Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

PaizoCon 2014!

Players using additional resources they do not own


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

101 to 150 of 233 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Andoran ****

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ZomB wrote:
Seriously? The volunteers who give the most are being given less slack than everyone else. Shouldn't they be given way more slack?

Have you looked at the requirements for those positions? They are less volunteers and more employees.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Venture Officers, yes.

All you need to do to become a 5-star GM is run a lot of different games (including the specials and exclusive scenarios). Don't even need to be particularly good at it.

Andoran ****

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But the requirements to maintain that fifth star approach employee requirements.


Hmmm, well I wonder if individual pages ripped out of a book are allowed. It doesn't prove individual ownership but it does save on weight space.

*Carries on musing*

Grand Lodge **

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
So how does one tell the xeroxed pages of my ultimate combat that i left at home because my lead minis are pushing my encumberence limit, from the xeroxed copies of ultimate combat that i never bought?

How does one tell the difference between a copy of Ultimate Combat that's been bought legitimately, and a copy that was shoplifted?

Lantern Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
ZomB wrote:
Seriously? The volunteers who give the most are being given less slack than everyone else. Shouldn't they be given way more slack?
Have you looked at the requirements for those positions? They are less volunteers and more employees.

The paychecks are somewhat lacking though. David Santana runs a meetup in Manhattan that requires the purchase of table space. He is pretty much consistently in the red when it comes to the players kicking in for the expense. Fact of the matter is volounteering for Paizo, does not only cost time,it's frequently a money cost as well.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Lab_Rat wrote:
Winter_Born wrote:

Clearly we need exacting rulings from Brock here.

We have five star GMs and Venture folks completely disagreeing, and IMO some unneeded rudeness on display.

Both Mike and Mark have chimed in on this specific issue in the past. Read the thread...people posted links to those quotes. Both Mike and Mark are on the lenient side of the fence.

I have been reading. If this is so cut and dry why so many varied GM styles?

Again there needs to be a definitive ruling.

Andoran ****

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
The paychecks are somewhat lacking though. David Santana runs a meetup in Manhattan that requires the purchase of table space. He is pretty much consistently in the red when it comes to the players kicking in for the expense. Fact of the matter is volounteering for Paizo, does not only cost time,it's frequently a money cost as well.

None of that contradicts what I said.

Cheliax *

Chris Mortika wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
If everybody in your group wants the supplemental rules material from (a) book, you should all obtain legal copies of it.
JohnF wrote:

Again, I'm not in any way an official voice. But I believe that's a little stronger than I've seen posted. IIRC, even Mike Brock has suggested that a group of friends who always play at the same table can share a single copy of a book (although, naturally, Paizo would prefer it if everybody had their own copies of at least the main rulebooks). It's only if they play at different tables at the same time that multiple copies would definitely be required.

Agreed. If Victor's group all plays at the same table -- either in a home PFS campaign or always plays together at a convention, then the owner of the PDF is always there, and I don't believe that's a problem at all. I apologize for overstating that. I was under the impression that Victor wanted to print out multiple copies and give a copy to all his friends to use, and that's what I was identifying as an abuse.

So if I can't make a PFS game at my local comic shop, is it okay to lend a copy of my PDF printout to my friends so that they can still play their characters?


Victor Zajic wrote:


So if I can't make a PFS game at my local comic shop, is it okay to lend a copy of my PDF printout to my friends so that they can still play their characters?

By the rules? No.

*

Victor Zajic wrote:
So if I can't make a PFS game at my local comic shop, is it okay to lend a copy of my PDF printout to my friends so that they can still play their characters?

Digital pdf's are a lot trickier than actual books. No one would think twice if you lent your friend the physical book to use at their game. However, when you are talking about a pdf copy of the book, printing off a copy of the book for a friend is pretty dang close if not actually copyright infringement. The line has to be drawn somewhere and most table GMs would draw it here.

Grand Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Saint Caleth wrote:
Also, I might have misunderstood, but some people earlier seemed to be advocating the DM refusing to allow a player to reference the DM's book that is sitting right there on the table. I just want to point out that if that were truly the rule, the correct thing to do would be to disregard it because it seems unacceptable to me from a "being a decent human being" standpoint. This leads me to think that I misunderstood, and I apologize to anyone I might have misunderstood, I just wanted to get my thoughts out there.

A GM is under no obligation to share his books with a player. Just as a player is under no obligation to share their books with the GM.

Being a decent human being does not require the person to share their copy of a commonly available resource in order to play a game.

There are many acceptable reasons for not sharing.

A GM may feel the player does not have the same respect for the GM's property as in returning said property with pen marks, permanent finger smudges, ripped pages, etc.

A GM may have loaned out a book only to discover that the player must have packed it up in his bag and left. When the GM does not know the player, the GM may never see that book again. Among friends it may just be an inconvenience of a month or 6 - until the GM sees that player again AND the player has remembered to bring the book. For a player this doesn't really mean anything, but if the GM runs games most every week, being without that book could be more than a simple inconvenience.

Or it could be as simple as letting a player take a quick look at a book for "just a sec" only to need the book an hour later and have to stop the game while the GM's book is located after traveling around the table as an extra player reference.

GM: Is that my book?
P1: No this is mine.
GM: Could everyone check their books? My name is in the inside cover.
- A few blank stares from the players -
- others continue a side conversation -
- until everyone realizes what the GM said and that he is serious -
- players 2 and 3 who also have copies of the book open theirs and show the GM his name is not there -
- player 1 has not checked and after the GM is staring at him to look, finally checks only to respond -
P1: Oh, this is your book, sorry. Hey where's mine?

Yes, I have experienced ALL of these on multiple occasions. As the GM your mind is on a thousand different things. Why should keeping track of my books be one of them when it doesn't have to be?

I apologize if the tone of this post is a little gruff. I'm just trying to make a point.

Grand Lodge *****

Thefurmonger wrote:
Victor Zajic wrote:


So if I can't make a PFS game at my local comic shop, is it okay to lend a copy of my PDF printout to my friends so that they can still play their characters?
By the rules? No.

I'm not sure what Paizo's feeling is about this, but we are allowed to print copies of PFS scenarios and loan them to a GM who doesn't own a copy of the PDF as long as we get the copy back after they run the game.

"Loaning" out digital copies of PDF files is definitely not OK with Paizo.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

LazarX wrote:
The paychecks are somewhat lacking though. David Santana runs a meetup in Manhattan that requires the purchase of table space. He is pretty much consistently in the red when it comes to the players kicking in for the expense. Fact of the matter is volounteering for Paizo, does not only cost time,it's frequently a money cost as well.

Tangent

Spoiler:
I'd chip in, but then I always buy something when we play at a FLGS even if it's just a set of dice or a box of minis.

Last time I played at a house I had my Wendy's and said "The bad news is I didn't bring enough for the class. The good news is I have money if we order pizza."

That's just gamer ettequette, even for home games.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

My two C-bills.

I normally print out the entire scenario (thank you work for your lovely printers) and try to have all the abilities down. Wrath was my first season 4 adventure, and fortunately the VC was on hand to help look up some of the domain powers since a) I missed them on the read through and b) I was/am still fighting a head cold.*

That said, as a player and GM, I have my mini with me, and the PDF up and running. I use Hero Lab for when I play, but not as the primary source. I *can* look up brand for Dexios on Herolab if need be, but if the GM wants the 'primary source' I can pull up the PDF. Herolab makes it easier since I can hover over the spell/trait/item and see the sourcebook.

When I'm GMing, again I have all the PDFs on hand, but if player a says "I have obscure ability Y it's in book Z can you look it up?" my willingness to look it up will sorely depend on how many PDFs I'm using.

If I'm GMing and the player says "I have ability X" I ask how it works, and they can't produce a source or even what book it's from then I know how it works.... it doesn't.

*

Spoiler:
Special thanks to the players for putting up with the cold and the dog. If Mike hadn't been there, I'd just not have used the ability.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean H wrote:
What happens if the ability is something used for balance, such as the Oracle curses in BoFiends and BoAngels? "I'm sorry, but I can't allow you to use your curse." sounds really strange, if amusing.

The GM should make up their own curse; something painful, embarrassing and/or debilitating.

GM : "Your Suppurating Piles prevent you making the horseback ride to the scenario location..."

*****

6 people marked this as a favorite.

My general rule of thumb is that I assume the player has the necessary resource to support the choices they have made for their character. If they don't and no-one at the table has the resource then to bad, they can't use the "x". I'm not going to be the judge and jury over what is a legal resource or not, that isn't what I feel my position is as the GM.

I personally don't care (and I know this is probably bad compared to what has been said) if it's a photocopy of the book or not. I have all the books, and quite honestly I spent the money on the hardcover and I'm not necessarily going to spend the money on the PDF, so if I have a photocopy from the book that I own and someone were to tell me that my character was illegal and that they were confiscating my photocopy quite honestly I'd probably tell them where they can stick their attitude and get up and walk away from the table.

If a GM is going to be that big of a jerk over a photocopy then I'm sure I wouldn't have fun playing at their table anyway. I'd rather go w/out playing than to play at a table with someone who is that big of a jerk.

If Paizo wants me to police what people are using for resources then they can pay me.

My job as a GM is to present as well of a prepared scenario as I can, not to police copywrite laws

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
Don't even need to be particularly good at it.

What are you trying to say Chris? ;-)

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
If everybody in your group wants the supplemental rules material from that book, you should all obtain legal copies of it.

As unpopular as it may be, I wholeheartedly agree.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Illinois—Carbondale aka Disturbed1

Kyle Baird wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
If everybody in your group wants the supplemental rules material from that book, you should all obtain legal copies of it.
As unpopular as it may be, I wholeheartedly agree.

Same.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Seth Gipson wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
If everybody in your group wants the supplemental rules material from that book, you should all obtain legal copies of it.
As unpopular as it may be, I wholeheartedly agree.
Same.

Qualified Same (Exception for couples, and minors.)

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:
Qualified Same (Exception for couples, and minors.)

My wife has all the books she needs for her character. Of course there's a reason she's level 13 and a CRB only build. I certainly don't expect couples to have multiple copies of obscure companion books, but I think it's very helpful if each player owns their own hard covers. It instills a greater sense of ownership for their character.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

4 people marked this as a favorite.

My local groups have been expressing the beginning of disinterest in the game, balking at the cost of books, PDFs, hero lab, etc.

There should come a time after a book has been out long enough that players too can use the PRD as a resource.

I'm never going to be a copywrite enforcer for paizo , ill give up GMing society games before that happens. I do everything I can to lighten the load of my gaming bag, especially at conventions or when I need to travel.

I'm all for a rule like having the material in print or digital so that it's there for the GM if they're unfamiliar with it. But enforcing one book or PDF per person as needed goes beyond big brother and goes more into spoiling the fun of the game.

Qadira ** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

No one is expected to be copyright enforcer. Doing this is just bad in a lot of ways. As far as I know "enforcing Paizo Copyright" is not listed in the description of GM responsibilities. I don't police this for the same reason I don't audit character sheets at the table, because 9 times out of 10 when you catch someone out, you wind up embarrassing and frustrating a player who made an honest mistake and they are less likely to come back.

That said... if you are playing the game and enjoying the benefits of content Paizo pays to create for you, you should pay for it. If you don't want to pay for content, don't use it. In most cases, the cost of the content you are using costs less than your game-day snacks or the gas you burn getting to and from the game which you are too cheap to support*.

There are definitely people who struggle to afford to participate in the game and I have no problems with them borrowing content or whatever. That said, when you spent $5-15 per week in gas and grub to go to a game and complain about spending $8 on a supplement you are going to use dozens of times, it's just weak.

*:
Yeah, I'm biased. Strangely I like the dishwasher wages I get for the content I produce.

*****

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Dennis Baker wrote:

No one is expected to be copyright enforcer. Doing this is just bad in a lot of ways. As far as I know "enforcing Paizo Copyright" is not listed in the description of GM responsibilities. I don't police this for the same reason I don't audit character sheets at the table, because 9 times out of 10 when you catch someone out, you wind up embarrassing and frustrating a player who made an honest mistake and they are less likely to come back.

That said... if you are playing the game and enjoying the benefits of content Paizo pays to create for you, you should pay for it. If you don't want to pay for content, don't use it. In most cases, the cost of the content you are using costs less than your game-day snacks or the gas you burn getting to and from the game which you are too cheap to support*.

There are definitely people who struggle to afford to participate in the game and I have no problems with them borrowing content or whatever. That said, when you spent $5-15 per week in gas and grub to go to a game and complain about spending $8 on a supplement you are going to use dozens of times, it's just weak.

** spoiler omitted **

Dennis, I completely understand what you're saying and I wholeheartedly support Paizo and buy the more expensive hardcover books over the pdfs. However, when I travel for gaming and the majority of that travel is conventions (case in point this October/November where I have three conventions), having someone tell me that it is illegal for me to have a photocopy from the book I own because a photocopy is a lot easier to haul than all the books; and that they would declare my character illegal, I have a small issue with that.

We all are involved in this game to have fun, it's a hobby, a way to pass time in an enjoyable way. I don't understand the mindset behind purposefully looking for ways to ruin others fun by being a giant jerk about a photocopy.

Personally I'm happy if "someone" at the table as the information; preferably the player needing to provide the information to the GM; but in general if someone has the information I'm happy.

I don't understand why this has turned into such a contested topic. I don't understand why people have to create problems where there really isn't that big of an issue or one at all.

I've said this before and I'll say it again... this is a game, we play this for fun not for the headaches created by a few with nothing better to do. It's a game, let it be a game.


It looks like you can't play in PFS using a friend's copy of the rulebooks or a book from the library. You learn something new each day.

Cheliax ****

Dragnmoon wrote:

One thing you need to be careful with "Sharing" PDFs with friends, It is ok to Share your PDF reader with them (iPad, Kindle Fire), it is not ok to share your PDF with them by giving them to you friend.

Exceptions of that are made for family members in the same household (Husband, Wife, Daughter or Son).

I'd be interested to know the legal basis for this comment.

If Paizo is realistically claiming that I can't hand my friend a version of the electronic copy to use (even if I bought it for him) or lend a printed version to a friend for use then we have a problem as this is not explicit. Furthermore, this would violate my legal right as a customer to use the property as I see fit. The actual rule to only print it off once I believe is not viable under Australian Law as far as I can tell - as the right to backup copies of a purchase are enshrined.

My understanding is that I don't have the right to the copyright, but I do have the right to access and use my PDF. Sometimes consumer rights are forgotten in this. The laws are very fuzzy on this and I would be very careful before I said anything like this at a table.

Not that I am in any way endorsing people infringe copyright, and I want folks to buy Paizo's books, but lets not go about bandying such comments to players unless we know we are legally correct.

Cheliax ****

Kyle Baird wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
If everybody in your group wants the supplemental rules material from that book, you should all obtain legal copies of it.
As unpopular as it may be, I wholeheartedly agree.

If me and my flatmate both want to play borderlands together on a console, we don't buy two copies of the game for my PS3, we buy one.

If we want an UE, we buy one - not two. We share our gaming stuff. We both have access to a legal copy FYI. Whose it is is irrelevant. It is legal.

*

David Metcalfe wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:

One thing you need to be careful with "Sharing" PDFs with friends, It is ok to Share your PDF reader with them (iPad, Kindle Fire), it is not ok to share your PDF with them by giving them to you friend.

Exceptions of that are made for family members in the same household (Husband, Wife, Daughter or Son).

I'd be interested to know the legal basis for this comment.

If Paizo is realistically claiming that I can't hand my friend a version of the electronic copy to use (even if I bought it for him) or lend a printed version to a friend for use then we have a problem as this is not explicit. Furthermore, this would violate my legal right as a customer to use the property as I see fit. The actual rule to only print it off once I believe is not viable under Australian Law as far as I can tell - as the right to backup copies of a purchase are enshrined.

My understanding is that I don't have the right to the copyright, but I do have the right to access and use my PDF. Sometimes consumer rights are forgotten in this. The laws are very fuzzy on this and I would be very careful before I said anything like this at a table.

Not that I am in any way endorsing people infringe copyright, and I want folks to buy Paizo's books, but lets not go about bandying such comments to players unless we know we are legally correct.

Its not a matter of legality. What we are haggling over here is the campaign rules. You are correct that most of the things discussed here like sharing a book, or sharing a printed PDF or even sharing a tablet with PDFs on it are completely legal, but some DMs are still objecting to them.

With the PDFs though, it is not a matter of the law, but of whatever Paizo policies you agree to when purchasing a PDF. I guarantee you that you are not outright buying it, like most electronic goods it is not yours in the way that a physical good would be. I suppose that if you live in a place with explicit consumer protections, it would be impossible for Paizo to punish you for breaking the rules they made up, were they inclined to.

In any case this is not about real laws, only campaign rules, even if some of the people here seem to have very strange understandings of what is actually legal or illegal.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

I don't see were this idea that it is a problem with photocopied parts of the books are a problem.

What they really don't want seeing is someone showing up with a Printout or electronic copy of a PDF with a name of someone other then the person who is using it.

There are exceptions made of lending out the printout to a friend if you are also at the table, but there are no exceptions made other then household family sharing an electronic copy of a PDF.

*

Dragnmoon wrote:

I don't see were this idea that it is a problem with photocopied parts of the books are a problem.

What they really don't want seeing is someone showing up with a Printout or electronic copy of a PDF with a name of someone other then the person who is using it.

There are exceptions made of lending out the printout to a friend if you are also at the table, but there are no exceptions made other then household family sharing an electronic copy of a PDF.

There are multiple people who have stated that they would deal rather harshly with people trying to use photocopies from the book, so it is a problem if people are taking that attitude.

Also, friends are definitely allowed to share a PDF if they are at the same table, it is if they are at different tables that there is a potential problem.

Shadow Lodge ** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

Dragnmoon wrote:

I don't see were this idea that it is a problem with photocopied parts of the books are a problem.

What they really don't want seeing is someone showing up with a Printout or electronic copy of a PDF with a name of someone other then the person who is using it.

So you're OK with a name on a PDF being required to show ownership, but yet you'd allow photocopied pages of a book without any such proof-of-ownership?

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
JohnF wrote:
So you're OK with a name on a PDF being required to show ownership, but yet you'd allow photocopied pages of a book without any such proof-of-ownership?

Yes, because there are different Rule for Hard Copies of books then electronic ones. While I can sell my Physical copy of a book that diminishes (But not fully removes) the need to show ownership of the book because legally I can do what ever I want with the book to include selling it or giving it to a friend. I can even make photocopies for my personal use. Though legally I can't photocopy a full book and give it to a friend (Though I can lend it), as a GM I have no way of proving ownership on it so I will automatically go for the player since that will be the majority. Since you can't Sell a copy or even give a copy of an electronic PDf to a friend the rules to not apply the same.

Lending a electronic copy of a PDF is a dangerous thing to do, if that person was to purposely or even accidently lose it out into the "interweb" wild they very strongly chance losing their Paizo account and access to all PDFs.

Cheliax ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

As a GM I only care about one thing with regards to this and thats simply can I figure out what this does from a legitimate looking source right here and right now at this table, if I dont already know what it does.

This means to me

1. A hard copy book possessed by anyone at the table (or easily accessible if its not here right now as in under 2 minutes to get it here and on the right page for the rule)

2. A PDF on someones Ipad, phone, or other electronic device (please make sure you charge it before coming to the event).

3. A print out from the PDF, or a photocopy of the relevant textbook pages.

If I have any one of these things im happy to let the player use their ability because I know what it does and thats all that really matters at the table, if you cant satisfy any of the 3 criterion above then if I dont know what it does personally (an example is clear spindle ioun stones, pretty much everyone in my area knows what they do and as they are no longer core assumption I wont suddenly be requiring people to bring in their copies of seeker of secrets all the time as I know what it does), I wont allow you to use it right now, later on if you have the source with you im more than willing to allow you to use it.

Maybe im not as harsh as I could be but remember everyone plays for fun, and diminishing peoples fun for no purpose other than to be "right" isnt the point of playing a game.

Grand Lodge *****

PDFs are watermarked with the owner's name and email. When you buy a PDF you are buying the right to use a copy of the file for your personal use.

It is not OK to make a copy of that file and give it to someone else. Letting someone borrow your laptop or tablet with the file on it is cool as long as they don't "steal" the file by making a copy for themselves.

Paizo is cool about loaning a printed copy of the PDF to someone as long as they return it after the game (and you are not also using your file at the same time). Just like lending someone your hardcopy book.

Basically, if Paizo finds your copy of the PDF out there on the internet, they will probably remove access to your downloads and choose not to sell you anymore PDFs.

Cheliax ****

Just to clarify my position - I am commenting merely on assumptions by GMs on what is considered 'legal'.

The fact that players should have legal copies is not disputed by me. As a VL my job is to ensure that, and if I catch someone with some dodgy sourced info, and they can't provide it I will blast them.

@Saint Caleth, I am aware I am not outright purchasing a copy, but I am outright purchasing right of access to a copy. GMs should be aware of that before they accuse a player of cheating because a watermark is different. I know I could have been accused thusly, and wrongly too.

Qadira ** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Dennis, I completely understand what you're saying and I wholeheartedly support Paizo and buy the more expensive hardcover books over the pdfs. However, when I travel for gaming and the majority of that travel is conventions (case in point this October/November where I have three conventions), having someone tell me that it is illegal for me to have a photocopy from the book I own because a photocopy is a lot easier to haul than all the books; and that they would declare my character illegal, I have a small issue with that.

I'm totally with you. This is another reason I don't play the part of copyright militia.

Shadow Lodge ** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

While I'm not going to demand to see every resource a character uses, I'm likely to pose a followup question if I ask to see the description of an ability or item and I'm presented with a photocopy of a page from a rulebook, or a PDF/printout marked with a name other than that of a player at the table. Most of the time there's a perfectly reasonable explanation (such as: it's a photocopy I made from my own rulebook).

Even if I am not satisfied with the answer given, the most I would do is take the player aside and ask that the feat or item simply not be used during that scenario - I would not be comfortable confiscating personal property from a player (not to mention that I believe it may well be of questionable legality for me to do so).

Silver Crusade **

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ok, so I just read this entire thread from the beginning, and I'm amazed at how many people here are talking about playing copyright police at the table.

Seriously? If I show up with a photocopy of a feat description from Inner Sea World Guide, because the hardback book would be too much to carry on top of my hardback Core Rulebook, Advanced Players Guide, half a dozen splat books, printout of the Guide to Organized Play, folder full of PCs and chronicles, printouts of individual pages of PDFs of other books with my name in the watermark, dice, minis, pencils, etc that I always have with me when I play PFS, then some of you wouldn't let me play a PC who is based on that feat?

That's not a hypothetical question - I made photocopies of the Varisian Tattoo and Dervish Dance feats from ISWG and use them as bookmarks on the Tattooed Sorcerer and Dawnflower Dervish pages of Inner Sea Magic, which I always have with me when I play. ISM is a small enough book to carry every time - ISWG isn't. If someone wouldn't let me play my Tattooed Sorcerer or Dawnflower Dervish PCs because those photocopies don't prove ownership of a hardback book that I paid full price for at a local gaming store, I'd walk out and refuse to play with that GM again.

As several others have said, the point of the rule is to make sure the GM has a legit copy of the rule in front of them to check the wording and see what it does. That's all I care about as a GM. If someone shows up at my table without the necessary resource for their PC, and nobody else has a copy they can borrow, then I can see refusing to let them use the rule from that book.

But the couple of people in this thread who care where the copy of the book came from need to go back and reread the "Don't be a jerk" rule from page 5 of the Guide to Organized Play.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

JohnF, I agree with your first point. II ask about things that look illegal, and if someone tells me they're using copies from a book they own, I take them at their word. And there's nothing wrong with them doing that; those are perfectly legitimate examples of making a copy for personal use. (They can't use it as a reference at the table, those are the rules, but there's nothing illegal about them making a copy!)

But when I notice photocopies, or PDFs with someone else's name, I have asked people about them, and when they tell me that a friend / their Venture Officer / whomever gave them the material, then I'm put in a difficult situation.

--

Maybe this is where I disagree with some of my friends here.

--

When I say "confiscate" what I mean is, I explain that, by the rules of the campaign, they can't use that material at the table without either (a) the watermarked PDF, or (b) the physical book, and I ask for the illegal copies. This has happened 3 times in almost 1200 players. If, at that point, someone were to refuse, I would ask them to leave the table. That's never happened; in all three cases, they've taken five minutes (on-line or at a dealer's table) and purchased a legal copy of the work.

I agree, John, that it would be a terrible mess if any GM just tried to seize the material somebody else brought to a con.

But I try to make decisions based on what's best for the campaign, and what the campaign coordinators would want. If the word comes down from Mike or Vic that pirated PDFs are okay, then I'll allow them. But I feel that it's part of my job as GM to educate the players in the rules of the campaign, and that it's part of my duty to my fellow GMs to attend to the matter when it hits my table, rather than allowing it to slide -- "you know, you're not supposed to use that, but I'll let you do so today" -- to the next GM, who has the same uncomfortable call, backed with "well, that other GM knew what it was, and he said it would be okay if I used it at his table." Letting things slide makes it harder for my fellow table judges.

--

I'm not the Pathfinder Society police. If someone wants to go out and rip another copy off a bittorrent site, or borrow somebody else's stuff and make more copies, that's none of my business. What goes on at my table, though, is my business.

Lantern Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Don Walker wrote:

PDFs are watermarked with the owner's name and email. When you buy a PDF you are buying the right to use a copy of the file for your personal use.

It is not OK to make a copy of that file and give it to someone else. Letting someone borrow your laptop or tablet with the file on it is cool as long as they don't "steal" the file by making a copy for themselves.

Paizo is cool about loaning a printed copy of the PDF to someone as long as they return it after the game (and you are not also using your file at the same time). Just like lending someone your hardcopy book.

Basically, if Paizo finds your copy of the PDF out there on the internet, they will probably remove access to your downloads and choose not to sell you anymore PDFs.

I have my Paizo library on my iPhone. I also have it PIN locked and after a set number of wrong entries, the phone will wipe itself. I can also remote nuke it from my desktop if needs be.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
David Metcalfe wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
If everybody in your group wants the supplemental rules material from that book, you should all obtain legal copies of it.
As unpopular as it may be, I wholeheartedly agree.

If me and my flatmate both want to play borderlands together on a console, we don't buy two copies of the game for my PS3, we buy one.

If we want an UE, we buy one - not two. We share our gaming stuff. We both have access to a legal copy FYI. Whose it is is irrelevant. It is legal.

Congratulations on purchasing and playing a video game designed to be played by multiple people on the same console. What you can't do, however, is make a copy of your video game and and have your flatmate play with you over xbox live from a different console. That's clearly illegal. The same is true for PFS in that it's not always going to work legally to share a copy of a book. If you go to a convention and play at different tables (think LAN party), sharing the same resource isn't going to work. If you go to different conventions and need to share the same resource (think xbox live), that also isn't legal.

While sharing your gaming resources as you mentioned is legal, it doesn't mean I can't believe that every player should own their own copy of resources they're using.

Shadow Lodge ** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

Chris Mortika wrote:
I feel that it's part of my job as GM to educate the players in the rules of the campaign, and that it's part of my duty to my fellow GMs to attend to the matter when it hits my table, rather than allowing it to slide -- "you know, you're not supposed to use that, but I'll let you do so today" -- to the next GM, who has the same uncomfortable call, backed with "well, that other GM knew what it was, and he said it would be okay if I used it at his table.

Or you always have the option of pointing out that they really should get their own copy, rather than relying on somebody else providing it for them - one of these day's they'll end up at a table where nobody has the reference material present in one of the permitted forms. But, fortunately for them, as I have PDFs of all those heavy rulebooks right here on my tablet, I can let them use the ability. That's what I'd do today if Thea or Fromper showed up at my table with just a photocopy.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

After considering for a bit, all this thread has convinced me of is that I will never play PFS, and that I will no longer suggest it to others that I know.

Shadow Lodge ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

That's good.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

JohnF wrote:

Or you always have the option of pointing out that they really should get their own copy, rather than relying on somebody else providing it for them - one of these day's they'll end up at a table where nobody has the reference material present in one of the permitted forms. But, fortunately for them, as I have PDFs of all those heavy rulebooks right here on my tablet, I can let them use the ability. That's what I'd do today if Thea or Fromper showed up at my table with just a photocopy.

John,

I too have all the PDFs on my mini, but if I'm running, I will have the adventure, the CRB, the Bestiary(ies) and (after learning my lesson) the Herolab PDFs for any NPCs. If player A doesn't have the text for trait Y from Book Z, my mini's processor is too overtaxed to pull up another PDF to look it up, let alone "I don't know what book it's from, my brother Billy who's not here suggested it."

If I'm Playing I might have my mini up, more likely I've printed the descriptions of the spells and the like I need from Herolab and will be using the mini as a quick reference, if at all. I'll have it there (to show I own the resources), but I won't always have it on.

Shadow Lodge ** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

Don't make the mistake of assuming that what you see being discussed here represents the typical PFS table. To take Chris Mortika's examples, he's seen three cases of questionable documentation in 1200 players. That means that if you sat down at a different table of six players every time, with no duplication, you might expect to see one such example every eighty games.

So we're talking about around 1% of the games - the other 99% would be totally unaffected by any of this kind of thing.

Silver Crusade **

Cydeth wrote:
After considering for a bit, all this thread has convinced me of is that I will never play PFS, and that I will no longer suggest it to others that I know.

JohnF beat me to it. This is mostly an academic discussion. It's pretty rare that any of this comes up.

I've played and/or GMed at 4 or 5 conventions now (enough to lose count off the top of my head), plus a few public game days, besides lots of playing with my local group (before I moved). And in all those sessions, the question of someone needing a book with them that they didn't have came up exactly once. And that resulted in the whole table going "Does anyone have Ultimate Magic with them, so I can look this up?" and someone else handing them a laptop.

Which is kinda why it pisses me off that some of the GMs in this thread say they wouldn't allow my photocopied pages of two feats from Inner Sea World Guide, which I do own in hard copy, just because I don't want to drag the whole 320 page book around with me. If I've got the pages from the book that show how the feats work, why do I need the whole book? But again, it's probably just an academic question, as it's never actually been an issue.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
TOZ wrote:
That's good.

Except that it isn't good at all, assuming you were responding to Cydeth. Pathfinder Society is a lot of fun and I have met an amazing group of people in my home town because of it. I also traveled to PaizoCon and had an amazing time, largely due to PFS. Having read this thread I can understand why someone who had never played PFS might come away with a negative opinion of it. There were statements to the effect of 'I would take the photocopy from them and tell them they would have to play a pregen or not play at all.' At least half the posts on this thread have a very draconian feel to them, making PFS sound like an organization with strict rules, severe punishments and place where we like to publicly shame those who intentionally or accidentally break a rule. Yet my experiences both in my home city and at PaizoCon tell me that nothing could be further from the truth.

In my opinion as players, and as GM's (I haven't GMed yet but am scheduled to in the next week or two) we shouldn't be the judge/jury/executioner but rather we should be fellow gamers enjoying a hobby with other gamers. Now I am not so naive as to believe there aren't any cheaters, or people who will try to steal Paizo content but I believe they are the exception rather than the rule.

I also think when you create rules and policies to prevent or expose cheaters but those rules also harm or turn away legitimate players who are trying to enjoy PFS you have in the end done more damage than a cheating player ever could have. Talk to players, explain that they should buy a copy of whatever product they are using but if they have a way of showing you the rules, even if you aren't sure how legitimate it is give them the benefit of the doubt and let everyone have fun at the table.

Shadow Lodge ** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

Matthew Morris wrote:
JohnF wrote:

Or you always have the option of pointing out that they really should get their own copy, rather than relying on somebody else providing it for them - one of these day's they'll end up at a table where nobody has the reference material present in one of the permitted forms. But, fortunately for them, as I have PDFs of all those heavy rulebooks right here on my tablet, I can let them use the ability. That's what I'd do today if Thea or Fromper showed up at my table with just a photocopy.

John,

I too have all the PDFs on my mini, but if I'm running, I will have the adventure, the CRB, the Bestiary(ies) and (after learning my lesson) the Herolab PDFs for any NPCs. If player A doesn't have the text for trait Y from Book Z, my mini's processor is too overtaxed to pull up another PDF to look it up, let alone "I don't know what book it's from, my brother Billy who's not here suggested it."

None of which apply here. There's a photocopied page in front of me that shows me exactly how everything works. If I'm satisfied with the explanation I get from the player, I'm prepared to believe that's identical to the text I'd find if I were to search the PDF on my tablet.

Whether I'd ask Billy's brother not to use the trait is a whole other issue. If he can't tell me what rulebook it comes from, I'm not going to search through every PDF on the tablet. And while I have all the hardbound rulebooks on the tablet, I don't have all the softcovers there, so if the trait comes from something like "Seeker of Secrets" or "Qadira: Gateway to the East" I'm not going to find it anyway.

101 to 150 of 233 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Society® / Pathfinder Society GM Discussion / Players using additional resources they do not own All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.