I would *LOVE* to be able to make this work, but every way I've tried, and every thread I've read always ends up the same: you'll be terribad.
Yeah you'll have a ton of spells, but the BBEG will resist them all, anyway. You'll have the equivalent of a .50 machine gun, while everyone else is hurling nukes.
*IF* the game goes to level 20+ you'll be Gandalf, but for levels 1-19 you'll be a filthy hobbitses.
The only way I see that it MIGHT work is once the Mythic rules are out, to use your mythic tiers to fill out the character concept, either as a pure class who diversifies into the tiers, or as an an MT with tiers of both. I guess we'll have to see until it comes out how it will all work. Or if your DM allows the Arcane Hierophant class, you go Wiz 3/ Druid 3/ MT 10 /AH 4 and still get double 9s.
I actually brought up the desire to have a non-terrible way of doing the MT, and James Jacobs himself replied to me:
Since James is here, I'd just like to say:
I'd like a non-terrible Mystic Theurge.I'm playing a straight Cleric now, and I'd *love* to go into MT.
But even at 20 (despite the fact that our AP ends around lvl 16)
3 Wiz/3 Cleric/ 10 MT / 2 Cleric / 2 Wiz would leave me with what?
Terrible in 2 things. Or to go 7/3/10 leaves me way behind in one and terrible in the other?
Why not stick with one, and then pick up Leadership?I recognize that any PRC has to come with some trade offs...but having to accept that picking up a certain class basically guarantees you'll be terrible at high levels doesn't seem that 'prestigious' to me.
If what you're asking for is essentially "A mystyc theurge that is better than playing a conjoined twin wizard/cleric..." you won't get one.
You HAVE to lose something if you multiclass (this includes prestige classes), otherwise there's no point to singleclass.
A better solution for your problem, honestly, would be to get the GM's permission to play two characters—one a wizard, and one a cleric. Or barring that, one with the Leadership feat with a cohort of the other class.
Make MT work well first let look at the down side you are 2 spell level behind other level caster... Ie you are casing fire ball wehen there are casting cone of cold. To your giveing up 2 DC to your spell off the bat. Upper level class abilty you do not get and the lose of advancement of cast abilty that you already have. ie channel stop at 2 dice.
If lose all that and you still want to make a go at what do you get...
Spells, spells, and more spells. You can cast more per day than any other build out there.
What can you do well
Save DC out. So Drop Evoation, Necromany, Charm
Summon if ok want to swam the field but, big monster not going to happen you are 2 level behind. There gose conjuration.
Buff.... Wow you buff all day long and add more buffs than any one can think of 2 list worth.
Think how many round you get to buff now before a fight 1,2,3 tops.
Sure and you do it agian next fight.
Bottom line it not sexy, flashy, or cool like a Sport car...You are box truck ment to do work haul. You will make evey one else better but your self not so much.
Armor and spell bad half you list you now have to deal with Arcane spell fairure. Or have lower AC due to fact you not wearing armor like most other divine type caster.
HP lower than straight cleric. 6d for all MT and all Wizard/witch level
Lower BaB than most Divien caster 1/2 for all MT and all Wizard/witch level.
Way I see it to help odd build like Ranger 7 Wizard 1 Arcane Archer 10 MT 2 just get more spell or Palidan 7, Sorcerer 1 Dragon D 10 MT 2.
Now if spend 2 feat to get you back to even DC you become even on save DC.
If you go wizard with Scribe scroll you should alway have the right spell for the job.
If you cast at DC base spell you becom spam caster save or fail you have another one next round and 4 round down the row.
Bottom line it realy hard to make it work. But it you can it realy cool. If you in party full of muts it is good, if you are 3 rd caster in the Party it cool. I played Ranger 7 Bard 5 MT 8 and it was fun but we use farctional rules for BaB and saves it helped greatly so i end with +14.75 BaB at level 20. I was still able to fight with weapons.
Arcane Strike (Combat)
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level
I fond it loop hole +1 damage every 5 caster level you have. Well a Cleric 3 / Wizrd 3 MT 7 20 caster level at 13 so he get +5 faster.
The most powerful character I played in 3.5 was a Mystic Theurge, haven't tried one in PFRPG yet. Was able to take a feat for multi-classing casters twice, once for Cleric and once for Wizard to keep the Caster Level the same as my character level, and IMHO that over-powered the PC; there wasn't any situation that came up that I didn't have a spell for, and therein lies the real strength of a Mystic Theurge.
For a Druid (Menhir Savant archetype) I played recently in PFRPG I was first debating Mystic Theurge by multiclassing with Wizard (friend was running a campaign where Cleric wasn't allowed) but decided straight Druid was better for the things I had in mind for the character.
Instead of MT you may want to look into the Pathfinder Savant PRC, while it doesn't have the same insane amount of spell options available you would be able to dabble in Wizard spells without losing any Caster Level (if that's even a worry - one player in a 3.5 game I ran had a necro-themed MT without those "boost multi-class CL" feats I took when a later book came out and didn't have many problems with the -3 CL per casting class).
My best advice for anyone who wants to play a MT is to try really hard to convince your dm to let you play the Super Genius Games Magister (available on pfd20srd as magister, called the Magus if you get the pdf from here at paizo). Does what you want, does it without the jumbled mess of multiclassing primary casters, and has some coold abilities to go with it.
I would *LOVE* to be able to make this work, but every way I've tried, and every thread I've read always ends up the same: you'll be terribad.
Ignore them.they're all focused on winning DPR matches on playing the game the way a single classed character would.
Focus on the reasons WHY you want to build such a character. There are good and valid roles for a Mystic Theurge to play but uou can't play the game of the single classed caster, you have to redefine your own.
+1
I agree with the focus on buffs suggestion. You can be a cool party support character--just make sure you want to play party support!
For feats, I'd really just go with what you feel works for you -- metamagic can always be helpful; a buffer can do well with Extend Magic. If you wanted you could also take some channel boosts--your channel energy will stop advancing once you prestige, so boosting its output with a feat in some way could help keep it useful (if you can't find another feat to use). I also agree with the suggestion to take some item creation feats---mystic theurges are in a unique spot to really make just about anything, more than anyone else.
I know you want to do a cleric/wizard, but I've been playing with a weird idea of doing cleric/bard/MT for a buffer/support type. You'll have to be bard 4/cleric 3 before prestiging. The benefits to this is that before prestiging, you will remain consistently a 3/4 BAB class (helpful for boosting succeeding on those touch attacks) and you can wear light armor and even a buckler (with some limitations) and cast away with all your spells--not that you'll be a combat focused character, but being hard to hit while you're spamming spells is good. Of course, bard spells don't go up as high but they've got some cool stuff higher up on their list, and you also get more skills and performances--other ways to support the party in case you end up in a dead magic zone or something. You could probably do something similar with magic.
Cleric and wizard are fine though--just be sure you pick schools and domains that have good abilities that are useful out of the box at low levels, because you're not going to advance them for a long while past 3rd level, if at all. The travel domain is great because you get that solid 10 feet of movement per round, don't have to worry about that advancing.
MTs get tons of spells per day, but suffer from two big disadvantages:
still be casting long after a single-classed caster has run dry.
Pretty sure that the numbers don't really bear this out, though it has been a long time since I've run them across multiple levels.
Looking at (drawing from a hat) an 8th level MT vs. an 8th level wizard, assuming the Mt has 18s in both casting casts and the wizard has a single 20, you end up with a difference of only three spells per day in favor of the MT.
8th level though would seem to be a fairly good level for the MT in that matchup, given it is only one level of spells behind. At 9th the wizard picks up a second level of spells on him (5th vs. 3rd) and probably buffs his int score another couple points.
Finally IF your GM uses eclectic training and esoteric training from innser sea magic... Go with wizard 6/cleric 4/MT 10 with your +3 class going cleric and your +1 class going wizard giving you 9th level spells in each (at 20).
This has me greatly intrigued.
So much so that I asked the DM if guild rules are available in our campaign. With the impending mythic rules playtest, we'll be doing great deeds anyway; may as well be earning street cred with muggles and gods alike.It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.
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It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.
Not any more then a single class caster. Action economy prevents you from doing every thing at one time. Along with the fact that the differences in spell level from 8 to 9 is huge. I have played a lot of high level games. I can tell you missing out on level 9 spells for any caster is a huge lose. It dose not matter how many spells you can cast. It is a matter of what spells you can cast.
My advice is the same for any one wanting to play a MT. Witch can do the same things, and do them better.
Witch (Hedge Witch)
Patron: Healing
It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.Not any more then a single class caster. Action economy prevents you from doing every thing at one time. Along with the fact that the differences in spell level from 8 to 9 is huge. I have played a lot of high level games. I can tell you missing out on level 9 spells for any caster is a huge lose. It dose not matter how many spells you can cast. It is a matter of what spells you can cast.
Well, you skipped the most important part: the guild rules allowing for double 9's. A long climb, but you WOULD get there.
Edit: And Witchs can't cast magic missile or fireball; call me old fashioned, but you're not a real arcane caster without those two spells.
But a Witch is a tolerable MT in a can, yes.
I think the best Mystic Theurge is a Samsaran Wizard that takes the Pathfinder Savant Prestige Class.
That's 6 Arcane Spells not on the Wizard's Spell List which lets you pick up Heal, Resurrection, Raise Dead, Good Hope, Bard's Escape, and more from the Bard and Witch spell lists.
And then you get 6 spells on ANY list which lets you pick up other Cleric spells you couldn't snatch with the Samsaran.
It's not exactly the same as just having the dual spell lists, but the advantages are that you only lose 1 caster level instead of 3, letting you grab level 9 spells at level 18. You also only have to focus on INT making you a lot less MAD.
I'm sure that the opposite works as well, starting off as a Cleric Samsaran and moving into Pathfinder Savant later on, but I'm not sure that the other Divine Spell Casting Classes grant the same options that the Arcane Classes have, unless your DM lets you pull spells from Domains with your Samsaran Mystic Past Life feature.
Another alternate option to Mystic Theurge that I like is using a new Oracle archetype from the ARG. An Elven Oracle (Ancient Lorekeeper) with the Haunted Curse to be precise. You can still pick whatever Mystery you desire to help round out the character.
Ancient Lorekeeper replaces whatever bonus spells you get with any wizard/sorcerer spells of your choice, but they are treated as 1 level higher (IE you cast Fireball as a 4th level spell).
The Haunted Curse eventually gives you 6 specific arcane spells that aren't usually on your list. The good thing is that many of these are pretty awesome (Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Levitate, Minor Image, Telekinesis, and Reverse Gravity).
The obvious downside to this build is that Evles don't give the Cha bonus, and that most of your "arcane" spells take up a one level higher spell slot. Of course this is offset by the fact that you only need 1 caster stat, that you have almost complete control over your Mystery spells, and that your Oracle spell casting and Revelations will never fall behind.
Samsaran Wizard...is that something from 3.5?
Our campaign is core only; the DM doesn't even allow 3rd party Pathfinder.
Samsaran is a race in Pathfinder if you look at either the Advanced Race Guide (Core) and the Dragon Empires. It is Pathfinder AND Core.
Another alternate option to Mystic Theurge that I like is using a new Oracle archetype from the ARG. An Elven Oracle (Ancient Lorekeeper) with the Haunted Curse to be precise. You can still pick whatever Mystery you desire to help round out the character.
Ancient Lorekeeper replaces whatever bonus spells you get with any wizard/sorcerer spells of your choice, but they are treated as 1 level higher (IE you cast Fireball as a 4th level spell).
The Haunted Curse eventually gives you 6 specific arcane spells that aren't usually on your list. The good thing is that many of these are pretty awesome (Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Levitate, Minor Image, Telekinesis, and Reverse Gravity).
The obvious downside to this build is that Evles don't give the Cha bonus, and that most of your "arcane" spells take up a one level higher spell slot. Of course this is offset by the fact that you only need 1 caster stat, that you have almost complete control over your Mystery spells, and that your Oracle spell casting and Revelations will never fall behind.
Now THIS looks promising...time to check the ol' SRD hehe.
"The following oracle mysteries complement the ancient lorekeeper archetype: Lore, Nature, Waves, Wind; Ancestor, Time, Wood."
I take that to mean they *can't* be Oracles of Battle, or is this more a flavor suggestion?
Flavor suggestion
Flavor suggestion
Impressive, most impressive.
I think this will help me pull off the other build I was proposing in the other thread.It could also be used to pull off the 'fighter/mage/thief' build people were talking about with a dip or two as well.
It won't be flawless, and still a bit MAD...but effective, nonetheless.
I didn't start this thread, but it solved a problem I've been grappling with for a LONG time...thanks.