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Critique a rogue build?


Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

The character is a female elven thief. The idea is a quick mind and a quick blade, too quick at times and with an even sharper tongue than her knife. She's primarily a combat character who will be paired with a reach-wielding Barbarian as the party's two melee types. She's be the primary 'skill' character but not the group's face.

I figured focus at first on the ability to get in a good sneak attack every round and then later use those extra feats for some two-handed fighting/critical action since her strength will not be very high.

Elven 20th level Knife Master & Scout
Darkvision, Envoy, Fleet-Footed alternative racial traits

Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR 10
DEX 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)
CON 12 (-2 racial bonus)
INT 16 (+2 racial bonus)
WIS 10
CHA 8

Feats/Rogue Talents:
1st - Weapon Finesse
2nd - Talent: Minor Magic – Ghost Sound
3rd - Dodge
4th - Talent: Major Magic – Minor Image
5th - Mobility
6th - Talent: Offensive Defense
7th - Spring Attack
8th - Talent: Weapon Training - Dagger/Knife
9th - Two-Weapon Fighting
10th - Advanced Talent: Opportunist
11th - Improved Critical – Dagger/Knife
12th - Advanced Talent: Hunter’s Surprise
13th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
14th - Advanced Talent: Improved Evasion
15th - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16th - Advanced Talent: Fast Tumble
17th - Critical Focus
18th - Advanced Talent: Redirect Attack
19th - Staggering Critical
20th - Advanced Talent: Feat (??)

She'll be using the elven favored class option for Rogues for a total of eight levels, allowing her eventual use of Ghost Sound 7/day and Silent Image 6/day which should be enough, I think. I'm not really sold on my last few advanced talents - I thought maybe going with a familiar and then taking the Improved familiar feat for something like a psuedo dragon, but I wasn't sure if there would be any utility beyond role-play, especially at higher levels...

Any comments or advice would be most welcome.


No Dispelling Attack? After you took Minor and Magic Magic talents? I guess you cold take it at 20, but it seems kind of late.

Then again it seems kind of crappy now.

" Dispelling Attack (Su)

Prerequisite: Advanced talents, major magic rogue talent

Benefit: Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. "

I guess it is pretty useless now.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
sunbeam wrote:

No Dispelling Attack? After you took Minor and Magic Magic talents? I guess you cold take it at 20, but it seems kind of late.

Then again it seems kind of crappy now.

" Dispelling Attack (Su)

Prerequisite: Advanced talents, major magic rogue talent

Benefit: Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. "

I guess it is pretty useless now.

Not useless necessarily, but not more useful than Offensive Defense usually is, and situational enough not to warrant a talent expenditure in my opinion... now, if you could get a later talent that acted like a targeted Greater Dispel Magic, that might be worthy something.

I don't know. Like I said, I'm not sold on my later talents - there might be some room there for it, just in case.


Do you really need Greater or even Improved Two Weapon Fighting?

I ask this because with your BAB, even with dex, your chance of hitting isn't going to be good on the later iterative attacks.

I know the CW is that two weapon fighting is best when you have a source of additional damage on the attacks, but it almost seems like it would be better not to use Two Weapon Fighting.

It's different for Fighters with all the to hit bonuses they get, and their higher BAB.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
sunbeam wrote:

Do you really need Greater or even Improved Two Weapon Fighting?

I ask this because with your BAB, even with dex, your chance of hitting isn't going to be good on the later iterative attacks.

I know the CW is that two weapon fighting is best when you have a source of additional damage on the attacks, but it almost seems like it would be better not to use Two Weapon Fighting.

It's different for Fighters with all the to hit bonuses they get, and their higher BAB.

To be honest, the character isn't really designed to stand there making full attack actions... but I didn't really have anything that jumped out at me when it came to those later feats. Once I got Improved Critical, I thought that if I was going to be making a full attack action hoping for a critical or two, why not make 6 attacks instead of 3? Chances are that any roll high enough to crit (16+) will also be high enough to hit, regardless of iterative penalties.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Whx dagger/knife instead of rapier? Throwing?
HOw you get a 16+ crit chance?
As far as i know its either 15 or 17 depending on the weapon with something improving it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:

Whx dagger/knife instead of rapier? Throwing?

HOw you get a 16+ crit chance?
As far as i know its either 15 or 17 depending on the weapon with something improving it.

16+ was a typo - should have been 17+.

Dagger/Knife so that the character qualifies for Knife Master, and because they can be thrown as well as used in melee... but more importantly, because it suits the character's concept - she practically bristles with knives. If I was going to optimize, I might use kukri's instead.


Wow, I never knew that was an alternate elven favored class option.

In her shoes I think I would have taken Vanish as my 1st level spell.

I'd be tempted by True Strike (because sometime I don't want to risk the dice), but Vanish...

Too many uses for a Rogue type.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

I overread the archetypes^^
I was just about to suggest "underhanded", but while reading it again just saw that it also changed quite a bit.
There are too many rogue talents and feats that could be good for rogues which just got so nerved they are way too niche and close to never useable somehow.
Just think of Hellcat Pounce. Always surprise round only stuff, then even without added sneak attack.

If you were optimizing you would play a ninja with wakizashis, which you can´t throw normally, but what can be helped. Some might say you couldn´t take Knife Master then, but in my opinion you could, just replacing the adequate stuff. Kukris are on the asian weapon list as well now.

You start play on lvl 20?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:

I overread the archetypes^^

I was just about to suggest "underhanded", but while reading it again just saw that it also changed quite a bit.
There are too many rogue talents and feats that could be good for rogues which just got so nerved they are way too niche and close to never useable somehow.
Just think of Hellcat Pounce. Always surprise round only stuff, then even without added sneak attack.

If you were optimizing you would play a ninja with wakizashis, which you can´t throw normally, but what can be helped. Some might say you couldn´t take Knife Master then, but in my opinion you could, just replacing the adequate stuff. Kukris are on the asian weapon list as well now.

You start play on lvl 20?

No - I just always plan my builds out to level 20 so that they can be adopted at any point. This one is looking to be an add-on into an existing Skull and Shackles campaign.

Can you link me to all of these changes you're talking about? I was unaware of any recent overhaul to the rules. I tend to do all of my work off of the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ site and as far as we're concerned as a group, what's written there is what is.

Its exhausting to try and keep up with a relentless stream of erratta, some of it quite dramatic which may or may not at any time arbitrarily render 'illegal' a character you've been playing for months or even years. The single-minded, relentless pursuit of 'balance' has ruined more games than it has helped and I just don't have the patience for it anymore...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
sunbeam wrote:

Wow, I never knew that was an alternate elven favored class option.

In her shoes I think I would have taken Vanish as my 1st level spell.

I'd be tempted by True Strike (because sometime I don't want to risk the dice), but Vanish...

Too many uses for a Rogue type.

hadn't really considered that. I've had other characters use Silent Image to such great effect that it just seemed like a no-brainer to me. Vanish could definitely be useful, especially considering that you could probably get its uses up to 10/day eventually... but if you character already has such a high stealth skill, are you getting enough bang for you buck there?


Stealth is very difficult to use in combat. Or in a lot of other situations where you would like to hide and have no cover.

They are supposed to be trying to fix this, but the playtest has been going on since last year with no results as far as I know.

If you can do it so much, it seems like it addresses a lot of problems people have with being able to stealth or get off a sneak attack.

I might add that once you reach 10th level, you could take Quicken Spell Like Ability for your major magic, which is a monster feat but legal for PC's.

Being able to cast Vanish as a swift action could be a lifesaver, or let you get off a sneak attack whenever you want.

And thinking about it, for minor magic if you took Acid Splash as your minor magic, you would get a 1d3 touch attack that isn't affected by spell resistance. I would consider this because Rogues have such a hard time hitting, being able to make a sneak attack as a touch attack would be invaluable, even though this is harder to do at range. Good for ambushing though, or when you actually can use cover.

Thinking about it even further, you could even take Quicken Spell Like Ability for your minor magic when you hit 8th level. Sounds kind of redundant but I could easily see being able to launch two touch sneak attacks in a round coming in handy. That Quicken feat can be taken multiple times, but for different abilities each time.

I think it would be cool and useful, but I am not an experienced Rogue player.


Oh yeah, I just wanted to add I think I would try to take Quickdraw with a build like this. Sometimes you just want to whip a dagger out of a sheath and throw it, or drop your bow and pull out daggers in the blink of an eye.

I've played a lot of melee guys and have always found it useful. A lot of people feel differently and never use it.

It kind of fits the character though.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
sunbeam wrote:

Stealth is very difficult to use in combat. Or in a lot of other situations where you would like to hide and have no cover.

They are supposed to be trying to fix this, but the playtest has been going on since last year with no results as far as I know.

If you can do it so much, it seems like it addresses a lot of problems people have with being able to stealth or get off a sneak attack.

I might add that once you reach 10th level, you could take Quicken Spell Like Ability for your major magic, which is a monster feat but legal for PC's.

Being able to cast Vanish as a swift action could be a lifesaver, or let you get off a sneak attack whenever you want.

And thinking about it, for minor magic if you took Acid Splash as your minor magic, you would get a 1d3 touch attack that isn't affected by spell resistance. I would consider this because Rogues have such a hard time hitting, being able to make a sneak attack as a touch attack would be invaluable, even though this is harder to do at range. Good for ambushing though, or when you actually can use cover.

Thinking about it even further, you could even take Quicken Spell Like Ability for your minor magic when you hit 8th level. Sounds kind of redundant but I could easily see being able to launch two touch sneak attacks in a round coming in handy. That Quicken feat can be taken multiple times, but for different abilities each time.

I think it would be cool and useful, but I am not an experienced Rogue player.

Some really good ideas there - never thought about using a ranged spell attack as a platform to launch a sneak attack, possibly quickened to allow for a full attack immediately afterward... nor that a spell like Vanish could be Quickened via Q-SLA. May well have to incorporate that intot he character concept...

...but there's no way that I know of to be able to deal sneak attack twice in one round apart from Hunter's Surprise.

Sczarni

Trait: River Rat. Swim is a class skill (1rank is all you need to get +4) and +1 to damage with daggers.

Feat: Point Blank Shot for +1 Att/dmg when you throw them.
QuickDraw & TWF helps with the chucking too.

Ninja's a good alternative as well.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

I´m looking up most stuff on this site d20pfsrd, it´s more comfortable and faster when i´m at the PC and most of our books are scattered among our group anyway.

I don´t know how up to date they are with errata, but it kind of sucks and i didn´t look at some feats in the last year or so.
Just remember that some things were different for sure.

Quick draw seems like a good idea.


Me too. I just took another look at the elf race on that site. I found this as an alternate elf racial trait:

"Envoy: Elves often have trouble relating to neighbors of other races, especially those with much shorter lifespans. As a result, some are trained in minor magics that are particularly useful when dealing with non-elves. Elves with this racial trait and an Intelligence score of 11 or higher gain the following spell-like abilities once per day: comprehend languages, detect magic, detect poison, and read magic. The caster level for these effects is equal to the elf's level. This racial trait replaces elven magic."

If you are going to be a straight rogue, and you aren't dumping int this is a no brainer. Heck for any non-caster elf it's probably a no brainer.

I usually shy away from that race due to the con penalty. Might have to rethink my position. Those aren't super major things, but I love to be able to pull stuff out of my posterior.

Just noticed he already had that. I don't have that Advanced Race Guide so what he wrote didn't really register for me.

Not so sure Darkvision is a good idea. Just by the nature of most PC's you will be in situations where there is a light source. Plus low light vision is useful in more situations I think. And you are dazzled in daylight.

You can fix that with an item of course, but you can also get darkvision with an item.

As for Fleetfooted, I dunno. I think I'd rather have a greater chance of being able to act in a surprise round, than a +2 initiative once it has occurred. And the proficiencies are pretty nice for Rogues though the class gets some of them anyway.

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