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Alchemists, drug trafficking, and organized play


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Osirion

Ok, I was reading the Gamemastery guide and I found the section about Drugs and addictions...- so before anyone jumps down my throat about "no crafting" in organized play, I just want people to remember Alchemists and Gunslingers.
They are allowed to use modified versions of the crafting rules in order to purchase bombs and ammo (respectively) at a discount as well as giving a bonus on day-job rolls. Also I want to remind folks that poisoner rogues and ninjas have always available access to poisons.

So my question becomes- Are drugs an "always available" item?
If not- is there a way to make them available? (There was one scenario where we ran across a merchant selling pesh, and I would have bought it if I knew what it did)

Can we have access to discounted drugs with a successful craft alchemy check? Is there some type of archetype or class, or feat maybe that would allow such a thing? Can I have Profession: drug dealer?
I'm just thinking...If I can successfully brew a bottle of Elven Absinthe, and sell it for 500g/glass... (IMO I think the folks at Paizo might have had a bit too much to drink when they thought 500g per dose was anything resembling sane) -It should be 500g per bottle....but what can ya do?

Is there a list somewhere about what ingredients are needed for a given drug? (I remember when poisons and potions had an ingredient list- so that when you killed certain creatures or explored dangerous regions you could gather rare ingredients)

Shadow Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I can't, from my desk on campus, answer the drug question (I don't recall offhand if the Gamemastery Guide is part of the core assumption even, since it's not listed on the additional resources page), but:

I believe that you can, yes, have Profession: Drug Dealer. What a Pathfinder character does in downtime when not undertaking missions for the society is their own affair.

As far as discounted drugs, I believe that Alchemists and Gunslingers *are* the only two exceptions, and their ability to do so were written individually into the additional resources page. There's no harm in asking for or suggesting this sort of thing of course.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Melbourne aka KestlerGunner

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A drug dealing player character would be best suited to a home game rather than a good-aligned PG13 shared community campaign. It'd cause more issues than it would fun.
Pathfinder Society is more Hank Schraeder than Walter White.

Taldor ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game Subscriber

Nothing from the GMG is on the Additional Resources for players, so you couldn't make anything beyond a Day Job roll.

Authors can use the GMG in the adventure, and it's on the Core assumption for GM's to know the rules effects for items in the adventure though.

EDIT: And as KestlerGunner mentioned, PFS is PG-13. Drug use and references is not really all that appropriate for such a setting.

Osirion

So, making it (except for the purpose of dayjob rolls) is prohibited, and otherwise you must pay full price for it?

Ok and...unless you happen across a drug dealer during an adventure- buying MAY be prohibited- depending on the drug and what book its from?

(Daemon seed IS legal, I just saw it on the additional resources page. :P)

Osirion

many of the Drugs are from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting:Rival Guide. If they are listed under "poisons" then theyre legal. Otherwise...I'll just have to buy them as I come across them. Even if they arent on a chronicle- IF the GM decides that the Merchant will sell it to me- I paid for it, I put it on my character sheet.

If they didnt want characters to have it- they shouldnt have written a scenario with someone who sells it.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Melbourne aka KestlerGunner

There's soul-eating demons and torture-happy sadomasochists in scenarios too. You gonna play one of those as your next character?

I am all for complicated drug dealer characters in my role playing, but young teens play PFS. You need to think about how you're representing the hobby when you play publicly. Not only that, but you'd be hopelessly compromised. It'd be like watching "Dexter" if the show had to be G rated. Not worth it!

Best for home games IMHO.

Osirion

Calm down K/G, youre acting like I'm suggesting we get all Saints Row up in PFS. This is not the case, its not a whole lot different than the kids at PFS saying they're spending all their gold on ale and wenches. Really- all the dm says is, "Okay, youre getting drunk and you spend the night with a barmaid. Now mark off 50g from your character sheet and make a fortitude save VS hangover" ....moving on. All the "adult" situations are glossed over and happen behind the black.

If I'm selling drugs- I make my profession check and be done with it.
If I'm buying drugs- if the DM wants to make it difficult he says, "Make a diplomacy check to find a guy, make a perception check to make sure he isnt a cop, make a sense motive check to make sure he isnt a snitch and that he isnt trying to scam you, and then mark off the gold spent."
Or if he wants to save time and doesnt care...he will just have you mark off that you bought drugs.
If I'm using drugs- I make my save vs addiction and roll appropriate dice for the effects. (not much different than taking a potion really...except with negative effects)

All of this is glossed over, we dont RP it in great detail. In fact- The DM CAN enforce alcohol addiction if he/she really wants to. So for PFS if its a moderate (or worse) addiction you'd have to put that down on "conditions gained" unless you used some form of restoration...

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Melbourne aka KestlerGunner

Vixeryz wrote:
Calm down K/G, youre acting like I'm suggesting we get all Saints Row up in PFS.

Well, you did namee the thread 'Alchemists, Drug Trafficking and Organised Play' :b

I don't really understand what you as a player get out of introducing a focus on drugs into the game. You get the numerical disadvantages of using drugs with very little RPing allowable, sometimes zero RPing if you have a kid on your table.

Because the organised play campaign is thematically good/neutral, I really doubt they are going to create special concessions for drug using/dealing characters.

There are already enough rules written into the Alchemist to use drugs/mutagens to gain extraordinary abilities without the writers needing to flesh out a system around drug manufacture.

I just really think you're trying to put a square peg in a round hole here. Sorry if that's coming across as being holier than thou.

Cheliax

Personally I have no problem with it, and if you were at my table I would allow it. The idea that we need to keep potential "teens" from this concept is beyond ludicrous. If your teens are playing this game, they already have a pretty good idea of the potential evils in the world. If they have access to the internet, well they have probably lost any innocence you believe them to have. If they live in America they probably have had some degree of drug training either in the D.A.R.E program or health class.

Osirion

Well said Nimon.
And @K/G, dont forget that many of the drugs have bonuses that are well worth any "numerical disadvantages".
RPing drug use isnt even necessary. Like I said, I tell the DM I'm taking it and mark it on my character sheet. Nuff said.

I think it would be interesting to make "smoke bombs" out of (inhalation delivery) drugs, or "poison" your blades with (injury delivery) drugs and get "the baddies" stoned.

Cheliax ***

Several points on this.
.
Yeah, I have PG rated PCs... Ex. I run a "Lady of the Evening" - and at times, when I have a 10 year old at the table maybe she's very toned down (or I play someone else). When no kids are around, she's very over the top (yeah, she completed someones faction mission with her "night job roll").

I have often played with someone who has a PC with Profession "Dealer". Nice character, and an Alchemist. Kind of reminds me of Shaggy from Scooby-doo.

As to Drugs - check out Clearear from the Adventurers Armory. +2 perception and Kn Skills, -2 Cha skills for 6 hours. 15 gp a dose. I do wish it had a Craft DC so my Alchemist can make it. And "being twitchy" is easy to roll play.

Cheliax *

I was under the impression if an item wasn't allowed if an item isn't available to PCs under the Additional Resources page or in the core assumption, and it's not on the chronicle sheet, then no matter how much of it you buy durring a session, you can't keep the item between games. Because those are the rules.

I have a hard time beleiving that Paizo is serious about he PG 13 rating when they encourage people to play Cheliaxian characters.

*

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nimon wrote:


Personally I have no problem with it, and if you were at my table I would allow it. The idea that we need to keep potential "teens" from this concept is beyond ludicrous. If your teens are playing this game, they already have a pretty good idea of the potential evils in the world. If they have access to the internet, well they have probably lost any innocence you believe them to have. If they live in America they probably have had some degree of drug training either in the D.A.R.E program or health class.

That may or may not be, but if you have a 12-year-old whom you don't otherwise know at your table at a con or game day, you have no idea what that kid actually has or hasn't been exposed to...and, more importantly, you have no idea what his or her parents are going to be comfortable with. IMO, it's irresponsible to make those assumptions about other people's kids.

If you're going to play with adult themes in your characters, you need to be able to tone down those aspects (or, potentially, even temporarily leave them out entirely) based on who's at your table. If you can't do that, then, IMO, it's probably not a good choice for a character concept in an organized play environment.

*** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka Yiroep

I don't know about the PG-13 rating. I've played a recent scenario that has definitely fallen in the R category.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson aka Sir_Wulf

I was under the impression that the Pathfinder Society strongly discouraged the use of most drugs by its members and absolutely prohibits such use by probationary agents.

Also, keep in mind that the Society needs the support of local rulers for its operations in many areas. The Decemvirate may frown on extracurricular activities that might attact negative publicity in those regions.

The Society has also been known to transport items across national borders without proper documentation or authorization. While they prefer to keep their operations above board, numerous scenarios hint at the extralegal lengths to which Pathfinders have resorted in pursuit of their goals. The Society has good reason to discourage activities that would bring members under suspicion from customs agents and border guards or which might lead officials to paw through crates of fragile relics.

Cheliax *

I understand what you are mean by the above post, but all I can keep thinking is "excellent cover for drug smuggling."

****

KestlerGunner wrote:

A drug dealing player character would be best suited to a home game rather than a good-aligned PG13 shared community campaign. It'd cause more issues than it would fun.

Pathfinder Society is more Hank Schraeder than Walter White.

This is not a good-aligned campaign, nor is the in-game Society good-aligned. Neutral alignments are allowed for PCs and NPCs within the society can be evil. (See First Steps 1, page 15 for an example).

****

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Mike Mistele wrote:
That may or may not be, but if you have a 12-year-old whom you don't otherwise know at your table at a con or game day, you have no idea what that kid actually has or hasn't been exposed to...and, more importantly, you have no idea what his or her parents are going to be comfortable with. IMO, it's irresponsible to make those assumptions about other people's kids.

I'm not a parent and I will not stand as surrogate to some con kid. If parents leave children unsupervised at my tables they are advised that I am not a babysitter, which means that kid is free to go as he or she pleases, and I am not obligated to make things kid-proof.

Also, how are drugs bad when slaughtering sentient creatures by the bushel is okay?

Finally, if a child isn't old enough to deal with new concepts, they shouldn't be left alone at a table full of strange adults! Good lord.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Vixeryz,
My pirate Captain Bartolomae Aguillosa...
- is a member of the thieves guild (organized crime)
- has a ship and caravan (for transportation)
- and a mercantile store (distribution)
...all vanities. I could use a "Heisenberg" to manufacture a quality product :-)

oh, and of course, he's an ethnic Varisian and member of the sczarni faction.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Melbourne aka KestlerGunner

NPCs, not PCs. There's a big difference between Zarta Dralneen/Guaril Karela telling you to steal an egg and then the PC going on to set up an illegal industry that actively wrecks the lives of the customers in order to make some gold.

If the PFS is as morally ambiguous as you say, I eagerly await all those scenario missions in which we set up a drug trafficking cover for the Sczarni, poison a stubborn noble, force out peaceful native inhabitants to get at valuable resources, dominate a young sickly heir, and other fun neutral/evil jobs that are for the benefit of the Society. In my experience, the campaign's not about that at all. We're the ones locking those guys in jail.

You *can* play a prostitute or drug dealer character but don't expect anything further than a wink and a nod at the table. Anything else is best suited to home games.

Consider the growth of PFS - it won't be awkward at all [/sarcasm] if you have to explain to the parent of a new teenage player that you have chosen to play a prostitute or drug dealer. That is, if the younger player ever gets to return to your (public) table. Probably not.

You need to examine why you want to play this character. If you're keen to have a Shaggy lovable stoner source of comic relief, or a Zarta Dralneen fountain of ridiculous innuendo, then by all means, go for it, I'd love to adventure with someone like that. It sounds great.

If you think that you can gain gold/power by dealing/crafting/taking drugs, you're going to be waiting awhile.
As always, IMHO.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Melbourne aka KestlerGunner

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:


Finally, if a child isn't old enough to deal with new concepts, they shouldn't be left alone at a table full of strange adults! Good lord.

It'd be nice if people who played PFS weren't "strange adults" and were actually considerate of others age, upbringing and aversion to adult themes.

And we wonder why pen and paper roleplaying has such a bad rep. Good lord.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Fantasy RPG is a strange animal regarding adult themes. There is a lot of hypocrisy involved in trying to maintain some level of PG-13 rating or whatever you want to call it. While I don't condone flagrant or excessive portrayals of adult themes when there are children at the table, we have to admit there is still a moderate share of violence and unpleasantness in PFS. Faction missions are a good place to look for them. Things like torture (cutting out of a victim's tongue), murder (kill by request, essentially contract killing), etc. To say we need to protect the sensibilities of children is a bit out of the realm of reasonability. Parents should be educated enough about the game to know if it is appropriate before they leave their child in the "custody" of a gaming table.

OTOH, we don't need to go out of our way to make the game as inappropriate as possible. Just this past weekend, I GM'd for a young boy and his father. One of the descriptions in the scenario was of a road flanked by the severed heads of dead human guards impaled on spears. I asked the father if he was okay with the gore. He actually spoke to his son about it and apparently, the text was vanilla compared to Skyrim.

I would say that characters based on adult themes are probably fine, even in PFS, but have some respect for the other players. Don't flaunt the imagery when children are present. And if you must play your character as built to have fun, then excuse yourself from a table with children pre-teen or younger. As a GM, I reserve the right to employ the "don't be a jerk" rule to maintain an appropriate game.

Sczarni ****

Bob Jonquet wrote:


...all vanities. I could use a "Heisenberg" to manufacture a quality product :-)

Whoa man, I could totally make some stuff for you. Some groovy mind expanding stuff, the kinda stuff that'll help us all experience the true world and not the grey prison of conformity our governments force on us with their mind control.

Maybe we can work together and help enlighten the people and help them experience all the wavelengths of reality.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Buckwheat Rainbow wrote:
Blah, Blah, Blah

How much money can I make? I have a payment due to my "boss" :-)

*

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:

OTOH, we don't need to go out of our way to make the game as inappropriate as possible. Just this past weekend, I GM'd for a young boy and his father. One of the descriptions in the scenario was of a road flanked by the severed heads of dead human guards impaled on spears. I asked the father if he was okay with the gore. He actually spoke to his son about it and apparently, the text was vanilla compared to Skyrim.

I would say that characters based on adult themes are probably fine, even in PFS, but have some respect for the other players. Don't flaunt the imagery when children are present. And if you must play your character as built to have fun, then excuse yourself from a table with children pre-teen or younger. As a GM, I reserve the right to employ the "don't be a jerk" rule to maintain an appropriate game.

Said better than I could, Bob, thank you.

IMNSHO, if you GM for PFS (or play a particularly "adult-themed" character), and you don't feel that you can (or should) be following this sort of advice, then you really shouldn't be running tables with kids whom you don't personally know. Insisting that you know what's best, or being willfully insensitive to the issue, does nothing positive for growing the game, and makes you look even *less* mature.

Cheliax

Mike Mistele wrote:
Nimon wrote:


Personally I have no problem with it, and if you were at my table I would allow it. The idea that we need to keep potential "teens" from this concept is beyond ludicrous. If your teens are playing this game, they already have a pretty good idea of the potential evils in the world. If they have access to the internet, well they have probably lost any innocence you believe them to have. If they live in America they probably have had some degree of drug training either in the D.A.R.E program or health class.

That may or may not be, but if you have a 12-year-old whom you don't otherwise know at your table at a con or game day, you have no idea what that kid actually has or hasn't been exposed to...and, more importantly, you have no idea what his or her parents are going to be comfortable with. IMO, it's irresponsible to make those assumptions about other people's kids.

If you're going to play with adult themes in your characters, you need to be able to tone down those aspects (or, potentially, even temporarily leave them out entirely) based on who's at your table. If you can't do that, then, IMO, it's probably not a good choice for a character concept in an organized play environment.

Adult themes? Like what killing monsters? So let me get this straight the parents in this hypothetical are A O.K with the concepts of murder mayhem, cult, theft, and lethal traps. But the idea of substances that get you high is just too much for them? I want to meet these nut jobs in person.

Andoran ****

This is one of those things that people just need to use common sense with.

If you're at the table with kids and/or people that are sensative about the subject, don't bring that aspect of your character to the spotlight. I have one character that is a prostitute as a dayjob and another that is a Sczarni hitman. Some people are offended by one, some people by the other, and some neither.

Just be mindful of your audience/fellow players and be reasonable.

Shadow Lodge **

James MacKenzie wrote:

I was under the impression that the Pathfinder Society strongly discouraged the use of most drugs by its members and absolutely prohibits such use by probationary agents.

There's a god of alchohol, without whose support there wouldn't be an andoran faction. I don't think anyone is required to go dry or sober, so as long as someone is functioning i can't see them objecting to a pathfinders off hour proclivities.

Sczarni ***

To the OP,

There is no crafting involved most likely, you just buy them out, however you still probably need some Fame to buy them. Most likely you need 4 Fame which is 500gp limit.

This is just a wild guess.

You might wanna check additional resources.

Grand Lodge ****

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:

I'm not a parent and I will not stand as surrogate to some con kid. If parents leave children unsupervised at my tables they are advised that I am not a babysitter, which means that kid is free to go as he or she pleases, and I am not obligated to make things kid-proof.

Also, how are drugs bad when slaughtering sentient creatures by the bushel is okay?

Finally, if a child isn't old enough to deal with new concepts, they shouldn't be left alone at a table full of strange adults! Good lord.

As the parent of child who plays PFS I couldn't agree more.

If you have concerns about what a child is hearing at a PFS table talk to the parent not the messageboard.

Shadow Lodge

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Nimon wrote:
Adult themes? Like what killing monsters? So let me get this straight the parents in this hypothetical are A O.K with the concepts of murder mayhem, cult, theft, and lethal traps. But the idea of substances that get you high is just too much for them? I want to meet these nut jobs in person.

Good Sir, I would like to introduce you to the American people. American people, meet Nimon.

Take a look at American TV programming: violence, deadly traps, and theft have all been a part of children's themes. Drugs (and to some extent, sex) are only shown in a bad context or looked at in a negative light, and are generally not included in children's themes.

Want violence? He-Man, Bugs Bunny, Transformers, most Disney films, and thousands of other cartoons.

Want deadly traps? Goonies (a childhood favorite of mine) or Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark was originally PG, now it's PG-13).

Want theft? Aladdin

What popular cartoons or other children shows emphasis drug abuse or sex (specifically prostitution) in a positive light? This is how American culture is. We allow violence, but we abhor sex and drugs. It might be hypocritical (and that's an entirely different subject), but it is a very common belief. In America, to believe otherwise is often considered the "nut job" position.

Heck, even GI Joe had an episode where they teamed up with Cobra to fight a common enemy: drug use. Things might be different with today's cartoons (I haven't looked into the issue), but most parents with young gamers grew up with 70s and 80s cartoons, and these were the lessons we were taught. Right or wrong, this is the American culture. Violence is ok, drug use and sex are not.

Cheliax

bookrat wrote:
Nimon wrote:
Adult themes? Like what killing monsters? So let me get this straight the parents in this hypothetical are A O.K with the concepts of murder mayhem, cult, theft, and lethal traps. But the idea of substances that get you high is just too much for them? I want to meet these nut jobs in person.

Good Sir, I would like to introduce you to the American people. American people, meet Nimon.

Take a look at American TV programming: violence, deadly traps, and theft have all been a part of children's themes. Drugs (and to some extent, sex) are only shown in a bad context or looked at in a negative light, and are generally not included in children's themes.

Want violence? He-Man, Bugs Bunny, Transformers, most Disney films, and thousands of other cartoons.

Want deadly traps? Goonies (a childhood favorite of mine) or Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark was originally PG, now it's PG-13).

Want theft? Aladdin

What popular cartoons or other children shows emphasis drug abuse or sex (specifically prostitution) in a positive light? This is how American culture is. We allow violence, but we abhor sex and drugs. It might be hypocritical (and that's an entirely different subject), but it is a very common belief. In America, to believe otherwise is often considered the "nut job" position.

Heck, even GI Joe had an episode where they teamed up with Cobra to fight a common enemy: drug use. Things might be different with today's cartoons (I haven't looked into the issue), but most parents with young gamers grew up with 70s and 80s cartoons, and these were the lessons we were taught. Right or wrong, this is the American culture. Violence is ok, drug use and sex are not.

OK I didnt think we were going to have to go this far, but if we are going to debate lets define terms. A drug is any substance used in medicine. Thats right, those herbal healers are all drug pushers and their paitents are junkies.

You want drugs? Super Mario Brothers- Eat Mushroom, Makes Me Big and Strong! Go Mario!

This poor perception of drugs in American Culture you point out is realativly new, and only on drugs deemed "illegal". America is perfectly fine having commercials for drugs they own the supply too on day time T.V.

Want to protect your children from the underworld? Edjucate them. If you do this my 4 hours of pretending to be addicted to(Insert Fictional Substance) isnt going to turn them into crack heads.

Shadow Lodge

Nimon wrote:

OK I didnt think we were going to have to go this far, but if we are going to debate lets define terms. A drug is any substance used in medicine. Thats right, those herbal healers are all drug pushers and their paitents are junkies.

You want drugs? Super Mario Brothers- Eat Mushroom, Makes Me Big and Strong! Go Mario!

This poor perception of drugs in American Culture you point out is realativly new, and only on drugs deemed "illegal". America is perfectly fine having commercials for drugs they own the supply too on day time T.V.

Want to protect your children from the underworld? Edjucate them. If you do this my 4 hours of pretending to be addicted to(Insert Fictional Substance) isnt going to turn them into crack heads.

First off (and there's no way for you to have known this), I'm a toxicologist by trade. I study and research drug effects as a career, so I am plenty knowledgeable on the topic. Regardless, I don't disagree with you. At all. I believe you are entirely correct to say that the most correct action to protect children is education. In fact, a portion of my work is teaching.

What I was commenting on was your shock that there are people who exist that believe violence is ok while drug use is not - and your follow up of calling them nut jobs. The belief is extremely common. If you live in America, I'd be more shocked if you hadn't yet met someone like that. And while I agree with you about education, there is a decently sized portion of our society that believes sheltering - not education - is the best way to protect children. It may be an incorrect belief, but it is nonetheless common. This can be particularly exemplified by the FCC's reaction to the "wardrobe malfunction" at the Superbowl a few years back. Football is a violent sport, but many people were very upset that a woman's breast was shown during halftime. The belief is so common in America that those who think sex and drug use is ok while violence is bad are often believed to be the odd ones.

Heck (and not to bring politics into the discussion), most Republicans believe (premarital) sex and (illegal) drugs are bad, but fully support military action. It's a perfect example of your "nut job" parent. You might claim that half of America are nut jobs for holding that belief (and you might be right), but those same people believe that you and I are the nut jobs for disagreeing.

Shadow Lodge **

Look, you have to tailor the character and your role play to the people at the table. If there's a 12 year old at the table, the dm is going to have to ad lib a few of the paracountesses lines.

If you're a pesh dealer and your entire group is (ostensibly) fully grown adults by all means make your entrance into the meeting being carried on a palanquin by 4 halfling slaves that you steer by dangling a brick of pesh on a stick in front of them. If you have a minor at the table keep it on the downlow and when the DM asks your dayjob just tell him "retail" with air quotes.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Regardless of your thoughts on the hypocrisy of gaming, in the end, PFS definitely leans more towards good than evil. Sure, there are a few exceptions usually within faction missions, but the theme of the game is still heroic in nature. We don't condone murder, per say, but justified killing, usually in service of a "greater good" does happen. We don't encourage illicit drug use or dealing, we don't encourage overt sexual encounters, and we don't encourage wanton destruction or unnecessary physical violence. I know of a number of parents who's children play, but are only permitted to play good characters with, mostly, good intentions. Are they BadWrongFun? I don't think so, and it doesn't hurt anyone to have a modicum of compassion for a youthful player and show some self-restraint. We are suppose to be adults after all. If you are unwilling or unable to do that, then I suspect you will be unwelcome at a lot of gaming tables. YMMV.

Cheliax

I was a combat medic now EMT going to school for nursing. So that is my medical background.

As far as talioring your play for the table. Most people with addiction are subtle. You can pop a substance in your mouth and chew it or what not and it should not effect anyone at the table unless They make an issue of it.

Besides drugs are already a very potent part of fantasy gaming. Where is one of the first places you go when you get to town? The Tavern. Yes, Alcohol is a drug. So I can role play being obnoxiously drunk just not high? Come on.

Shadow Lodge

Nimon wrote:
Besides drugs are already a very potent part of fantasy gaming. Where is one of the first places you go when you get to town? The Tavern. Yes, Alcohol is a drug. So I can role play being obnoxiously drunk just not high? Come on.

Are there any PFS scenarios that take place in a tavern? Do other PFS tables roleplay getting drunk in a tavern, either before or after the adventure? I have yet to see it.

Additionally, alcohol is a generally acceptable drug to consume in our society, so when people see a person drinking, it's not a bigscarything. On the other hand, our country demonizes illicit substances.

Nimon wrote:
Yes, Alcohol is a drug.

I know you're hard set on the clinical definition of a drug, but we're not talking about was is technically defined as a drug, we're talking about the common perceptions. The average person doesn't think in terms of medication = drug, or alcohol = drug, or even supplement = drug. In fact, I have met people who get confused when I use the term "drug" to refer to pharmaceuticals (or what they call "medicine"), even though they are technically the same thing. I have taught Intro to Forensic Science courses, and have had to shred away student's perceptions that alcohol and medications are not drugs. We're talking about public perception here, not scientific and clinical terminology.

More importantly, the OP was talking about drug trafficking and being a drug dealer, terms which are almost exclusively reserved for illicit substances.

I am really confused how you do not understand this within our own culture. Especially if you were in the military (which demonizes drug use while accepting and sometimes encouraging alcohol; I know, I was also in the military and have worked with about 10 other militaries around the world while on NATO missions), have obtained an EMT certification (which I have done as well, so I know what is taught in that course), and are now in school for nursing. The post to which I responded had a request to talk to these "nut job parents" face to face; do you really expect the average person to have as detailed as an education on this specific subject as you and I?

I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong. I don't think you are wrong. What I'm trying to show you is that there is a large portion of our society that believes you and I are wrong (which you seemingly are very surprised to find out). Pathfinder Society is not the place to try to convince them that illicit drugs are ok, especially if it is a younger person (with or without their parent present). As mature adults, we must tailor our attitude to the crowd around us, not force the crowd to tailor to us. If you were at my home table, I would not have a problem with it (in fact, I've designed in game drugs and drug rules for my players before), but at a PFS table we need to respect the fact that other people have different opinions and that a PFS table is not the place to bring up controversial or sensitive subjects (such as the acceptability of illicit drug use).

If one absolutely must have this for their character, then just make it a craft or profession check for their Day Job and leave it at that. That way, the player has his/her drug themed character, and it doesn't effect anyone else's game play.

*

bookrat wrote:
Nimon wrote:
Besides drugs are already a very potent part of fantasy gaming. Where is one of the first places you go when you get to town? The Tavern. Yes, Alcohol is a drug. So I can role play being obnoxiously drunk just not high? Come on.
Are there any PFS scenarios that take place in a tavern? Do other PFS tables roleplay getting drunk in a tavern, either before or after the adventure? I have yet to see it.

Off the top of my head,

a couple scenarios with bars and where the bar is in the scenario, so don't spoil these if you don't want to know:

2-15 Shades of Ice Part 1: There's a barroom BRAWL going on in the middle of the scenario. When I played it there also happened to be a young kid at the table... he died 'cause he pulled a sword in a "friendly" fight, so the NPCs pulled table legs.

1-29 The Devil We Know starts with an inn... on "FLIP MAT WATERFRONT TAVERN" Think about that--there's a published map for a TAVERN. Yes, there are scenarios that take place in bars. Speaking of that flip mat:

3-?? First Steps Part III the last fight is in a bar (using the same flip mat).


That's just a few examples.

Now, I wouldn't say you should act as a shady drug-dealer at the table with a kid there; be age-appropriate. I have a halfling summoner with a pink-elephant eidolon; when there's kids at the table "Nah, man. I just blow Bubbles [the name of the eidolon] from my pipe."

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Seeker of Secrets

Seeker p6 wrote:


,some of the basic guidelines include no fighting, no leaving the Grand Lodge, no entering forbidden areas (a constant temptation given the nature of the compound), no clothing other than the initiate grey, no shirking, no chemical addictions

This is in Rules and Discipline and once was core assumption.

As such I can't see the Decemvirate or Venture Captains look kindly on someone using and especially selling drugs.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson aka Sir_Wulf

Seeker p6 wrote:
... some of the basic guidelines include no fighting, no leaving the Grand Lodge, no entering forbidden areas (a constant temptation given the nature of the compound), no clothing other than the initiate grey, no shirking, no chemical addictions...
Thod wrote:
As such I can't see the Decemvirate or Venture-Captains looking kindly on someone using, and especially selling, drugs.

That's the Society rule I was thinking of earlier.

Just like the characters in Tolkien consider 'pipeweed' a harmless recreation instead of a health-threatening addiction, folk in many parts of Golarion seem little concerned by regular alcohol use. "Flayleaf" is commonly smoked or added to foods. Other substances are commonplace.

On the other hand, some other substances are banned or otherwise regulated. Pesh dealers furtively offer their wares when the watch isn't looking. Customs officials search vessels for contraband. There are clearly some laws against these things. Alternatively, some substances are likely associated with particular cultures or lands, regarded as "foreign" and dangerous by those of other realms.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson aka Sir_Wulf

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mike Mistele wrote:
That may or may not be, but if you have a 12-year-old whom you don't otherwise know at your table at a con or game day, you have no idea what that kid actually has or hasn't been exposed to...and, more importantly, you have no idea what his or her parents are going to be comfortable with. IMO, it's irresponsible to make those assumptions about other people's kids.
Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
I'm not a parent and I will not stand as surrogate to some con kid. If parents leave children unsupervised at my tables they are advised that I am not a babysitter, which means that kid is free to go as he or she pleases, and I am not obligated to make things kid-proof.

While I was not overly squeamish about the plot elements that my children encountered, and have no desire to make others responsible for their welfare, I have encountered a few moments of "what the ...." at gaming events.

I have had event organizers muster me at a different table from my 11-year old daughter, despite my request to be at the same table. (My kids are now old enough that this isn't a major issue.) I have overheard people whose language and choice of conversational subject matter forced me to offer awkward explanations after the game.

I don't want to stop anyone from enjoying their game in their own way, but I'd ask others to exercise consideration and tact when gaming in a public setting. This doesn't just apply to kids: There are plenty of adults who may be uncomfortable around strong language, excessively-described gore, or graphic sexual comments.


Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
Mike Mistele wrote:
That may or may not be, but if you have a 12-year-old whom you don't otherwise know at your table at a con or game day, you have no idea what that kid actually has or hasn't been exposed to...and, more importantly, you have no idea what his or her parents are going to be comfortable with. IMO, it's irresponsible to make those assumptions about other people's kids.

I'm not a parent and I will not stand as surrogate to some con kid. If parents leave children unsupervised at my tables they are advised that I am not a babysitter, which means that kid is free to go as he or she pleases, and I am not obligated to make things kid-proof.

Also, how are drugs bad when slaughtering sentient creatures by the bushel is okay?

Finally, if a child isn't old enough to deal with new concepts, they shouldn't be left alone at a table full of strange adults! Good lord.

I have to second ( or third ) this...

First off... I'd have to question the kind of parent you are, if you are leaving a 12 yr old in a room FULL of strangers, with potentially "adult" content (that's been described in this thread), only to go indulge yourself and your gaming habits.

We are gamers, not the TV at your home, and not meant to babysit your children.

While I do agree that some things probably should not be "gamed" at a table with young kids, you can't really dump 100% responsibility of anything on a complete stranger for your kids.

*

For the PG13 standard, I pulled this from the MPAA website: Any drug use will initially require at least a PG-13 rating.

My personal opinion is that the buying and selling of contraband or somewhat discreet use would be still within the PG13 rule of thumb. I think it would be quite hard for a game to turn into repeated and extended drug use rituals and people undergoing massive hallucinations or overdoses. It would take some major conspiracy on the part of the DM and the player to push it outside of what I would think of as PG13.

Perhaps I will feel different about this in a few months when I have a child, but I don't think it is someone else's responsibility to protect my kid from information. I am guessing that whatever is said at a game table that might spark questions is going to be a lot more mundane and less of a blind-side than what happens around their peers or on the internet.

Cheliax

The point is these are fictional substances. They may or may not be illegal in their cultures.Going by our own history many substances that are illegal today would have been perfectly legal 100 years ago never mind the middle ages.

American Culture is very diverse, and my military service has shown me that more than anything bookrat. I find it hard to believe you think your definition of it is the only one that exsists.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

It just astounds me that there seems to be only two camps here. Those who feel they have no responsibility whatsoever to have some decorum when there are younger players at their table and are offended by those who suggest it. And those who feel they are not responsible for placing their children at a table where adult content may arise. I'm not pointing at anyone specific, but that's what this topic "feels" like. There is nothing wrong with demonstrating a bit of self-control while still embracing some of the more risque topics that arise in fantasy role-playing. All I'm saying is that if you are a member of either group I described, then perhaps PFS is not a good environment for you and I hope you avoid my table.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

*

Children playing PFS is great and all, but I am likely to walk from a table where I am placed with a young child. Not because I dislike kids, but because since there is no replay in PFS, I on't want to risk having my single experience playing a scenario potentially bawlderized
"for the children".

Now the above would not always happen, of course, but I have heard DMs advocating it in various threads here. A good organizer would either speak to the relevant parent (at a small game day) or have a table of WBG or something where they kan place kids(at a larger event) to prevent any such problems.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Saint Caleth wrote:
Children playing PFS is great and all, but I am likely to walk from a table where I am placed with a young child. Not because I dislike kids, but because since there is no replay in PFS, I on't want to risk having my single experience playing a scenario potentially bawlderized "for the children".

IMO, that is a reasonable response and I wish there was more of it. Too often I see players at odds with each other or the GM over play styles. It always astounds me when two players who are familiar with each other and have differing styles allow themselves to be seated together.

Shadow Lodge **

Bob Jonquet wrote:
, we don't encourage overt sexual encounters, and we don't encourage wanton destruction or unnecessary physical violence.

see full terms and conditions on "Necessary". May not apply to faction missions, to non humans, or the pharasmally impaired. May not apply on full moons, Abadar Holidays, weekends or alternate Tuesdays. Consult your alchemist if conditions persist for more than 4 hours.

Shadow Lodge **

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
Children playing PFS is great and all, but I am likely to walk from a table where I am placed with a young child. Not because I dislike kids, but because since there is no replay in PFS, I on't want to risk having my single experience playing a scenario potentially bawlderized "for the children".
IMO, that is a reasonable response and I wish there was more of it. Too often I see players at odds with each other or the GM over play styles. It always astounds me when two players who are familiar with each other and have differing styles allow themselves to be seated together.

Well, if you're looking for a game

-In your area/timeslot
-In your level range
-That you haven't played before
-With people you get along with...

you can really only change that last factor. Even a bad slot of gaming is usually better than nothing.

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