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PaizoCon 2014!

Alchemists, drug trafficking, and organized play


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Bob Jonquet wrote:

It just astounds me that there seems to be only two camps here. Those who feel they have no responsibility whatsoever to have some decorum when there are younger players at their table and are offended by those who suggest it. And those who feel they are not responsible for placing their children at a table where adult content may arise. I'm not pointing at anyone specific, but that's what this topic "feels" like. There is nothing wrong with demonstrating a bit of self-control while still embracing some of the more risque topics that arise in fantasy role-playing. All I'm saying is that if you are a member of either group I described, then perhaps PFS is not a good environment for you and I hope you avoid my table.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

While I always choose to adjust my tone in game and out of game based on present company (for reasons other than just age), I think that if the issue arises where there is the conflict in desired content, the onus is on the parent to guide their children and not strangers.

People have a lot of ideas about what should or should not be told to kids and I disagree with a lot of the mainstream ideas. It is up to me to teach my child how to think through situations in life, not to force strangers to censor their own ideas. Imagine if I were to tell strangers not to talk about politics or their religion if my kid is around in a public place, I doubt I would have a lot of people rushing to my defense.

Grand Lodge **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
James MacKenzie wrote:
I have had event organizers muster me at a different table from my 11-year old daughter, despite my request to be at the same table.

I am astonished that an organiser would behave in this way. Why would anyone do this against the wishes of a parent?

Given the number of people in this thread who'd have a problem gaming with an unsupervised child, this behaviour seems even more idiotic.

Silver Crusade **

When gaming with children, I do adjust my tone. They are a player, just as much as anyone else, and I try to tailor my actions to the collective audience. I also alter what I might be talking about, since I don't know what topics their parents might have an issue with. I would rather keep a player than talk about a random topic for 4 hours. It`s all about basic respect to me.

Grand Lodge *****

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

As a father of two children - likely the two youngest participants at PaizoCon UK this year - I first would like to thank organizers and players at the convention we have been at - you always have made us feel welcome at the table and I have never seen issues. And I think my two 'goblins' are now a well established part of the community and I'm grateful for it.

But some of the discussions here disturb me. There might be other examples - but so far I can only say that other parents seem to spend a lot of thought about having their children to participate or not. They are very conscious to ensure other players are not 'disturbed' by their children style of play.

What I haven't heard here yet is the view from a children's point of view. After all they are often hold to much more scrutiny as we would expect from an adult.

At the last mixed game with adults and children at the table I had to tell off an adult whom I know dislikes to play with children because of his bad behaviour. It was no violence, it wasn't sex - it was just childish behaviour. Childish behaviour that I knew if copied by any of the kids at the same table would him cause to walk immidiately from the table or at least cause complaints.

We expect and force children to behave at the table and be at their best for the privilege to share a game with adults. And if in doubt - we tend to pull them - aka they are the first not allowed a seat at the table.

I thought I share this different viewpoint. The children don't have a voice here to tell their story. But I heard it often enough now the one recurring complain - why aren't we allowed to play.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Sitri wrote:
People have a lot of ideas about what should or should not be told to kids and I disagree with a lot of the mainstream ideas. It is up to me to teach my child how to think through situations in life, not to force strangers to censor their own ideas. Imagine if I were to tell strangers not to talk about politics or their religion if my kid is around in a public place, I doubt I would have a lot of people rushing to my defense.

That may be true, but the typical PFS game is accommodating to children. So if I, as a parent, seat my child at a PFS gaming table, I have a general idea of what content will arise. I may have a conversation with the GM prior to the game regarding the scenario. If there is content I do not want my child exposed to, then I will pull him/her from the table. But I do not have much control over the actions of the players. I have an expectation they will act (1) like adults, and (2) in a manner typical for PFS. There are plenty of opportunities to play and embelish adult themes. I've done it myself. But there is no reason why we, as a community, cannot have a level of compromise so that both sides can still have their fun. The in-game tenets of the society apply to us as real-life players as well, especially the last one.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Cheliax

I love how people think their children are little angels. Yesterday we had this 12 year old at the table playing a Gunslinger threaten to burn down an orphanage. Oh, but lets not talk about narcotics around them.

Silver Crusade **

Nimon wrote:


I love how people think their children are little angels. Yesterday we had this 12 year old at the table playing a Gunslinger threaten to burn down an orphanage. Oh, but lets not talk about narcotics around them.

Doesn't matter to me. My need to talk about narcotics does not outdo their need to play the game. If it does, there is not one child at the table, but two...

*

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is the parallel between the game and drugs for real life effect. Many people play this game as a form of escapism; indulgence in a fantasy world where they can forget about the real world. In that aspect, this game is not much different than a bar, the difference being that the drug in question is dispensed by the brain and therefore much more subtle and varied.

I don't say anything out of line for children because my mind automatically filters based on my company, a trait that can sometimes be quite taxing when around larger groups of people. But I defend those that don't want to curb their behavior for children because many of my friends, those that seem to get the most satisfaction out of the game, immerse themselves in the character and seem to lose themselves for a few hours a week. Asking them to be cognizant of the company and tone down their role play seems to me like asking people at a bar not to order shots when children come in.

Silver Crusade **

Sitri wrote:

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is the parallel between the game and drugs for real life effect. Many people play this game as a form of escapism; indulgence in a fantasy world where they can forget about the real world. In that aspect, this game is not much different than a bar, the difference being that the drug in question is dispensed by the brain and therefore much more subtle and varied.

I don't say anything out of line for children because my mind automatically filters based on my company, a trait that can sometimes be quite taxing when around larger groups of people. But I defend those that don't want to curb their behavior for children because many of my friends, those that seem to get the most satisfaction out of the game, immerse themselves in the character and seem to lose themselves for a few hours a week. Asking them to be cognizant of the company and tone down their role play seems to me like asking people at a bar not to order shots when children come in.

At a bar, I believe kids can't come in...

*

Alexander_Damocles wrote:


At a bar, I believe kids can't come in...

Simply not true. Most any bar that also serves actual meals allows children and even those that don't serve food often allow children when adults are with them before certain hours.

Silver Crusade **

Sitri wrote:
Alexander_Damocles wrote:


At a bar, I believe kids can't come in...

Simply not true. Most any bar that also serves actual meals allows children and even those that don't serve food often allow children when adults are with them before certain hours.

Varies by state. In CA, a minor may not enter a bar unless acting as part of a sting operation as requested by police.

In the case of a restaurant with attached, they may be inside the restaurant but not seated in the bar section.

/endthreadjack

Osirion

OMG! I created a monster. Lol! You guys have completely derailed this thread. This wasnt supposed to be a philosophical debate about sex, drugs, and violence in games and their effects on impressionable youth. This isnt about kids at the gaming table or anything to do with how their parents raise them.

This thread is about whether or not drugs can be available as buyable goods. Particularly, if they appear in a scenario. I understand that you cannot buy them via faction or between scenarios because the Pathfinder society by-laws (as per seeker of secrets) evidently forbids it. However, if you do it on the down-low and dont let your superiors find out... Surely you can buy it during a scenario if its written in the module that you come across it?

Shadow Lodge

Vixeryz wrote:
OMG! I created a monster. Lol! You guys have completely derailed this thread. This wasnt supposed to be a philosophical debate about sex, drugs, and violence in games and their effects on impressionable youth. This isnt about kids at the gaming table or anything to do with how their parents raise them.

But.. we were having fun!

Vixeryx wrote:
This thread is about whether or not drugs can be available as buyable goods. Particularly, if they appear in a scenario. I understand that you cannot buy them via faction or between scenarios because the Pathfinder society by-laws (as per seeker of secrets) evidently forbids it. However, if you do it on the down-low and dont let your superiors find out... Surely you can buy it during a scenario if its written in the module that you come across it?

Only if it's available on the official Pathfinder Society Scenario summary page at the end of the adventure, or if it is in the common items list available for purchase in any city.

Look at the free version of "Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play" on pages 24-25. It lists all items your character will have the option to purchase.

Here's the specific quote regarding items not from the Core Rule Book.

PFS Guide wrote:
All mundane (completely nonmagical) weapons, armor, equipment, and alchemical gear found in any other source that is legal for play are considered always available.

Other books are only legal for your character if you either possess a physical copy or have a pdf copy with your name watermarked on it. And remember to check the Additional Sources for the specific book to make sure it is legal for play.

In other words, if you can find a book that has a specific drug in it (and it's considered non-magical by the rules), and you can get a legal copy of the book to an official PFS table, then yes, your character can purchase it. The only other way is if it is listed as a purchasable item on the Scenario sheet you receive at the end of the adventure. Anything else, and the answer is no.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson aka Sir_Wulf

Paz wrote:
I am astonished that an organiser would behave in this way. Why would anyone do this against the wishes of a parent?

My comment made the situation sound worse than it really was: Those particular game days had several walk-ins, and some players who had signed up but didn't make it. This forced the organizer into some last-minute table juggling. I was mustered at a different table, but wasn't very far from my daughter. The organizer also knew that my daughter's GM was himself a parent of teens, who didn't mind kids at his table.

My point was that circumstances don't always allow parents to closely monitor their children. Hopefully, they won't need parental redirection during a game session, but all kids need some degree of attention.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber
Sitri wrote:
Many people play this game as a form of escapism; indulgence in a fantasy world where they can forget about the real world.

Sitri - it is very interesting for you to mention this here. It was exactly this reason that I allowed a young girl at my table despite knowing that this could cause a possible conflict with one of the other players.

I don't want to go into details because this is a private matter. But the decision wasn't that much to allow her at the table but to allow her father at the table. He currently goes through a very bad stretch in his live. He was in need of the company of the table and to have a save environment to escape from other issues.

I had already cancelled the evening game of the same week (due to lack of players and to aboid GM burn out for myself) and the weekend afternoon slot was his only chance to play. But it was his weekend to look after his daughter (who was very keen to play as she had heard stories from her father and my own daughter).

The other player still got two more slots without her (or her father) on Saturday night and Sunday.

Sometimes there are also fathers and mothers who like to escape reality and indulge in a fantasy world as well.

Sometimes we manage to organize child care well ahead and with non neglectable cost. I had my mother come over from Germany to the UK for a week to enable myself and my wife to go to a convention 1 1/2 years ago. Sometimes one partner - most often the mother - stays at home. My wife missed last years PaizoCon UK for exactly this reason. And she left before the last slot this year with the kids - leaving me alone to GM for others. And I missed the special at Conception this year as I looked after the kids in the evening.

As a responsible parent you try to be considerate and not to force yourself or your family on others. But not everything is under your control if you go to a convention - even if you know the organizer and most of the GMs.

And sometimes a compromise is the only solution.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber
Vixeryz wrote:

OMG! I created a monster. Lol! You guys have completely derailed this thread. This wasnt supposed to be a philosophical debate about sex, drugs, and violence in games and their effects on impressionable youth. This isnt about kids at the gaming table or anything to do with how their parents raise them.

This thread is about whether or not drugs can be available as buyable goods. Particularly, if they appear in a scenario. I understand that you cannot buy them via faction or between scenarios because the Pathfinder society by-laws (as per seeker of secrets) evidently forbids it. However, if you do it on the down-low and dont let your superiors find out... Surely you can buy it during a scenario if its written in the module that you come across it?

Sorry for being part of the derail. I can only say that I was also the one bringing up Seeker of Secrets.

So lets try to go back to the orignal question:

I regard a character who claims as background to deal in drugs or trying to make money as problematic in PFS.

a) He won't be able to make any money as PFS guards quite well that you can't make any additional money apart of dayjob rolls or the money on the chronicle sheet. If there is a RAW legal loophole then expect it to be closed via FAQ if it gets wildly adopted.

Now lets look at someone buying drugs (and using them)

b) There is the issue with Seeker of Sekrets and what is expected from a novice. This is an indication that it is frowned upon. On the other hand I would guess a VC on Golarion will be less stringent if you chew or eat some substance to boost yourself for a mission.

So just do it discreetly - not because there are kids at the table - but rather because a PFS drug addict could be seen as flaunting what is expected from a Pathfinder operative in Seeker of Secrets. Don't run the risk of a GM asking for atonement or other remedy.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thod; your two kids are great company, and really get into their character, and the theme of the Pathfinders, far more than many of the adults I've met. I would happily game with them at any table (player or GM).

As to the original question; if drugs are found as loot during a scenario, hasn't their street value already been accounted for, in the scenario's GP award?
The PC's are assumed to either make a show of handing over the dirty goods for an official reward (look how we Pathfinders are good citizens!), or have handed them over to the shady elements of the Society (like the Sczarni) to sell.
Either way, you get paid what they're worth.

Many GMs allow a similar deal for unholy items, to be sold to good temples with the intent of melting them down, or keeping them out of the hands of the wrong people.

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