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AoO and the threatening weapon


Rules Questions

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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

When making an Attack of Opportunity, must you make the attack with a weapon you are threatening the target with?

For example: I threaten an enemy with my Spiked Gauntlet, he provokes, can I attack him with an unarmed strike(no improved unarmed strike feat), a held whip, or an improvised weapon?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've never seen anything that requires the attack of opportunity to be made with the weapon you threaten with. In fact you can even use an attack of opportunity to perform certain combat maneuvers in lieu of a melee attack.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Could you combine an AoO with a Quick Drawn weapon?

Meaning, you threaten with one weapon, but at the time of the attack, you quickdraw another.

Can you drop a weapon as part of an AoO?

Andoran

blackbloodtroll wrote:
When making an Attack of Opportunity, must you make the attack with a weapon you are threatening the target with?

You threaten squares into which you can make a melee attack. If you attempt to use a weapon that is not currently threatening the squares, there would be no attack of opportunity.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Could you combine an AoO with a Quick Drawn weapon?

When the weapon is sheathed, it does not threaten an opponent, so you cannot use it for an AAO.

Sczarni

In the rules compendium of 3.5 it stated you do not threaten, and therefor cannot take an attack of opportunity with, a weapon you are not proficient with. I've found nothing to contradict this rule yet in Pathfinder (further input on this would be appreciated if I am incorrect) and so uphold this ruling as a DM. So the unarmed attack would be out.

An improvised weapon incurs the same -4 as if you were not proficient with the weapon (probably because you aren't) and so the answer would be no.

The whip's stat block entry clearly states you do not threaten with the weapon, and therefor cannot take an attack of opportunity. The attack with the spiked gauntlet is perfectly legal, however.

Edit: Also, as someone else stated, you CAN make combat maneuvers during an attack of opportunity, but you must have the improved unarmed strike feat as making a trip, grapple, disarm, etc. attempt requires a melee touch attack.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Do you have a RAW quote to support your position RedDog?

Following what you just said, one threatens with any object, as you can you can attack with it, as an improvised weapon.

I don't think that's how it works.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Could you combine an AoO with a Quick Drawn weapon?

Meaning, you threaten with one weapon, but at the time of the attack, you quickdraw another.

Can you drop a weapon as part of an AoO?

Quck draw wrote:
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action.

The only free action that you can do out of turn is speaking.

While the rules don't say anything about that I don't think that you can make an attack of opportunity using a kind of attack that provoke an attack of opportunity (in your example, using a unarmed attack without the appropriate feat). Allowing that would crate a chain of attacks of opportunity that would slow the game and generate confusion.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Would not the "chain of AoOs" that you fear, come about if you used a combat maneuver on a AoO?

That is most certainly doable.

Not really relevant though.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

When making an Attack of Opportunity, must you make the attack with a weapon you are threatening the target with?

Yes.

Holding a dagger does not empower your (unimproved) kicks.

-James

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Could you combine an AoO with a Quick Drawn weapon?

Meaning, you threaten with one weapon, but at the time of the attack, you quickdraw another.

Can you drop a weapon as part of an AoO?

Quck draw wrote:
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action.

The only free action that you can do out of turn is speaking.

While the rules don't say anything about that I don't think that you can make an attack of opportunity using a kind of attack that provoke an attack of opportunity (in your example, using a unarmed attack without the appropriate feat). Allowing that would crate a chain of attacks of opportunity that would slow the game and generate confusion.

You make an AoO attack with the weapon you threaten with. That AoO can be any attack type that can be used or substituted for a standard attack, not an attack action, so you can attack for damage, attack for non-lethal damage, trip, disarm or sunder as AoOs.

Yes, if you use one of the combat maneuvers, and you do not have the Improved feat for it, your AoO itself provokes an AoO from your target.

Yes, it can chain.

No, it cannot be an infinite chain, as, even with Combat Reflexes, someone will eventually run out of AoOs that they can take.

And yes, a successful AoO earlier in a chain can "break" the chain, as it can invalidate an AoO announced earlier, but taken later, by changing the circumstances so that the action is no longer legal.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am not finding RAW support for this restriction of what can be used to attack with during an AoO.

I figured the attack made during an AoO was no different in this regards, to an attack made on your own turn.

If this is not true, I would certainly like to see the RAW to support it.


james maissen wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

When making an Attack of Opportunity, must you make the attack with a weapon you are threatening the target with?

Yes.

Holding a dagger does not empower your (unimproved) kicks.

WHAT? Are you saying that holding a polearm doesnt let me kick further either?

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am not finding RAW support for this restriction of what can be used to attack with during an AoO.

I figured the attack made during an AoO was no different in this regards, to an attack made on your own turn.

If this is not true, I would certainly like to see the RAW to support it.

Well, you couldn't attack with a weapon you have sheathed at the time of the attack, as free actions typically must be taken on your turn (speaking being the noted exception). There isn't much I could find stating that your AoO must be made with the same weapon you were threatening with, but I feel like this is one of those things where the developers assumed common sense would prevail. AS a GM, I would only allow you to make an AoO with a weapon you were threatening with at the time the attack was provoked.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

As you cannot threaten with improvised weapons, your(currently unsupported) ruling would disallow a improvised weapon specialist to make AoOs with improvised weapons.

A bit cruel and needless I say.


Ssalarn wrote:
Well, you couldn't attack with a weapon you have sheathed at the time of the attack, as free actions typically must be taken on your turn (speaking being the noted exception). There isn't much I could find stating that your AoO must be made with the same weapon you were threatening with, but I feel like this is one of those things where the developers assumed common sense would prevail. AS a GM, I would only allow you to make an AoO with a weapon you were threatening with at the time the attack was provoked.

I would agree with this. Otherwise you could have an archer that has Improved Unarmed Strike shoot people with his bow as an attack of opportunity because he threatens with his kick. If you could use any weapon to deliver that attack. Kind of breaks down if you start looking at it that way.

The AoO is because you threaten. Therefore you should have to attack with the mode that allows the attack to begin with.

Could be different at another man's table though. Just my 2 pennies.


do improvised weapons truly not threaten? i don't know where that is in the rules...?
AFAIK, the only 'penalties' for them are non-proficiency, -4 to attack, and bad weapon stats...?
Otherwise they have weapon stats like any other weapon, even if those are ad-hoc created by the GM...?

if somebody has a bite attack and a polearm, they must use the bite attacks for adjacent provoked AoOs, and the polearm for AoOs provoked within the reach area.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If they were an improvised weapon specialist, one assumes they would have Catch Off-Guard, which removes the penalties for fighting with an improvised weapon. I would allow someone with Catch Off-Guard to make AoO with an improvised weapon, so, no needless penalty there. If they don't have it, then they shouldn't be as good with an improvised weapon as someone would be with a weapon they're trained in.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You cannot attack adjacent squares with reach weapons anyways.

Such an example is irrelevant.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
If they were an improvised weapon specialist, one assumes they would have Catch Off-Guard, which removes the penalties for fighting with an improvised weapon. I would allow someone with Catch Off-Guard to make AoO with an improvised weapon, so, no needless penalty there. If they don't have it, then they shouldn't be as good with an improvised weapon as someone would be with a weapon they're trained in.

There are traits, feats, and class abilities that remove the penalty when attacking with improvised weapons, but do not allow you to threaten.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
If they were an improvised weapon specialist, one assumes they would have Catch Off-Guard, which removes the penalties for fighting with an improvised weapon. I would allow someone with Catch Off-Guard to make AoO with an improvised weapon, so, no needless penalty there. If they don't have it, then they shouldn't be as good with an improvised weapon as someone would be with a weapon they're trained in.
There are traits, feats, and class abilities that remove the penalty when attacking with improvised weapons, but do not allow you to threaten.

Then that person is choosing to live with the fact that he can't make AoO in exchange for the other benefits of fighting with improvised weapons.

As a side note, could you name a few of those traits, feats and class abilities? I'd like to take a look at them all side-by-side.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Rough an Ready, Quick at Hand, Breaker Barbarian.


DO improvised weapons not threaten? i don't know where the rules say that,
they just normally have non-proficiency penalty, an extra penalty to attack, and crappy stats,
but otherwise they seem to be deriving functionality/stats from actual weapons, even if per GM fiat,
so unless they explicitly don't threaten (like normal UAS), i don't see why they shouldn't...???


blackbloodtroll wrote:

You cannot attack adjacent squares with reach weapons anyways.

Such an example is irrelevant.

Not really, all there has to be is an immediate action spell, item, or feat that would allow one to do so for it to be the case.

The core issue is does holding a dagger make you kick better?

Common sense does say no, but the wording of the combat section on AOOs does not say one way or the other.

The bow issue another brought up is a non-issue as an AOO is a melee attack.

Likewise, can you argue that when enemy A provokes an AOO that you make the attack against enemy B?

Again it's obvious that this is the intent, but the wording doesn't seem to be there either now does it?

-James

EDIT: PS: I also don't see where improvised weapons don't threaten, though it seems reasonable I don't see the rule.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The "dagger make you kick better" line makes no sense. Nothing suggested is increasing the effectiveness of unarmed strikes.

Also, suggesting using an AoO provoked by one creature to attack another is not suggested, and irrelevant.

I still have yet to find RAW support that this restriction exists.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

The "dagger make you kick better" line makes no sense. Nothing suggested is increasing the effectiveness of unarmed strikes.

Also, suggesting using an AoO provoked by one creature to attack another is not suggested, and irrelevant.

I still have yet to find RAW support that this restriction exists.

I agree it makes no sense for a dagger to make you kick better. But if you are confused as to what I mean by it:

When holding a dagger (and thus threatening squares) you are contending that a character can now kick (unimproved unarmed strike) when an enemy provokes in squares that the dagger threatens. Thus holding the dagger is improving your ability to kick.

Using an AOO to attack another certainly is not suggested, but neither is attacking with a weapon you don't threaten with. BOTH seem to not be excluded by the rules as written. And IMHO I would say that BOTH go against the RAI.

Look for the same restriction on taking an AOO against someone not provoking. It's also NOT there. If you find one spurious, you might wish to consider both to be.

Also can you show us where improvised weapons don't threaten?

-James


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Huh.
The line about not threatening with improvised weapons does not seem to exist.

This would mean, as long as you have any object in hand, you threaten.

Weird.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Huh.

The line about not threatening with improvised weapons does not seem to exist.

This would mean, as long as you have any object in hand, you threaten.

Weird.

Yeah, I was digging around trying to find something that said you couldn't threaten with an improvised weapon to clarify the difference in the abilities you posted, and couldn't find anything. So I think that pretty much narrows the field to "You can't threaten with a dagger and take your AoO with an unarmed strike, unless you have improved unarmed strike"...

Which pretty much kills the thread, right? All problems solved?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, hell, that's odd.

Should it be a thread of it's own?

I am sure many DMs will not be happy with this news.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

makes sense to me...
you don't need to be proficient in a weapon to take an AoO with it,
so being auto-non-proficient isn't really changing anything in that regard.
all the penalties make it pretty likely you AREN'T going to hit, so you would just be wasting an AoO action,
but I don't see why you couldn't try to take the AoO in the first place.

EDIT: and realistically/in-game-wise, somebody picks up a broken chair leg to wield as a weapon because they want to be ARMED, so giving them the benefits of that doesn't seem strange to me. it's a crappy weapon (damage/attack-wise), but it's still a weapon... it's an improvised weapon, but it's still a weapon.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, I am quite pleased.


RedDogMT wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
When making an Attack of Opportunity, must you make the attack with a weapon you are threatening the target with?

You threaten squares into which you can make a melee attack. If you attempt to use a weapon that is not currently threatening the squares, there would be no attack of opportunity.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Could you combine an AoO with a Quick Drawn weapon?

When the weapon is sheathed, it does not threaten an opponent, so you cannot use it for an AAO.

An AoO isn't provoked because you have a weapon drawn. The attack is provoked because a baddie has taken more than a five foot step in or through squares you threaten. It has nothing to do with the weapon you re or aren't holding; just your mere presence. Yes, if you have the QuickDraw feat, you could draw and attack or drop, draw and attack.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That's what I think, but others disagree.

Wait, I am not sure I understand.


Misunderstood Monk wrote:

An AoO isn't provoked because you have a weapon drawn.

The attack is provoked because a baddie has taken more than a five foot step in or through squares you threaten.

He never talked about AoO's PROVOKING or not, he talked about ACTUALLY MAKING AN AoO.

I may be provoking AoOs non-stop where I am sitting right now, but unless somebody is threatening me, no AoO will happen.

Or as the rules put it:

Quote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

If the weapon is in your sheath, you are unarmed, and aren't threatening, so no AoO for you.

Quickdraw allows you to draw a weapon as a free action.
Doesn't say anything about off your turn, so you have to do that on your turn, so it won't do squat for AoOs.
Free actions can be taken DURING your OWN actions, but not during other people's.
If you don't have a weapon wielded, or Improved UAS/Natural Weapons (or possibly held Touch Spell Charges, I'm not clear on that),
then you aren't threatening and can't take an AoO in response to a provocation.

I guess the rules don't technically spell out that you must make the AoO with the weapon you are actually using to threaten that area, but that makes sense and is how I've always seen it played, and how I would rule as a GM in any game, including PFS. It only seems relevant to UAS AoO's... EDIT: Also non-threatening weapons like Whips.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

When making an Attack of Opportunity, must you make the attack with a weapon you are threatening the target with?

For example: I threaten an enemy with my Spiked Gauntlet, he provokes, can I attack him with an unarmed strike(no improved unarmed strike feat), a held whip, or an improvised weapon?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to threaten with your spiked gauntlet, but make the AoO with the unarmed strike. The rules do say that you can't make an AoO if you're unarmed (or with weapons that specifically say they don't threaten). So while you do threaten with the spiked gauntlet, you don't threaten with the unarmed strike. I think it's too much of a stretch to say you can substitute the unarmed strike.

On the other hand, I don't see a problem with substituting a quick drawn dagger for the spiked gauntlet. (was it you that mentioned quick draw? I can't remember the scenario in which it was brought up). If it was suggesting to quick draw if you're unarmed, I think that is a definite no: you wouldn't threaten in the first place, so the AoO wouldn't even be triggered.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting Subscriber

My only question to the OP is, If you have a spiked gauntlet, why would you choose to attack with an unarmed strike (nonlethal), a silver tankard/other improvised weapon, or how does a 'held whip' even do damage?

I understand the nuance of the question, but as a player/DM I'm going to take (and rule) that the AoO is with the weapon in hand- when did you have an opportunity to grab a chair to use as an improvised weapon (regardless of your feats) and decide that was a better option than your spiked gauntlet/held weapon?

Just my input, much of what's been posted is very well-thought and better grounded in rules than my 2 cp.

A very informative and civilized thread, thank you! It brought up a few scenarios to keep in mind for the future- heat-of-the-moment questions like this are worth discussion.


It's funny for me that anybody would ever think that Improvised Weapons couldn't take AoOs - but we all overlook or assume different stuff.
But I think it's crucially important for them to be ABLE to take AoO's for them to be actually useful, and thus see use in the game. Imagine the standard scenario for Improvised Weapons: Bar Fight, people picking up broken chair legs. Now, with enforced non-proficiency AND the -4 penalty, most of the low-level bar denizens would practically never hit using those, thus they would probably just make UAS vs. other unarmed enemies. But if they are wielding the Improvised Weapon, that means that against anybody who provokes (read: non-Improved UAS attacks), they get a FREE attack with the chair leg... Even if it's low chances to hit (lower than their UAS), then that's valuable even if it only hits on a 20. Holding an Improvised Weapons vs. somebody who doesn't is a serious advantage.
Now with both brawlers wielding Improvised Weapons, it becomes more dangerous for either side to make a UAS attack, albeit since that is their best chance to hit they may just 'gamble' and risk the AoO anyways. This feels like how Improvised Weapons should work to me.

Andoran

Quandary wrote:

He never talked about AoO's PROVOKING or not, he talked about ACTUALLY MAKING AN AoO.

I may be provoking AoOs non-stop where I am sitting right now, but unless somebody is threatening me, no AoO will happen.

Or as the rules put it:

Quote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
If the weapon is in your sheath, you are unarmed, and aren't threatening, so no AoO for you.

Yup. Quandary recognized the point I was making.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Now, I understand the reasoning, but I am still not finding RAW support.

By the way, I am not sure why it was suggested, but whips deal damage.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Now, I understand the reasoning, but I am still not finding RAW support.

Can you find RAW support for having to attack the opponent that provokes the AOO rather than another one also within reach?

For example you have armor spikes and a longspear. Opponent A provokes adjacent to you, so you make a melee attack with your longspear against opponent B.

Now I think BOTH are firmly against RAI, but you'll notice that the RAW never does say that you make the melee attack against the foe that provokes...

-James


Pathfinder Campaign Setting Subscriber

I think I misinterpreted your whip quip. I was literally thinking it as being held-like-Indy-not-using-it, maybe trying to use the butt of the whip as an improvised weapon. If it's the weapon you used last on your turn, heck yeah you could use it, imo. Sorry for the confusion.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I seriously do not understand the longspear and "improvised whip" comments.

I really do not see how the reach and attacking creatures who did not provoke relate.

Also, why would using an attack or combat maneuver that provokes be denied on a AoO?

Why would a whip need to be used "improvised"?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am not finding RAW support for this restriction of what can be used to attack with during an AoO.

I figured the attack made during an AoO was no different in this regards, to an attack made on your own turn.

If this is not true, I would certainly like to see the RAW to support it.

I don't think it's explicitly stated in the rules but it is there in the logic of the rules. In order to make and Attack of Opportunity on a target you must threaten the target, so if you don't threaten the target you can't make an AoO. If you threaten a target with more than one weapon you can choose which one you make the AoO with but as stated, just because you threaten a target with a reach weapon doesn't mean that you can kick it from 10 feet away unless you have reach with your kick as well and your kicks threaten the target.

As for unarmed strikes, unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike (or some other ability that lets your unarmed attacks threaten) not only does your unarmed strike not threaten the target but you provoke an AoO from the target you're attacking.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Misunderstood Monk wrote:
RedDogMT wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
When making an Attack of Opportunity, must you make the attack with a weapon you are threatening the target with?

You threaten squares into which you can make a melee attack. If you attempt to use a weapon that is not currently threatening the squares, there would be no attack of opportunity.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Could you combine an AoO with a Quick Drawn weapon?

When the weapon is sheathed, it does not threaten an opponent, so you cannot use it for an AAO.

An AoO isn't provoked because you have a weapon drawn. The attack is provoked because a baddie has taken more than a five foot step in or through squares you threaten. It has nothing to do with the weapon you re or aren't holding; just your mere presence. Yes, if you have the QuickDraw feat, you could draw and attack or drop, draw and attack.

An AoO is provoked if you do something in another character's threatened area. If you do not threaten any areas around you then you cannot take AoO. So if you're not wielding a weapon (usually a melee weapon) you cannot take AoO unless you threaten with your "unarmed" attacks. This would not change if you have the Quick Draw feat either because Quick Draw just changes the action to a Free Action (even these can only be taken on YOUR turn not during someone else's, with the exception of speech). The only type of action that can be taken on another characters turn is an Immediate Action as they can "interrupt" another character's actions.


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yeah, due to how it was 'split up'/worded, the RAW isn't 'directly' stating this, but it's pretty much very obviously implied that the AoOs you may make because you threaten an area (WITH A WEAPON) should be made with the weapon(s) that is doing the threatening. FAQ if you want to, I already did.

as far as I can tell, nobody would really want to make a non-Improved UAS strike as AoO (even if they could, via a held dagger threatening). If you had some special reason to do so (stunning fist, monk damage UAS, etc) then your UAS will already be threatening itself.

so the only case I can see for the 'weapon threat = the weapon that can take AoO' doubters is for weapons like whip that don't threaten, but may have special properties you would like to use, e.g. bonuses to CMB types, possible grapple effects, etc. again, it may not be EXPLICIT in the RAW, but I think it's definitely IMPLICIT that a dagger (or 1-handed longspear if Pole Arm Fighter, etc) is not going to allow you to make an AoO with your whip that you couldn't otherwise... You need to find a special ability to let whips threaten if you want to make an AoO with a whip, otherwise: no dice.

there definitely is a difference between the rules having an implicit function that is the clear rationale behind the RAW and whereby things just function better, and cases where the rules just happen to be vague in certain areas but there isn't any 'driving force' behind the rules that is implicated in the RAW. this subject is in the first group.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I seriously do not understand the longspear and "improvised whip" comments.

I really do not see how the reach and attacking creatures who did not provoke relate.

Your contention is that because the RAW do not say that one must make the AOO with a weapon that is threatening the square, that one can take an AOO with a weapon that would normally not be able to make an AOO simply because the person also had a weapon that could.

My response is THAT WITH THE SAME BASIS, the RAW do not say that the TARGET of your AOO must be the one who provoked it.

You are saying that while most of us have taken the weapon used to be implied it is NOT stated.

I am saying that JUST LIKE THIS the target of the AOO is NOT stated.

Now it may be that you only wish to change the weapon you are using and not the target. But the basis for doing either is just as strong.

My example simply combined both. Does that clear things up?

-James

Sczarni

Considering the rules explicitly state you cannot take a free action on someone else's turn I don't understand why there is even a discussion on if you can quick draw for an AoO. Do you threaten the square? Yes. Did they provoke an attack? Yes. Can you take a single melee attack against the target? Yes. Can you do anything else whatsoever? No.

Quote:
If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

You don't have time to do anything else.


Corren28 wrote:
Considering the rules explicitly state you cannot take a free action on someone else's turn I don't understand why there is even a discussion on if you can quick draw for an AoO.

Someone can provoke an AOO during your turn.

-James

Andoran

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

@James: Normally, AoOs can only be taken with a melee weapon, but the Snap Shot feat chain allows threatening and taking AoOs with ranged weapons.

For wield whip and dagger, I actually have a PC who does, and I have never even considered taking any AoOs provoked in my dagger threatened area as being able to be taken with a whip. Without Improved Whip Mastery, whips do not threaten, and cannot, therefore, be used to take AoOs. The same holds true for unarmed strikes. Without Improved Unarmed Strike, an unarmed attack does not threaten, and therefore cannot be used to take an AoO.

Simple question:
Is the weapon you are making an AoO with threaten the square where the AoO was provoked? If the answer is "No.", how do you get an AoO with it? It doesn't threaten.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the rules-as-written I can AoO anybody crowd:

Attacks of Opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work. (Core Rulebook p. 180, emphasis added)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah, I simply don't see why comparing apples to oranges with the talk about using an AoO to attack someone who did not provoke is relevant.

You can't do it, and it is not what is being discussed.

Also, the whip is a fine example of what I am asking about.

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