I'm gearing up for mastering a PFRPG campaign in a few months.
I think I have a good grasp on the rules, having been a player in a number of PFRPG campaigns for over a year now (I played AD&D for many years before that).
Oddly, the only thing that gives me doubt about my capacity at running a table - mechanically speaking - is the "Archer DPR situation."
At present, I'm playing in the Kingmaker Adventure Path (beginning of Book III), and one of the players has a Ranger (Guide) character.
This character is now gearing up to do something like 100-150 points of damage/round, overshadowing all the other damage dealers in the group. Our DM (a relatively unexperienced one, rules-wise) looks ready to be overwhelmed by the situation. I'm sure they'll sort it out, though.
But this has been gnawing on me: I have read threads about archers' DPR and I realized that to sort things out with an archer character at your table, you need, as a DM, to have STRONG tactical mojo.
I'm not that kind of DM - yet.
So I'm looking for an alternate solution, and I'm wondering if I'm gonna deliberately nerf archers' DPR for my next campaign - like taking out the Manyshot feat or the Fast Shot feat.
What do you think ? Am I preemptively over-reacting ? Will my envisioned nerf throw the archer/melee characters balance in disarray ?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi there.
I had an archer (ranger archer) created in my game for the first time, and the power they have is quite impressive.
The key thing they get (from my view) is multiple attacks (as they can stand still), while "normal" melee types often have to move and thus lose their ability to do multiple attacks. It just gets worse when you add in many shot/fast shot etc. When archers get to add their STR to the rolled damage as well, that is when things really stack up. In the game, it is not usually the number of dice that cause problems (even though rolling lots of dice looks good), as they are self averaging - it is the fixed adds that really boost damage potential
In terms of reducing their impact....
1) Play the rules as written. This is key. If you fire into a melee, there is a -4 penalty to hit, unless you have the Precise Shot feat. Likewise, if there is someone (does not matter - friend or foe) in between the archer and their target, the target gains another +4 to AC (i.e. effectively, an additional -4 penalty to hit). This is countered by the improved precise shot feat. Note that the prereqs for this last one are fairly high, but the issue is that a ranger can select it even if they do not meet the pre-reqs.
2) Used range guys on your side - fight fire with fire
3) Have mobile bad guys who force the archer to move (i.e. treat them as a spell caster) - once they are forced to move, they lose all those nice attacks
4) Rules nerf:- disallow rangers from getting improved precise shot until they meet the other reqs
5) Rules nerf - declare that either comp longbows do not exist in your world, or they do, but they do not allow STR bonus.
6) Rules nerf - declare that when using many shot/rapid shot, STR bonuses cannot be added for any shot extra shots
Of course, the other option is to boost the other melee types - the easiest way of doing that is to allow multiple attacks even if they move...
Hope some of those help!!
Nerfs are bad. Don't go there. Just, don't.. You're the DM, you can do anything and thats a lot. For instance, you can summon monsters right on top of the archer. The guy wants to be a huge threat like that he needs to understand he's going to be the first attacked. Like attacked by other archers you put in your campaign for instance. Yes thats right, not just one but two, maybe more. You can do that, you're the DM. And of course theres any number of spells to deal with pesky arrows, come to think of it, isn't there a shield bonus of some sort that deflects arrows as well?
It was like this for magic users back in 1st ed. You saw a guy in robes in the back you capped him lickety split because you knew he'd slaughter everyone in the group if you didn't. These days its the archers turn to be in that seat so only the dumbest of your villains will be unprepared to suicide rush the guy. Naturally your main threat(s) will be behind as much cover as possible while the minions do their little dance with him. Lots of options for dealing with archers besides nerfs.
|
Kingmaker lends itself especially well to archers. Pretty much any scenario where you have open spaces and lots of room to maneuver allows that. Most adventures have lots of tight spaces for most combats so the archer is more likely to be cornered and targeted.
Rules nerfs are not necessary. Aiddar's first three points are very useful.
Arrows are defeated by several types of spells like wind wall and pretty much any spell with wind in its name. Protection from Arrows pretty much makes normal arrows useless.
The Ranger's favored enemy can be pretty powerful if they run into a lot of enemies of the right type and he may have taken the advice in the player's guide and picked just the right favored enemy(s).
Hi there.
[many good advices]
Hope some of those help!!
Yes, those advices are quite good. Thanks a lot :-) !
Vexous wrote:
It was like this for magic users back in 1st ed. You saw a guy in robes in the back you capped him lickety split because you knew he'd slaughter everyone in the group if you didn't. These days its the archers turn to be in that seat so only the dumbest of your villains will be unprepared to suicide rush the guy
Vexous, that's a quite interesting mental leap vis-a-vis archers, which puts things in perspective. Thanks for that.
You see, I'm used, as a player, to tackle magic-users in the adverse party.
That's part of the D&D "culture", in fact :-).
But I never envisioned archers like that. If we consider that archers ARE, in the game world, deadly, then it makes sense that the intelligent NPCs have learned to deal with this threat as they have learned to deal with magic-wielding heavies.
But I must remark that what applies to intelligent beings doesn't apply to beasts. Hence why the archer in the Kingmaker AP I mentioned is mopping the floor with the various beasties we encountered in the course of adventure.
That ranger(Guide) is the bane of all fauna in the Stolen lands ;-) !
EDIT: Also, ninja'ed by Karkon regarding Kingmaker.
Kingmaker lends itself especially well to archers. Pretty much any scenario where you have open spaces and lots of room to maneuver allows that. Most adventures have lots of tight spaces for most combats so the archer is more likely to be cornered and targeted.
[...]
The Ranger's favored enemy can be pretty powerful if they run into a lot of enemies of the right type and he may have taken the advice in the player's guide and picked just the right favored enemy(s).
That fellow player in Kingmaker is playing a ranger Guide archetype, which allows him to pick his Favored enemy a number of times per day.
As my DM is running a "15 min adventure/day" king of game, that makes that sort of character very powerful, i.e every fight's boss is his "favored enemy".
Generally speaking, I think that this archer(Guide) character is influencing DM mastery quite a lot.
Another train of thought: is "nerfing" inherently bad ? If I nerf something in my game, I fully intend to warn my players ahead of time, and to discuss with them said "nerf".
I'm not sure an archer with one less attack per round would feel unfairly picked on - 3 attacks/round for the most part of the combat sequence still feels powerful enough for me.
Full disclosure -- It irks me that the archer puts out more damage (DPR) than the melee guy while taking fewer of the risks. Just rubs me the wrong way.
That said,
It's your game. If you want to houserule stuff to better fit your sensibilities, go ahead. You've got be be clear about it up front however. It would really suck for the archer to get to level 6 and then find out you're banning manyshot. So think it through and make the ground rules clear ahead of time.
Full disclosure -- It irks me that the archer puts out more damage (DPR) than the melee guy while taking fewer of the risks. Just rubs me the wrong way.
Maybe I feel like that, a little.
That said,
It's your game. If you want to houserule stuff to better fit your sensibilities, go ahead. You've got be be clear about it up front however. It would really suck for the archer to get to level 6 and then find out you're banning manyshot. So think it through and make the ground rules clear ahead of time.
That's what I was saying earlier (but you ninja'ed me, it seems).
I intend to be as upfront as possible with my players, and that's why I take advice well ahead of time to make informed decision. Thanks for your advice, TheRealThom :-).
I get this vague feeling, generally speaking, that I'm not the only potential DM out there who is struggling with this death machine (my fellow player says: "mobile rocket launcher" ;-D) that the archer has become in PFRPG.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can weaken archery by having natural cover and sneaky enemies.
You can also randomize the weather. "Today, archers get -4 to hit due to strong wind and rain."
Remember, pretty much any combat maneuver will neutralize an archer. It's hard to fire volleys while disarmed, grappled, tripped or sundered.
Alternatively: Go straight Core Rulebook, use the broken ammunition rules and count ammunition.
Alternatively: Go straight Core Rulebook, use the broken ammunition rules and count ammunition.
Yes, those little things count sometimes ! I'm not sure the player in my Kingmaker party is scrupulously counting his arrows.
Resources management is a part of the game that I quite enjoy, actually.
|
Changing of rules can be bad, as players won't have the confidence to design characters, without worrying that they will be affected by some house rule you have.
Here are some advice on what you can do to tone down range attacks without nerfing the rules... too much.
1) I noted that one GM in a local campaign made Compound bows, exotic weapons.
This means it cost a feat just to use compound bows, preventing their abuse.
2) REMEMBER to make use of the environment. (!)
Fights don't take place in wide empty boxes. Setup trees, walls, pillars, and other terrain obstacles to ensure that NPCs get cover from range attacks. (Players can make use of these obstacles to get cover themselves.)
3) Like what Aiddar has written. Make use of range attackers too attack the party!
4) Duck for cover!
You don't stand around if someone is about to shoot you, so why should your NPCs do so? Get them Ducking for cover!
5) Surprise! Your party's archers with attacks from the rear, above or even below! Keep them on the move!
6) EXTRA Environmental effects!
Creeping fog, burning lava, crumbling floors and expending mud pools. Go Area-Of-Denial with environmental effects that don't let archers stay in one spot!
Hope all these helps!
I will try all of that. Thanks for the advice !
Got to admit. The non-nerfers have a ton of good suggestions that I should use more often.
|
First - unless you track ammunition, you are letting the archer destroy your game. Arrow count is the *only* way to limit the damage done, and it's built into the class. Just figure out how many full attacks he can do before reloading his quiver, and track those.
I actually like the "no Str bonus on additional shots" houserule, since speed is the tradeoff for power in actual-world archery.
Defense: Wind wall. Protection from Arrows. No spellcaster would go anywhere without these, and Protection from Arrows is IIRC usable in potion form.
Archers are, bar none, the most dangerous foes on the field. They should be treated as such. And frankly, even beasts should be able to make use of this. Archers have been around for a few thousand years, so any beast that doesn't instinctively charge the back guys has been weeded out of the gene pool already.
Remember, there is no reason you need to allow 15 minute adventure days, for archers or spellcasters or anybody else. Especially in Kingmaker - the AP is about exploring the wilderness, and specialized characters shouldn't be able to force the unknown to come at them on their terms. Use the random monster encounters, and follow the dice - don't limit it to one a day. Having a second or third encounter in a day will keep players on their toes, and also tax the quiver capacity of your ranger enough that he might "waste" a feat or two on being good at another weapon.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the real offender in terms of archer DPR is their ability to overcome DR. Most of the time, archers scale because they have lots of attacks and 2 good ways to beat DR, cheap arrows and Clustered Shots. Giving monsters back their DR helps a ton.
I always consider banning Clustered Shots.
As stated above, make them track arrows (though I only make people track special arrows).
Limit metagame knowledge of DR.
Other tricks:
If the archer has a normal composite bow and not a bow with the new fleixble composite enchantment, any strength penalty gives them penalties.
Bows are really easy to sunder, and sundering isn't as nasty as it was in 3.5.
To be honest, i have been DMing an Archer for a few months now and let me tell you it is a PITA. I have 6 players that all want to solid in combat, but unless i specifically design each encounter to somehow tactically counter the archer he will brilliantly outshine them all by not moving and just rolling a ton of dice doing more damage than the rest of the team regardless of their tactics, coordination and bravado.
This is what I fear as a DM: it's a little weird to have to design every encounter around, so to speak, one type of character.
Also, all the brilliant ideas of other players seem to be wasted by the de facto killing machine.Hmm, I might have to nerf (a little bit) the archer in my game, after all.
Come to think of it, is there a feat out there that allows one extra attack to a melee character - is there a Many Shot melee attack feat equivalent ?
The only one I can think of right now is the ninja supplemental attack capacity powered by ki.
One thing that can limit archers is having the bow strung all the time. If a bow is kept strung all the time it ruins the bow. Bows are normally kept unstrung until they are needed. Leaving them strung will cause it to lose pull.
In game terms that would mean its STR bonus is degrading. Maybe something like 1 STR per day it is strung for more than a few hours. I would say it is probably a full round action to string a bow, but at least a move action. That means the archer is going to lose at least one full attack.
Tracking resources is also going to help. A archer at full attack with Rapid Shot and Many shot is going through arrows like there is no tomorrow. My 6th level ranger goes through 4 arrows a turn which means the typical quiver holds about 5 rounds. Even a fully stocked Efficient Quiver is only going to hold enough arrows for 15 rounds. If the adventure does not return to town they will probably be out of arrows before it is over.
[... many interesting things...]
Those are just the lvl 1 sorc/wiz spells, and there are many more as you get higher lvl spells. For a wiz, I would go with a div spec and get the initiative. If the archer doesn't have his bow out you might even get a peace bond off.
Very thoughtful remarks about sorcerer/wizard types, Nu'Raahl. It's interesting that a few low-level spells (like Grease) can ruin an archer's day so easily.
One thing that can limit archers is having the bow strung all the time. If a bow is kept strung all the time it ruins the bow. Bows are normally kept unstrung until they are needed. Leaving them strung will cause it to lose pull.
Interestingly enough, the player whose character is an archer in that Kingmaker game has already mentioned the bowstring thing: that player is an amateur archer in real life.
He's of the opinion that to string a bow is a full-round action :-D !
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be honest, i have been DMing an Archer for a few months now and let me tell you it is a PITA. I have 6 players that all want to solid in combat, but unless i specifically design each encounter to somehow tactically counter the archer he will brilliantly outshine them all by not moving and just rolling a ton of dice doing more damage than the rest of the team regardless of their tactics, coordination and bravado.This is what I fear as a DM: it's a little weird to have to design every encounter around, so to speak, one type of character.
Also, all the brilliant ideas of other players seem to be wasted by the de facto killing machine.Hmm, I might have to nerf (a little bit) the archer in my game, after all.
Come to think of it, is there a feat out there that allows one extra attack to a melee character - is there a Many Shot melee attack feat equivalent ?
The only one I can think of right now is the ninja supplemental attack capacity powered by ki.
As long as you are being creative in your encounters, you won't have any problems with archers.
The "problem" usually starts if the focus of encounters is just to throw NPCs into the face of the party.Be creative! Fog, plants (those that kill you.) creeping over the ground and even (like what Nu'Raahl wrote above.) RAIN! Can all be great creative solutions to archers.
If you nerf the archer... then what about summoners, are they OP cos they can summon 5 times a day? Or Clerics, cos they can heal the party? Or what about Bards? Cos they got a ton of skill points?
The NERFing never ends!
Players WANT to be heroes. They want to think that "my character is just so cool! He can do... (stuff)"
If as a GM you take that away from them, you are really Nerfing yourself.
It is like your trying to lose weight, by not eating, instead of eating healthy and exercising.
Think outside the box! Make the game challenging without resorting to "nerfing"
Another thing is to have underground battles with very restricted lines of fire. Archers want a wide open battlefield with good sight lines. They don't do well in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. Some campaigns work better for this than others.
Well if they do have a comp. bow a little Ray of Enfeeblement will put them in a world of hurt for a short while even though its a 1st level spell, maybe enough time to get the minions into position to bring down the hammer. I know it made my PC archer hate life, well he had a bad fort save too.
Track the arrows. We would always forget to track arrows with our characters and that's what made it over powered. If the archer character is making 5 attacks per round (manyshot, rapid shot, 2 iterative attacks and a hasted attack), he should be out of shots in 4 rounds without a magical quiver. Also, utilize terrain more to give creatures cover or concealment. It doesn't mean you have to do it all the time, but do it enough that other people have a chance to get into position.
|
Lots of good ideas here. My most recent campaign featured an arcane archer, and he could easily put out huge dpr. Some if the things I did to counter him:
Concealment & invisibility. Can't hit what you can't see.
Hordes of mooks: lots of little guys that he can take out in one hit. He feels like he's making great headway while the real threat is hidden or a hard target.
Arrow hell: tons of guys shooting back. Until the melee types get stuck in, the archer is target one.
Teleporting enemies: surprise!
Non corporeal enemies: half his attacks are wasted.
Intelligence: Anyone who has fought him before or knows his skill by reputation will plan some method of taking him out first: usually by grappling or disarming (or in one case swallowing whole).
Granted, in the party I was running for, the archer was also the go-to scout/point man. (elf ranger type) That made things somewhat easier to foul him up for the first couple of rounds.
|
I don't think nerfing is necessary, because the game rules suffice to balance archery, but you have to use all the rules, including often overlooked ones.
* As mentioned, count arrows. It's not even so much the amount of arrows-per-day that'll stop the archer (you can carry more in a backpack); it's the action economy of quivers that run out mid-combat.
* Use the weather. Don't let it be sunshine and clear skies all the time; rain and wind make archery less reliable, fog basically stops it. Keep in mind that having (light) fog in the morning and evening is perfectly natural. It'll probably limit vision range to less than 60ft (that's being generous, but it's also a typical Charge distance).
* Use the darkness. Even with lanterns, even with darkvision, few characters can see beyond 60ft in the dark. Make sure you actually use these rules whenever combat takes place underground or at night.
Note that both fog and darkness cause concealment; that means two things in this case. The first is Miss Chance, which can be negated with Blind Fight feats. The other is that you need to Pinpoint which square someone is in through hearing, which is a lot harder. Read up on the invisibility rules for this. It's really quite a lot of work, kills your full-round-gattling archery style.
* Use obstacles. A dense forest probably blocks line of fire completely in much less than 30ft. In a light forest I'd still be surprised if you get a clear 60ft line of fire.
I'm paying all this attention to the distance after which terrain obstacles, or lack of light, or fog, block effective archery, for a simple reason. If enemies are close enough to charge you by the time they're in range, then archery isn't quite as risk-free anymore.
* High-speed monsters. While in general archery is good against "dumb" monsters that don't know well enough to target archers (like animals), there's quite a few animals that can really ruin an archer's day. Basically every creature with Pounce qualifies (leopards, tigers, lions, velociraptors, deinonychuses). Those creatures have speeds of 40ft and up, make a full attack at the end of a charge, with good to-hit and lots of attacks. But what's worse, is that they tend to have high initiative, high perception, and high stealth. Odds are that they win Surprise and Initiative, and that they're already chewing up the archer before he's even done anything at all.
* Stealth: monsters try to ambush the party. They want to attack during the surprise round, not spend the first few rounds of the combat running towards the party.
* Surround the party: don't attack only the front, where the other fighter keeps the enemy busy. Monsters attack in the rear too, so they can hinder casters and archers.
* Disguise, misdirection, illusion, invisibility: don't let the real enemy look like the real enemy. Illusions can make the goblin minions look like the real threat, drawing fire away from the BBEG. Also helps against casters; let them waste some spells on the less-important enemies while the real enemy gets in position.
* Wind spells: these are pretty harsh, and an archer player might complain that you're "taking him out of the game" or something like that. They certainly shouldn't happen all the time, but they're legitimate, and if NPCs use archers a lot you betcha that PCs will use them too. The answer to complaints should be: 1) enemies only use them if they know to expect archers, 2) everyone knows archers are just that dangerous, so you can't begrudge those with the means that they take steps, 3) get used to this happening from time to time; don't specialize your character to the point where one spell can render you helpless. Learn a melee weapon, or work out a tactic with the caster to bring down such wind walls, or learn how to move around them. All in all, wind spells are something that's used by enemies with good reason to expect the PCs to fight them, like a BBEG confronting the presumptive ruler of the Stolen Lands. I assume that at some point the PCs become celebrities and that their highly effective fighting style becomes known to BBEGs who study it and figure out what to do about it.
* NPC tactics: intelligent NPCs who anticipate a fight with the PCs will know that they need to neutralize the archery advantage. So maybe they attack in the darkness, or Sunder, or they cast Blindness on the archer, or any of the other tricks. If the NPC knows the PCs are coming, they're allowed to prepare. And if the PC is a one-trick pony, but also the highest DPR pony, then NPCs will be very prepared indeed.
* Generalized readiness against archers: archery just works in PF. So intelligent NPCs know that archery works. They'll use it themselves, and prepare to face it, because many NPC adventurers are also using archery.
In response to Secane, I must point out that only the archer types are giving me headaches in the tactical deparment (although many things I've seen here can be used to alleviate this headache).
I've no problem with clerics, bards or other melee types.
Like I said in the beginning, archer management does require a tactically savvy DM.
If I'm not tactical enough, it's better for me to acknowledge it and take simple measures to prevent the archer dominating the battlefield (like nerfing him a little) than letting him ruin my and other players' game.
But a lot of this has to do with DMing style, I think. One the many reasons that I like pre-written adventures is that they've been designed by tactically minded designers, who've generally already made part of the work concerning battlefield management.
|
|
If I'm not tactical enough, it's better for me to acknowledge it and take simple measures to prevent the archer dominating the battlefield (like nerfing him a little) than letting him ruin my and other players' game.
But a lot of this has to do with DMing style, I think. One the many reasons that I like pre-written adventures is that they've been designed by tactically minded designers, who've generally already made part of the work concerning battlefield management.
I can understand that. The AP you are using just happens to really favor Archers.
It would appear that everyone has missed the obvious...speak to the player.
Explain the situation and ask that they build their characters for flexibility, and not to specialise.
Design their characters with them.
I can understand that. The AP you are using just happens to really favor Archers.If I'm not tactical enough, it's better for me to acknowledge it and take simple measures to prevent the archer dominating the battlefield (like nerfing him a little) than letting him ruin my and other players' game.
But a lot of this has to do with DMing style, I think. One the many reasons that I like pre-written adventures is that they've been designed by tactically minded designers, who've generally already made part of the work concerning battlefield management.
Actually, Kingmaker is a great way to introduce weather effects like I did. There were times where sure, they were in plains terrain but it was raining or foggy. Or the time I rolled a tornado on the chart and it turned diplomacy between kobolds into a fight for survival as they saved each other and said kobolds. I actually prefer Dodeca Weather to the Pathfinder one, but both work.
Something that I never see anyone use is kneeling. You can kneel behind cover and get a +2 AC bonus against ranged attacks in addition to cover bonuses. Helps when you can kick a table over and hide behind it. And kneeling probably a free action, considering dropping prone is a free action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Reach Spell and Create Water.
0 level spell - fill his quivers with water and ruin the fletching on the arrows.
Brilliant ! And nasty... I like it.
Throw some Smokesticks - they don't need to target the archer, just block line of sight. Find anything to make them move on their turn.
Tanglefoot Bags and/or Alchemist's Fire require getting a bit closer but they take up actions.
Summon a Swarm and check his action economy: drop and later retrieve the bow, retrieve Alchemists Fire from pack etc.
Very few players realize the terrors that are nets and bolas :) Add in a mancatcher, and you have a fate worse than death... capture!
Since there are already so many responses, I will just give you my personal 2c rather than going right into RAW or some such.
Most of the campaigns I DM are about 70-90% of the combat indoors in some form. By this I mean that there is not always 100+ft of range for an archer to work with. My hallways always have turns in them, creatures rarely assault head on, and the players frequently find themselves ambushed by a combination of melee and ranged attackers when they get nailed by bandits.
As with any character, play to the weakness. We have a ranger in our Rappan Athuk group (just hit level 7!) and he is basically a switch hitter that never gets to actually switch. (He is far more useful to my earth elemental wizard as a damage sponge anyway) He never gets to switch because ALL of this dungeon so far has been indoors, with narrow hallways and odd shaped rooms.
* Use obstacles. A dense forest probably blocks line of fire completely in much less than 30ft. In a light forest I'd still be surprised if you get a clear 60ft line of fire.
I'm paying all this attention to the distance after which terrain obstacles, or lack of light, or fog, block effective archery, for a simple reason. If enemies are close enough to charge you by the time they're in range, then archery isn't quite as risk-free anymore.
This. Keep in mind there are strict limits on how far you can see even in many outdoor environments (like light forest, or jungle). These are built into the rules and are often overlooked.
