Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Flowing Monk Advice


Advice


Idea for a Human Flowing Monk.

Feat Progression

1: Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Opening Volley

3: Janni Style

5: Janni Tempest

6: Ki Throw

7: Vicious Stomp

9: Power Attack

10: Medusa's Wrath

I wanted to do something with the monk to increase his chance to hit while taking full advantage of his Flurry. I imagined that, if all things went well, he would begin combat by getting into range and throwing a shurikan. Then on his following turn gain a +4 to his first attack of his flurry of blows, if the target moved into melee or he took the five foot step to get into melee. This would in turn give him a +4 to his Trip attempt during his Flurry. Hopefully the trip works and triggers an AoO from Vicious Stomp and if the attack hits the target is not only prone but flat footed which gives the remaining flurry attacks more of a chance to hit. But for the last attack in the flurry I would have the Monk use a Shurikan in order to begin the whole thing over with +4 on his next attack.

Problems

My attack bonus with ranged weapons would likely be much lower than melee, also prone targets gain a +4 to their AC. I don't have Precise Shot and attempting a ranged attack in melee provokes an AoO. But then again if it is only that target he will be flat-footed.

Is there any way to temperarally boost a ranged with a feat?

Also is there anything I need to consider or change?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That depends on your stats. If you go all out with a strength-based monk, don't bother with ranged. Really, flurrying with shuriken sounds good but 1d2 damage is nothing - you are better off getting in there with a stunning fist.


I don't think ranged is the way to go at all with a Flowing Monk. They're all about getting up in peoples' business and interrupting the normal flow of melee combat, at least in my experience. The short while I had one in my party, the player mixed this archetype with Sacred Mountain and the Crane Style feat chain. He was really good at dodging attacks, and almost as good at performing combat maneuvers (trip and reposition, mostly) with his flurry of blows. He made things a lot easier for both the melee and caster PCs.


I was actually planning on having him to be pretty much full melee, but I was going to use the Shuriken at the very beginning of combat, like when we are facing off, to get bonuses to hit with melee. And also using the Shuriken at the end of his Flurry for the same +4 on all flurry attacks in his next full round action.


You will need to switch combat reflexes for combat expertise if you take improved trip at level 1. That requires an intelligence of 13, which is a heavy investment for what is often a dump stat with monks. A lot players will wait until level 6 when they can their monk bonus feat, as these don't need any prerequisites.

If you do stick with the combat expertise route, you should know that greater trip will stack with vicious stomp, as confirmed here :)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-trip-combat---final


snowelfdruid wrote:

You will need to switch combat reflexes for combat expertise if you take improved trip at level 1. That requires an intelligence of 13, which is a heavy investment for what is often a dump stat with monks. A lot players will wait until level 6 when they can their monk bonus feat, as these don't need any prerequisites.

If you do stick with the combat expertise route, you should know that greater trip will stack with vicious stomp, as confirmed here :)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-trip-combat---final

Not if he uses his monk bonus feat to get Improved Trip.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There's a 3.5 feat that lets you use STR for throwing to-hit, IIRC. Ask your GM if it's usable, assuming you are absolutely sold on Shuriken.

Also, remember. As a Flowing Monk you are a tank in the MMO sense. You draw aggro and punish people for attacking, so you can get away with dealing less damage.

I've been trying to build something with the Archon style, but I digress.

Another option is to go the Weapon Finesse rout and keep your STR to like, 12.

You will also want Fury's Fall if you're a trip-focused build, ideally around level 5.

That said, you are better off throwing nets or tanglefoot bags or moving + trip in almost every instance.


I am playing in a game where Weapon Finesse works with unarmed strikes, and thus, unarmed trips, obviating the need for Fury's Fall. I'm not sure if that is RAW or not.

I really, really wish you could stick a tanglefoot bag on the end of a stick (or each end!), thus allowing Flurry of Bags. Sadly, I can't find a sticky stick weapon.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Brutal Throw is the feat you are thinking of.

How does the flowing monk 'draw aggro'?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

He complains about having 3/4 BAB, causing bags with teeth to attack him.


In seriousness, though, he vaults to the front of melee, gains AC from all the opponents near him, and uses Redirection for the biggest baddest one that attacks him.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I get that (especially the bit about the bag)...but he has no ability if his enemies avoid him to make them attack, and he can't redirect a blow aimed at a friend?


Ultimate Combat wrote:


At 4th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against an opponent that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks an ally with a melee attack

So, just get near your comrades, I suppose, and spank that bad guy when they try to attack your friend. Wasn't this what Dennis Rodman did? :D

There has been plenty of e-ink spilled over how bad guys will choose not to hit the monk, eh? I can only speak to my campaign...so far, they have not shown such discretion. That's a game-to-game variance and worth a discussion with one's GM.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have encountered it. But the flowing monk's ability looks useful, especially if you take it with Combat Patrol to threaten a larger area...


Combat Patrol is cool! However, the Flowing Monk doesn't have fast speed, so you may not be able to zip everywhere you choose.

I don't know what will happen with my Flowing Monk in the future, but I'm hoping I run into a lot of scrum combat--close quarters, lots of baddies. Against a single big opponent...well, we know the monk stories about how effective that is.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Boots of Striding and Leaping, Boots of Speed....


The Flowing Monk can, as an immediate action, use Redirection to punish people for attacking those near him in addition to himself. Combine with Crane or Snake Style and you have a fantastic "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Also, make sure to wield a reach weapon with it. RAW you don't even have to use that weapon for the redirection, but that's obviously the intent, so either massive trip bonuses (Fury's Fall) or proficiency (Tengu) is encouraged.

Fury's Fall combined with Weapon Finesse lets you stack your DEX bonus twice for purposes of Trip. This is nearly essential for levels 5-7 to be an effective tripper against monsters.

Depending on your team composition, Paired Opportunist and/or possibly Greater Trip would be a good investment (might be much too much feat investment, however). If you're planning above level 10, then Greater Trip / Greater Redirection, especially combined with Paired Opportunist are fantastic.

The Flowing Monk cannot take Medusa's Wrath at level 10, it's probably my biggest mark against it. It must take from its modified list. This is particularly a shame because it has the absolute easiest time rendering people flat-footed.

Janni style is really not worth it. You are better off with Crane or Snake style.


Didn't see that Redirection can be used with a (reach) weapon. Nice!

Cheliax

SoulGambit0 wrote:

The Flowing Monk can, as an immediate action, use Redirection to punish people for attacking those near him in addition to himself. Combine with Crane or Snake Style and you have a fantastic "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Also, make sure to wield a reach weapon with it. RAW you don't even have to use that weapon for the redirection, but that's obviously the intent, so either massive trip bonuses (Fury's Fall) or proficiency (Tengu) is encouraged.

Fury's Fall combined with Weapon Finesse lets you stack your DEX bonus twice for purposes of Trip. This is nearly essential for levels 5-7 to be an effective tripper against monsters.

Depending on your team composition, Paired Opportunist and/or possibly Greater Trip would be a good investment (might be much too much feat investment, however). If you're planning above level 10, then Greater Trip / Greater Redirection, especially combined with Paired Opportunist are fantastic.

The Flowing Monk cannot take Medusa's Wrath at level 10, it's probably my biggest mark against it. It must take from its modified list. This is particularly a shame because it has the absolute easiest time rendering people flat-footed.

Janni style is really not worth it. You are better off with Crane or Snake style.

I'm not sure where the post is, but one of the paizo guys said the intent was not to "double dip" with an ability score to raise trip with fury's fall and weapon finesse. You can only add your dex mod once.

Cheliax

I was wondering what people thought about Unbalancing Counter working with Stand Still. The Unbalancing counter just says, "attacks of opportunity render a struck creature flat footed".

The Stand still says, "When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity."

Does anyone else think that a successful Standstill would trigger unbalancing counter?

Quote:

Unbalancing Counter (Ex)

At 2nd level, a flowing monk’s attacks of opportunity render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk’s next turn (Reflex DC 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + Wisdom modifier negates).

This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

Quote:

Stand Still (Combat)

You can stop foes that try to move past you.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes.

Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn. An enemy can still take the rest of his action, but cannot move. This feat also applies to any creature that attempts to move from a square that is adjacent to you if such movement provokes an attack of opportunity.


Veldebrand wrote:


I'm not sure where the post is, but one of the paizo guys said the intent was not to "double dip" with an ability score to raise trip with fury's fall and weapon finesse. You can only add your dex mod once.

Does anyone have citation for this? Because RAW it definitely works.

Cheliax

SoulGambit0 wrote:
Veldebrand wrote:


I'm not sure where the post is, but one of the paizo guys said the intent was not to "double dip" with an ability score to raise trip with fury's fall and weapon finesse. You can only add your dex mod once.

Does anyone have citation for this? Because RAW it definitely works.

Found it, from James Jacobs.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=385?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here#19247

Quote:

blue_the_wolf wrote:

James

are the bonuses from abilities considered bonuses when used to calculate things like BAB, CMD, CMB and other such calculations?

there are a couple situations where its possible to get confused by the rules because they seem to allow you to add the same stat modifier twice.

one example has to do with weapon finesse and the feat called Fury's Fall
** spoiler omitted **
the confusion comes when you attempt to add your DEX bonus to a CMB that has already been calculated using DEX instead of STR because your using a weapon with weapon finesse.

so the core of my question is two fold.

1) Is the bonus you get from an ability modifier (such as the +3 you get from a dexterity score of 16) a typed bonus. in other words is it similar to armor bonus, enhancement bonus, shield bonus and other such bonuses that cant be stacked, or is it an untyped bonus, or a bonus which is specifically stack able.

2) If the ability modifier is a bonus and the bonus is NOT stack able would the wording of fury's fall which basically says that the DEX bonus is added to CMB mean that the DEX is added to CMB even after CMB is calculated using DEX instead of STR?

Modifiers from ability scores aren't actually bonuses, strictly speaking. If they are, they're untyped bonuses—which means they stack with all other bonuses except themselves. Thus, if you have multiple things that say "Add your Dex modifier to this roll," you only get to add your Dex modifier once.

So, to answer the actual question:

1) Nope; it's not a typed bonus. It stacks with all other modifiers, but can't stack with itself.

2) If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects. You don't get to add your Dexterity modifier more than once to CMB if it's already been included due to any other effect. SO! If you have Weapon Finesse... you'll only want to look at taking Fury's Fall if you're expecting to be using weapons you can't modifier via Weapon Finess to make trip attacks. Otherwise, Fury's Fall is a waste for you.


Huh. I stand corrected. Although you could simply opt to not use Weapon Finesse on that attack. Means that Fury's Fall is really only worth it if you have high STR and Dex.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Flowing Monk Advice All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.