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Casting spells that have a multiple day or permanent duration.


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Paizo Employee ** Developer

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite.
Alexander_Damocles wrote:
And a ring of counterspell? It doesn't ever cast something out of it, the spell just sits there.

Treat as a staff. Just make sure the original casting to fill the ring is noted on a Chronicle sheet.

Qadira ****

David Haller wrote:

Ring of Counterspell would be empty at the start of the scenario.

Here's the rationale: the ring doesn't "just sit there" - the character has a "life" beyond the time spent in-scenario (hence day job rolls), and it's certainly *possible* the ring was used earlier in the very day the character was called to the Grand Lodge (or wherever).

From a mechanical standpoint, it's simple action economy: spell storing items would effectively "bump up" the character's challenge rating equivalent (he or she can do more in a given interval of time), so it's best disallowed from a game management perspective (in the same way one can't assume that, say, a character has cast an extended Life Bubble the day before, thereby gaining an "extra" high-level spell slot, at least for day one of the scenario).

Considering that most PFS scenarios take place within a single day, allowing long-term pre-buffs and loaded spell storing items from the previous day improves the character for *that* day. It's unbalancing.

not that I have the least interest in this, but I was wondering. If the monster has one of these, can we get him to start the adventure with it empty too?

Qadira ***

Mark Moreland wrote:
Alexander_Damocles wrote:
And a ring of counterspell? It doesn't ever cast something out of it, the spell just sits there.
Treat as a staff. Just make sure the original casting to fill the ring is noted on a Chronicle sheet.

I'm reading a slight difference of opinion here between Mike and Mark (you are talking about slightly different items). Let me see if I've got this right according to Mark:

If my fighter has a ring of counterspell, I can have a friendly wizard cast hold person into it and have it noted on the chronicle, and it's available from then on.

What's the difference between that and a spell storing weapon? Why can't I have a wizard cast vampiric touch into my longsword and note that on my chronicle?

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Or even pay for a caster to have cast the spell into my item (which seems easily done via the rules already in place.

Silver Crusade **

David Haller wrote:

Ring of Counterspell would be empty at the start of the scenario.

Here's the rationale: the ring doesn't "just sit there" - the character has a "life" beyond the time spent in-scenario (hence day job rolls), and it's certainly *possible* the ring was used earlier in the very day the character was called to the Grand Lodge (or wherever).

From a mechanical standpoint, it's simple action economy: spell storing items would effectively "bump up" the character's challenge rating equivalent (he or she can do more in a given interval of time), so it's best disallowed from a game management perspective (in the same way one can't assume that, say, a character has cast an extended Life Bubble the day before, thereby gaining an "extra" high-level spell slot, at least for day one of the scenario).

Considering that most PFS scenarios take place within a single day, allowing long-term pre-buffs and loaded spell storing items from the previous day improves the character for *that* day. It's unbalancing.

Except that a ring of counterspells isn't used. It sits there, stopping an enemy from casting a certain spell on me. That is all it does. If an enemy casts at me...cool, it still is there. How would a ring of counterspells get used up?

***

Alexander_Damocles wrote:
David Haller wrote:

Ring of Counterspell would be empty at the start of the scenario.

Here's the rationale: the ring doesn't "just sit there" - the character has a "life" beyond the time spent in-scenario (hence day job rolls), and it's certainly *possible* the ring was used earlier in the very day the character was called to the Grand Lodge (or wherever).

From a mechanical standpoint, it's simple action economy: spell storing items would effectively "bump up" the character's challenge rating equivalent (he or she can do more in a given interval of time), so it's best disallowed from a game management perspective (in the same way one can't assume that, say, a character has cast an extended Life Bubble the day before, thereby gaining an "extra" high-level spell slot, at least for day one of the scenario).

Considering that most PFS scenarios take place within a single day, allowing long-term pre-buffs and loaded spell storing items from the previous day improves the character for *that* day. It's unbalancing.

Except that a ring of counterspells isn't used. It sits there, stopping an enemy from casting a certain spell on me. That is all it does. If an enemy casts at me...cool, it still is there. How would a ring of counterspells get used up?

No, the spell is gone from the rings once it counterspells; from the rings description in the reference doc:

"Once so used, the spell cast within the ring is gone. A new spell (or the same one as before) may be placed into it again."

Paizo Employee ** Developer

Belafon wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Alexander_Damocles wrote:
And a ring of counterspell? It doesn't ever cast something out of it, the spell just sits there.
Treat as a staff. Just make sure the original casting to fill the ring is noted on a Chronicle sheet.

I'm reading a slight difference of opinion here between Mike and Mark (you are talking about slightly different items). Let me see if I've got this right according to Mark:

If my fighter has a ring of counterspell, I can have a friendly wizard cast hold person into it and have it noted on the chronicle, and it's available from then on.

What's the difference between that and a spell storing weapon? Why can't I have a wizard cast vampiric touch into my longsword and note that on my chronicle?

If you're a caster who expends a resource (a spell slot) during a scenario to fill a ring of counterspells or another spell-storing item, that resource shouldn't simply go away because you didn't use it during that scenario. Mark it on your Chronicle sheet and it's fine. It's assumed you're not in combat between scenarios, so whatever spell you put in it wouldn't go away. Since it was cast during a scenario, it can be tracked, unlike saying at the start of a scenario, "I cast these four extended spells yesterday." Since we don't track resource expenditure (spell slots) in between scenarios, you can't fill a spell-storing item then, but there's no reason you can't during any scenario you are playing.

This is especially true if you pay an NPC to fill a spell-storing item, as you've paid money for that spell to be held in the item. It should thus be treated like a scroll. We don't assume a scroll or potion you buy gets used in downtime, and the same would be true of a spell-storing item from a resource management perspective.

The only exception to this (and I think this is where the confusion is coming from) is when you have another PC fill one of your slots. In this case, the resource wouldn't carry over, since it wasn't your resource (spell slot) to expend, and characters cannot transfer resources to another character.

Shadow Lodge ****

I'm really confused now.

Michael Brock wrote:
Spell storing devices are empty at the start of an adventure.
Mark Moreland wrote:

if you pay an NPC to fill a spell-storing item, as you've paid money for that spell to be held in the item. It should thus be treated like a scroll. We don't assume a scroll or potion you buy gets used in downtime, and the same would be true of a spell-storing item from a resource management perspective.

So Mike Brock says: Spell Storing starts an adventure empty (although makes no comment about other similar items.

Mark Moreland says that they all retain their state except...

Mark Moreland wrote:

The only exception to this (and I think this is where the confusion is coming from) is when you have another PC fill one of your slots. In this case, the resource wouldn't carry over, since it wasn't your resource (spell slot) to expend, and characters cannot transfer resources to another character.

If you have them filled a PC, then they go poof.

----
I know people have a lot of questions about how PFS stuff works but please be careful when giving quick rulings on the message boards. One of the biggest complaints of Jushua Frost PFS was the large amount of scattered message board posts explaining how things work meaning that to play correctly one had to read every post on the board and then we had the note that the rulings were optional unless you knew about them etc.

Please be careful, I worry we're beginning to tread the path back to madness.

Paizo Employee ** Developer

A lot of people have flagged a number of posts in this thread for FAQ review. When Mike's back in the office and he and I can sit down and talk about the campaign and rules implications of these issues, we'll see about getting a single, simple answer put in the FAQ. Sorry for any confusion that may result from the delay in us being able to converse on the topic.

Shadow Lodge **

Can we add the Contingency thing in there as well (in regards to does it need to be the same caster casting the spell put into the Contingency or not).

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Can we add the Contingency thing in there as well (in regards to does it need to be the same caster casting the spell put into the Contingency or not).

Would that not be a Pathfinder Rule Question and not a PFS Rule question?

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Paz wrote:

Belafon: Bear in mind that a number of scenarios start with some element of travel/downtime ('Murder on the Throaty Mermaid' springs to mind), which a caster PC could use to prepare said items for use.

(Unless Mike/Mark/a VC says that's not what's intended, of course...)

If there is some element of travel, it is fair game for a caster PC to fill a spell storing item if they are able to do so.

Also totally verifies that time when we had a month at sea traveling from Absalom so my Razmiran Priest conjured 50 holy waters each for our 2 alchemists :-p [spoiler]Razmiran Priest into Pathfinder Savant and took Bless Water as an esoteric spell[/spolier]

Shadow Lodge ***

The throaty mermaid will now be serving goodberry cocktails.

Qadira ****

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The throaty mermaid will now be serving goodberry cocktails.

where did they get the fresh berries?

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Updated the FAQ.

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