If I understand this correctly, if you take an archetype that drops Trapfinding you can't disarm magical traps, correct?

That would be correct.

Correct.

That is correct.

Wrong.

Wrong.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

Booty,
What do you base your dissension upon?
The Trapfinding class ability is the only thing that allows you to disarm magical traps.

Wrong.

Everyone here, is now dumber for having read your response...

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

You can disarm magical traps with dispel magic, too.

You can disarm magical traps with dispel magic, too.

For that matter, you can disarm magical traps with Summon Monster I or Mount, as well.

A wand of Mount costs 750gp and is good for 50+ traps (hey, it might save or survive after all), as long as a pony can squeeze into the area that is trapped.

To be honest a Wand of Mount or Unseen Servant is just as good as a rogue with Trapfinding.

Well, unless the trap resets.

Well, unless the trap resets.

There you go again with your crazy talk.

The clown told me to say it or he would eat me.

Well, unless the trap resets.

Yeah but how many Automatically resetting magical traps are there in the game and how likely is it that you're going to come across one before you have some other way to get around it?

LOL you people crack me up. :)

Elamdri, as many as the GM/Writer feels like he wants to put in your path.

- Gauss

Every game I've ever played:

BSF! Go disable the trap with your hit points!

Yeah but how many Automatically resetting magical traps are there in the game and how likely is it that you're going to come across one before you have some other way to get around it?

For some of the all melee character parties I've DMed for? Likely.

BSF! Go disable the trap with your pisspoor will save! Oh crap! The BSF is trying to kill us! RUN!

Sorry, my Evil GM side popped in for a visit for a moment there.

- Gauss

BSF! Go disable the trap with your pisspoor will save! Oh crap! The BSF is trying to kill us! RUN!

Sorry, my Evil GM side popped in for a visit for a moment there.

- Gauss

Again, you're getting hit with a trap that casts Dominate Person before the party has access to Dispel Magic?

Gauss wrote:

BSF! Go disable the trap with your pisspoor will save! Oh crap! The BSF is trying to kill us! RUN!

Sorry, my Evil GM side popped in for a visit for a moment there.

- Gauss

Again, you're getting hit with a trap that casts Dominate Person before the party has access to Dispel Magic?

Confusion can work just as well.

There is just as good a chance of a trap resetting as well as not, since they only exist in Schordinger's theory world.

Elamdri wrote:

Gauss wrote:

BSF! Go disable the trap with your pisspoor will save! Oh crap! The BSF is trying to kill us! RUN!

Sorry, my Evil GM side popped in for a visit for a moment there.

- Gauss

Again, you're getting hit with a trap that casts Dominate Person before the party has access to Dispel Magic?

Confusion can work just as well.

So we're talking about a party coming across a trap that casts Confusion before anyone has a scroll of Dispel Magic? Seems a bit unlikely. Especially since you could probably as said earlier, just use a wand of mount.

"Oh god, the horse is confused!"
"What will do?"
"Ranger...I think you know what we need to do"

Ranger knocks an arrow as a single tear streams down his face

"I'm sorry boy"
*Plunk!*

Actually, can a magic trap automatically reset? Cause if it does...

Crap, why not just make a magic trap and carry it around like a permanent wand?

I can see it now, some barbarian carrying around a trap that automatically casts disintegrate at his target and resets immediately.

I can feel a new character concept coming on folks.

Character who just carries around magic traps and points them at his enemies like Bazookas.

We had to double check the rules recently. It says one thing under the rouge's trap finding ability, but there is more detail under the traps section of the core rulebook.

I can feel a new character concept coming on folks.

Call him Midas.

To be honest a Wand of Mount or Unseen Servant is just as good as a rogue with Trapfinding.

Depending on the trap, Cure Serious Wound or Neutralize Poison also make for it

Actually, can a magic trap automatically reset? Cause if it does...

Crap, why not just make a magic trap and carry it around like a permanent wand?

I can see it now, some barbarian carrying around a trap that automatically casts disintegrate at his target and resets immediately.

I can feel a new character concept coming on folks.

Character who just carries around magic traps and points them at his enemies like Bazookas.

Wouldn't that just be the Symbol line of spells?

Elamdri wrote:

Actually, can a magic trap automatically reset? Cause if it does...

Crap, why not just make a magic trap and carry it around like a permanent wand?

I can see it now, some barbarian carrying around a trap that automatically casts disintegrate at his target and resets immediately.

I can feel a new character concept coming on folks.

Character who just carries around magic traps and points them at his enemies like Bazookas.

Wouldn't that just be the Symbol line of spells?

Naw, I'm talking about like a disintegrate trap that automatically resets and you wield like a ray gun or something.

We had to double check the rules recently. It says one thing under the rogue's trap finding ability, but there is more detail under the traps section of the core rulebook.

You might want to check all the errata.

Gauss wrote:

BSF! Go disable the trap with your pisspoor will save! Oh crap! The BSF is trying to kill us! RUN!

Sorry, my Evil GM side popped in for a visit for a moment there.

- Gauss

Again, you're getting hit with a trap that casts Dominate Person before the party has access to Dispel Magic?

CLERIC AM WISE, AM HAVING AWESOME PERCEPTION. CLERIC AM HAVING "FIND TRAPS". CLERIC AM HAVING "DISPEL MAGIC". LEAVE SNEAKY ROGUE IN TAVERN. ROGUE AM BEST HOME PICKING POCKETS, HIDING FROM GODS' WRATH. GO TO TEMPLE, GET PARTY SECOND CLERIC. GODS LIKE CLERIC, CLERIC AM WINNING.

there is also the first level spell Aram Zey's focus. it gives you trapfinding (as the rogue ability) for a minute per level. it's on quite a few arcane lists, as well as the alchemist's. it's great if you don't intend to take 20.

I'm sure all these non-rogue ways of dealing with traps work, but my mental picture of a Rogue is a guy with lockpicks jammed between his teeth muumbling "Red Rune or Blue Rune?"

Some of these archetypes are interesting if weak, but I don't think I want to give up trapfinding to get them.

My honest opinion is the Rogue is still weak if none of these archetypes didn't force you to trade in any class features to get their benefits.

Still not getting the "OH GOD, the Traps, the Traps!" thing I hear, that somehow requires a trap specialist.

Who runs into this many, and deadly of traps to require such a focus?

This must be a 2nd edition thing. It's my only explanation.

There are occassional trap heavy campaigns. But just like any other 'player handbook information' that fact could be announced up front. Even without that any PC can find traps and by using detect magic can find magic traps.

Trapfinding is overrated nowadays.

- Gauss

Still not getting the "OH GOD, the Traps, the Traps!" thing I hear, that somehow requires a trap specialist.

Who runs into this many, and deadly of traps to require such a focus?

This must be a 2nd edition thing. It's my only explanation.

My experience with traps is that they're just sort of something you "Outlevel" like climbing and stuff like that. At low levels, they can be dangerous, but from mid to high levels, you just have too many tools in your toolbelt for a trap to pose a challenge.

Plus, there's an archetype for almost every class that can Trapfind. Trapper Ranger, Archaeologist Bard, Seeker Oracle/Sorcerer, Crypt Breaker Alchemist...

Some seem to really press the issue that you must have a trap guy.

All evidence I can find, seems to point to this not being true at all.

When PF removed the DC 20+ restriction on non-rogues finding traps it basically made trapfinding not necessary to party composition. Add in cheap summon monsters and traps are easily dealt with. Traps are no longer the problem they used to be. The CRs are too high too.

- Gauss

BSF! Go disable the trap with your pisspoor will save! Oh crap! The BSF is trying to kill us! RUN!

Sorry, my Evil GM side popped in for a visit for a moment there.

- Gauss

Except, in PF, anyone can use Perception to find and identify ANY sort of trap.

So as long as you found the trap, you'd know what it does, or at least a good enough idea, to know not to send in the low will save BSF for *this* trap. Even if finding a trap doesn't ID what it is and how it's sprung (which should be what "finding it" does...), detect magic is at will. It pings "enchantment," you tell Mr. Low Will to stand the F back.

That isnt what I was saying StreamOfTheSky. If you will look at the post I was referencing the BSF was disabling the trap with his HITPOINTS. I was commenting why that is a bad idea.

Also: Where does it say that a perception check allows you to determine all of the function of a magic trap? I have yet to find that anywhere. What I can find is this:

Beating this check by 5 or more also gives some indication of what the trap is designed to do.

Note: 'some indication' is not the same as exact effect.

- Gauss

Aren't there already a number of anti-trap spells?

Still not getting the "OH GOD, the Traps, the Traps!" thing I hear, that somehow requires a trap specialist.

Who runs into this many, and deadly of traps to require such a focus?

This must be a 2nd edition thing. It's my only explanation.

In my AD&D/2nd Ed days traps were like a dime a dozen. In 3.0/3.5 it seemed like the people who designed dungeons forgot traps for the most part. Sad really, cause I love my Grimtooth's Traps books.

Aren't there already a number of anti-trap spells?

Such as?

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Aren't there already a number of anti-trap spells?

Such as?

Well, there is Find Traps, Aram Zey’s Trap Ward, Sift, Aram Zey’s Focus, and Mage's Disjunction.

I'm not sure that I would group one of the best 9th level spells in the game as an anti-trap spell, but other than that, yeah.

I'm sure all these non-rogue ways of dealing with traps work, but my mental picture of a Rogue is a guy with lockpicks jammed between his teeth muumbling "Red Rune or Blue Rune?"

RED RUNE, BLUE RUNE, CLERIC AM THE ONE WITH THE GOD.

Cool caps lock bro.

Traps used to be TPK back in earlier editions. So you HAD to have a rogue. But between the assumption of rogue as skillmonkey in third. the compression of the skill list in PF the expansion of other classes with lots of skills and the insult of the ninjas and vivisectionist the rogue is dying. At least the fighter still wins dpr. There's almost no rogue idea that cant be better optimized in another class.