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Help with making a Mystic Theurge


Advice


As the title says I'm working on a Mystic Theurge build with pathfinder, any help would be handy, the plan is 3 cleric and 3 wizard before taking the class but feat ideas would be great.


What do you want to do with the character? focus on arcane, focus on divine casting? Debuff, buff, control? Any race in mind? What books are available? Point buy?


You could be into MT by level 5 with the magical knack trait. Wizard 3/Cleric 1 for the free wizard spells in the book. See if you can play a Samsaran, boosts both Int and Wis. Do human if you cant, maybe consider the trait for giving up the bonus feat for an extra +2 to a stat.


any non-3rd party source is available, and I'm human. Stats are as follows:

13 str
12 dex
10 con
18 int
16 wis
14 cha

my first level is cleric, with the knowledge and stregth domains (ironi is the god) my first level feats are fast learner, improvisation, and beguiler's bite. I've already played in the first game so that can't change much. I was thinking if I do take a school specialty I was going to make Divination and Conjuration as my barred schools cause Cleric has most of the spells I like from those schools on it's list so not a huge loss but I haven't taken my first wizard level, and I'm not sure where to go from here. The character is kind of jack of all trades-y I'm just trying to think of ways to increase the CL of the wizard and cleric classes cause I know that multiclassing is a weakpoint as far as pathfinder is concerned.


how does magical knack allow you to enter the prestige class early you need to be able to cast level 2 arcane and divine spells but magical knack just increases your caster level not the spells you have access to


Magical Knack will be useful, but it will NOT allow early entry to the class. It only boosts effective caster level, not the spell level you can cast -- a Wizard 3/Cleric 1 with Magical Knack (Cleric) can still only cast level 1 cleric spells, it's just that they behave as if cast by a 3rd level caster.

MTs get tons of spells per day, but suffer from two big disadvantages:

1) They are always far behind pure spellcasters in terms of spell level. A Wizard 9 will be casting 5th level spells. A Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 3 will only have 3rd level spells. In terms of sheer power, the MT is way behind.

2) Since they have two casting stats (usually INT and WIS), Mystic Theurges often have trouble getting their save DCs high enough to stay competitive.

In exchange, they get a HUGE variety of possible spells, and will still be casting long after a single-classed caster has run dry. I'm inclined to think that MT is a most natural fit for a character focused on supporting allies with buffs, utility spells, and healing. Save DCs don't matter on those, and the combat oriented characters will love you. For offense, look for spells that don't allow saves, or that target objects/terrain rather than enemies.


I would *LOVE* to be able to make this work, but every way I've tried, and every thread I've read always ends up the same: you'll be terribad.
Yeah you'll have a ton of spells, but the BBEG will resist them all, anyway. You'll have the equivalent of a .50 machine gun, while everyone else is hurling nukes.

*IF* the game goes to level 20+ you'll be Gandalf, but for levels 1-19 you'll be a filthy hobbitses.

The only way I see that it MIGHT work is once the Mythic rules are out, to use your mythic tiers to fill out the character concept, either as a pure class who diversifies into the tiers, or as an an MT with tiers of both. I guess we'll have to see until it comes out how it will all work. Or if your DM allows the Arcane Hierophant class, you go Wiz 3/ Druid 3/ MT 10 /AH 4 and still get double 9s.

I actually brought up the desire to have a non-terrible way of doing the MT, and James Jacobs himself replied to me:

James Jacobs wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:

Since James is here, I'd just like to say:

I'd like a non-terrible Mystic Theurge.

I'm playing a straight Cleric now, and I'd *love* to go into MT.
But even at 20 (despite the fact that our AP ends around lvl 16)
3 Wiz/3 Cleric/ 10 MT / 2 Cleric / 2 Wiz would leave me with what?
Terrible in 2 things. Or to go 7/3/10 leaves me way behind in one and terrible in the other?
Why not stick with one, and then pick up Leadership?

I recognize that any PRC has to come with some trade offs...but having to accept that picking up a certain class basically guarantees you'll be terrible at high levels doesn't seem that 'prestigious' to me.

If what you're asking for is essentially "A mystyc theurge that is better than playing a conjoined twin wizard/cleric..." you won't get one.

You HAVE to lose something if you multiclass (this includes prestige classes), otherwise there's no point to singleclass.

A better solution for your problem, honestly, would be to get the GM's permission to play two characters—one a wizard, and one a cleric. Or barring that, one with the Leadership feat with a cohort of the other class.

Grand Lodge

Play a witch. They have some of the best cleric and wizard spells on their list and they get ACTUAL class abilities called hexes. And they don't suck...you don't need as much stats...and seriously a 30 point buy?!?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ecw1701 wrote:

I would *LOVE* to be able to make this work, but every way I've tried, and every thread I've read always ends up the same: you'll be terribad.

Ignore them.they're all focused on winning DPR matches on playing the game the way a single classed character would.

Focus on the reasons WHY you want to build such a character. There are good and valid roles for a Mystic Theurge to play but uou can't play the game of the single classed caster, you have to redefine your own.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone. As I said, I think an MT would make quite a good support caster. If you're mostly casting buffs, utility spells, and healing, save DCs are irrelevant. And that extra support could easily mean the difference between survival and TPK in a long drawn-out fight, or when you're forced to handle several complicated encounters in a row without rest.

I kind of hesitate to mention this, 'cause it's a little cheesy, but ... the Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training Guild rules in Inner Sea Magic (p. 22) appear to offer a way to get a Mystic Theurge with full casting in one class, and near-full casting in the other.

Eclectic Training is a Fame reward (at 5 Fame) that boosts your caster level by +1 in one class. And it specifies that this bonus includes "the number of spells you know and can cast per day". When you get Esoteric Training at 35 Fame, the bonus increases to +3, and you get to add a second class at +1 for the same benefits.

So a Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 3 with 35 fame in a guild could cast as a 9th-level wizard and a 7th-level cleric. Or the other way around, depending on which class you pick for the bonus first. Add Magical Knack for the class that gets the lower bonus and your effective CL would be equal to your HD in both classes (though spells known and per day would still be 2 levels behind in the slower class).

All of which is contingent on the GM agreeing to allow the guild rules in your game, and it'd probably need a good bit of backstory establishing a suitable guild identity and Fame checks. I'd probably allow it in my game, but the Fame checks would be difficult (especially at lower levels) and the guild would probably require you to complete occasional side-quests.

Frankly, though, it might be easier to just ask to play a gestalt character and be done with it. :-Þ


Make MT work well first let look at the down side you are 2 spell level behind other level caster... Ie you are casing fire ball wehen there are casting cone of cold. To your giveing up 2 DC to your spell off the bat. Upper level class abilty you do not get and the lose of advancement of cast abilty that you already have. ie channel stop at 2 dice.

If lose all that and you still want to make a go at what do you get...
Spells, spells, and more spells. You can cast more per day than any other build out there.
What can you do well

Save DC out. So Drop Evoation, Necromany, Charm

Summon if ok want to swam the field but, big monster not going to happen you are 2 level behind. There gose conjuration.

Buff.... Wow you buff all day long and add more buffs than any one can think of 2 list worth.

Think how many round you get to buff now before a fight 1,2,3 tops.
Sure and you do it agian next fight.

Bottom line it not sexy, flashy, or cool like a Sport car...You are box truck ment to do work haul. You will make evey one else better but your self not so much.

Armor and spell bad half you list you now have to deal with Arcane spell fairure. Or have lower AC due to fact you not wearing armor like most other divine type caster.

HP lower than straight cleric. 6d for all MT and all Wizard/witch level

Lower BaB than most Divien caster 1/2 for all MT and all Wizard/witch level.

Way I see it to help odd build like Ranger 7 Wizard 1 Arcane Archer 10 MT 2 just get more spell or Palidan 7, Sorcerer 1 Dragon D 10 MT 2.

Now if spend 2 feat to get you back to even DC you become even on save DC.

If you go wizard with Scribe scroll you should alway have the right spell for the job.

If you cast at DC base spell you becom spam caster save or fail you have another one next round and 4 round down the row.

Bottom line it realy hard to make it work. But it you can it realy cool. If you in party full of muts it is good, if you are 3 rd caster in the Party it cool. I played Ranger 7 Bard 5 MT 8 and it was fun but we use farctional rules for BaB and saves it helped greatly so i end with +14.75 BaB at level 20. I was still able to fight with weapons.


Arcane Strike (Combat)
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level

I fond it loop hole +1 damage every 5 caster level you have. Well a Cleric 3 / Wizrd 3 MT 7 20 caster level at 13 so he get +5 faster.


1: Take Razmiran Priest Sorcerer
2: Grab a Circlet of Persuasion
3: Don't take cleric levels
4: ???
5: Profit.

Without early entry cheese (which is only an option with 3.5 material), Mystic Theurge is pretty bad. Razmiran Priest gives what you want from MT (Divine and arcane spells) with none of the hassle.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Tom S 820 wrote:

Arcane Strike (Combat)

You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level

I fond it loop hole +1 damage every 5 caster level you have. Well a Cleric 3 / Wizrd 3 MT 7 20 caster level at 13 so he get +5 faster.

Nice try but caster levels don't stack.


The most powerful character I played in 3.5 was a Mystic Theurge, haven't tried one in PFRPG yet. Was able to take a feat for multi-classing casters twice, once for Cleric and once for Wizard to keep the Caster Level the same as my character level, and IMHO that over-powered the PC; there wasn't any situation that came up that I didn't have a spell for, and therein lies the real strength of a Mystic Theurge.

For a Druid (Menhir Savant archetype) I played recently in PFRPG I was first debating Mystic Theurge by multiclassing with Wizard (friend was running a campaign where Cleric wasn't allowed) but decided straight Druid was better for the things I had in mind for the character.

Instead of MT you may want to look into the Pathfinder Savant PRC, while it doesn't have the same insane amount of spell options available you would be able to dabble in Wizard spells without losing any Caster Level (if that's even a worry - one player in a 3.5 game I ran had a necro-themed MT without those "boost multi-class CL" feats I took when a later book came out and didn't have many problems with the -3 CL per casting class).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My best advice for anyone who wants to play a MT is to try really hard to convince your dm to let you play the Super Genius Games Magister (available on pfd20srd as magister, called the Magus if you get the pdf from here at paizo). Does what you want, does it without the jumbled mess of multiclassing primary casters, and has some coold abilities to go with it.


LazarX wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:

I would *LOVE* to be able to make this work, but every way I've tried, and every thread I've read always ends up the same: you'll be terribad.

Ignore them.they're all focused on winning DPR matches on playing the game the way a single classed character would.

Focus on the reasons WHY you want to build such a character. There are good and valid roles for a Mystic Theurge to play but uou can't play the game of the single classed caster, you have to redefine your own.

+1


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

OK, MT is weak for pure power, but you CAN be a force multiplier.

Focus on Buffs, both cleric and arcane.

Uee your feats to ENCHANT stuff. Basically use your downtime to make items for the rest of the party.

You will be behind the power curve of the rest of the party, but you will boost the power curve of your party depending on hwo your DM does WBL.

Finally IF your GM uses eclectic training and esoteric training from innser sea magic... Go with wizard 6/cleric 4/MT 10 with your +3 class going cleric and your +1 class going wizard giving you 9th level spells in each (at 20).

Sczarni

I think there is a feat in one of the newer books thats helps with this...maybe in one of the Innersea books? Man I wish I could think of the feat that helped out with this class like specifically...

Edit: I think its in Innersea Magic...if that helps someone find me the feat for this guy >.>


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ossian666 wrote:

I think there is a feat in one of the newer books thats helps with this...maybe in one of the Innersea books? Man I wish I could think of the feat that helped out with this class like specifically...

Edit: I think its in Innersea Magic...if that helps someone find me the feat for this guy >.>

Perhaps you could read the post directly above yours :)

Sczarni

Doh! Fail at reading comprehension!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree with the focus on buffs suggestion. You can be a cool party support character--just make sure you want to play party support!

For feats, I'd really just go with what you feel works for you -- metamagic can always be helpful; a buffer can do well with Extend Magic. If you wanted you could also take some channel boosts--your channel energy will stop advancing once you prestige, so boosting its output with a feat in some way could help keep it useful (if you can't find another feat to use). I also agree with the suggestion to take some item creation feats---mystic theurges are in a unique spot to really make just about anything, more than anyone else.

I know you want to do a cleric/wizard, but I've been playing with a weird idea of doing cleric/bard/MT for a buffer/support type. You'll have to be bard 4/cleric 3 before prestiging. The benefits to this is that before prestiging, you will remain consistently a 3/4 BAB class (helpful for boosting succeeding on those touch attacks) and you can wear light armor and even a buckler (with some limitations) and cast away with all your spells--not that you'll be a combat focused character, but being hard to hit while you're spamming spells is good. Of course, bard spells don't go up as high but they've got some cool stuff higher up on their list, and you also get more skills and performances--other ways to support the party in case you end up in a dead magic zone or something. You could probably do something similar with magic.

Cleric and wizard are fine though--just be sure you pick schools and domains that have good abilities that are useful out of the box at low levels, because you're not going to advance them for a long while past 3rd level, if at all. The travel domain is great because you get that solid 10 feet of movement per round, don't have to worry about that advancing.


Tinalles wrote:

MTs get tons of spells per day, but suffer from two big disadvantages:

still be casting long after a single-classed caster has run dry.

Pretty sure that the numbers don't really bear this out, though it has been a long time since I've run them across multiple levels.

Looking at (drawing from a hat) an 8th level MT vs. an 8th level wizard, assuming the Mt has 18s in both casting casts and the wizard has a single 20, you end up with a difference of only three spells per day in favor of the MT.

8th level though would seem to be a fairly good level for the MT in that matchup, given it is only one level of spells behind. At 9th the wizard picks up a second level of spells on him (5th vs. 3rd) and probably buffs his int score another couple points.


Thanks for the tips and info, I like the idea of joining a guild seems very in line with my character and something that could deffinetly be fun to roleplay. The idea of bard in place of wizard is kind of intriguing, and I'm going to look into that a bit but I do like the idea of wiz/cleric and item creation feats because of the extent of potential spells at my disposal making the creating of items a bit more possible. I like the ability to acess alot of differant things, and I probablly well focus more on a support role especially at higher levels.


Peter Stewart wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
... still be casting long after a single-classed caster has run dry.
Pretty sure that the numbers don't really bear this out, though it has been a long time since I've run them across multiple levels.

Hmm. Well, let's look at 9th level, since that's what I've been using before.

Assumptions:

1) We're at level 9 -- a straight Wiz 9 versus a Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 3.

2) Both the MT and the straight Wizard have picked a school specialization for extra slots.

3) The MT has 18 in 2 stats, the straight Wiz has a 20 INT.

Spells per day for the straight Wiz 9:

Cantrips = 4
1st = 4 base + 2 INT bonus + 1 school = 7
2nd = 4 base + 1 INT bonus + 1 school = 6
3rd = 3 base + 1 INT bonus + 1 school = 5
4th = 2 base + 1 INT bonus + 1 school = 4
5th = 1 base + 1 INT bonus + 1 school = 3

Total 25 spells per day, plus non-depletable cantrips.

Spells per day for the MT:

Wizard side (as 6th)
Cantrips = 4
1st = 3 base + 1 INT bonus + 1 school = 5
2nd = 3 base + 1 INT bonus + 1 school = 5
3rd = 2 base + 1 INT bonus + 1 school = 4

14 wizard spells per day, plus non-depletable cantrips.

Cleric side (as 6th)
Cantrips = 4
1st = 3 base + 1 WIS bonus + 1 domain = 5
2nd = 3 base + 1 WIS bonus + 1 domain = 5
3rd = 2 base + 1 WIS bonus + 1 domain = 4

14 cleric spells per day, plus non-depletable orisons.

Total 28 spells per day, plus cantrips and orisons.

You're right. It doesn't actually net you very many extra spells per day.

Could still be fun to play one, of course. Just depends on what you want to do.


So the DM is veto'ing me joing a guild so I think I'm going to focus on support/crafting, any ideas for what I should take for ym barred and focused school? I was thinking divination and conjuration as my barred cause the divination I like the cleric can do, and the conjuration seems like it won't be that useful in the long run with a MT


Make sure your GM is willing to support crafting in-campaign.

I once had a wizard focused completely on crafting -- every feat devoted to crafting, huge investment in crafting skills -- and made it from 1st to 10th level without finishing even one item, because there was no down time, and the GM ruled that I couldn't craft while adventuring despite not requiring any sleep (this was a 3.5 era Eberron campaign; I was warforged). It was intensely frustrating.

So ... just make sure your GM is on-board with that, or else that there'll be periods in between adventures where you'll have time to craft stuff.


he is in favor of crafting


Ughbash wrote:
Finally IF your GM uses eclectic training and esoteric training from innser sea magic... Go with wizard 6/cleric 4/MT 10 with your +3 class going cleric and your +1 class going wizard giving you 9th level spells in each (at 20).

This has me greatly intrigued.

So much so that I asked the DM if guild rules are available in our campaign. With the impending mythic rules playtest, we'll be doing great deeds anyway; may as well be earning street cred with muggles and gods alike.

It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.

Silver Crusade

ecw1701 wrote:
It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.

Not any more then a single class caster. Action economy prevents you from doing every thing at one time. Along with the fact that the differences in spell level from 8 to 9 is huge. I have played a lot of high level games. I can tell you missing out on level 9 spells for any caster is a huge lose. It dose not matter how many spells you can cast. It is a matter of what spells you can cast.

My advice is the same for any one wanting to play a MT. Witch can do the same things, and do them better.
Witch (Hedge Witch)
Patron: Healing


calagnar wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:
It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.
Not any more then a single class caster. Action economy prevents you from doing every thing at one time. Along with the fact that the differences in spell level from 8 to 9 is huge. I have played a lot of high level games. I can tell you missing out on level 9 spells for any caster is a huge lose. It dose not matter how many spells you can cast. It is a matter of what spells you can cast.

Well, you skipped the most important part: the guild rules allowing for double 9's. A long climb, but you WOULD get there.

Edit: And Witchs can't cast magic missile or fireball; call me old fashioned, but you're not a real arcane caster without those two spells.
But a Witch is a tolerable MT in a can, yes.


I think the best Mystic Theurge is a Samsaran Wizard that takes the Pathfinder Savant Prestige Class.

That's 6 Arcane Spells not on the Wizard's Spell List which lets you pick up Heal, Resurrection, Raise Dead, Good Hope, Bard's Escape, and more from the Bard and Witch spell lists.

And then you get 6 spells on ANY list which lets you pick up other Cleric spells you couldn't snatch with the Samsaran.

It's not exactly the same as just having the dual spell lists, but the advantages are that you only lose 1 caster level instead of 3, letting you grab level 9 spells at level 18. You also only have to focus on INT making you a lot less MAD.

I'm sure that the opposite works as well, starting off as a Cleric Samsaran and moving into Pathfinder Savant later on, but I'm not sure that the other Divine Spell Casting Classes grant the same options that the Arcane Classes have, unless your DM lets you pull spells from Domains with your Samsaran Mystic Past Life feature.

Grand Lodge

calagnar wrote:


My advice is the same for any one wanting to play a MT. Witch can do the same things, and do them better.
Witch (Hedge Witch)
Patron: Healing

That's what I said like ages ago...and nobody bothered a peep :P .

As for if you want fireball and other blasty spells, be an elements patron and off you go.


Another alternate option to Mystic Theurge that I like is using a new Oracle archetype from the ARG. An Elven Oracle (Ancient Lorekeeper) with the Haunted Curse to be precise. You can still pick whatever Mystery you desire to help round out the character.

Ancient Lorekeeper replaces whatever bonus spells you get with any wizard/sorcerer spells of your choice, but they are treated as 1 level higher (IE you cast Fireball as a 4th level spell).

The Haunted Curse eventually gives you 6 specific arcane spells that aren't usually on your list. The good thing is that many of these are pretty awesome (Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Levitate, Minor Image, Telekinesis, and Reverse Gravity).

The obvious downside to this build is that Evles don't give the Cha bonus, and that most of your "arcane" spells take up a one level higher spell slot. Of course this is offset by the fact that you only need 1 caster stat, that you have almost complete control over your Mystery spells, and that your Oracle spell casting and Revelations will never fall behind.


Samsaran Wizard...is that something from 3.5?
Our campaign is core only; the DM doesn't even allow 3rd party Pathfinder.


Samsaran is a race in Pathfinder if you look at either the Advanced Race Guide (Core) and the Dragon Empires. It is Pathfinder AND Core.


Merkatz wrote:

Another alternate option to Mystic Theurge that I like is using a new Oracle archetype from the ARG. An Elven Oracle (Ancient Lorekeeper) with the Haunted Curse to be precise. You can still pick whatever Mystery you desire to help round out the character.

Ancient Lorekeeper replaces whatever bonus spells you get with any wizard/sorcerer spells of your choice, but they are treated as 1 level higher (IE you cast Fireball as a 4th level spell).

The Haunted Curse eventually gives you 6 specific arcane spells that aren't usually on your list. The good thing is that many of these are pretty awesome (Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Levitate, Minor Image, Telekinesis, and Reverse Gravity).

The obvious downside to this build is that Evles don't give the Cha bonus, and that most of your "arcane" spells take up a one level higher spell slot. Of course this is offset by the fact that you only need 1 caster stat, that you have almost complete control over your Mystery spells, and that your Oracle spell casting and Revelations will never fall behind.

Now THIS looks promising...time to check the ol' SRD hehe.


"The following oracle mysteries complement the ancient lorekeeper archetype: Lore, Nature, Waves, Wind; Ancestor, Time, Wood."

I take that to mean they *can't* be Oracles of Battle, or is this more a flavor suggestion?


Flavor suggestion


Odraude wrote:
Flavor suggestion

Impressive, most impressive.

I think this will help me pull off the other build I was proposing in the other thread.
It could also be used to pull off the 'fighter/mage/thief' build people were talking about with a dip or two as well.

It won't be flawless, and still a bit MAD...but effective, nonetheless.

I didn't start this thread, but it solved a problem I've been grappling with for a LONG time...thanks.

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