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Sorcerer with a spellbook


Rules Questions


Is it possible for a sorcerer to carry around a spellbook and scribe spells into it from scrolls that he finds, assuming scribe costs are paid and spellcraft roll succeeds? I have looked and only see wizards being referenced as being able to write spells into a spellbook (which would normally be the only class, aside from magus, that would logically need to do so).

I am aware that the spellbook is useless for the sorcerer in terms of spell casting. However if a wizard happened to play at the same table we could theoretically trade spells.

Thematically I am hoping for a sorcerer that acts and behaves as a wizard. He carries a spellbook that he "studies" in the morning and also has a pet toad with him that is his "familiar" but is really just a random toad he found on the street.

Shadow Lodge

I don't know if that is possible, but I do know that it is brilliant if it works.

Cheliax

I am not sure if its possible, I know that other spellcasters would love you at the table for it.

Shadow Lodge

If you take the Arcane bloodline, you actually get a real familiar.

Paizo Employee Global Organized Play Coordinator

I did some research and do not think this is possible as you have layed it out. However, this POST may prove useful for role playing purposes.

Osirion

Concept sounds pretty cool. You could of course carry around a spellbook without spells and only notes (perhaps on spells) at early levels. Then later you could put Pages of Spell Knowledge RAW Ultimate Equipment pg314. A wondrous magic item that IMO saves the sorceror class from its narrow field of spell selection.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Patrick Wishart wrote:
Concept sounds pretty cool. You could of course carry around a spellbook without spells and only notes (perhaps on spells) at early levels. Then later you could put Pages of Spell Knowledge RAW Ultimate Equipment pg314. A wondrous magic item that IMO saves the sorceror class from its narrow field of spell selection.

This is an excellent suggestion, not that the book would be useful to wizards that you group with but still.

On another note, it should be possible to carry scrolls and a spellbook and just let a wizard scribe for you and copy their spells for you (and you pay the cost) if you want to carry a spellbook for people to copy.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

Also... Ultimate Equipment item mnemonic vestment makes this a great choice for sorcs, bards. Oracles are left in the cold due to the fact that even in PFS, I don't think a wizard's spellbook can be used as a divine magic writing...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Poodu wrote:

Is it possible for a sorcerer to carry around a spellbook and scribe spells into it from scrolls that he finds, assuming scribe costs are paid and spellcraft roll succeeds? I have looked and only see wizards being referenced as being able to write spells into a spellbook (which would normally be the only class, aside from magus, that would logically need to do so).

No.. since sorcerers can not learn spells, they don't meet the requirement for scribing them into a spellbook.

Qadira

I have a Rogue that has a single level of wizard, so I have a spell book. Often I play with Wizards (or magi, or alchemists) who get a chance to copy from my book. Thus, the party is NOT "top heavy in wizards" and is more balanced - yet wizards get to share spells (thru my Rogue).

Back in the days:

This sort of grew out of a Rogue I ran back in LG days. He collected wizard spell books (you could get them as treasure on the "certs"), and would share these books with the wizards he adventured with.

So, think of taking a level of wizard...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
nosig wrote:

I have a Rogue that has a single level of wizard, so I have a spell book. Often I play with Wizards (or magi, or alchemists) who get a chance to copy from my book. Thus, the party is NOT "top heavy in wizards" and is more balanced - yet wizards get to share spells (thru my Rogue).

** spoiler omitted **

So, think of taking a level of wizard...

That works. You are limited however to learning and sharing cantrips and first level spells.

Qadira

LazarX wrote:
nosig wrote:

I have a Rogue that has a single level of wizard, so I have a spell book. Often I play with Wizards (or magi, or alchemists) who get a chance to copy from my book. Thus, the party is NOT "top heavy in wizards" and is more balanced - yet wizards get to share spells (thru my Rogue).

** spoiler omitted **

So, think of taking a level of wizard...

That works. You are limited however to learning and sharing cantrips and first level spells.

wha? nope.

you can scribe a spell to your spellbook of a level that you can't cast, you just need to make the spellcraft check (take 10 and keep your spellcraft high).
My Rogue has 6th level spells in his book - but then he's adventured with 11th level wizards.

(edited)
here's a link to a thread that goes into more detail on scribing to spellbooks
share spellbooks

Qadira

learning and casting, sure. But you can scribe anything (on the wizard spell list) if you make the spellcraft check. You just can't cast it until you have the spell slots.

It specifically calls out "Wizard spell list" instead of "wizard spells you can cast" its entirely intended for you to be able to write down spells that are outside your casting range, you just cant cast what you dont have slots for.

Shadow Lodge

I may need to roll a sorcerer now.

Andoran

All words in quotations in this post are meant for flavor purposes.

1) Buy a 'spellbook'.
2) Buy scrolls your Sorcerer can cast (but may or may not know, your choice).
3) Stick the scrolls into the 'spellbook', making them the 'pages' that you 'wrote'.
4) The sorcerer can then 'reference' the book all he/she wants to 'memorize' the spell in the morning (as long as it's one the Sorc already knows) for general use.
5) The sorcerer can reference the book while in combat to 'cast a spell' he/she may not have memorized (by using the scroll).
6) You could let a Wizard 'copy' the spells from your book into their own. You remove the page from your book (by selling it for half of what you bought it for). They pay 'you' (not really you, just regular old buying one from the book) the original scroll cost, and you 'pay the other 50% in taxes' (since where did that other 50%gp go?).

1-5 cost you no more, really, than doing anything else you would do as a Sorc for scrolls. #6 would end up costing you a lot of money if you did it too often, though.

***This post is not me condoning or suggesting the sale of items from one character to another in game. If that is what you got from this, re-read what I posted.***

Taldor

I hate to say it, but this may prove that the "mnemonic vestment" may be too powerful, since a sorcerer could take one level of wizard to get a legitimate spellbook, copy any wizard spell into it, and then with mnemonic vestment (which only costs 5000 gp) be able to spontaneously cast anything in that book as if he knew it.

That would certainly make a normal wizard an inferior class.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Benrislove wrote:

learning and casting, sure. But you can scribe anything (on the wizard spell list) if you make the spellcraft check. You just can't cast it until you have the spell slots.

It specifically calls out "Wizard spell list" instead of "wizard spells you can cast" its entirely intended for you to be able to write down spells that are outside your casting range, you just cant cast what you dont have slots for.

You can't scribe what you can't learn. You can't learn spells beyond your level to cast.


I want to make sure I understand what is being said.

Let's say we have a 6th level Sorcerer, who knows a 3rd level spell, and of course lower level spells.

He buys a spellbook, the same as a wizard does. For some reason he is incapable of putting the spells he knows down on the pages of the spellbook? A spellbook he could loan or give to a wizard friend who could then learn spells from it?

But if he took Scribe Scroll as a feat, he could scribe scrolls which a wizard could learn from, he is just totally incapable of scribing them in a spellbook?

Not sure the argument makes any sense to me.


LazarX wrote:
Benrislove wrote:

learning and casting, sure. But you can scribe anything (on the wizard spell list) if you make the spellcraft check. You just can't cast it until you have the spell slots.

It specifically calls out "Wizard spell list" instead of "wizard spells you can cast" its entirely intended for you to be able to write down spells that are outside your casting range, you just cant cast what you dont have slots for.

You can't scribe what you can't learn. You can't learn spells beyond your level to cast.

No, you can scribe ANY wizard spell you can make the DC for, even a spell you can't (yet) cast. All that limits you is 1) Actually having a spellbook and 2) having a high enough Spellcraft.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Mimo "Leit" Tomblebur wrote:

I hate to say it, but this may prove that the "mnemonic vestment" may be too powerful, since a sorcerer could take one level of wizard to get a legitimate spellbook, copy any wizard spell into it, and then with mnemonic vestment (which only costs 5000 gp) be able to spontaneously cast anything in that book as if he knew it.

That would certainly make a normal wizard an inferior class.

A wizard can use his arcane bond once per day to call forth any spell in his spellbook.

A sorcerer can use the magic vestment once per day to cast any spell from magical writings he possesses (and is high enough level to cast).

What is it about the second that makes it vastly more powerful than the first?


Dennis Baker wrote:
Mimo "Leit" Tomblebur wrote:

I hate to say it, but this may prove that the "mnemonic vestment" may be too powerful, since a sorcerer could take one level of wizard to get a legitimate spellbook, copy any wizard spell into it, and then with mnemonic vestment (which only costs 5000 gp) be able to spontaneously cast anything in that book as if he knew it.

That would certainly make a normal wizard an inferior class.

A wizard can use his arcane bond once per day to call forth any spell in his spellbook.

A sorcerer can use the magic vestment once per day to cast any spell from magical writings he possesses (and is high enough level to cast).

What is it about the second that makes it vastly more powerful than the first?

At 5000gp, there is nothing to stop a sorcerer from buying multiple mnemonic vestments and thus using the ability multiple times per day.

Shadow Lodge

David Haller wrote:
At 5000gp, there is nothing to stop a sorcerer from buying multiple mnemonic vestments and thus using the ability multiple times per day.

Except for having to carry these multiple robes around all day and change clothes each time he uses them.


TOZ wrote:
David Haller wrote:
At 5000gp, there is nothing to stop a sorcerer from buying multiple mnemonic vestments and thus using the ability multiple times per day.
Except for having to carry these multiple robes around all day and change clothes each time he uses them.

Well, a Handy Haversack.

My thinking (or planning, I should say) is that these robes are very nice for things like long-term daily buffs (a few robe changes at the campsite, villa, castle, etc. in the morning isn't too bad), and of course it's very nice for those very useful spells which sorcerers might hesitate to take because they aren't the sort of things one casts many, many times per day (like planar binding, or scrying).

I can totally see having my "mind blank robe", my "non detection robe", my "life bubble robe" and so on at higher (and richer) levels :)

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Mordenkainen's Wondrous Wardrobe?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Mordenkainen's Wondrous Wardrobe?

Let's just say that I'm very happy my sorceress - in the distant day she's high enough level - will be able to cast Create Demiplane without having to use a precious spell slot ;)

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

David Haller wrote:
At 5000gp, there is nothing to stop a sorcerer from buying multiple mnemonic vestments and thus using the ability multiple times per day.

Well at most it's one casting per encounter so 4-5 times a day.

So the sorcerer pays 20,000 gold, changes his robes ever 15 minutes, spends another 5,000-20,000 on spells to populate a spellbook he can use 4 times a day?

It sounds to me like the expenses balance pretty well with the benefits. You are giving up a lot of other possible items to do that.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I would say no because a scroll and a spellbook aren't the same thing.

Let us not forget the difference between the two.

A Scroll of Fireball is 1 page. The creation of the scroll itself absorbs all the "magical" energy, material components, etc. needed to cast the spell.

So how is that different then Fireball in a spellbook?

Well Fireball in a spellbook takes up FIVE pages and tells the Wizard everything he has to do to cast the spell... whether it be whiggling his fingers, chanting, tossing components in the air, and or doing a jiggle.

A Wizard is committing to memory everything he needs to do to cast a spell where as a sorcerer just wills a fireball into creation.


Dennis Baker wrote:
David Haller wrote:
At 5000gp, there is nothing to stop a sorcerer from buying multiple mnemonic vestments and thus using the ability multiple times per day.

Well at most it's one casting per encounter so 4-5 times a day.

So the sorcerer pays 20,000 gold, changes his robes ever 15 minutes, spends another 5,000-20,000 on spells to populate a spellbook he can use 4 times a day?

It sounds to me like the expenses balance pretty well with the benefits. You are giving up a lot of other possible items to do that.

Yes, true, but that's always the calculus of magic shopping.

For me (12 level sorcerer), it's worth having, say, one robe dedicated to casting Contingency (one of those uber useful, save-your-life spells which sorcerers seldom take), and the other just to use for things as-needed, like Planar Binding or Scrying. That's 14,000gp for two robes and three scrolls... not really a *lot*, but not a *little*, either, at 12th level.

Other scrolls I'm likely to carry (ignoring the whole spellbook idea right now and just focusing on specific spells) include Stone to Flesh, Secret Chest, Break Enchantment, Permanent Image, Shrink Item, Make Whole, Shadow Projection, Secure Shelter and maybe Mage's Sanctum and Geas: spells very handy but unlikely to be needed multiple times each day or even daily.

That would be about 23,000gp and change for considerable expansion of arcane flexibility. Compared to her other high-cost items (+5 cloak of protection (25k), robe of arcane heritage (16k) and a +6 headband of charisma (36k), its collective cost is about average.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

How would you think that compares to the ubiquitous pearls of power that pretty much every wizard and cleric loads up on?

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