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**IMPORTANT** A clarification on Pregenerated characters


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

It has come to my attention that there are iconic pregens built into the Hero Lab program of various different levels, including 8+. I spoke to John Ryan at Wolflsair about it this morning and he advised the following:

Yes, we provide pre-gens of 8+ levels with Hero Lab. All the pre-gens we supply come from various Adventure Paths when they included sample characters in them. For example, the level 10 Kyra came from Pathfinder AP #40, Vaults of Madness.

These pregens included with Hero Lab are not legal for PFS and should not be used for PFS games. The only pregens legal for PFS are the level 1, 4, and 7 pregens available for free download here a Paizo.com. This is especially true for people wanting to use high level pregens, such as level 10, to play in sub tier 10-11.

I will update the FAQ in a bit.

**

Oh wow. Good to know! I use Herolabs a lot in most of my games (though only for regular PFS groups). Thanks for the heads up.

*****

Thank you for the clarification. It is good to keep us up to date.

Andoran *****

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Why would people think they could use the Pregens in HeroLabs.

I am confused how and why this became issue.

Edit: Oddly I first read the Topic as **IMPORTANT** A CLARIFICATION ON PREGNANT CHARACTERS

*

Dragnmoon wrote:

Why would people think they could use the Pregens in HeroLabs.

I am confused how and why this became issue.

Edit: Oddly I first read the Topic as **IMPORTANT** A CLARIFICATION ON PREGNANT CHARACTERS

Same here. No clue why people would think that third party NPC character sheets would be legal.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Dragnmoon wrote:

Why would people think they could use the Pregens in HeroLabs.

I am confused how and why this became issue.

A 10th level pregen was utilized so that a party could play up to subtier 10-11. I believe this was an honest mistake and want to clarify so it doesn't happen again.

Qadira *

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mike,

When the NPC Guide comes out and the Iconics get statted out in it is there still a chance that those will be available for PFS? Or am I misremembering that that was ever a possibility?

Andoran ***

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I was of the view that the pregens that were provided with Dawn of the Scarlet Sun were okay to use for that specific module.

There were pregens created specifically for Master of the Fallen Fortress as well back in the history of time. We be Goblins? Ditto.

It is also likely that there will be pregens specifically created for use with Free RPG day modules in the future too Mike.

Please be careful in the blanket language that you might employ so that it does not prevent the use of pregens for the modules designed for them. The Herolab pregens have been there for more than year - this is not a new thing and I am not aware that anybody is using them for any purpose in the way you are concerned about. If they are, it is a very rare exception. Please ensure you don't employ langauge which throws out the baby with the bathwater.

Andoran *****

Kristie Schweyer wrote:
Kyrie Ebonblade wrote:
Well I'll be honest.. most of the complaints I've heard as a Player and GM was how 'un-PFS' the pre-gens were. Little to no knowledges, social skills. Some don't even have basic class skills like 'spellcraft' (The Iconic Cleric I think)

The iconic pregens aren't supposed to be the best of the PFS play experience. They are easy enough to give someone a taste and get someone started quickly. The best of the PFS play experience is trying a pregen and then making your own, way better character.

That being said, when I play Kyra, I always immediately change her memorized spells for the day to take the Cure spells off her memorized list. :)

The memorized cure spells are from her domain. Although those can be swapped out for her other domain's spells. But then they can't be used spontaneously for cure spells.

So it isn't as stupid as originally stated for her to have cure spells memorized.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Robert Trifts wrote:

I was of the view that the pregens that were provided with Dawn of the Scarlet Sun were okay to use for that specific module.

There were pregens created specifically for Master of the Fallen Fortress as well back in the history of time. We be Goblins? Ditto.

It is also likely that there will be pregens specifically created for use with Free RPG day modules in the future too Mike.

Please be careful in the blanket language that you might employ so that it does not prevent the use of pregens for the modules designed for them. The Herolab pregens have been there for more than year - this is not a new thing and I am not aware that anybody is using them for any purpose in the way you are concerned about. If they are, it is a very rare exception. Please ensure you don't employ langauge which throws out the baby with the bathwater.

This will be addressed in the FAQ. Yes, the pregens included with DotSS, WBG, etc... may be used for those modules only. It will be spelled out in the FAQ. As for people using them in the way I am concerned about, the reason this is an issue is because a 10th level pregen from Hero Lab was used in a game in the past week.

Andoran ***

Michael Brock wrote:
This will be addressed in the FAQ. Yes, the pregens included with DotSS, WBG, etc... may be used for those modules only. It will be spelled out in the FAQ. As for people using them in the way I am concerned about, the reason this is an issue is because a 10th level pregen from Hero Lab was used in a game in the past week.

Understood.

**

Dragnmoon wrote:

Why would people think they could use the Pregens in HeroLabs.

I am confused how and why this became issue.

I can see someone making the assumption that they were identical to the PFS PreGens.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

If you want to discuss pregen builds, or any other issue besides what this topic is about, please start a new thread. Removed several posts discussing the builds of current pregens.

*

Michael Brock wrote:
This will be addressed in the FAQ. Yes, the pregens included with DotSS, WBG, etc... may be used for those modules only. It will be spelled out in the FAQ. As for people using them in the way I am concerned about, the reason this is an issue is because a 10th level pregen from Hero Lab was used in a game in the past week.

Ahh. I guess I could see players going into PFS approved modules and such and pulling NPCs, thinking that they are approved for play because they are usable for that module. I guess what threw me was the fact that they just pulled them from herolab. Thanks for clearing it up and being so on top of it that the rest of us are going "Huh??? Someone did that?"

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Robert Trifts wrote:

I was of the view that the pregens that were provided with Dawn of the Scarlet Sun were okay to use for that specific module.

There were pregens created specifically for Master of the Fallen Fortress as well back in the history of time. We be Goblins? Ditto.

It is also likely that there will be pregens specifically created for use with Free RPG day modules in the future too Mike.

Please be careful in the blanket language that you might employ so that it does not prevent the use of pregens for the modules designed for them. The Herolab pregens have been there for more than year - this is not a new thing and I am not aware that anybody is using them for any purpose in the way you are concerned about. If they are, it is a very rare exception. Please ensure you don't employ langauge which throws out the baby with the bathwater.

This will be addressed in the FAQ. Yes, the pregens included with DotSS, WBG, etc... may be used for those modules only. It will be spelled out in the FAQ. As for people using them in the way I am concerned about, the reason this is an issue is because a 10th level pregen from Hero Lab was used in a game in the past week.

I've been running on that assumption (including the Master of the Fallen Fortress pregens) so I'm glad to see this clarified.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm an avid but not advanced user of HeroLab and was utterly unaware that there are pregens in it. But now, if I stumble across them, I know not to use them for PFS.


I dont' have or use HeroLab myself, but this info is good if those iconics ever show up at my table. Thanks for the heads-up.

**

It doesn't help that at least some of the HL pregens have the same names as the PFS pregens - which is likely where the confusion originated.

Change the names of either set.

Grand Lodge ****

Some Random Player wrote:

It doesn't help that at least some of the HL pregens have the same names as the PFS pregens - which is likely where the confusion originated.

Change the names of either set.

Then again it could all be solved if people just stopped assuming that because its in Herolab it must be official and therefore allowed.

Grand Lodge

The Hero Lab Pregens are 15 point buy and have no traits, it seems rather obvious to me that they wouldn't be pathfinder society legal. To each his own though, extra clarification is never a bad thing.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

I've spoken to Hero Lab folks and they are going to be looking at ways to differentiate.

Grand Lodge ****

Michael Brock wrote:
I've spoken to Hero Lab folks and they are going to be looking at ways to differentiate.

Seems to me it would be pretty easy.. put in a X(PFS Version) would work

IE... Seoni (PFS Version) in the name field

**

...except that HL is easily configurable to include only what is pfs legal and is fairly accurate. I have never used them, but having pregens of the same level and names is asking for confusion.

sveden wrote:
Some Random Player wrote:

It doesn't help that at least some of the HL pregens have the same names as the PFS pregens - which is likely where the confusion originated.

Change the names of either set.

Then again it could all be solved if people just stopped assuming that because its in Herolab it must be official and therefore allowed.

Andoran ***

Some Random Player wrote:

...except that HL is easily configurable to include only what is pfs legal and is fairly accurate. I have never used them, but having pregens of the same level and names is asking for confusion.

sveden wrote:
Some Random Player wrote:

It doesn't help that at least some of the HL pregens have the same names as the PFS pregens - which is likely where the confusion originated.

Change the names of either set.

Then again it could all be solved if people just stopped assuming that because its in Herolab it must be official and therefore allowed.

HL can be configured for PFS fairly accurately. Pencil & paper can be incorrect.

The root cause, in this case, is that Paizo tends to use the same PC names for characters of certain classes, that these characters tend to be included as pregens in various Paizo products, and that Wolf Lair, in an effort to be completist, includes the pregens for various non-PFS products, frequently as examples of built characters, in their character generation software.

The only issue was the GM or player who wasn't paying attention, and mis-used a resource.

As mentioned above, adding an identifier after the pregens' names might be the easiest way to handle it in the future.
Ezren (PFS, 1st level)
Ezren (Dawn of the Scarlet Sun, 5th level)
Ezren (Curse of the Riven Sky, 10th level)
Etc.

Of course, that also assumes the non-Wolf Lair contributors also follow that format in future...

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This does not have to be so discombobulated. We cannot "rule out" players not paying attention or GMs allowing players to apply chronicles outside the scope of the rules. The general rule is that only the official PFS versions of the pregens are considered "pregens" for the purposes of organized play. They only exist in pdf form and are formatted with additional text that make them appear unique. So, if you are using a pregen, then you should be using a printed copy of the official pregen sheet (probably provided by the GM and/or event organizer). Done. This, of course, would be the general rule and leave it open for specific exceptions to be made for cases like the Free RPG GameDay releases. For example, AFAIK, the pregens included in Dawn of the Scarlet Sun are approved, but only for the purposes of that module. You cannot use those versions of the pregens in other games.

There is no reason for the Herolab folks to spend time and resources to make exceptions-based changes in their product. Those efforts are better spent fixing any minor errors in the data package and on R&D for cool add-ons to the software.

In the end, within PFS, we have designated the term "pregen" to indicate the iconic characters, at levels 1, 4, & 7, downloadable from the Paizo website as the only ones that qualify under the rules regarding earning chronicles and applying credit to existing PCs. You/We need to be careful how we use the term "pregen" with regards to other character builds. They should not be referred to as "pregens" because that can become confusing to new players. If a player wants to play at a table (1st level) and use something other than the official pregens, then they need to roll up a character. If time does not permit that, then they use an official pregen. If they want to play at a higher-level table, then they need to earn that right through gameplay or use one of the official pregens. There really are no other options and GM/organizers should not be allowing players to do otherwise.

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It would, however, also be really helpful if some of the fairly well documented errors in some of the current pregens were addressed by Paizo. (this is more the case at higher levels).

Formal rules as well for how much a player can adjust a pregen prior to play would also be helpful to clarify for old and new players & GMs alike.

For example:

- as a GM I would happily let any player playing Kyra select other spells to be memorized (pretty trivial since clerics get new spells each morning) but I can't as easily as much as I would like to allow a player of the 1st level Kyra to select something as an alternative to the Scroll of Endure Elements that character starts with (which is useful in a handful of scenarios but more often than not goes unused)

- Allowing a new player selecting Kyra to play to change her domains on the other hand is a more complicated - since this impacts her special powers etc - but it would be fantastic if the pregens for PFS play did offer some greater set of choices for players to make as some means of at least slightly customizing them.

[the Pregens for Dawn of the Scarlet Sun do this well - but also suffer from being 15pt buys so somewhat underpowered compared to regular PFS pregens - but their special choices for that module are interesting and might be a mechanic that Paizo could adopt for new PFS pregens - perhaps with less story specific choices but a handful of "big" changes to each pregen that can be selected amongst)

- adding a few things to each pregen to make sure that they work well in the majority of PFS situations - adding just 20gp or so to each pregen would ensure that a player of a pregen could purchase cold weather gear/noble clothes etc as needed at the start of many scenarios. Adding examples of stuff most PFS players should consider having to the pregens would be helpful as an example for new players (i.e. alchemist fire for swarms, method of self healing, light sources etc)

Shadow Lodge ***

To clarify, aside from the normal pregens available on the site, can a PFS-legal level 1 (well discard 1, since rebuilds are available), 4 or 7 character not be created from scratch and used as a pregen?

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Avatar-1 wrote:
To clarify, aside from the normal pregens available on the site, can a PFS-legal level 1 (well discard 1, since rebuilds are available), 4 or 7 character not be created from scratch and used as a pregen?

No.


Lab_Rat wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:

Why would people think they could use the Pregens in HeroLabs.

I am confused how and why this became issue.

Edit: Oddly I first read the Topic as **IMPORTANT** A CLARIFICATION ON PREGNANT CHARACTERS

Same here. No clue why people would think that third party NPC character sheets would be legal.

I dare someone roll a pregnant character now :D

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

I dare someone roll a pregnant character now :D

IIRC, nosig's wife plays a pregnant aasimar cleric of Cayden Cailean. (Hasn't she had that baby yet?)

Shadow Lodge ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mike Mistele wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

I dare someone roll a pregnant character now :D

IIRC, nosig's wife plays a pregnant aasimar cleric of Cayden Cailean. (Hasn't she had that baby yet?)

Congratulations, its an ale!

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

5 people marked this as a favorite.

"My husband says he was hoping for a lager, but really, as long as it isn't Miller Light, we feel blessed."

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

Issues really only come up with level 4 and 7.

Level 1 means that you can print off the LEVEL ONE ONLY third party generated to PFS rules characters (please check that what you're handing out is correct!) and hand someone a "stock first level PC" that is not a pregen but is prebuilt to rules XYZ. Please only hand out PCs where you have the OGL Additional Resources handy to new players...

That way there's fewer 'filing the serial number off of Kyra and making her a dwarf... but getting the changes wrong' problems.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Just as a note, even the 1st level pregens in Hero Lab are not PFS legal characters, as they are all built with 15 pt buys.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
TetsujinOni wrote:
Level 1 means that you can print off the LEVEL ONE ONLY third party generated to PFS rules characters (please check that what you're handing out is correct!) and hand someone a "stock first level PC" that is not a pregen but is prebuilt to rules XYZ. Please only hand out PCs where you have the OGL Additional Resources handy to new players...

I'd be really wary about doing this, especially with brand new players.

The main four official pregens are:
- Easy to play*
- Only use core material
- Highly likely to be PFS legal for a very long time

(* relative to some choices, e.g. summoners)

I'd hate to see a new player who got handed a 'pregen' that was very complicated, used additional resources (causing problems when they go to their next table and don't have official material to back up their character), and used options that were likely to be banned a month or two later. It doesn't give the best first impression of PFS play.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've thought about personally creating a batch of all-Core first-level PCs to offer to new players. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to make them nice and "introductory", and if I'm handing them out personally then I'll always be able to make sure I differentiate between actual "pregens" and what I'm giving them.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Jiggy, you mean, like the d20pfsrd Quick Start characters?

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

.....Apparently, yes. :/

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

That would be precisely the resource I was suggesting for those occasions when the player wants a paladin, sorcerer, bard, barbarian, monk, alchemist, cavalier, inquisitor, or oracle. I'd tend to stay away from the summoner and druid due to the collision between ease and desire.

A better built samurai wouldn't make me cry, either... or at least one that called out the options and differences between weapons better.

All in the d20pfsrd quickstarts with reasonable builds for first level.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Are any of those quickstarts Core-only?

Grand Lodge ****

Once again the interpretation of retrain rules rears its malformed head.

Andoran

While on the topic of PreGens... Would it be too much to ask to change some of the Rogues *cough* 'skills' to some that would be more useful for everyday play? Pa-leeeeeease:?)

A point in Use Magic Device, and Bluff both come to mind as particularly useful for good everyday play :D

And while on that, many people have commented that the Step-Up Feat would be much more useful for the 7th Level version, over Mobility (She's already pretty dang good on Acrobatics vs AO's so Mobility is really just a redundancy n'est–ce pas:?)

Just some passing thoughts - lol

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Dudeacles,

I agree about Step Up. It's a core feat, it's new in Pathfinder, and it would serve the community of 3.5 veterans well to see that feat used in a sample character.

But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.

Shadow Lodge ****

Chris Mortika wrote:
But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.

Are you suggesting the pre-gens are built sub-optimally to punish players that use them as a way of discouraging their use?

*** Venture-Lieutenant, Illinois—Richmond aka thunderspirit

Pirate Rob wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.
Are you suggesting the pre-gens are built sub-optimally to punish players that use them as a way of discouraging their use?

No, Chris didn't say anything about being built sub-optimally or punishing players. I think he's saying that the pre-gens are average and that if you want to play an above-average PC, you should build it yourself.

Andoran

Chris Mortika wrote:

Dudeacles,

I agree about Step Up. It's a core feat, it's new in Pathfinder, and it would serve the community of 3.5 veterans well to see that feat used in a sample character.

But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.

Hmmm, it seems counter intuitive to build pre-gens sub-optimally just to discourage their use.

I for one enjoy (at a level 4 or 7 table) introducing my pre-gen with "You all know me, we've adventured together many times" lol.

People will always want to build and play their own characters.

I personally would just like to see pre-gens being a bit more USEFUL to a party..,
It's not the other players fault that a 'sub-par iconic' is in their midst.

Just my two cents.

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