There aren't rules against it, but you're right. You don't walk around constantly with your weapon drawn in a fantasy world. Why? It screws up maintenance, but more importantly, it's effing exhausting! Ever swung a sword? or a full sized composite bow? The're heavy!
Want a simple answer? Running around with your weapons constantly drawn causes fatigue penalties. Each hour of walking with weapons drawn counts as hustling. Same with mounts: while trick riding might be possible, doing so for extended amounts of time is tiring to the animal. If that seems iffy to you, then make it tiring to the rider instead. Do you have any idea how tiring steering a horse with your legs would be after a few hours?
Modern day combat is not equivalent to swords and horses. Guns are theoreticly lighter and easier to use then a good old fashioned two-handed weapon.
Try not to be mean about it, but shut him down on this one imo: he's poking holes in the logic of a fantasy game: it's your job to justify the setting.
As an addendum: compare this to riding around on your two wheel bike on one tire, or steering THAT with your knees. You might be skilled enough to do it, even for extended periods of time: doesn't mean it's not exhausting.
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There aren't rules against it, but you're right. You don't walk around constantly with your weapon drawn in a fantasy world. Why? It screws up maintenance, but more importantly, it's effing exhausting! Ever swung a sword? or a full sized composite bow? The're heavy!
Want a simple answer? Running around with your weapons constantly drawn causes fatigue penalties. Each hour of walking with weapons drawn counts as hustling. Same with mounts: while trick riding might be possible, doing so for extended amounts of time is tiring to the animal. If that seems iffy to you, then make it tiring to the rider instead. Do you have any idea how tiring steering a horse with your legs would be after a few hours?
Modern day combat is not equivalent to swords and horses. Guns are theoreticly lighter and easier to use then a good old fashioned two-handed weapon.
Try not to be mean about it, but shut him down on this one imo: he's poking holes in the logic of a fantasy game: it's your job to justify the setting.
The example I gave earlier in the thread was with a compound bow, a wooden one before the fancier lightweight stuff came out. It was somewhere above 5 pounds. A composite longbow is listed at 3 lbs in pathfinder. I could no doubt carry one of those bows the same as I could my old compound. And in this example, a mounted character could have hand on bow, resting in his lap while riding. There is no fatigue in this position. The OP is just trying to punish his player for playing smart. There are other ways to go about it.
As an addendum: compare this to riding around on your two wheel bike on one tire, or steering THAT with your knees. You might be skilled enough to do it, even for extended periods of time: doesn't mean it's not exhausting.
First, you would only need to guide it by your knees when firing your bow, you would have your hand available to steer in the meantime.
Second, guiding a horse by your knees that can balance itself and can move on it's own is in no way near as exhausting as pedaling a bike with no handlebars.
More digression about swordplay and the Mordschlag...
Maybe the plate is just to show how to do the blow for learning sake and not indicative of when to use the technique? In fact the muderstroke would be LESS effective against linen then the stabby end. The pommel certainly will not skewer as well as the pointy end will...and neither will the qullions. So why waste time to flip your sword around to attack with the LESS deadly parts of your blade?
There are several reasons such a strike might be helpful:
1.) Keep in mind the principle of simultaneous defense and attack. From a high (or "roof") ward, you can drop your tip to block a foe's strike with the sword's tip while stepping in to slam him with your quillions. The half-sword grip gives enough leverage to parry with the entire sword, where a more conventional stance would force you to use the forte for your blocks.
2.) Such a blow may require less space, an advantage if fighting in tight quarters.
3.) An opponent may overcommit to blocking your thrust, knocking your sword's point out of line but actually helping you hit him with your quillions.
4.) In a melee, your quillions can easily hook the weapons or shield used to block the mordschlag, leaving your foe vulnerable to your allies' strikes.
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There aren't rules against it, but you're right. You don't walk around constantly with your weapon drawn in a fantasy world. Why? It screws up maintenance, but more importantly, it's effing exhausting! Ever swung a sword? or a full sized composite bow? The're heavy!
Want a simple answer? Running around with your weapons constantly drawn causes fatigue penalties. Each hour of walking with weapons drawn counts as hustling. Same with mounts: while trick riding might be possible, doing so for extended amounts of time is tiring to the animal. If that seems iffy to you, then make it tiring to the rider instead. Do you have any idea how tiring steering a horse with your legs would be after a few hours?
Modern day combat is not equivalent to swords and horses. Guns are theoreticly lighter and easier to use then a good old fashioned two-handed weapon.
Try not to be mean about it, but shut him down on this one imo: he's poking holes in the logic of a fantasy game: it's your job to justify the setting.
Actually people have already shut all of you examples down. People did hold on to their weapons while marching and/or mounted, and longsword weighed about 4 lbs which is lighter than the SAW(Squad Assault Weapon) I had to carry. The tricking riding example is also incorrect. It is not like you are guiding the horse to the left and right during the entire march. When you get to a point where you need to turn you can guide the horse then let it continue in that direction until you need to get it to change direction again.
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this post blew up but somebody said Profession (Soldier) check when there is an encounter to 'remember' to keep bow knocked and ready. i like that idea.
you could base it on CON for this instance of constant vigilance.
A bad idea.
Source:Real Soldier.
Even before I was out of basic training we knew to keep the weapon on us, and that was even when combat had a less than 1% chance of taking place. There is no way(less than 1% of the previous 1%) chance that we don't have the weapon in a "ready to use" position. I will also add that we are not saying the bow should be knocked the entire time. That would be tiring. We are just saying there is no reason to put it away, in a setting such as Kingmaker while you are exploring.
More digression about swordplay and the Mordschlag...
Maybe the plate is just to show how to do the blow for learning sake and not indicative of when to use the technique? In fact the muderstroke would be LESS effective against linen then the stabby end. The pommel certainly will not skewer as well as the pointy end will...and neither will the qullions. So why waste time to flip your sword around to attack with the LESS deadly parts of your blade?There are several reasons such a strike might be helpful...
And of course, "less deadly" is relative. Against a foe covered in armor, your slashing attacks are not going to be effective - hence, half-swording is developed. This kind of pommel strike would also be effective, because it relies on blunt force applied on a small surface area (the pommel/quillions) - it's kind of like turning your sword into an improvised warhammer.
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I think everyone's overlooking the real cheating that's occurring here: the characters are walking around wearing their leather armor.
There aren't rules against it, but you're right. You don't walk around constantly with your leather armor worn in a fantasy world. Why? It screws up maintenance, but more importantly, it's effing exhausting! Ever worn real armor? Full-sized medieval armor? The're heavy!
Want a simple answer? Running around with your armor constantly worn causes fatigue penalties. Each hour of walking with armor worn counts as hustling. Same with mounts: while carrying armored riders might be possible, doing so for extended amounts of time is tiring to the animal. If that seems iffy to you, then make it tiring to the rider instead. Do you have any idea how tiring steering a horse while bogged down with armor would be after a few hours?
Modern day combat is not equivalent to swords and horses. Plating today is theoretically lighter and easier to use then a good old fashioned medieval leather armor.
Try not to be mean about it, but shut him down on this one imo: he's poking holes in the logic of a fantasy game: it's your job to justify the setting. And if anyone has the nerve to try marching around in medium armor, eject them from your game immediately, they're obviously munchkins.
I assume Roberta Yang your last post was tongue in cheek. If so: +1
:)
- Gauss
Roberta-
(yeah, i know your post was a parody, but I thought some real information could be spread anyway)
Wearing Chainmail is exhausting, true. Mostly because all the weight hangs directly from the shoulders. There's no weight distribution.
Leather and Plate are actually really easy to wear. The only thing that is really an issue is getting too hot (which is also tiring, but heat fatigue is a lot different than weight fatigue)
Basically, if your armor maintains it's general shape when you aren't wearing it, it's going to be pretty easy to wear.
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Stop bringing facts into this, Doomed Hero. If I say leather armor is heavy and pretty much impossible to wear while marching, then I don't want anyone with actual experience in any of these matters butting in and telling me how the real world works. Just because both the real world and the game mechanics are against me doesn't change the fact that it's my game, my world, my rules, and I can make up whatever I want.
Just give up and agree with me, that's what this topic is for, and it's much easier than bringing actual truth into the equation.
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What about dudes in full plate?
Eh, I don't mind them, they're fine. But if the guy in leather armor rolls a 1 at the start of combat... boom! Leather armor rusts at the worst possible time and they get a -5 penalty to everything Dex-based (including AC). That's what those jerks trying to poke holes in my game world get for thinking they can get away with free AC for no armor check penalty.
god why do i even have players all they do is ruin everything
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There aren't rules against it, but you're right. You don't walk around constantly with your weapon drawn in a fantasy world. Why? It screws up maintenance, but more importantly, it's effing exhausting! Ever swung a sword? or a full sized composite bow? The're heavy!
Want a simple answer? Running around with your weapons constantly drawn causes fatigue penalties. Each hour of walking with weapons drawn counts as hustling. Same with mounts: while trick riding might be possible, doing so for extended amounts of time is tiring to the animal. If that seems iffy to you, then make it tiring to the rider instead. Do you have any idea how tiring steering a horse with your legs would be after a few hours?
Modern day combat is not equivalent to swords and horses. Guns are theoreticly lighter and easier to use then a good old fashioned two-handed weapon.
Try not to be mean about it, but shut him down on this one imo: he's poking holes in the logic of a fantasy game: it's your job to justify the setting.
SOOOO much wrong. Who the hell SWINGS a longbow?!? And yes if you were swinging a sword all day long, it is tiring...but you are NOT swing the sword around...you are just have it resting on your shoulder so it is ready at a moment's notice. I have however pointed out the horse with the knees issue...an issue that the OP has pretty much decided to ignore in favor of a houserule to screw just one of his players when making a ruling on the horse issue solves ALL his issues. Yeah go figure.
Longarms are NOT lighter then a longbow or even a two handed sword. My .308 bolt action is over 22 lbs (and yes I can lug it around all day for a hunting trip). A real longbow with the warbow poundage won't top 5 lbs. A bastard sword is a rare one that tops 4 lbs. Great swords over 6 lbs were considered art pieces and not actual tools of war. Your concept of what REAL weapons are like is absolutelt false. I can and HAVE carried swords and bows around all day long at the ready with NO issue. In fact the shield will gives you WAY more issues then any weapon. Your concept of what a FIT person can do is just plain wrong...much less a person who has more strength and edurance and agility then even the BEST humanity has EVER produced. I fail to see any logic issues...at all...unless your heros are SUPPOSE to geeks live in the parent's basement who can't lift even a rolled up newspaper.
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1.) Keep in mind the principle of simultaneous defense and attack. From a high (or "roof") ward, you can drop your tip to block a foe's strike with the sword's tip while stepping in to slam him with your quillions. The half-sword grip gives enough leverage to parry with the entire sword, where a more conventional stance would force you to use the forte for your blocks.2.) Such a blow may require less space, an advantage if fighting in tight quarters.
3.) An opponent may overcommit to blocking your thrust, knocking your sword's point out of line but actually helping you hit him with your quillions.
4.) In a melee, your quillions can easily hook the weapons or shield used to block the mordschlag, leaving your foe vulnerable to your allies' strikes.
1) half swording isn't the same as the murderstroke. In the scenerio you placed, yes you can halfsword and pommel strike...to do the muderstroke you would have to spend time to regrip strong hand to the foible of the blade to do it...so why the heck would you so that again?
2) It really doesn't. Half swording does...but the muderstroke takes up pretty much the same space. So if your tight on space, why muderstroke and not half sword? As the half sword is faster...and you have the deadlier point forwards?
3) If you opponent is THAT out of line, there are quite a few quick, faster ways to get them dead...ones that don't involve you losing the advantage you got in their over commited attack by switching your grip around to the muder stroke.
4) Yes, this is actually QUITE good vs a shield. Guess what a shield is? Armor. I DID mention I failed to see this being useful in UNARMORED combat...which is what the plate depicts. Once you toss in armor...yes there are many good reasons to use the blow.
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And of course, "less deadly" is relative. Against a foe covered in armor, your slashing attacks are not going to be effective - hence, half-swording is developed. This kind of pommel strike would also be effective, because it relies on blunt force applied on a small surface area (the pommel/quillions) - it's kind of like turning your sword into an improvised warhammer.More digression about swordplay and the Mordschlag...
Maybe the plate is just to show how to do the blow for learning sake and not indicative of when to use the technique? In fact the muderstroke would be LESS effective against linen then the stabby end. The pommel certainly will not skewer as well as the pointy end will...and neither will the qullions. So why waste time to flip your sword around to attack with the LESS deadly parts of your blade?There are several reasons such a strike might be helpful...
I did say I was talking about UNARMORED combat yes? Yes I did...why do people not bother to read what I say? Sigh....
1) half swording isn't the same as the murderstroke. In the scenerio you placed, yes you can halfsword and pommel strike...to do the muderstroke you would have to spend time to regrip strong hand to the foible of the blade to do it...so why the heck would you so that again?
There's a lot of reasons
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There's a lot of reasons1) half swording isn't the same as the murderstroke. In the scenerio you placed, yes you can halfsword and pommel strike...to do the muderstroke you would have to spend time to regrip strong hand to the foible of the blade to do it...so why the heck would you so that again?
And they are talking about armor mostly again...which I have ALREADY said that this technique is quite valid for. The plate however shows UNARMORED combat use of this technique. The only part of the muderstoke vs unarmored is when they say... "The Mordschlag is a way of defeating someone wearing plate armor in Medieval Europe, though it is even more effective against someone who is unarmored."...which is TECHNICALLY true as you don't havr armor to protect you from the blow...but you know what else works really well vs an unarmored person? The pointy end. It works faster and you don't have to waste time to switch the grip. And remember I am not talking about half swording being a bad idea in unarmored combat...which is pretty much MOST of that blog anyways...but halfsword is quite valid. I am just not sold on the use of the murder stroke if there isn't armor involved.
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The tricking riding example is also incorrect. It is not like you are guiding the horse to the left and right during the entire march. When you get to a point where you need to turn you can guide the horse then let it continue in that direction until you need to get it to change direction again.
That is true if your on the road or a horse trail...but in a wilderness setting, you gonna need to change directions...a lot. I go riding near the park around here which is basically a forest and you have to change directions quite often. Pretty much constantly in fact...unless you like a face full of tree.
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As an addendum: compare this to riding around on your two wheel bike on one tire, or steering THAT with your knees. You might be skilled enough to do it, even for extended periods of time: doesn't mean it's not exhausting.First, you would only need to guide it by your knees when firing your bow, you would have your hand available to steer in the meantime.
Second, guiding a horse by your knees that can balance itself and can move on it's own is in no way near as exhausting as pedaling a bike with no handlebars.
While riding a horse with just your knees isn't as bad as the bicycle example trayce gave...it IS exhausting to ride in that manner for any given time. And if your holding the bow in your hand while using your hands to control the horse, your bow isn't at the ready now is it? At that point, it is a move action to get your bow free of the reigns so you can shoot. Seriously, if werebat doesn't want mounted people to have their full attacks ready to go at round one, just make on ruling for riding with your knees for a long period of time (I suggested it is a hustle)...and blam, all his issues goes away...no houserule, no angry player...but I somehow doubt this was even about the rules or balance issue and more of a he has issues with said player issue anyways.
I'm loving the armchair analysis of how I *must* have it in for my player and just want to "punish" him for playing "smart". Some of you are revealing a lot with your assumptions. As I said before, the issue was resolved to my own and my player's satisfaction.
I just wanted to comment on the observation someone made that just because a weapon is in one's hands doesn't necessarily mean it is ready to use. That's an excellent point. A composite bow held in one's lap while one's "off hand" is manipulating reigns is not at all the same as a composite bow drawn with an arrow nocked.
Similarly, a polearm carried slung over one's shoulder is not the same as a polearm held in both hands and ready to defend/attack with. I'm not a swordsman but it would seem the motion required to grab the polearm with the off hand, turn it around, and ready it might be similar to that required to draw a short sword.
The game doesn't deal with this, most likely out of a desire for simplicity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go ride my horse by guiding it with my knees for a week through mountainous terrain while carrying a bastard sword out and at the ready in each hand.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go ride my horse by guiding it with my knees for a week through mountainous terrain while carrying a bastard sword out and at the ready in each hand.
Don't forget to take pictures and post them.
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I'm loving the armchair analysis of how I *must* have it in for my player and just want to "punish" him for playing "smart". Some of you are revealing a lot with your assumptions. As I said before, the issue was resolved to my own and my player's satisfaction.
I just wanted to comment on the observation someone made that just because a weapon is in one's hands doesn't necessarily mean it is ready to use. That's an excellent point. A composite bow held in one's lap while one's "off hand" is manipulating reigns is not at all the same as a composite bow drawn with an arrow nocked.
Similarly, a polearm carried slung over one's shoulder is not the same as a polearm held in both hands and ready to defend/attack with. I'm not a swordsman but it would seem the motion required to grab the polearm with the off hand, turn it around, and ready it might be similar to that required to draw a short sword.
The game doesn't deal with this, most likely out of a desire for simplicity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go ride my horse by guiding it with my knees for a week through mountainous terrain while carrying a bastard sword out and at the ready in each hand.
Okay I missed your solution at the end of one of your posts...my bad.
The bow doesn't need to have a arrow nocked for it to be considered ready in this game...however it should be held in hand and the other ready to use said weapon.
Now for the polearm...unless your assuming that the swordsman is walking around with his hand on his sword ready to draw it out (at which point you might as well just carry it out and ready to go), getting a polearm resting on your shoulder ready to attack vs reaching down, grabbing your sword out and then getting the sword into a ready position is not the same or even similar (in combat terms) amounts of time. One of the reasons that Fiore like to carry their scabbard not on their belt was spectifcally so they can get a tempo advantage by tossing their scabbard as a distraction missle weapon as they unsheathe their weapon (I should make a feat for that...). As long as your other hand is free and able, those polearms are good to go.
Been there done that...albeit it was a bastard sword and shield (and plate armor)...and not for a whole week...just 2 hours...and my legs were jello for weeks afterwards. I do admit that my horsemenship isn't exactly great however...so better riders could have lasted longer...but still, easy (a DC5?!?) check this ain't. Yeah to do that for like 6 seconds maybe...but not for hours of it.
I feel that having weapons drawn and at the ready is fine in certain situations (exploring a dungeon, for example), but exploring for days at a time with a longbow in your hands seems wrong.
You may not be interested any more as you seem to have resolved the issue in your own game, but I did some image searching on the topic of mounted warriors and carrying weapons in hand in regular non battle situations, and while actual photographs, and to some extent even pictures of such warriors in such non-battle situations were surprisingly difficult to find, it seems that truth may be precisely as strange as fiction is in this case.
Guiding a horse with knees alone can get pretty tiring, but just using your main hand(righty, in my case) and holding onto something like a bow in your offhand and across your lap is not a big deal, especially if you hop off to rest your horse (or wolf or whatever) appropriately, as they don't like walking along with you on top of them all day long. Carrying a bow in your off hand while walking for several hours is not a big deal either, yeah you may shift it back and forth or rest it against a tree or wall while you rest but up and moving no problem.
As far as having a polearm slung over your shoulder and getting it to ready and swinging goes it takes less than a second to go from ready to swinging with a polearm (at least the spears, glaives, and halberds I have trained with). In no circumstances should bringing the bow up to fire or going from at rest to ready with a polearm constitute any part of the action economy beyond a free action. Its one of the advantages of two-handed weapons that you tend to hold onto them rather than sheath them and so they are ready to be used quickly.
I'm loving the armchair analysis of how I *must* have it in for my player and just want to "punish" him for playing "smart". Some of you are revealing a lot with your assumptions. As I said before, the issue was resolved to my own and my player's satisfaction.
I just wanted to comment on the observation someone made that just because a weapon is in one's hands doesn't necessarily mean it is ready to use. That's an excellent point. A composite bow held in one's lap while one's "off hand" is manipulating reigns is not at all the same as a composite bow drawn with an arrow nocked.
Similarly, a polearm carried slung over one's shoulder is not the same as a polearm held in both hands and ready to defend/attack with. I'm not a swordsman but it would seem the motion required to grab the polearm with the off hand, turn it around, and ready it might be similar to that required to draw a short sword.
The game doesn't deal with this, most likely out of a desire for simplicity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go ride my horse by guiding it with my knees for a week through mountainous terrain while carrying a bastard sword out and at the ready in each hand.
The difference between a weapon being in hand as a carried object and "ready" is represented in game by being flat footed until you've had a chance reach your spot in the Initiative order.
As for the horse riding, I had a friend in high school who lost her left arm just below the elbow, she rode horses all the time using her one good arm. I assume that if a 110 lbs 16 year old could do it, then a Ranger or Paladin who probably has well above average STR and CON could control a horse with a free hand while holding a weapon.
But guys, it seems wrong. Whether or not it's actually possible is irrelevant to the situation; what's relevant is that I reckon it's impossible. I can't bellyfeel walking around with a bow in hand, therefore it simply cannot happen.
There's more nerve endings in your gut than in your brain.
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Especially when you have your head lodged firmly up in your gut.
An m16 weighs 6-7 pounds. A longsword weights 2-3 pounds. Which one is lighter?
Ah, but remember, Trayce didn't say guns were actually lighter. Trayce said "Guns are theoreticly [sic] lighter". It's an important difference. The issue isn't whether or not carrying around a weapon is possible in the real world; the issue is that some people can't imagine it, it seems wrong, it feels wrong, it's impossible in their mind's eye. What's actually true is secondary to what they have deemed theoretically true.
If it feels like a modern gun ought to be lighter than a longsword, then "facts" and "weights" and "people saying things that are actually true" don't matter. All that matters is that someone with no actual real-life experience with weapons might not, off the top of their head, assume the sword is lighter than the gun. And once they've reached that conclusion based on what they reckon, anything that other people know is a vicious attack on their position as GM.
I'm also using the same muscles to move around in armor all day that I'd be using in a fight, guess I should be taking a -10 penalty to base speed for not walking around in blue jeans instead.
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Have you ever fought in a suit of full plate? Have you ever walked in a 45 pound suit of chainmail for eight straight hours?
I have and it is tiring as hell. And i fought with a real longsword and a real heavy shield. And i was in good shape at the time. After fifteen or so swings, i couldn't lift my arm anymore, and after deflecting around twenty attacks from a guy, i couldn't lift my shield arm either.
After walking for eight hours in chainmail, i was so exausted that i couldn't get up on my feet once i sat down.
Then we're in agreement: all characters, PC's and NPC's alike, should perpetually have the Exhausted condition. Otherwise, the game loses its verisimilitude.
(The exception is wizards, who don't need heavy armor or heavy weapons, but wizards are underpowered anyhow so that seems fair.)
I addressed this already, but Chainmail really, really sucks to wear. The weight distribution is terrible. Literally every other kind of armor on the planet is easier to wear than chain. It really should have a higher ACP than plate mail (which is actually really easy to wear).
the game doesn't get into that kind or detail though, for weapons or for armor. It isn't necessary.
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No, we're not. I have 11 strength and 11 constitution, also my base fortitude is 0. A character who specializes in wearing heavy or medium armor usually has at least 14. That is a huuuge difference. They would succeed at fortitude saves for fatigue far more then i would. Not to mention when they level and their saves go up more.