Why Conan (1982 Movie) makes me want this game more


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

I just watched Conan the Barbarian for the second time in my life (I know, I'm slacking big time)and looking how skills work in current MMOs make me scratch my head a bit. In most MMOs, the characters Conan and Sabotai are simply not available given the structure of the game, class based. You have to choose to be a fighter or a stealth-er or an archer, no mixing!! No unexpected skill combinations! There must be a cookie cutter around everything we feed to the players or we can't balance it! -Pah! What an archaic and limiting method.

So why does Conan make me dream in Pathfinder Online colors? Because of the skill system, creating a Conan is as simple as asking yourself what they should have, then having it. Class restrictions are such a constraint that keep you from making the correct mix of brawn and cunning that make characters like Conan what they are, diverse heroes.

And that's why I'm happy PFO decided to go skill based. At first I wasn't sure about this departure from the Pathfinder I'm used to, but now I am really excited to see it in action.

Waited for Darkfall since 2005 to get the skill system right, they refused to put any kind of skill-cap and put the game out buggy... huge letdown. Mortal Online was even worse with the bugs, but their skill system was a step in a better direction.

Now PFO gets that chance to make that third bowl of yummy game design, I hope its delicious and I don't get eaten by bears.

Crom!

Goblin Squad Member

Aren't the skill systems still within the archtypes?


Kard Warstein wrote:
Aren't the skill systems still within the archtypes?

Only slightly.

If you stay within your archetypes skill selection for a full 20 level then you will have exclusive access to a "Capstone" skill. While the capstone skill will not be available to folks who mix and match, it's the only restriction we've heard so far.

Goblin Squad Member

Right, you can cross over to other archtypes should you so choose. I was just making sure they didn't take away the ability to be a pure fighter when I wasn't looking.

Goblin Squad Member

Perverseness wrote:
Kard Warstein wrote:
Aren't the skill systems still within the archtypes?

Only slightly.

If you stay within your archetypes skill selection for a full 20 level then you will have exclusive access to a "Capstone" skill. While the capstone skill will not be available to folks who mix and match, it's the only restriction we've heard so far.

capstones will be available to folk that mix and match, but only if they do it "the right way" (master one archetype, then move on to next).

Goblin Squad Member

I love the added benefit for sticking it out for a long term leveling plan. I'll not multiclass till I get capstones, but I plan on trying to get as much as I can on one character, even if it takes 10 years to do it.

Goblin Squad Member

That is certainly a nice point to sandboxes over Theme Parks. In most Theme Park games you can customize your character within a VERY limited set of restrictions. Basically gear and how you distribute your points within your classes's tree which only gives you so much freedom.

The nice part about Pathfinder itself is there is that not only do the base classes cover a broad range of styles but there is a TON of variation within each class as to how you want to play it before you even get in to the whole concept of multi-class characters.

If Pathfinder Online is able to retain even half of that, it should basically allow anyone to form a character idea in their head and then build around that idea.

For instance I've always wanted to play a semi-martial character who uses fire magic for offence and holy magic for healing. In the Pathfinder system that is not only possible, but a very viable and powerful looking character. A cleric of Sarenrae with the fire and healing domains. Clerics are semi-martial (At least more so than a traditional caster class like a wizard or sorcerer) and fire and healing are a very potent looking combo of domains.

Of course this game doesn't run off the Pathfinder system but I hope and expect to see a lot of the same types of characters available in both.

Goblin Squad Member

Kard Warstein wrote:
I love the added benefit for sticking it out for a long term leveling plan. I'll not multiclass till I get capstones, but I plan on trying to get as much as I can on one character, even if it takes 10 years to do it.

Well as much as you can = infinite realistically.

if reaching capstones is expected to take 2.5 years, ignoring of course the detail that taking a capstone in an archtype that your stats aren't good for may take much longer. Just going by the 11 archtypes intended for launch, you are looking at over 27 years. throw in another 3 years for a craft, and assume that goblinworks will likely add more archtypes as the game goes on...

Goblin Squad Member

That is also assuming you fully train everything you can in each class in the time it takes to reach capstone. I'm hoping once I reach capstone in my first class I can go back and hit some things I missed along the way, and some support skills that aren't even related to classes.

Goblin Squad Member

I've also lamented the inability to accurately portray a Conan style character in most games. In the short stories, he's clearly a melee brawler with lots of strength, but he's also an excellent thief (great climber) who's surprisingly quick for his size. Lastly, he's dealt with enough magic users and hypnotists to be able to shake off allot of what they can dish out. So high dex, strength, and con, an affinity for a variety of weapons, decent stealth and thieving, and some spell resistance.

The only chance I'd have of creating that is in a pure sandbox that allows for mixing and matching. Here's hoping PO is up to the challenge.

Goblin Squad Member

That's because the Conan style character is a balance breaker. It's a "god mode" character archtype.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
Kard Warstein wrote:
I love the added benefit for sticking it out for a long term leveling plan. I'll not multiclass till I get capstones, but I plan on trying to get as much as I can on one character, even if it takes 10 years to do it.

Well as much as you can = infinite realistically.

if reaching capstones is expected to take 2.5 years, ignoring of course the detail that taking a capstone in an archtype that your stats aren't good for may take much longer. Just going by the 11 archtypes intended for launch, you are looking at over 27 years. throw in another 3 years for a craft, and assume that goblinworks will likely add more archtypes as the game goes on...

This is true, and I love the prospect that nobody will every truly 'max' out. Everyone will have the oppertunity to build their character to the specs they want, how long it takes them to get there will vary.

By planning on trying to get as much as I can on one character doesn't mean I have any delusion that I'll get everything in the game, as that's obviously completely unrealistic.

Goblin Squad Member

Kard Warstein wrote:
That's because the Conan style character is a balance breaker. It's a "god mode" character archtype.

It's virtually impossible to make Gandalf in a game like this, too, for the same reason.

I wonder how much impact games like this will have on the next generation of fantasy authors. Will they generally constrain their characters to something that would make sense in a fantasy role-playing game?


Nihimon wrote:


I wonder how much impact games like this will have on the next generation of fantasy authors. Will they generally constrain their characters to something that would make sense in a fantasy role-playing game?

Personally, I doubt it. As someone who prides themselves on being able to write a decent book, you strive pretty hard NOT to fall into stereotypes. The characters that you stereotype end up being remarkably flat and one dimensional, and everyone wants to make their own characters unique and whatnot. Imagine a character in a book that was ONLY a "fighter", or just a "Ranger". It happens, but not in decent literature.

In short, I think that this has already happened on some scale, but the authors that do WELL will never fall into this category.

Goblin Squad Member

@Darkrunner, to be clear, I was wondering whether authors would avoid "god mode" characters, not whether they would stereotype them into base classes.

Goblin Squad Member

Kard Warstein wrote:
That's because the Conan style character is a balance breaker. It's a "god mode" character archtype.

This is true. Makes sense given the time period the stories were written in. I was referring more to someone who's play style was similar. Obviously they wouldn't be nearly as effective or essentially flawless as Conan (without a decidedly biased author to back them up).

Every point put into stealth is one not put into combat and vice versa, so you'd be trading expertise for variety. Still, I think it would be easier to attempt in a class optional sandbox game than in a more traditional mmo or even rpg.


There's more to the discussion of a conan-esque character than whether or not he is a "god-mode" character. He isn't. Conan cannot be well-defined in PFRPG terms precisely *because* of the 3e multiclassing system. In PFO terms - compared to the stories by R.E.H. - he develops over time from archetype to archetype. Age has taken something of a toll on him when the last chronological stories happen, but his skills set is very, very broad and deep. The stories cover (if memory serves) his entire life from a wee teenager leaving Cimmeria to the end of his reign as King of Aquilonia. 30 - 40 years' game time at a best guess, so call it 10 years of real time in PFO. That's 4 archetypes fully trained, probably more of a solid 3 with a smattering of stuff in 2 or 3 others that compliment the core trio.

Goblin Squad Member

The Dragon Reborn is a god mode character. (Not using his other name to avoid spoilers.) In the course of the 2nd book he takes out 5 targets that can only be killed by hitting them through the eye with a bow at 100 yards in a matter of seconds, and kills a blademaster using a sword in single combat without the use of saidan AKA magic. But the entire premise of him being The Dragon Reborn is that he is pretty much the most powerful Saidan user ever, as clearly comes into play in the later books. Oh and he is also trained in tracking, sneaking, and playing the flute. Not bad.

By comparison... having a stealthy barbarian who can use a bow and can resist magic... not so OP. But more importantly I think it's something that could be pulled off.

Highlander (hills or mountains): You were born and raised in rugged badlands or hills, and you've become something of an expert at evading the predators, monsters, and worse that haunt the highlands. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Stealth checks, and Stealth is always a class skill for you. This trait bonus increases to +2 in hilly or rocky areas.

Bam. Your barbarian is now stealthy, and that's even a really good backstory for a barbarian.

I'm going to guess that there are probably some feats or items I could find that would give a barbarian an unusually high will save but I don't care to look right now.

As far as making them decent with a bow, it's a matter of having a high strength modifier (like any barbarian should) and a dex that isn't total crap. Give them a composite bow made for someone with their strength, and they will be able to use it to pretty good effect.


@ Nihimon

I see your point, having reread your initial comment. I still think that authors will (and should) avoid "classes", per say, because real people are more interesting than that.
*shrugs* I will withdraw from discussing literature, however. Carry on with your conversation.

Goblin Squad Member

Honestly, this would be my ideal way to build a character in an mmo. Create a concept or borrow one from a book or film, and then breakdown and translate his abilities and personality into game mechanics.

I think the biggest danger is that by allowing such freedom in character creation, you run the risk of lousy combinations that completely don't work or simply don't work well together. Personally I think it's worth the risk, but I'm not the one staking my career on this game's success.

Goblin Squad Member

I wonder how long it will take for some MMO to start offering the ability to begin play at level cap.

A buddy of mine at work is always talking about how he's completely sick of the level grind in most games, and he hates the way games give you abilities gradually as you level up. He really wants to start play with all of the abilities he's going to get, and then just enjoy the story.

I'm not very interested in the story in games like these. SWTOR completely killed off whatever minimal interest I had. But I can see the point about wanting to design a character and then play that character with those abilities rather than constantly "earning" new ones.

Superman didn't gradually develop new powers every three or four comics...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Conan is not a barbarian. Conan is a ranger with FE: Human.

He might have a level of barb and a level of rogue, and he might have Iron Will. But once you realize that 90% of his opponents are human, and FE: Human is so bloody powerful compared to every other combat skill, Conan's entire build falls right into place.

Light armor? Check. Massive combat ability? +6 FE at level 10? +4 at 5th? Check. Stealth? check. Tracking? Check. Prefers the Wild? Check. Intimidating? Check. Smart? With 6 sp/level? Check. Favored Terrains hills/forest, Urban, Sea, Plains/Desert? Check.

Conan is rarely portrayed as being 'berserk'. Ferocious, yes, but he's mostly really, really good with a weapon. That would scream weapon training, but he's too good for that to be the case, and has too many other skills.

Build Conan as a barb/1, Ranger/x, and you solve your archetype problems.

Oh, and remember he tops out around level 10. Conan is not written anywhere near the power of a higher level D&D fighter.

==Aelryinth

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I wonder how long it will take for some MMO to start offering the ability to begin play at level cap.

A buddy of mine at work is always talking about how he's completely sick of the level grind in most games, and he hates the way games give you abilities gradually as you level up. He really wants to start play with all of the abilities he's going to get, and then just enjoy the story.

I'm not very interested in the story in games like these. SWTOR completely killed off whatever minimal interest I had. But I can see the point about wanting to design a character and then play that character with those abilities rather than constantly "earning" new ones.

Superman didn't gradually develop new powers every three or four comics...

Guild Wars 2 was sorta like this for me. Once you find a weapon combination you like, you can pretty much stick with it till endgame. You get better stats and some minor difference through Traits, but the combat feels fairly similar at both level 5 and level 80.

Goblin Squad Member

@Mcduff, I think that's still a pretty long way off. I haven't played GW2, but I doubt you'd be able to take a level 5 character into a level 80 PvE area...

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon, Correct. Though you can do instanced pvp at all levels. I was referring more to your basic abilities and fighting style. A level five paladin in wow has a fraction of the abilities he'll have at level eighty. Not so in guild wars. You unlock your combat skills almost immediately, and max out your utility skill selection by thirty. So for fifty or so levels, you can basically play the same way. Or you can change it up by trying a different weapon style.

Goblin Squad Member

Personally, I think my friend is crazy. For me, advancement is a crucial part of game play. I think what's really going on is that he is so thoroughly sick of the level grind that he's overcompensating by looking to just start out at max level. In reality, there will always be some kind of advancement going on - maybe it's buying better equipment or gaining faction/reputation.

Although, I have had to fundamentally reorganize my hotbars too many times because of new abilities to really feel comfortable with the WoW model.

Community / Forums / Paizo / Licensed Products / Digital Games / Pathfinder Online / Why Conan (1982 Movie) makes me want this game more All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Online