 to hit.
Lab_Rat wrote: Mike Lindner wrote: Bestiary feats are not legal. You cannot combine natural attacks with a flurry of blows. So your choices are (at level 1):
* flurry - 2 unarmed strikes (no claws or bite)
* full attack - bite, claw, claw (all primary attacks)
* full attack - unarmed strike (primary), bite (secondary)
* attack (standard action) - bite or claw or unarmed strike
Bite attacks do P, B, and S all at the same time.
Explain why he could not use natural attacks and flurry of blows.
Claws and bite are treated as a natural attack. Natural attacks follow this rule when combined with normal attacks:
Quote: Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type. So a tengu monk can make natural attacks and normal attacks if he does not use his hands and beak in the normal attack and takes a -5 to hit on all natural attacks made in a full-round action.
Monks unarmed strike:
Quote: A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. So a tengu monk does not need to use its clawed hands for the flurry of blows.
Thus he should be able to flurry of blows (using elbows, feet, and knees) as a full-round action and follow that with his claw/claw/bite at a -5 to hit. (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Last sentence.
There is a feat that will let you flurry with natural attacks (at the cost of a feat). (Feral Combat training from Ultimate Combat - see http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat). This requires taking Weapon Focus with a given natural attack and in many ways this is likely sub-optimal since as a monk your damage from improved unarmed strikes will be higher than from a Tengu's natural attacks.
To get natural attacks w/Dex you could do a feat & magic item combo:
- feat - Weapon Finesse (Natural weapons are finessable so you can use weapon finesse and attack with your Dex to hit - though note that natural weapons do benefit from STR for damage...)
- magic item - Amulet of Mighty Fists (agile) - amulets of mighty fists can be enchanted with weapon special abilities in place of +'s so can get the agile ability that allows you to use DEX for damage.
Is amulet of mighty fists in the Player's Guide?
Belafon wrote: Whole lotta rules quoting Thx. Missed that last part.
Victor Zajic wrote: Is amulet of mighty fists in the Player's Guide? It is indeed in the CRB
Hrmm, that doesn't really seem economically feasible. Perhaps I will just pick up power attack early rather than late.
Victor Zajic wrote: Hrmm, that doesn't really seem economically feasible. Perhaps I will just pick up power attack early rather than late. Amulet of mighty fists is indeed fairly mid-level item. Most monks use STR as main stat, although I'm sure you are trying to use the tengu's dex bonus. Finesse monk is indeed something I havent seen a lot of.
Maybe zen archer instead?
14 str 18 dex. 3 attacks a round with full attack natural attacks should make up the difference, damage wise, until I get power attack. I assume with the natural attacks, they would each get the full bonus from power attack, not modified like if I was using TWF.
Victor Zajic wrote: I assume with the natural attacks, they would each get the full bonus from power attack, not modified like if I was using TWF. If you're using only natural attacks, they all are of the normal type. Claws and Bite are primary, so they're at full-BAB and normal Strength to damage.
The Power Attack bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
Just do MoMS or whatever, or don't play a monk at all and go for unarmed fighter or brawler or savage warrior or lore warden or...
They can all TWF w/ unarmed and then apply nat weapons to the end just fine. Only the (traditional, flurrying) monk is hamstrung like this.
Just don't forget that you can't take a natural attack if the limb with the attack was used to hold a weapon you attacked with already.
ie if you two-hand a manufactured weapon you can't also take claw attacks (but you could take a bite attack)
If you are wielding a single handed weapon and a shield you can't also take claw attacks (you could take one if you aren't wielding a shield or a second weapon)
A monk making unarmed strikes could flavor them as kicks and still take natural attacks (if not flurrying) but a monk not flurrying is giving up a major class feature.
If you are going to be natural weapon focused you may also want to look into a few things:
- reliable means of getting larger (enlarge person for example)
- friendly casters with magic fang or strong jaw etc
- ring of rat fangs might help get you yet another primary natural attack
- alternative builds that also emphasize natural attacks for example a Druid focused on wild shape, a beast totem barbarian, a natural attacks style ranger (which could be a potential dip for this type of character)
I had assumed that Natural Attack Style ranger wouldn't be that good for me, since most of the bonus feats it grants are not legal for PFS play, since they are from the beastiary. Because otherwise it would be a great couple level dip for my skill point deprived current build. I wish they had left this thread in PFS general discussion instead of moving it, since I posted it there instead this forum for a reason.
If I get to level 4 monk, would my claw and bite attacks count as magic for overcoming DR as long as I have a Ki Point left in my pool?
Victor Zajic wrote: I had assumed that Natural Attack Style ranger wouldn't be that good for me, since most of the bonus feats it grants are not legal for PFS play, since they are from the beastiary. PFS Additional Resources: "Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary - Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source."
The natural weapon combat style from APG is a legal source, yes? I think it works.
Victor Zajic wrote: If I get to level 4 monk, would my claw and bite attacks count as magic for overcoming DR as long as I have a Ki Point left in my pool? Whichever one of those you have Feral Combat Training with would, since that's an effect that augments an unarmed strike.
No, Ki pool states specifically 'unarmed strikes' so it wouldn't work on your natural weapons barring some other rules being used.
From the Fly Skill
Special: A spellcaster with a bat familiar gains a +3 bonus on Fly checks.
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Fly checks depending on its size category: Fine +8, Diminutive +6, Tiny +4, Small +2, Large –2, Huge –4, Gargantuan –6, Colossal –8.
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).
If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a bonus on Fly checks (see Feats).
Tengu alternate racial trait
Glide: Some tengus can use their feathered arms and legs to glide. Tengus with this racial trait can make a DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height without taking falling damage, as if using feather fall. When falling safely, a tengu may make an additional DC 15 Fly check to glide, moving 5 feet laterally for every 20 feet he falls. This racial trait replaces gifted linguist.
Do tengus with the glide alternate racial trait treat Fly as a class skill?
No, they don't have a fly speed. Glide refers to the fly skill but wouldn't count RAW.
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).
Tengu alternate racial trait
Glide: Some tengus can use their feathered arms and legs to glide. Tengus with this racial trait can make a DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height without taking falling damage, as if using feather fall. When falling safely, a tengu may make an additional DC 15 Fly check to glide, moving 5 feet laterally for every 20 feet he falls. This racial trait replaces gifted linguist
So why does this not count RAW? bolding relevant parts.
EDIT: misread the question, no you don't get the +3 class skill bonus, yes you can put skill ranks in it.
Yes the ranger natural weapons style is a PFS legal means of taking select bestiary feats (since they are granted by another legal source - ie the ranger style features)
Feral weapon training is the type of feat that overrides what the normal ki pool / ki strike does (for the natural attack type you get training in)
If I took the following feat
Tengu Raven Form
You can shift into the form of a giant black raven.
Prerequisites: Tengu Wings, character level 7th, tengu.
Benefit: Once per day, you can take the form of a Large black bird resembling a raven, granting you a fly speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability), a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus. This spell-like ability otherwise functions as beast shape II with a caster level equal to your level.
Would take give me fly as a class skill? Fly as a class skill only in giant raven form?
Would I retain all my monk abilities while in giant raven form? I assume I would lose my natural attacks and have them replaced by the natural attacks of a Giant Raven. How would I determine what those attack would be?
See the spell Beast Shape II for what natural attacks etc you get. You would retain all of your monk abilities though still could not flurry with natural attacks unless you too the feat(s) to do so.
I don't believe that beast shape II gives you any skills as class skills but you would certainly qualify to take ranks in fly even without it being a class skill (you can always take ranks in most skills even if they are not class skills - class skills just give you a bonus if you have at least one rank in them.
A fly speed of 60 with good maneuverability is pretty decent.
Beast Shape spells dont' specify what natural attacks you get, and I don't think Giant Raven is statted up in the bestiary. Should i use giant eagle as a basis for it?
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Only creatures with a natural fly speed get fly as a class skill.
See http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph for how polymorph works in Pathfinder. You gain the natural attacks of the form you take - using your BAB. You lost some racial features of your natural form. Your magic items may or may not continue to work (depends on the items) and you retain your feats etc.
So how should I determine the natural attacks of undefined "Giant Raven" form?
Without specific rules, you can look at the mathematical difference between a Raven and an Eagle (normal size) - both are in the bestiary.
Then compare giant eagle to eagle, and you have a good idea on how to stat up a Giant Raven.
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