So I've heard this (or read on here a couple times) that improved and/or greater feint is a trap for rogues.
I can't see where getting sneak attack for every attack is a bad thing...
Is it that it's a feat heavy tax tree?
I'm running a rogue in a homegrown where we've just become the proud owners of a decrepit pirate ship.
Any other builds that might fit this theme?
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Lack of a full attack. Multiple attacks, means multiple sneak attacks.
Feint eats up actions.
Also, when feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible.
In this player's opinion, it very much depends on the campaign and on your party. A "lone wolf" rogue will only very rarely gain sneak attack opportunities after round 1 without the ability to feint as a move action.
Having the option to sneak attack without having to flank is a damned handy option to have. Would I base a build around it? No. But I'd rather make one sneak attack than a full round of "regular" attacks.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
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Improved and/or greater feint are, but improved two-weapon feint only eats a single attack and 2 feats you normally wouldn't pick up. Yeah, it seems like a lot, but your opponent is flat-footed for your remaining attacks and you don't need to rely on anyone else for sneak attacks.
Yah, i'm a fan of the Combat Expertise > Improved Feint > Improved Two-Weapon Feint course, myself. Best of both worlds... or as close as I can get in the rules right now for a two-weapon rogue.
The Greater Feint path is a pool into which you throw feats. Combat Expertise is almost worthless for you. If you are going to take a penalty to hit, you might as well just take the total defense action. With Improved Feint, you are still only getting one attack per round and you cannot move even 5 feet. The mobility loss means you probably won't be getting sneak attack much more often than if it were your standard. Greater feint is only good for you if you can somehow get another attack before the start of your next turn. If you do not think you will get flanking from your group, you can go this route, but it is a really terrible use of your feats and a poor overall way to do damage.
Better option? Boost your acrobatics and get on the other side of your enemies. Battlefield mobility and flanking are your real friends here.
Improved Two Weapon Feint people, see my arguments for the first two feats in that tree. You won't even be eligible for this feat until level 8, so you will probably pick it up at 9. That is a long time to suck. If you are going to wait that long, take Leadership at level 7 and get a guy with plate and a tower shield. His AC should be great and he can flank with you. Anyway, that's my two copper.
Why choose? Do both!
I am annoyed that there is the Combat Expertise feat tax, and I genrally don't love the idea of being reduced to a single sneak attack.
But, as it's been said before, flanking doesn't gurantee sneak attack on a handful of opponent types, nor can you always gain a solid (and not suicidal) flanking position.
Like I said, I hate the feat tax, but if the name of the game is getting consistent sneak attacks, these feats are good options to have. Plus, Leadership and Boots can be had on top of those three feats I mentioned.
It is not a trap. It is a solid option that unfortunately has been superseded by other options. Well, Greater Feint isn't so good unless you can feint as a swift action.
The main count against it is that it takes up your actions, but a nearly guaranteed sneak attack is still nice. Remember, the rogue's damage potential is based on if he can sneak attack. Getting the ability to make full attack sneak attacks is extremely powerful, and really isn't meant to be the norm. So a single sneak attack is still just fine.
Plus, if you can feint at range, it's one of the better options for ranged rogues. It's a bit ambiguous, so ask your GM.
I usually link to my replacement for sneak attack in these threads, so here you go! If it interests you, ask your GM about it :)
There are easier, and more reliable ways to get sneak attack.
Please expound?
The problem this character is encountering is that the remainder of the party is primarily ranged. So I could hide until they get assaulted I guess and then flank but that seems a little asshat-ish?
The character will be a swashbuckly pirate figure so will be in base to base quite a bit. Would like those extra d6's to kick in.
The feat tree of Combat Expertise > Improved Feint > Improved Two-Weapon Feint doesn't seem to take into account that you also need to have two-weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting (and per PFSRD also might need two weapopn feint as well)
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A lot of people don't like Greater Feint, but I want to speak in its defense. If what you're after is maximizing your own individual awesoemness, Greater Feint is a trap and you should never take it. But as a party buff, it can be spectacular. High level foes can often have Dex and dodge bonuses to AC in excess of 4-6. Giving your whole group an effective +6 or more to hit on every attack before your next turn is well worth a move action. It doesn't help against big lumbering things, but against really agile foes it can make the whole group love you.
Yah, i'm a fan of the Combat Expertise > Improved Feint > Improved Two-Weapon Feint course, myself. Best of both worlds... or as close as I can get in the rules right now for a two-weapon rogue.
Speaking of this, I have to wonder why Improved Two-Weapon Feint doesn't have the regular Two-Weapon Feint feat as a prerequisite. That just seems odd.
Yah, i'm a fan of the Combat Expertise > Improved Feint > Improved Two-Weapon Feint course, myself. Best of both worlds... or as close as I can get in the rules right now for a two-weapon rogue.Speaking of this, I have to wonder why Improved Two-Weapon Feint doesn't have the regular Two-Weapon Feint feat as a prerequisite. That just seems odd.
Just a mistake :)
I've wondered the same thing
Ahh, see I missed that the Two Weapon Feint and Improved Two Weapon requirements. This means that the Improved Two Weapon Feint tree has Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Two Weapon Feint as prerequisites. Five feats. And you still need to wedge Weapon Finesse in there somewhere unless you blow a Talent on it.
Forget this, man. Make a strength-based rogue with Dex secondary and take Power Attack. One feat. Or better still, forget combat and be an awesome skill monkey. They always need those on ships. If none of your allies are going to be melee - a reasonable choice on a ship - you do not want to be out there alone. Lets presume you did go with this expensive feint train, what happens when a rogue is the only person in melee? You die.
Yah, if you're the only melee guy, your feats might be better spent making sure you survive as the only decent melee stand-in.
I was going to pick up Improved Disarm since I already need Combat Expertise. It seems fluffy and Swashbuckly and, with out a weapon, a lot of bad guys will be up a creek.
yea or nay?
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I was going to pick up Improved Disarm since I already need Combat Expertise. It seems fluffy and Swashbuckly and, with out a weapon, a lot of bad guys will be up a creek.
yea or nay?
It's tough to make the CMB check with 3/4 BAB, and you need a seperate feat (Agile Maneuvers) to use your Dex for combat maneuvers. It'll be great when it works but expect to need pretty good rolls to pull it off against any major bad guy.
It's tough to make the CMB check with 3/4 BAB, and you need a seperate feat (Agile Maneuvers) to use your Dex for combat maneuvers. It'll be great when it works but expect to need pretty good rolls to pull it off against any major bad guy.
It is hard even with Agile Maneuvers. You could use feint here to get rid of their Dexterity bonuses to CMD, but if you use it as a move, the enemy needs to be adjacent to you.
This adds two more feats to the group you need. What level are you starting at, BltzKrg242?
Basically what Cheapy said. There are better options for getting your sneak attack, but feinting isn't a trap, it's simply not your best choice.
It depends on the game.
If you never get iterative attacks, feint isn't a trap. I used it heavily with my rogue until I started to get iteratives. Then it became dead weight. However, I was heavily invested in bluff and in a campaign that I was mostly opposing other humans so I didn't have to worry about penalties.
If you mostly play at low level, feint can be a very useful way to get your sneak attack if you don't have a flank buddy.
I've got a ninja who specializes in Bluff and Disguise, so Improved Feint was a natural fit for me. At level 5, I should have +16 to Bluff. Of course, he's not optimized for combat, and I plan to take him into the Master Spy PrC eventually.
Yah, i'm a fan of the Combat Expertise > Improved Feint > Improved Two-Weapon Feint course, myself. Best of both worlds... or as close as I can get in the rules right now for a two-weapon rogue.
You don't actually need Improved Feint to get Improved TW-Feint, unless there was an errata I missed.
I've played a half-Orc, Bluff maxed through Trait and Skill Ranks. He had CE and then Improved Feint as a Rogue Talent at level 2. It's only two feats, and the 'feat tax' of CE opens up Improved Dirty Trick (which I also enjoy).
He was often Sneak Attacking (and Power Attacking at level 3). Bluff at level 2 = +7. And remember that there is no penalty for failing the Feint/Bluff check at low levels.
With 20 point buy I would build him with 15,14,14,13,12,12. I think this is a viable build from level 2 till at least level 8 when the rogue get BAB +6/+1. Not a completely optimised build build fun and viable at low levels.
Even then, it means as he moves in to the opponent he can sneak attack with Feint, and in the next round he can be flanking or using Gang Up. By level 8 he will have built up his other feats and Rogue Talents.
It not a trap. It just going the left side of the box to get other conner instead or the righ side.
The way I look at it is plan
A) Dodge, Mobilty, Spring Attack 3 feats can not get till level 5 as rouge Bab +4 and DEX 13.
or
B) Combat Expertise, Improved Feint*, INT +13 and 2 feats can get at level 1 as human or level 2 or with rouge talent or 3 feat.
Plan A is simple move in hit but it is only one attack then move away.
Your defence is go because they have to move to hit you back. low risk
Plan B is faster to get but risky move in risk AoO on move in then stay till next round to get one Attack vs there full Attack back High risk.
Plan A is solo play style when you when you look at chain of feats built off dodge. They all only help the PC who has them.
Mobility*, Spring Attack*, Wind Stance*, & Lightning Stance*
Plan B is team play style when you when you look at chain of feats built off Combat Expertise. They all help the party who has them.
Trip, Disarm, Dirty Trick*, Reposition*, & Steal. Due to the end result or the target.
The Feat that is need is Juke.
Juke Any time you successfully fient a target you recieve Dodge bounus to AC for 1 round vs that target equal +1 for every 5 that beat them on the sense motive roll.
If you class dip with Ftr (archer archetype) you can feint at range, so it is one avenue for being able to sneak attack at range. But it requires a 3 lvl Ftr dip. Probably better off with ninja tricks for invis.
This adds two more feats to the group you need. What level are you starting at, BltzKrg242?Started at 1st but up to 2nd now. GM is willing to let us adjust feats up to 3rd level.
Started at 1st but up to 2nd now. GM is willing to let us adjust feats up to 3rd level.
You are considering taking some useless feats to get some far future results. If you were starting at about 10, this might be even considerable. A lot of what you see above is mostly theory. I would ask if anyone has actually tried to take a feint rogue from one on up. I doubt they made it very far. The furthest I have ever played a rogue is from one to eight. That is a dangerous time for rogues, and you do not need to be alone in melee with several weak feats (Combat Expertise). Consider Improved Initiative and boost your Acrobatics. If you need to feint, just do it as a standard and do not sacrifice your movement. If you are standing still, you are asking to get surrounded and you do not have Improved Uncanny Dodge yet. Take Dodge to boost that AC. Power Attack to pour on some non-sneak damage. Get Leadership and a cohort. I know, you can't get it until seven, but that will still pay off long before the feat trees above. You are never going to be a great tripper, and it will take you two feat to get there.
The more I read and think on this, the "trap" part of the feint path is the illusion that a rogue can be by himself in melee. If you cannot flank, that means you have no nearby allies. You are alone, in light armor, with one or more enemies, and a rogue's hit points. This sounds like a deadly trap to me. That's my two copper.
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It's tough to make the CMB check with 3/4 BAB, and you need a seperate feat (Agile Maneuvers) to use your Dex for combat maneuvers. It'll be great when it works but expect to need pretty good rolls to pull it off against any major bad guy.I was going to pick up Improved Disarm since I already need Combat Expertise. It seems fluffy and Swashbuckly and, with out a weapon, a lot of bad guys will be up a creek.
yea or nay?
If you have Weapon Finesse, and are using a weapon to disarm, you no longer need Agile Maneuvers to get your Dex bonus.
I do have that (Weapon Finesse). Took Finesse Rogue as 2nd level talent.
Also has Combat Expertise and I did take Improved Feint...
Human obviously...
Improved Disarm for 3rd?
GM also willing to let us use an Archetype and willing to RetCon it up to 3rd... Should I take Rake Archetype?
Not going to be a lot of traps on ships... and would help make sure the Feint goes off...
Swashbuckler might be good as well so I can get those extra combat feats as needed?
Already using a Rapier so not sure what weapon I'd take. WOuld love to get a Sword Breaker dagger but it's Exotic and not Martial...
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I would ask if anyone has actually tried to take a feint rogue from one on up.
A player in my Serpent's Skull game played a human rogue with the feint tree from 1st to 17th without dying(until the very last battle). Now, this player plays rogues almost exclusively and is very good at squeezing utility out of the class - so I guess my point is that a very experienced player who is an expert at the class can anecdotally pull it off.
I'm still not sure Improved Disarm is a good choice. You might consider Weapon Focus or something defensive like Dodge.
There are easier, and more reliable ways to get sneak attack.Please expound?
Ninja tricks and Vanish, potions of vanish or invisibility, trained dogs or summoned monsters to flank with, the Dirty Trick maneuver (for blind)...