Do bane weapon special abilities stack?


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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

exactly, Malachi. A weapon can't be Bane against a creature more then once. Same sources don't stack, and never have.

The +7 argument is how it would work if you let them stack. I'm not advising that you do so!

Actually, I'd just advise you take the Evil Bane power off the Sunsword if you want a broad Bane...+2/+2 against all Evil creatures. It doesn't punch DR like Holy does...unless you stick it on a +3 sword, of course.

==Aelryinth


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The +2d6 damage is Bane damage! It no more stacks than multiple fire enchantments would.

In 3.5 there was no rule against the same enchantment being placed more than once on the same weapon; this was introduced in Pathfinder.

So why weren't we swamped by +1 flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming longswords, doing 1d8+1+9d6 fire? Because enchantments/spells/effects don't stack with themselves, then or now!

Right fire doesn't stack with fire.

But you can stack fire, ice, electricity.

If we are allowing bane to be different property by each type: Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons),then the weapon is not doing Bane damage it is doing bane (cold), Bane (Fire) ect... Not the same effect so the damage would stack.

Silver Crusade

Nevan Oaks wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The +2d6 damage is Bane damage! It no more stacks than multiple fire enchantments would.

In 3.5 there was no rule against the same enchantment being placed more than once on the same weapon; this was introduced in Pathfinder.

So why weren't we swamped by +1 flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming longswords, doing 1d8+1+9d6 fire? Because enchantments/spells/effects don't stack with themselves, then or now!

Right fire doesn't stack with fire.

But you can stack fire, ice, electricity.

If we are allowing bane to be different property by each type: Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons),then the weapon is not doing Bane damage it is doing bane (cold), Bane (Fire) ect... Not the same effect so the damage would stack.

This is where we disagree.

CRB wrote:
'A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.'

The 'different properties' here are the designated foes, not the Bane damage itself!


Damage from a bane weapon is untyped. Untyped bonuses stack.

Bane(human) arrow from a bane(elf) longbow is +3/+3 +4d6 vs a half-elf

Enhancement overlaps but damage doesn't.

Putting two banes on the same weapon?
Ask your DM, as it can be read either way, malachi or nevan's.


Aelryinth you state that a Sword +1, Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons), would be +7. So your sword has an actual bonus of +1 plus bane types.

Bane states that: Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.

The actual bonus of your sword is +1. So the bane bonus can only be added to this number. I you attack and evil outsider you get to add +2 for a total of +3.

If with this same weapon you attack a chaotic evil outsider the actual bonus is still +1 to this you add +2 for chaos giving a total of +3, then you add the +2 for evil, But this bonus is still only added to the ACTUAL enchantment which is still only +1 (not +3), so the weapon can’t go above +3.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Nevan Oaks wrote:

Aelryinth you state that a Sword +1, Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons), would be +7. So your sword has an actual bonus of +1 plus bane types.

Bane states that: Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.

The actual bonus of your sword is +1. So the bane bonus can only be added to this number. I you attack and evil outsider you get to add +2 for a total of +3.

If with this same weapon you attack a chaotic evil outsider the actual bonus is still +1 to this you add +2 for chaos giving a total of +3, then you add the +2 for evil, But this bonus is still only added to the ACTUAL enchantment which is still only +1 (not +3), so the weapon can’t go above +3.

Does this mean bane doesn't stack with furious? Barbarians will rage about that ;P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Nevan Oaks wrote:

Aelryinth you state that a Sword +1, Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons), would be +7. So your sword has an actual bonus of +1 plus bane types.

Bane states that: Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.

The actual bonus of your sword is +1. So the bane bonus can only be added to this number. I you attack and evil outsider you get to add +2 for a total of +3.

If with this same weapon you attack a chaotic evil outsider the actual bonus is still +1 to this you add +2 for chaos giving a total of +3, then you add the +2 for evil, But this bonus is still only added to the ACTUAL enchantment which is still only +1 (not +3), so the weapon can’t go above +3.

I'm saying that's how it works if you are arguing that Bane stacks. Bane does not stack with itself. Bane is bane. It does NOT stack to +7 unless you make it a house rule.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

nidho wrote:

Damage from a bane weapon is untyped. Untyped bonuses stack.

Bane(human) arrow from a bane(elf) longbow is +3/+3 +4d6 vs a half-elf

Enhancement overlaps but damage doesn't.

Putting two banes on the same weapon?
Ask your DM, as it can be read either way, malachi or nevan's.

No.

The weapon is +2 and +2d6. Bane does not stack with itself. Same sources have never stacked with themselves. Bane is one source. The fact that source can have different targets does not make Bane multiple sources...bane is still bane, the same way fire is still fire. The fact the damage is typeless is not a factor. That Bane does no more damage then if it was shooting a +1 Flaming arrow from a +1 Flaming bow. They don't stack.

Think of Bane the same way you would Flaming, or Holy. Holy Holy Holy Holy does not stack. Bane bane bane bane does not stack. All it does is expand the direction of Bane, they are not seperate sources. They are cumulative in the same manner +1 to +5 is cumulative.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Riuken wrote:
Nevan Oaks wrote:

Aelryinth you state that a Sword +1, Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons), would be +7. So your sword has an actual bonus of +1 plus bane types.

Bane states that: Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.

The actual bonus of your sword is +1. So the bane bonus can only be added to this number. I you attack and evil outsider you get to add +2 for a total of +3.

If with this same weapon you attack a chaotic evil outsider the actual bonus is still +1 to this you add +2 for chaos giving a total of +3, then you add the +2 for evil, But this bonus is still only added to the ACTUAL enchantment which is still only +1 (not +3), so the weapon can’t go above +3.

Does this mean bane doesn't stack with furious? Barbarians will rage about that ;P

Bane and Furious are two different things and stack quite well.

Furious is a much more flexible effect then Bane, as well.

==Aelryinth


I have looked over the rules, and I have yet to find anything that says multiple bonuses from the same source don't stack, only that multiple bonuses of the same type don't stack. Please link the relevant text.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Aelryinth wrote:
Riuken wrote:
Nevan Oaks wrote:

Aelryinth you state that a Sword +1, Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons), would be +7. So your sword has an actual bonus of +1 plus bane types.

Bane states that: Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.

The actual bonus of your sword is +1. So the bane bonus can only be added to this number. I you attack and evil outsider you get to add +2 for a total of +3.

If with this same weapon you attack a chaotic evil outsider the actual bonus is still +1 to this you add +2 for chaos giving a total of +3, then you add the +2 for evil, But this bonus is still only added to the ACTUAL enchantment which is still only +1 (not +3), so the weapon can’t go above +3.

Does this mean bane doesn't stack with furious? Barbarians will rage about that ;P

Bane and Furious are two different things and stack quite well.

Furious is a much more flexible effect then Bane, as well.

==Aelryinth

"Furious: ... When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal. ..."

Clipped for space. If the argument is that bane doesn't stack because it adds +2 to the normal enhancement bonus, then furious doesn't stack with it either for the same reason.

Dominigo: From the PRD, "Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. ... Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." Link, relevant text is under Spell Special Effects: Bonus Types.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Domingo,
LEt me turn it around on you. Can you find any instances where multiple bonuses from the same source stack, where it isn't explicitly called out that they do?
If so, please link the relevant text.

Let me give you a very specific and clear example.
Are you saying that if I cast 10 haste spells on you, that the +1 bonus to hit stacks, and you get +10 to hit? (the bonus is untyped)
That you get +10 Extra attacks on a full attack action?
That you get +10 Dodge AC? (Dodge bonuses all stack by default).
That you get +300 to your movement rate?

Because that is what you are arguing.

No. Same source doesn't stack, and even if they are ten different Haste Spells, or Boots of Speed, they don't stack. They have never stacked. It's why you don't see spell effects like "You gain your Strength bonus to damage." Because you already DO gain that bonus, and it wouldn't stack.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Riuken wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Riuken wrote:
Nevan Oaks wrote:

Aelryinth you state that a Sword +1, Bane (Evil Outsider), Bane (Chaotic Outsider), Bane (Demons), would be +7. So your sword has an actual bonus of +1 plus bane types.

Bane states that: Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.

The actual bonus of your sword is +1. So the bane bonus can only be added to this number. I you attack and evil outsider you get to add +2 for a total of +3.

If with this same weapon you attack a chaotic evil outsider the actual bonus is still +1 to this you add +2 for chaos giving a total of +3, then you add the +2 for evil, But this bonus is still only added to the ACTUAL enchantment which is still only +1 (not +3), so the weapon can’t go above +3.

Does this mean bane doesn't stack with furious? Barbarians will rage about that ;P

Bane and Furious are two different things and stack quite well.

Furious is a much more flexible effect then Bane, as well.

==Aelryinth

"Furious: ... When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal. ..."

Clipped for space. If the argument is that bane doesn't stack because it adds +2 to the normal enhancement bonus, then furious doesn't stack with it either for the same reason.

Dominigo: From the PRD, "Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. ... Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." Link, relevant text is under Spell Special Effects: Bonus Types.

First you have to define what is normal.

An undead bane sword against undead normally has a +3 bonus. Against a human, it would be +1.
When Furious activates, this improves by +2.

I don't see a contradiction here.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Domingo,

LEt me turn it around on you. Can you find any instances where multiple bonuses from the same source stack, where it isn't explicitly called out that they do?
If so, please link the relevant text.

Let me give you a very specific and clear example.
Are you saying that if I cast 10 haste spells on you, that the +1 bonus to hit stacks, and you get +10 to hit? (the bonus is untyped)
That you get +10 Extra attacks on a full attack action?
That you get +10 Dodge AC? (Dodge bonuses all stack by default).
That you get +300 to your movement rate?

Because that is what you are arguing.

No. Same source doesn't stack, and even if they are ten different Haste Spells, or Boots of Speed, they don't stack. They have never stacked. It's why you don't see spell effects like "You gain your Strength bonus to damage." Because you already DO gain that bonus, and it wouldn't stack.

==Aelryinth

From the PRD on stacking spell effects:

"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "

Also:

"Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."

So no, I am NOT arguing that. However, these lines do not deal with weapon enhancements, so my argument is valid. Again, please link where it says these bonuses won't stack. The bonuses are untyped, so by RAW, they will stack indefinitely as long as you can keep producing them from unique weapon enhancements that apply against the creature.


This argument is a moot point right now. While SKR has said he would allow it that does not yet have the force of a FAQ and he has not yet answered all of the questions regarding this.

Remember, according to RAW you cannot place Bane on a weapon twice.

CRB p468 wrote:
Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

When the devs finally put out a FAQ out on this it is my hope that they state that yes, you can place Bane on a weapon multiple times AND that Bane does not stack with another Bane property.

- Gauss


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The +2d6 damage is Bane damage! It no more stacks than multiple fire enchantments would.

In 3.5 there was no rule against the same enchantment being placed more than once on the same weapon; this was introduced in Pathfinder.

So why weren't we swamped by +1 flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming, flaming longswords, doing 1d8+1+9d6 fire? Because enchantments/spells/effects don't stack with themselves, then or now!

I have to agree.

Bane does not stack, not until I see an FAQ or errata anyway.

Silver Crusade

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@Domingo, astonishing! You reproduce the rule which gives you the answer and you still go the other way!

"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "

I've bolded the relevant parts. Spells, or effects other than spells, do not stack with themselves!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Domingo,

you are aware that Bane Weapon is both a spell and a spell like ability, and effectively you are arguing against your own absolute proof, right?

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth, While I agree with you. It can be read and interpreted different ways. Your line of reasoning is that Evil Outsider Bane is the same as Chaotic Outsider Bane. Therefore wouldnt stack. Others are saying it is a different enchantment. I dont think RAI is for it to stack, that would lead to some cheeze effects.


Aelryinth wrote:

Domingo,

you are aware that Bane Weapon is both a spell and a spell like ability, and effectively you are arguing against your own absolute proof, right?

==Aelryinth

Actually, I am not aware that "Bane Weapon" is a spell or spell like ability, but whether or not it is, we aren't talking about that spell! We are talking about the Bane weapon enhancement which isn't even related or a spell at all! So why would those rules for spells apply to something that isn't a spell? Should I also apply that to other areas of the game when it doesn't even mention them?

I stand by my argument, as it is, by RAW, 100% accurate. There is NO RULING that says two weapon properties which are UNIQUE (since they must be unique to both exist on the same weapon) do not stack when both are applicable.

It breaks down to there being two possible ways to view this situation.

Method 1) Bane properties are all the same and as such do not stack. This does not matter, however, as they are therefore the same property and only one form of Bane can exist on a weapon.

Method 2)Bane properties keyed to different kinds of creatures are unique enhancements in and of themselves. This allows multiple versions of Bane do exist on the same weapon, but also makes each version a separate source providing unique, untyped bonuses that will stack as long as all are applicable.

As it stands, I see no way any other rulings could exist without house rules.

Silver Crusade

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Domingo wrote:-

'I stand by my argument, as it is, by RAW, 100% accurate. There is NO RULING that says two weapon properties which are UNIQUE (since they must be unique to both exist on the same weapon) do not stack when both are applicable.'

You quoted the rule yourself!

CRB wrote:-

"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "

How can you not see it! The RAW is right there!

Weapon properties are game effects.

CRB wrote:-

'Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table.'

A creature is either a designated foe, or it isn't. If it is, apply Bane. If it isn't, don't.

A direct analogy is Favoured Enemy. You can have several favoured enemy types, but the favoured enemy ability doesn't stack with itself.

Multiple Banes on a single weapon work in the same way. Each time you add this ability you add another type of creature to the list of designated foes. But it's still Bane damage, still a single game effect, and still doesn't stack with itself.


Has this question been placed into the thread SKR made for questions about magic items?


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Domingo wrote:-

'I stand by my argument, as it is, by RAW, 100% accurate. There is NO RULING that says two weapon properties which are UNIQUE (since they must be unique to both exist on the same weapon) do not stack when both are applicable.'

You quoted the rule yourself!

CRB wrote:-

"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "

How can you not see it! The RAW is right there!

It's very easy how I don't see it. Look at the first word. This rule covers SPELLS. Not weapon properties. The second part is just about bonus TYPES, not sources. It is unrelated to the Bane property! Also, there is no link by RAW between Favored Enemies and Bane weapons, so how Favored Enemies works doesn't matter at all. This is a rules forum, which is about the rules to the letter, not intent. There is no rule stating that two Bane weapon properties on the same weapon wouldn't stack if they both apply.


wraithstrike wrote:
Has this question been placed into the thread SKR made for questions about magic items?

I have no idea. I should probably check.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

Magic Weapons:Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.


Dominigo wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Domingo wrote:-

'I stand by my argument, as it is, by RAW, 100% accurate. There is NO RULING that says two weapon properties which are UNIQUE (since they must be unique to both exist on the same weapon) do not stack when both are applicable.'

You quoted the rule yourself!

CRB wrote:-

"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "

How can you not see it! The RAW is right there!

It's very easy how I don't see it. Look at the first word. This rule covers SPELLS. Not weapon properties. The second part is just about bonus TYPES, not sources. It is unrelated to the Bane property! Also, there is no link by RAW between Favored Enemies and Bane weapons, so how Favored Enemies works doesn't matter at all. This is a rules forum, which is about the rules to the letter, not intent. There is no rule stating that two Bane weapon properties on the same weapon wouldn't stack if they both apply.

Those bonus rules apply to all bonuses, not just spells. That is why it is under "Stacking Effects".

Otherwise you could have an EX ability, and an SU ability give you a moral bonus and have them stack.

Here is another quote on bonuses that does care if the source is magical or not.

Quote:
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

I can probably get a dev quote that says same type bonus to not stack, that does not even reference magic.


Bane weapon bonuses are untyped, so those rules won't apply.


Ssalarn wrote:

Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

Magic Weapons:Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

If this is correct, you can't have a weapon with Bane twice, which is fine by me. I'm just saying that if you can have Bane twice, they should stack.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

Magic Weapons:Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "

...


Oh, you are referring to the additional bonuses part? What does that have to do with this? That's just for determining market value if you read the rest of the sentence.


Dominigo wrote:
Bane weapon bonuses are untyped, so those rules won't apply.

Untyped bonuses don't stack. As I said that wording in the magic chapter does not just apply to spells. It applies across the board.

Quote:

Combining Magic Effects

Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place.

A subsection describing a general rule under this section follows

Quote:


Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Above follows, which is the Bonus Types referenced:

Quote:


Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

You should also note that it discusses racial and dodge bonuses, so it is not just covering bonuses that are generally granted by spells.

Silver Crusade

Dominigo wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Domingo wrote:-

'I stand by my argument, as it is, by RAW, 100% accurate. There is NO RULING that says two weapon properties which are UNIQUE (since they must be unique to both exist on the same weapon) do not stack when both are applicable.'

You quoted the rule yourself!

CRB wrote:-

"Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). "

How can you not see it! The RAW is right there!

It's very easy how I don't see it. Look at the first word. This rule covers SPELLS. Not weapon properties. The second part is just about bonus TYPES, not sources. It is unrelated to the Bane property! Also, there is no link by RAW between Favored Enemies and Bane weapons, so how Favored Enemies works doesn't matter at all. This is a rules forum, which is about the rules to the letter, not intent. There is no rule stating that two Bane weapon properties on the same weapon wouldn't stack if they both apply.

The section is called 'Stacking Effects.' Not 'Stacking Spells', or even 'Stacking Spell Effects'! It even calls out '...or from effects other than spells...'

Bane is an effect. It doesn't stack with itself any more than any other game effect. Magic weapon abilities are game effects!


Well, fair enough on that. But here would be my next question. Are they actually the same source? The untyped bonuses are coming from two different weapon enchantments. If you say that they are the same source, then the weapon can't have both Banes since they would be the same enchantment and would violate the one weapon property rule. Honestly, I am completely fine with ruling you can't double bane. I just think that if you can have two banes, they should stack as they are separate, untyped bonuses.


Malachi, that part is from the magic section, and the sentences specifically either call out either spells or bonus types. Wraiths trike found the rules I wanted

Grand Lodge

I thought SKR cleared this up.

Not sure why this is being debated still.


Dominigo was debating a hypothetical situation....

SKR also never said it was an official statement. He use the words "he considers...", which to me means he was speaking in an unofficial capacity. Now if he had said it in a definitive tone that would be different. I am assuming he and Jason will go over this when they go over rules that need to be clarified for magic items.

Grand Lodge

Ah. Well, hopefully soon. A ruling against would make Bane weapons the bane of Inquisitors, not stacking with their Bane ability. ;)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

So, your logic is because the Bane is two enhancements, both enhancements should stack if they overlap?

Elementary. Remember, you are using a sword. The Bane effects enhance the sword.

Therefore, what is the source of damage when the monster is struck?

The sword.
Not the Bane enhancements. There is only one source.
The monster is hit, the sword checks if it is Bane to the monster. Why, yes, it is. There is no Bane twice...it's if the sword is Bane or not, 'yes/no, not 'yes how many times'?

Trying to say Bane stacks with itself when enhancing a sword is like saying flaming flaming stacks with itself when enhancing a sword. You're arguing that two enhancements stack that are identical in all respects, except who they target.

Just like the flaming bow + flaming arrow doesn't stack, Bane X and Bane Y don't stack, either. Still the same base enhancement, you only expanded the range, not the effect.

==Aelryinth


I'm sorry how is bane bane x the same as bane y. I get flaming flaming are the same. No where in the desription does the weapon do bane damage it just does extra damage to a specific foe. If you allow the bane property multiple time per SKR suggestion then each one is a different enchantment that doesn't do bane damage it does evil outsider damge or chaos outsider damage. This is the same as doing flaming and icy damage. John Do, and John Smith or Jane Do or what ever name you are using does not make them the same or even related. Bane chaos and bane evil are no more the same then energy fire and energy cold.

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Because it's just damage from the enhancement Bane. You're trying to say damage from Bane x is different then damage from Bane Y.

Nope, its just damage from Bane. All x and y are is who the damage applies to. Think of the Bane enhancement as the source of the damage, and x and Y are recepients. X and Y are not considered seperate enhancements, any more then the +1 on a magic sword is considered different then the +3 on a magic sword.

I mean, by that logic, Greater Magic weapon would stack on top of a sword's magic!

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Because it's just damage from the enhancement Bane. You're trying to say damage from Bane x is different then damage from Bane Y.

Nope, its just damage from Bane. All x and y are is who the damage applies to. Think of the Bane enhancement as the source of the damage, and x and Y are recepients. X and Y are not considered seperate enhancements, any more then the +1 on a magic sword is considered different then the +3 on a magic sword.

I mean, by that logic, Greater Magic weapon would stack on top of a sword's magic!

==Aelryinth

Um a +1 enchantment is considered very different then a +3 enchantment in no way does anyone consider them equal. if I buy a sword +1 I can then add another enchantment becomeing a sword +2 or a sword +1 flaming, or a sword +1 bane (x). These are all considered different enchantments.

No my enchanted sword has an enchantment bonus and the spell greater magic weapon gives an enchantment bonus so that can't stack they are the same bonus.

By RAW bane (evil outsider) and bane (outsider fire) would be seperate enchantments if as per SKR you can add different banes to a weapon. We are talking function here "no fine the desription doesn't type the damage" but you keep calling it bane damage, I could just as easily call my flaming sword energy damage. The brilliant energy sword doen't do brilliant enery damgage any more than a bane sword does bane damage the bane sword does damege to evil outsider or chaotic outsider. Bane is just a name that benotes that the weapon has extra bonuses against a specific type of creature: ie.. (evil outsider, outsider (fire).

If your creature type is affected by the bane then you should take the damage creature X bane X, creature Y bane Y, creature with X and Y damage from bane X and bane Y.


Just a thought. They have said the more people who FAQ tag a post the better the chance they will look at it. Each person who is interested in the answer should go to the first post in this thread and click the FAQ.

Because I know I would love to find out the answer the Dev team would give.

Silver Crusade

Back in 3E there was no rule that prevented you from adding the same ability more than once to the same weapon. So you could make a sword +1 flaming, flaming! But it wouldn't do you any good as the damage didn't (and still doesn't) stack with itself.

You could also have a weapon that was Bane more than once. You could make a sword that was +1 Orc Bane, Human Bane. Against a half Orc it wouldn't be +5/+4d6; the half Orc was a designated foe, so the sword was +3/+2d6.

To illustrate my point, consider this; in 3.5 you could make a sword +1 Orc Bane, Orc Bane. Do you really think that it would stack? It was not against the rules to make a +1 Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane longsword. You really could make this!

So, if you turned up to the 3.5 game with this sword, how would the DM respond when, as he describes the Orc horde cresting the hill and asks you 'What ya gonna do?', you reply with the immortal line, 'I charge with my +19 longsword and hit for 1d8+19+18d6 damage'?

Nobody made such a sword because they knew it doesn't stack. Remember, this is in 3.5 where you can add the same enchantment more than once! If you consider that even if you think of multiple Banes as the same enchantment more than once OR different enchantments in 3.5, the Pathfinder devs knew about this, knew it didn't stack, and SKR knows it too. If SKR thought for a single moment that multiple Banes stack he would not say that multiple Banes on a single weapon is okay, because he doesn't want +19 swords any more than we do!

Even if you think that the +2d6 damage from Orc Bane is somehow a different game effect than the +2d6 damage from Human Bane, do you really think SKR would be okay for a player to say, 'A Hezrou, eh? As I suspected! I draw the sword I had made to fight this bad boy! My +5 Aquatic Bane, Chaotic Bane, Demon Bane, Evil Bane, Extraplanar Bane greatsword will be a +15 weapon which does 2d6+15+10d6 damage!'

If Gygax were alive today he'd be turning in his grave!

Earlier, the section on 'Stacking Effects' was posted. It actually says two things:-

a.) two bonuses from different effects that have the same type do not stack
b.) two bonuses from the same game effect do not stack

If you think that multiple Banes are the same effect, then b.) applies. If you think that multiple Banes are different game effects on the grounds that they come from different sources and are untyped, then I'll point out that the required spell to enchant Bane as a weapon special ability is the spell Summon Monster I. When you use this spell you can summon a different creature each time, but Summon Monster is always the same game effect. the different results you can suffer when under the effect of the Confusion spell are not different effects, the Confusion is the game effect!

Similarly, multiple Banes are a single game effect that targets multiple creature types.

I dare you to ask SKR if your +5 Aquatic/Chaotic/Demon/Evil/Extrapanar weapon is a +15 weapon and/or does +10d6 damage against a Hezrou!


Do you think the over use proves your point, you can not have a +1, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane, Orc Bane longsword.

Even in 3.5 the max enchantment bonus is +5 and the max of +10 for enchantment bonuses plus special ability bonus equivalent. The sword from your post is +11. The over exaggerations aside by RAW if the weapon can only have a Max of +5 enchantemt then you could only make a Longsword +1, bane (X) +2, bane (Y) +2 total +5 enchantment bonus.

There is more to making a magic weapon then the spell needed. the flaming weapon and the flaming burst have the same spells needed to create but you don't get the same effect. So not sure how that helps but did look at that.
But by this path I can then have a Holy (+2d6 vs. all evil) Bane evil outsider (+2d6) if I fight an evil outsider they stack because holy uses the spell holy smite and bane uses summon monster I.
In 3.5 you could take a feat so that you could change your fire ball from fire damage to another damage type (cold, sonic).

Bane is doing the same thing it is changing the damage or what can be damaged evil to chaotic to dragon.

Maybe stacking is the wrong ideal here. If you get a goblet of wine and it has poison X for d6 and poison Y for d6 when you drink it do you only take damage from one of the poisons or both. you are not taking 2d6 poison damage you are taking d6 x and d6 y that is why untyped bonuses stack. If you have bane dragon, bane evil outsider you fight an evil outsider dragon you are doing 2d6 dragon damage and 2d6 evil outsider damage not 4d6 bane damage.

Silver Crusade

Nevan, the Orc Bane sword in my example had Orc Bane nine times; Bane is a +1 special ability, so the sword is +10.

As to the maximum enhancement bonus, a +5 Orc Bane sword would be a +7 sword against Orcs.

Silver Crusade

I find funny that despite the developer answer quickly provided at the beginning of the thread, there are still so much posts arguing that different bane instances do not stack (or worse, stack but without any additional benefit). What did you expect, a core rulebook entry for each Bane (Subtype) so each is treated as a separate ability ?

When it's James Jacobs answering, for some people this is "not a developer's insight" so it has no weight ; and when it is indeed a developer speaking, people pretty much handwave it since it's not official FAQ.

The Bane ability would not suffer from a one-line errata to clarify the game's position on this matter.


That's because the developer answer in question doesn't mention if they stack, but only answers whether or not multiple bane abilities can be put on the same weapon.

There's really no way to know the intent as regards to bane stacking based on that answer.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Maxximilius wrote:

I find funny that despite the developer answer quickly provided at the beginning of the thread, there are still so much posts arguing that different bane instances do not stack (or worse, stack but without any additional benefit). What did you expect, a core rulebook entry for each Bane (Subtype) so each is treated as a separate ability ?

When it's James Jacobs answering, for some people this is "not a developer's insight" so it has no weight ; and when it is indeed a developer speaking, people pretty much handwave it since it's not official FAQ.

The Bane ability would not suffer from a one-line errata to clarify the game's position on this matter.

An update would be nice, whether FAQ or Errata. The thing is, SKR didn't give any official clarification, didn't say anything other than that he would allow a weapon that was Bane vs. multiple subtypes. No clarification at all was given over how he thought this would interact vs. a creature that met both subtypes.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Nevan, the Orc Bane sword in my example had Orc Bane nine times; Bane is a +1 special ability, so the sword is +10.

As to the maximum enhancement bonus, a +5 Orc Bane sword would be a +7 sword against Orcs.

Sorry but by RAW a weapon can only have an enchantment from +1 to +5 the plus 2 from bane is still an enchantment bonus and you can't go over +5

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Nevan Oaks wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Because it's just damage from the enhancement Bane. You're trying to say damage from Bane x is different then damage from Bane Y.

Nope, its just damage from Bane. All x and y are is who the damage applies to. Think of the Bane enhancement as the source of the damage, and x and Y are recepients. X and Y are not considered seperate enhancements, any more then the +1 on a magic sword is considered different then the +3 on a magic sword.

I mean, by that logic, Greater Magic weapon would stack on top of a sword's magic!

==Aelryinth

Um a +1 enchantment is considered very different then a +3 enchantment in no way does anyone consider them equal. if I buy a sword +1 I can then add another enchantment becomeing a sword +2 or a sword +1 flaming, or a sword +1 bane (x). These are all considered different enchantments.

No my enchanted sword has an enchantment bonus and the spell greater magic weapon gives an enchantment bonus so that can't stack they are the same bonus.

By RAW bane (evil outsider) and bane (outsider fire) would be seperate enchantments if as per SKR you can add different banes to a weapon. We are talking function here "no fine the desription doesn't type the damage" but you keep calling it bane damage, I could just as easily call my flaming sword energy damage. The brilliant energy sword doen't do brilliant enery damgage any more than a bane sword does bane damage the bane sword does damege to evil outsider or chaotic outsider. Bane is just a name that benotes that the weapon has extra bonuses against a specific type of creature: ie.. (evil outsider, outsider (fire).

If your creature type is affected by the bane then you should take the damage creature X bane X, creature Y bane Y, creature with X and Y damage from bane X and bane Y.

(sighs)

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying again.

When a sword goes from +1 to +2, is it a +2 sword, or a +1 +1 sword?

When a sword goes to +3 (adds the +3), is it a +3 Sword, or a +1 +1 +1 sword?

The sword is always the source of the damage. Bane is an enhancement on the sword. Bane x + Bane Y is like saying your sword =3 is a +1 +1 +1 sword, not a +3 sword. x and y are levers that open the door to the sword being Bane against an opponent...they all work off Bane, expanding it's breadth even as +1's agglomerate into +3.

You're trying to argue that Bane X and Bane Y are not part of Bane, but seperate, just like +1 +1 +1 is not a +3 sword.

It doesn't work.
----
And yes, Nevan, the bonus granted by Bane, and Furious, can exceed the normal enhancement maximum of +5. It's the classic way to get past EPic DR, which requires a +6 enhancement bonus.

==Aelryinth

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