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What do you suppose the bardic performance rules mean by the following:
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% change to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
Just for reference, here are the rules regarding language-dependent spells and effects:
Many spells and effects state that they are "language-dependent." A language-dependent spell or effect uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or hear what the caster of a language-dependent spell says, the spell has no effect, even if the target fails its saving throw.
Do you think that the rules really intend for bardic performance (as delivered via, say, a flute or some other instrument) to be language-dependent? Does bardic performance use "intelligible language" in such a case, or can music inspire allies with whom you do not share a language? For that matter, can an animal companion benefit from bardic performance?
Thoughts?
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
If the Bard's performance is based on an intelligible language, such as Perform-Oratory, in order to gain benefit from it, the target would have to understand such language.
Thoughts?
In their zeal to make Bards potent and fun, Paizo has created a number of ridiculous situations - like the one above, or applying a bonus from a masterwork instrument to a Versatile Performance check.
Bards are a great class, but mechanically they cannot stand up to close scrutiny.
Thanks, guys.
How odd, though. Oh well; I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing anything (since I rarely do!).
I recommend that everybody FAQ this one. I think the language-dependent factor should either come out or be relegated to Perform (oratory) alone (although I doubt that every fan inspired by the Italian opera actually speaks Italian).
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
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Language dependant bard abilities:
Core rule bard
- Suggestion
- Mass suggestion
APG
Archivist
- Naturalist (and you are saying to your ally what the monster is and what he can do)
Court bard
- Satire
- Mokery
- Glorious Epic
- Scandal
Detective
- Careful teamwork
- True confession
- Show Yourselves
UM
Masterpieces
- The Requiem of the Fallen Priest-King (Oratory, Sing)
UC
- none
I fail to see the problem. They are all effects that require the affected creature to comprehend you.
Remember that most bard abilities in Pathfinder don't require a perform check. AFAIK only Countersong and Distraction use one.
It's an odd point that I bring up now and then. Yes, by the rules, instrument played performances are language-dependent.
Another oddity is the first line of bardic performance. It's a holdover from a previous draft, or 3.5. There are 2 uses of bardic performance that use the Perform skill. Many don't even make sense with what is often regarded as uses of Perform skills.
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Ok, but form most of the effects, with minimal exception, it is a reasonable limitation. Someone speaking in gibberish should be capable to kill you with his sorrowful or joyous tale?
That make a wind instrument a bad choice for your main perform skill, but, as you don't need to make a perform check for most of the bard abilities the problem don't really subsist.
The only performance with audible components where you need to make a perform check is Countersong, so you can have 0 skill in oratory or sing and still use them for a bardic performance.
Distraction the other ability that require a perform check, require a visual component, so playing a flute or singing will not help there at all. Curiously it say that you can use oratory for the check: " Each round of the distraction, he makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check.", a bit strange.
It's an odd point that I bring up now and then. Yes, by the rules, instrument played performances are language-dependent.
Another oddity is the first line of bardic performance. It's a holdover from a previous draft, or 3.5. There are 2 uses of bardic performance that use the Perform skill. Many don't even make sense with what is often regarded as uses of Perform skills.
Unless Paizo go to the length of changing that to Culturally based effect, I don't see how it can be changed.
Without the shared cultural background you really think that hearing a group of bagpipes whaling will raise your moral or reduce the enemy moral? Sure, the supernatural nature of the bard performance will cross some barrier, but most of the effect have a solid basis to be language dependant.
as you don't need to make a perform check for most of the bard abilities the problem don't really subsist.That's precisely the problem. It's not any skill check that makes Bardic Performances language dependant, it's their sonic component. You need to play the bagpipes in Auran to Inspire Competence in an Air Elemental.
The only performance with audible components where you need to make a perform check is Countersong, so you can have 0 skill in oratory or sing and still use them for a bardic performance.
Correct. So, somehow you need to know what language a creature speaks, and be familiar with that language yourself too, just so you can make your mime performance work its magic.
Really, the whole Performance skill has outlived its usefulness.
I'll agree this subject need FAQing. Sadly, don't be surprised if Paizo FAQs this up by adding more limitations to the bardic performances.
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Unless Paizo go to the length of changing that to Culturally based effect, I don't see how it can be changed.
Without the shared cultural background you really think that hearing a group of bagpipes whaling will raise your moral or reduce the enemy moral? Sure, the supernatural nature of the bard performance will cross some barrier, but most of the effect have a solid basis to be language dependant.
Yes, I would expect bagpipes to work regardless of a creature's cultural background, for the reason you mention; it's a supernatural effect, and the effects are explicitly magical. Second, all instruments work for bardic performances with an audible component. Yet all audible components are language dependent. Which means that to use any skill other than sing, you would have to somehow play an instrument in a particular language, which I don't think has any rules support.
I honestly just think it was a simple mistake to include the bit on language dependence in the section on audible components.
The point is that you don't need to use the perform skill at all.
You can speak, tell a joke, sing, make an oration, with 0 skills or 1 skill/level, the result is the same.as you don't need to make a perform check for most of the bard abilities the problem don't really subsist.That's precisely the problem. It's not any skill check that makes Bardic Performances language dependant, it's their sonic component. You need to play the bagpipes in Auran to Inspire Competence in an Air Elemental.The only performance with audible components where you need to make a perform check is Countersong, so you can have 0 skill in oratory or sing and still use them for a bardic performance.Correct. So, somehow you need to know what language a creature speaks, and be familiar with that language yourself too, just so you can make your mime performance work its magic.
Really, the whole Performance skill has outlived its usefulness.
1) the perform skill has other uses, it is not the engine of the Bardic performance, with the exception of Countersong and Fascinate;
2) You will give the same exemption to wizards and the other spellcasters?
A sorcerer/cleric/wizard ecc. will be capable to cast suggestion without knowing the language of his target? Command, Enthrall, Geas are all language dependant effects, they will get the same exemption?
A bard has the linguistic skill and a lot of knowledge skills and bonus, knowing what a creature is and what is speak should be part of his way of life.
In the first edition, when to become a bard it was required to take levels as a bard it was possible to affect animals with your performance, but from 2nd edition onward, the bard has become an arcane casting class and affecting creatures with which he isn't sharing a language require a special archetype or some extra magic.
Tongue is a bard friend.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
With her many skill points/lvl and Linguistics being a class skill, I do not see a problem with amassing all possible languages early on - and it's certainly valuable to know what the demon has planned in advance if you get the chance to eaves drop.
That said:
I also do see the intent behind the bard mechanics to differentiate them and how their magic works from any other caster; the same goes for her performance on an instrument: as a, say, Chelaxian, my taste in music might differ tremendously from the taste of a, say, inhabitant of the Mana Wastes.
Then again, mixing real world realism with a fantasy game has failed before...
THAT said:
IMO, the problem we see here is that these limitations and the resulting disadvantages are seen as hard coded rules with which the bard has to cope and which are enforced by the average GM.
On the other hand, the limitations a wizard has to cope with after his spell book is lost does not come into play, because the average GM will not have her monsters steal the spell book in the first place.
Ruyan.
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Greetings, fellow travellers.
...
On the other hand, the limitations a wizard has to cope with after his spell book is lost does not come into play, because the average GM will not have her monsters steal the spell book in the first place.
Ruyan.
Think about the witch. Her "spellbook" will always be in harm way, she can't make a copy of it and replacing it cost a good sum.
The one in my campaign keep a reserve found of 500 gp/level for familiar replacement if the need arise. At low/middle levels it is a good sum that isn't available for other uses.