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Season 0


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

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**

Salutations.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Season 0 material. What are some of the good and bad times you've had with it?


Some of my favourite modules are from Season 0 (e.g. Silent Tide, Mists of Mwangi, Frozen Fingers of Midnight).

However, note that the average Season 0 scenario is pretty easy (with a few exceptions). Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of taste, of course.

Shadow Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also make sure to prep your monsters in advance - some of the Season 0 scenarios reference the MM (Monstrous Manual) and a rare few might have things that aren't in the PFRPG Bestiary, meaning you'll need to find the closest thing to use (Hydra's Fang comes to mind for me on that).

You'll also need to calculate CMB and CMDs for everything since Season 0 was written for 3.5 OGL rather than PFRPG (except for Mists of Mwangi which was updated to PFRPG probably due to its popularity and its connection to the Blackros Museum "series" of adventures).

But I'm with hogarth - some of my favorites have been from Season 0 :)

*

I don't think it really matters where you start PFS, whether season 0 or 4 or a module. The only thing you might be missing (in seasons 1-2) is the Shadow Lodge story arc.

Advantages of Season 0
- Low level mods are generally easy, won't kill new PCs.
- Some good introductions to PFS themes (like GM Torch in Silent Tide, the Blackros museum in Mist of Mwangi)

Disadvantages of Season 0
- Scenarios are easy, often too easy.
- Some conversions from 3.5 to PF can TPK the group. So don't do it unless you're sure.
- They're generally not written as well, sometimes missing maps and other possible solutions.
- They haven't been converted from 3.5 except for Mists of Mwangi.


Jason S wrote:
- Scenarios are easy, often too easy.

There's that matter of taste thing, again... ;-)

Jason S wrote:
Some conversions from 3.5 to PF can TPK the group. So don't do it unless you're sure.

This is an excellent point. I'd suggest just using the 3.5 version with the bare minimum amount of conversion (e.g CMB/CMD).

Qadira ****

Sometimes the magic items on the Chronicle are... odd. (old prices, or old items. Broach of Health for example).

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The ease of low-level Season 0 scenarios isn't too surprising; they were designed for parties with, for example, sorcerers with d4 hit dice (and no benefits to favored class), no bloodlines, etc.; human characters with no +2 stat boost; and so forth.

Qadira ****

Chris Mortika wrote:

The ease of low-level Season 0 scenarios isn't too surprising; they were designed for parties with, for example, sorcerers with d4 hit dice (and no benefits to favored class), no bloodlines, etc.; human characters with no +2 stat boost; and so forth.

Thugs with spiked chains rather than Meteor Hammers....


bad times: we lost an NPC cleric to sharks. We essentially were fishing for clerics, and... well yeah... sharkbait...

*

hogarth wrote:
There's that matter of taste thing, again... ;-)

The biggest thing here is that the GM has to use his discretion on WHEN to run season 0 scenarios. Also, not all season 0 scenarios play well at all subtiers.

Another weakness is that the new factions don't have their own faction missions (and use the missions of other factions), which some players don't care about and some do.

hogarth wrote:
Jason S wrote:
Some conversions from 3.5 to PF can TPK the group. So don't do it unless you're sure.
This is an excellent point. I'd suggest just using the 3.5 version with the bare minimum amount of conversion (e.g CMB/CMD).

I agree, but sometimes using the PF stats for the creature is enough of a boost to make the scenario not stink (assuming they have the same CR).

Personally, although I've GMed several season 0 scenarios (even recently, for storyline purposes), I'd avoid most of them and play the new stuff.

Grand Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
Jason S wrote:
- Scenarios are easy, often too easy.

There's that matter of taste thing, again... ;-)

Jason S wrote:
Some conversions from 3.5 to PF can TPK the group. So don't do it unless you're sure.
This is an excellent point. I'd suggest just using the 3.5 version with the bare minimum amount of conversion (e.g CMB/CMD).

However, I have been told to give two PA for season 0 modules, although my character only earned one. It's ludicrous to allow two PA for a cakewalk. I am disappointed that more of the early modules haven't been converted to PF. I'm getting ready to run "Tide of Morning" and everything is a direct conversion at the same CR.

And if some people die, we lost at least one character when we played it for a reward of 1 PA.

*

Season 0 scenarios are supposed to yield a maximum of 2 PP, 1 for the main pathfinder mission, and 1 for your faction mission.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson aka Sir_Wulf

Some Year Zero mods have a "secret" faction mission not explicitly stated in the faction handout. I generally mention the possibility to players before the session, suggesting that they keep their faction's goals in mind while playing.

Additionally, these mods were generally balanced to be survivable by parties of four D20 3.5 PCs at the low end of the tier. To keep them challenging, run them with groups at the lower side of each tier. Larger tables or optimized characters may stroll through the mods too easily. There are exceptions, such as Murder on the Silken Caravan (which can be made quite brutal if the GM chooses to make his villains fight efficiently).

*****

Mike Bramnik wrote:
Also make sure to prep your monsters in advance - some of the Season 0 scenarios reference the MM (Monstrous Manual) and a rare few might have things that aren't in the PFRPG Bestiary, meaning you'll need to find the closest thing to use (Hydra's Fang comes to mind for me on that).

Remember that you can't just choose the closest thing to use in converting monsters from season 0 scenarios between 3.5 and RFRPG stats. There are specific limitations outlined in pages 33 & 34 of the GTPFSOPv4.2 for adapting them.

Basically besides the merger of the newer factions and swapping skills checks for the PFRPG equivalent you do the following.

*The only thing you do to NPCs is to add up their CMB/CMD.

*Monsters that don't have matching CRs between 3.5 and the Bestiary 1,2,3 you use the 3.5 version and calculate CMB/CMD.

*Monsters with matching CRs you swap out for the Bestiary 1,2,3 version.

Osirion **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, what about equipment that has changed between editions? Should you just use the new version for NPCs, or the old? I'm specifically thinking here of Spiked Chains, but I'm sure there are others.

Qadira ****

YogoZuno wrote:
So, what about equipment that has changed between editions? Should you just use the new version for NPCs, or the old? I'm specifically thinking here of Spiked Chains, but I'm sure there are others.

I think I know the scenario you are thinking of... and I have run it both ways.

With the Spiked Chains, and switching them to Meteor Hammers. There was very little difference. Perhaps slightly better with the Hammers though the bad-guys still get hammered by the PCs. It is kind of interesting to see an alchemist, who is not an Alchemist...

***

Some of the rewards themselves can be a bit wonky... IIRC there's at least one Year 0 chronicle which awards an Amulet of Health +2... nice to get that Con bump with a neck slot! (one for the animal companion?)

Shadow Lodge ****

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
David Haller wrote:
Some of the rewards themselves can be a bit wonky... IIRC there's at least one Year 0 chronicle which awards an Amulet of Health +2... nice to get that Con bump with a neck slot! (one for the animal companion?)

Except that they become the PF equivalent item, you don't get to buy the off slot stat item.

Osirion **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nosig wrote:
I think I know the scenario you are thinking of

It would certainly seem you do ;)

What is a Meteor Hammer, and where do I find details? (in case I end up running this scenario at some point) As to no difference, we had a very hard time dealing with the Spiked Chain cheese, with 4 melee characters - without reach, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as painful.

We didn't get to see the almost-Alchemist - he died before getting an action.

Cheliax ***

Meteor hammers are a little better than 3.5 spiked chains, at 5ft range you can use it as a double weapon (or just 1 end if you dont have TWF) and at 10ft you use it as a 2handed weapon, and gain +1 AC. Switching modes is a free action taken at the start of your turn.

Shadow Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
YogoZuno wrote:
What is a Meteor Hammer, and where do I find details?

Some fluff to go with the crunch. I always envisioned THESE to be meteor hammers in the hands of acrobatic martial artists :)

Taldor *** Venture-Captain, Oklahoma—Tulsa aka Rob Duncan

I liked Season 0 as a means to introduce 3.5 players to Pathfinder generally, and PFS specifically. I've actually used some of them /without/ PFS to help transition some local groups into Pathfinder -- the comments above represent the thoughts of most groups running it:

1) Straightforward
2) Easy to get into without the back story
3) Some conversion "bugs" (like using the MM).
4) A worthwhile introduction

Silver Crusade **

I liked playing Black Waters. That was a fun scenario.

I've never GMed anything from season 0, because I don't want to have to deal with the possibility of needing to convert stats from a game I've never even seen.

***** RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 aka Sir_Wulf

Fromper wrote:
I've never GMed anything from Season 0, because I don't want to have to deal with the possibility of needing to convert stats from a game I've never even seen.

Some of my favorite adventures are from Season 0, so I hate to hear someone isn't comfortable running them. With a bit of planning, you'll have no trouble running the early adventures, especially those designed for Tier 1-5.

When you first read the adventure, check to see whether any monsters have changed CR when translated into Pathfinder. If they have, print out a copy of those monsters' stat blocks from the D20 SRD website, then calculate their CMB and CMD. If the CR hasn't changed, use the Pathfinder version.

To translate NPCs, calculate their CMB and CMD. Don't worry whether they're quite accurately built for Pathfinder. They may also be short one feat, but that seldom matters.

One scenario's villains used spiked chains, depending on their reach to make the encounter work. In that particular case, I concur that meteor hammers are the closest analogue in Pathfinder. There may also be some clerics whose domains don't do quite what they used to, affecting their tactics. In other cases, you can run things as written.

Grand Lodge ** Venture-Captain, Germany—Düsseldorf aka TerrorTigr

I love the plot of several of the Season 0 scenarios I've looked at and I have played 3.0 and 3.5, but being a very inexperienced PFS GM, I'm a bit worried I might fumble a conversion.

Pages 33 & 34 of the GTPFSOPv4.2 help a lot, but I'm not sure how to handle chronicle sheets with 3.5 items on them...

Andoran ***

Marcus, just make sure your players know that they grant access to the PF version of the item, not the 3.5 version.

For example, an Amulet of Health +2 becomes a Belt of Con +2, at the same 4K gp price.

***** RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 aka Sir_Wulf

Marcus Gföller wrote:
I love the plot of several of the Season 0 scenarios I've looked at and I have played 3.0 and 3.5, but being a very inexperienced PFS GM, I'm a bit worried I might fumble a conversion.

If there's any way that I can help, you need only ask.

Silver Crusade **

James MacKenzie wrote:
Fromper wrote:
I've never GMed anything from Season 0, because I don't want to have to deal with the possibility of needing to convert stats from a game I've never even seen.

Some of my favorite adventures are from Season 0, so I hate to hear someone isn't comfortable running them. With a bit of planning, you'll have no trouble running the early adventures, especially those designed for Tier 1-5.

When you first read the adventure, check to see whether any monsters have changed CR when translated into Pathfinder. If they have, print out a copy of those monsters' stat blocks from the D20 SRD website, then calculate their CMB and CMD. If the CR hasn't changed, use the Pathfinder version.

To translate NPCs, calculate their CMB and CMD. Don't worry whether they're quite accurately built for Pathfinder. They may also be short one feat, but that seldom matters.

One scenario's villains used spiked chains, depending on their reach to make the encounter work. In that particular case, I concur that meteor hammers are the closest analogue in Pathfinder. There may also be some clerics whose domains don't do quite what they used to, affecting their tactics. In other cases, you can run things as written.

So I can spend twice as long prepping a scenario than with any season 1+ scenario. Why would I bother when there are 70+ season 1-4 scenarios I could be running instead, without having to convert them from 3.5 to Pathfinder first?

And that's assuming I'm even capable of doing it. Your first step talks about comparing the CR of Pathfinder monsters to 3.5 monsters. Unless I'm mistaken, the CR given in scenarios is for an entire encounter, not a single monster. Which 3.5 book that I don't own am I supposed to be using to check the CR of the monsters?

I'm happy to play season 0 adventures when someone else runs them, and if someone did the translation into Pathfinder stats for me, I'd have no problem with running them. But it takes long enough for me to prep a normal scenario - I'm not going to spend several hours doing unnecessary extra math and research just to run those older ones.

Which brings up another point, actually. Why is every single GM expected to do the conversions themselves? Why haven't past GMs who have run these adventures in Pathfinder published their conversion on the web for everyone else to download? I understand why Paizo doesn't have time to change all the old PDF files officially, but you'd think every single conversion of a season 0 scenario would already be in the message board discussions by now, so nobody new would ever have to do the math themselves again.

Osirion **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
Why would I bother

I can't speak for anyone else, but in our area, we're new to PFS. The simplest way to pick scenarios seemed to be to work through them in order...which is what we're doing, starting with season 0.

For myself, I think it might have been better if we'd started with a later Season, but some of the scenarios have been quite good.

Grand Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

At one point, they were talking about converting the year 0 module to PF, but that effort apparently fell by the wayside. I realize the campaign staff has limited time, but I would far rather see them converting the early modules than releasing craptastic year 4 ones.

Qadira ****

wow... so many negitive feelings here.

Season 0 scenarios are often MUCH easier to prep then late Season 3 or season 4s. "Conversion times" often amount to checking to see if there is a selected monster in PFS. Often less work in fact, as you don't have to drop a template on it (which you do for many of the season 4 scenarios now). Heck, in my location we normally run these cold (no prep time - handed the scenario write-up as the slot starts), with no more problems than any other seasons scenario run cold - and often with less.

If you've played it, and you like it, ask your judge after the game how much "conversion" was involved in prepping it. Just don't be surprised if he asks you what you mean by "conversion".

Grand Lodge ** Venture-Captain, Germany—Düsseldorf aka TerrorTigr

@Fromper: Nobody is expected to run a Season 0 scenario if they don't want to. Run what you enjoy running.

I, for one, would love to do it because the story of some of them is fun and it doesn't seem like there's all too much extra work involved. So thank you to everybody who's given advice here on how to do it!

If/when I start converting Season 0 scenarios, I'll try to make sure to make my conversion notes available. Will have to check with Mike to make sure I'm not breaking copyrights or something, but I'll see what I can do.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Fromper wrote:
Which 3.5 book that I don't own am I supposed to be using to check the CR of the monsters?

The v.3.5 SRD.

Official rich-text document (download the ZIP at the bottom)
Best web site version

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
nosig wrote:
Season 0 scenarios are often MUCH easier to prep then late Season 3 or season 4s.

I'll second this. I've run a few season 0 scenarios (at low tiers) and they're usually less complex than later ones. In some cases the only conversion necessary is to calculate CMB and CMD for the foes.

They're considerably shorter than later scenarios, so good if you have a short slot to fill.

If you're still wary despite these assurances, get 'Mists of Mwangi', where you get both versions and can compare them side by side.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

I strongly recommend Silent Tide as an early-career scenario for Pathfinders. It has great flavor and story and some awesome settings for the combats, even if they are easy by current standards.

Grand Lodge ****

Also, if you eventually want to play the Eyes of the Ten retirement arc, a lot of season 0 and 1 scenarios have bits that are relevant. Folks who grow up on Season 2-3-4 and then go back for Eyes of the Ten are missing a huge amount of the experience of that arc.

***** RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 aka Sir_Wulf

Fromper wrote:
So I can spend twice as long prepping a scenario than with any season 1+ scenario. Why would I bother when there are 70+ season 1-4 scenarios I could be running instead, without having to convert them from 3.5 to Pathfinder first?

Why bother translating? BECAUSE YOU AREN'T A REAL PATHSTOMPER UNTIL YOU HAVE TRANSLATED A YEAR-ZERO ADVENTURE...

INTO FINNISH! BWAHAHAHAHA!

More seriously, run what you feel like running. I just like the Year Zero mods and enjoy running them. I don't find that they need any more prep than more recent adventures, as many of them are slightly shorter.

**

sieylianna wrote:
At one point, they were talking about converting the year 0 module to PF, but that effort apparently fell by the wayside.

Which is regrettable. If it's simply a matter of time, why not tap the community?

sieylianna wrote:
I would far rather see them converting the early modules than releasing craptastic year 4 ones.

You lost me there...I've liked the year 4 mods so far.

Osirion **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As a player, the bigges issue I'm having with the Season 0 mods is having to translate my Faction to one that existed. And I understand that will continue to happen for Season 1, and maybe 2, right?

As a GM, I've found a few issues converting older scenarios, but nothing insurmountable.

Qadira ****

Heck, the conversion issues are worth it to avoid Haunts. No haunts in season 0!

Andoran ***

YogoZuno wrote:

As a player, the bigges issue I'm having with the Season 0 mods is having to translate my Faction to one that existed. And I understand that will continue to happen for Season 1, and maybe 2, right?

As a GM, I've found a few issues converting older scenarios, but nothing insurmountable.

There is a conversion list in the Guide for which faction missions apply to the new factions from the old scenarios.

Remember that you remain Lantern Lodge/etc., not the faction whose mission you are performing.

Shadow Lodge ***

YogoZuno wrote:

As a player, the bigges issue I'm having with the Season 0 mods is having to translate my Faction to one that existed. And I understand that will continue to happen for Season 1, and maybe 2, right?

As a GM, I've found a few issues converting older scenarios, but nothing insurmountable.

Yes. I have some minor issues with which 'factions' are matched with other factions, (i.e. I don't see Cheliax/Shadow lodge matching very well.) but this is minor.

Still, I'd mix in a few season 3-4 scenarios in their to give you a chance to play your 'true' faction some.

I will say season 0 modules are generally shorter and easier to prep. First, with one exception (#7) the maps are easier for people who draw rather than buy all the gamemastery maps in terms of prep time and portability.

Also, some of the best RPing I've seen and the rails seem a little looser in season 0's. The newer modules seem to run 4+, sometimes closer to 5 hours. If your up against a hard end time (i.e. leave the store at 10), this causes the GMs to hurry things along. Season 0s run 3-4 hours and it allows players more room to 'play' I feel.

P.S. Yogo, I suspect you used to play L5R back in the day. If so, nice to see a fellow fan. My first PFS character had some L5R influences.

Shadow Lodge ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some of my absolute favorite scenarios are from Season 0. As many have already said, they actually generally require LESS prep time than most new scenarios because of their length. I can easily run an old scenario in 3-4 hours easily with plenty of RP and fluff, while I feel crunched for time with new Season 4 adventures and a 5 hour block.

But, the downside is that the different sub-tiers are generally not balanced well for Season 0 (and even Season 1) scenarios. They seem to be written for one specific sub-tier in mind, and then extra mobs added or reduced in the others.

Some of the best scenarios in existence though, include:

0-01 - Silent Tide
0-04 - The Frozen Fingers of Midnight
0-05 - Mists of Mwangi
0-07 - Among the Living
0-08 - Slave Pits of Absalom
0-16 - To Scale the Dragon
0-24 - Decline of Glory

All fantastic adventures, and all from Year Zero.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

YogoZuno wrote:

As a player, the bigges issue I'm having with the Season 0 mods is having to translate my Faction to one that existed. And I understand that will continue to happen for Season 1, and maybe 2, right?

As a GM, I've found a few issues converting older scenarios, but nothing insurmountable.

It's hardest for Shadow Lodge I think. Though as a GM, I do get a sadistic glee watching one of our Lodge players squirm while reading the Cheliax faction missions...

Paizo Employee ** Developer

bugleyman wrote:
sieylianna wrote:
At one point, they were talking about converting the year 0 module to PF, but that effort apparently fell by the wayside.
Which is regrettable. If it's simply a matter of time, why not tap the community?

Every time this question comes up, it's the same answer. Even were we to use volunteers or freelancers to convert Season 0 scenarios, those community members wouldn't be able to perform the development, layout, and editing of the finished product, which is where the logjam happens. When faced with either spending internal resources on converting 4-year-old material or working on new content, we'll almost always choose the latter. That may change in the future, or our bandwidth may grow to accommodate such additional projects, but for the time being, having GMs do the conversions for their own games is the extent to which we can "tap the community."

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Along the upgrade guidelines...

Any tips for NPCs? Bloodlines favoured class options, etc?

**

Mark Moreland wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
sieylianna wrote:
At one point, they were talking about converting the year 0 module to PF, but that effort apparently fell by the wayside.
Which is regrettable. If it's simply a matter of time, why not tap the community?
Every time this question comes up, it's the same answer. Even were we to use volunteers or freelancers to convert Season 0 scenarios, those community members wouldn't be able to perform the development, layout, and editing of the finished product, which is where the logjam happens. When faced with either spending internal resources on converting 4-year-old material or working on new content, we'll almost always choose the latter. That may change in the future, or our bandwidth may grow to accommodate such additional projects, but for the time being, having GMs do the conversions for their own games is the extent to which we can "tap the community."

To be blunt, as long as I don't have to make coversions, I don't care how the mods look.

Osirion ****

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Furious Kender wrote:
To be blunt, as long as I don't have to make coversions, I don't care how the mods look.

It's not a matter of making it "look good", FK, it's that the format for PFS scenarios has changed quite a bit since Season 0, so everything would need to be updated to fit the new style. This would even be the case if these scenarios were reprinted verbatim (which they aren't, since they're converted to PFRPG). There are a limited number of people of Paizo who do that kind of thing, and (very logically) the Paizo Powers That Be (PPTB) would rather those folks spend their time working on the many, many new products that the company releases every month.

*

Two questions

1. Are players eligible for 2 PP in the season 0 scenarios? If so, how does one determine if the second PP has been earned since the faction missions no longer apply

2. Are the season 0 scenarios easy enough that i should consider limiting them to four players? I'm running the silent tide on Monday and my current roster consists level wise of 1 4th, 1 3rd, and 4 2nd level characters..which means tier 1-2. After looking over the scenario I can't imagine that it will be remotely challenging. My plan was to run through the whole season doing one scenario a week and I'm considering limiting the number of seats moving forward.

Any thoughts/advice?

Thanks

Hey...I just realized I'm the only one on this forum without stars after my name :-) This monday will be my third time running a session.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Gwaedh wrote:

Two questions

1. Are players eligible for 2 PP in the season 0 scenarios? If so, how does one determine if the second PP has been earned since the faction missions no longer apply

2. Are the season 0 scenarios easy enough that i should consider limiting them to four players? I'm running the silent tide on Monday and my current roster consists level wise of 1 4th, 1 3rd, and 4 2nd level characters..which means tier 1-2. After looking over the scenario I can't imagine that it will be remotely challenging. My plan was to run through the whole season doing one scenario a week and I'm considering limiting the number of seats moving forward.

Any thoughts/advice?

Thanks

Hey...I just realized I'm the only one on this forum without stars after my name :-) This monday will be my third time running a session.

1. They are! Check out the secondary success conditions document.

2. Yes, most of the season 0 games are on the easier side of the spectrum. If you are running this as a private event--the same players, not advertised publicly--feel free to invite whomever you'd like. You can restrict your table size to 4 players should you see fit in this case, as it is your private event. You could also encourage the level 4 and 3 players to roll up new characters as well, as they will not find the 1-2 tier of Silent Tide remotely challenging.

You also don't need to start playing PFS in season 0; I'd recommend looking at the scenarios at each season and sorting them by their review rating. There's some great level 1-5 scenarios out there that you'll miss by only doing season 0.

Best of luck on your first star!

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