The Kingdom of Aeternum (Pax Gaming)


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Goblin Squad Member

Forencith wrote:

Good thoughts Nihimon.

Personally I would aim for:

1) Make positive contribution a requirement for access to any decision making ability, voting (which of course they will want).

2) Maximize transparency to all members.

3) Agreed if #2 at the exhaustive level is deemed impossible or undesirable. In which case, extensive compartmentalization imo offers the best defence to the greatest number of areas from any single security breach.

But you already knew that was my opinion...*grin*

What he said!

And it will be interesting to see how the game aspect of spies will work though...

Goblin Squad Member

3) Agreed if #2 at the exhaustive level is deemed impossible or undesirable. In which case, extensive compartmentalization imo offers the best defence to the greatest number of areas from any single security breach.

^This

Goblin Squad Member

4)Form a company with few significant collective resources. One that is flexible, adaptable, and generally indifferent to sabotage.

That of course will only be possible with smaller companies who are not trying to build settlements, but I'm just saying...

We've already had our discussions about what to do about people trying to infiltrate us, and ultimately it came down to move on and rebuild.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
We've already had our discussions about what to do about people trying to infiltrate us, and ultimately it came down to move on and rebuild.

Yeah, the ability to recover from loss cohesively is one litmus of a "good" community...versus a convenient one.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:

4)Form a company with few significant collective resources. One that is flexible, adaptable, and generally indifferent to sabotage.

That of course will only be possible with smaller companies who are not trying to build settlements, but I'm just saying...

We've already had our discussions about what to do about people trying to infiltrate us, and ultimately it came down to move on and rebuild.

You can make it harder, but you can't make it impossible. In the end if it happens you just have to be willing to dust the shoulders off and move on.

I want this organization and its possible allies to at least present a challenge.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
As far as the organization that I'm going for is going to be lawful evil. In other words, it warms our hearts to see good, strong, productive organizations. And it warms our hearts even more to help your organization grow stronger by savagely punishing the "weeds" in your lovely garden.

Would it really be Lawful to hide and sneak around behind people's back?

Goblin Squad Member

I don't see why not.


Make war with Pax Aeternum and you will know war, my friend. Of this, the last son of the Kel'gorian Tribe can attest to. For these hardy people weathered the storms brought forth by my forefathers. In the end, my tribe came to know Pax Aeternum, ceased were the trivial disagreements, and in the end a dwarf made a promise to a man. I was a victim of circumstance in their eyes. A young human babe, whose tribe had been caught in the worst times of revolution. Only he... I... remained. For that dwarf had promised a man he crossed blades with in times passed, but more recently found themselves allies against a common enemy. The dwarf had made a promise to my father.

Yet, for all the conflict my people had cast upon Pax Aeternum, they took me in and treated me as kin. Of respect earned with blood and steel, Pax Aeternum knew my people and treated me with that respect. That is why on the day I came of age and approached the crossroads that was Bellis, my pace did not slow. My gaze did not wander, nor did my heartbeat stutter. Though I longed to avenge the death of my kin, I was among the only kin I had known. The time for vengeance would come. Although, they would not see it this way, I have a life debt to those who have taken me in. One that cannot be repaid... ever. Aeternum awaits. From there I will strike back at those that have taken so much from me. I am the last son of the Kel'gorian tribe. I am Areks Kel'gorian of Pax Aeternum.

Goblin Squad Member

Björn Renshai wrote:
Blaeringr wrote:
As far as the organization that I'm going for is going to be lawful evil. In other words, it warms our hearts to see good, strong, productive organizations. And it warms our hearts even more to help your organization grow stronger by savagely punishing the "weeds" in your lovely garden.
Would it really be Lawful to hide and sneak around behind people's back?

Yes. Our society has its own, very strict laws. "Lawful" does not necessarily define which laws are being followed.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
Björn Renshai wrote:
Blaeringr wrote:
As far as the organization that I'm going for is going to be lawful evil. In other words, it warms our hearts to see good, strong, productive organizations. And it warms our hearts even more to help your organization grow stronger by savagely punishing the "weeds" in your lovely garden.
Would it really be Lawful to hide and sneak around behind people's back?
Yes. Our society has its own, very strict laws. "Lawful" does not necessarily define which laws are being followed.

Now maybe my definition of Lawful is wrong but from what I have read it isn't necessarily just about following the law.

Core Rulebook wrote:
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability.

So the honorable and trustworthy bit it is what I was talking about. It doesn't make sense to me, can you explain it?

Goblin Squad Member

"honor" is a very loaded word. But we're not thieves or bandits, so we're really not about preying on the weak.

And nobody is trustworthy to everybody. The most lawful good paladin isn't very trustworthy to a necromancer. But in the sense that assassins are not chaotic, in the sense that you can trust them to follow their own code, then yes, they are quite trustworthy.

Assassins are honorable and trustworthy first and foremost to their company, and secondly to their clients and allies.

Goblin Squad Member

Playing Devils Advocate for a moment.

The real strength of any organization is not really in it's physical assets or wealth but in it's human assests....and especialy in a game where those assests really don't "die" and can always work to rebuild anything that's taken away from them.

So probably then best way to mitigate the damage that can be done by an infiltration/spy operation would be have a decentralized series of linked organizations not neccesarly bound to any physical state or even any individual person or personages but to an ideal...one very simply and unequivicaly stated.

Such an organization wouldn't work nearly as effectively as one centraly organized but probably alot more difficult for covert operatives to "mess with"...as they would need to infiltrate not one but multiple organizations at the same time. I'm also guessing that alot of the information collected under such a paradigm wouldn't neccesarly be of high value since it would be pretty obvious as to how the organization would react to many situations given it's publicaly stated ideal.....and also for major actions NO ONE in the organization might know the details of what the organization would do until just before they initiated the action....

EG, the leaders of 5 of 7 units of the organization happen to be on at a specific night...they vote on who to fight that night among themselves. 30 minutes later the marching orders are spread throughout the organization and the members are on the march to the target.

For the "information brokers" it's kind of a lousy situation because they've only got 30 minutes to sell that information to somebody before it loses all value... and even for the client, by the time they get the information to act upon, there isn't much time to setup a usefull reaction.

Not that I've seen an organizations setup along those lines or am advocating such but it's an interesting setup.

I'm guessing Blaeringr's play in that regard would be to infiltrate enough of the leadership of said organization to actualy try to DIRECT it's actions rather then report on them.... but that'd be a pretty major undertaking given that he would need to infiltrate multiple organizations to a high level and figure out a way to make those desired operations seem to fit the ideal of the organization....and of course if they DID actualy fit/further the ideal...the organization wouldn't actualy be harmed by the infiltration. Food for thought.

Goblin Squad Member

Knowing building locations remains valuable far longer than 30 minutes. And if you have a contract on someone's head, whenever you actually know their location then that knowledge is valuable.

You talk about small organizations as if they were totally inflexible and built on pre-programmed AI. I don't even know where to begin on addressing those assumptions.

If you're selling bandits info, what does it matter what time you logged on? The bandits are on, send me a tell looking for something to do, I happen to know there's a shipment moving from X to Y, or an expedition mining over at point Z...we're not talking about about a government bureaucracy with miles of red tape, we're talking about people who can type out a 5 second message, or just speak over a voice chat client and update on the situation in real time. Welcome to the internet, Mel ;)

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think there is going to be any way to completely get rid of the possibility of infiltration. All you can do is attempt to lessen it.

Even though it relies on a lot of metagaming, I do like how it makes villains.. villainous.

But anywho, its no fun for anyone involved if organizations make it too easy.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
... we're talking about people who can type out a 5 second message, or just speak over a voice chat client and update on the situation in real time...

This is why I think any eventual solution to this problem must find a way to make external knowledge useless. If your character has to transfer a particular in-game piece of information in order for the bandits to find the shipment or the expedition, then the whole world changes.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:

Knowing building locations remains valuable far longer than 30 minutes. And if you have a contract on someone's head, whenever you actually know their location then that knowledge is valuable.

You talk about small organizations as if they were totally inflexible and built on pre-programmed AI. I don't even know where to begin on addressing those assumptions.

If you're selling bandits info, what does it matter what time you logged on? The bandits are on, send me a tell looking for something to do, I happen to know there's a shipment moving from X to Y, or an expedition mining over at point Z...we're not talking about about a government bureaucracy with miles of red tape, we're talking about people who can type out a 5 second message, or just speak over a voice chat client and update on the situation in real time. Welcome to the internet, Mel ;)

I think my assumptions are pretty sound Blaeringr....

- Knowledge is only really valuable to "information brokers" as long as they hold it exclusively (or relatively so). Once someone declares to the world, "Hey we're building here!" it becomes pretty tough for you to find a customer willing to pay for it when they can get it for free.

- Knowledge is most valueable to people when they have some ability to ACT on it. So your Window to make a proffit exists between the time you learn a piece of information and the time someone who might find it valuable can no longer ACT upon it. The shorter that Window is, the less opportunity you have to make a proffit. That's just basic economics. In other words, your "bandit" isn't going to want to pay you for information he can't use because he happens to be at his Mother-in-Laws Birthday Party....nor will he find it very vaulable if his window to act is 15 minutes and it takes him 30 minutes to get to the location he needs to be. By reducing the window in which you have to sell the information, it reduces your opportunity to proffit from it.

- The more it COSTS you to obtain the information, the more you have to sell it for in order to turn a proffit. However, the market price for said information is not dependant upon your costs, it's dependant upon the buyers perception of it's value. If a bandit thinks he can only make 20 gold from a score, he's unlikely to pay 30 gold for it. If it costs you 25 gold worth of effort to obtain that info, you are operating at a loss. Again basic economics.

Am I missing anything?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Blaeringr wrote:
... we're talking about people who can type out a 5 second message, or just speak over a voice chat client and update on the situation in real time...
This is why I think any eventual solution to this problem must find a way to make external knowledge useless. If your character has to transfer a particular in-game piece of information in order for the bandits to find the shipment or the expedition, then the whole world changes.

Actualy Nihimon, if I were running a chartered company (I'm not, so no one need worry ;) )..... my solution would be to publicaly anounce pretty much everything I was doing at the time I needed any sort of internal cooperation whatsoever to do it. Kinda takes alot of the "skull duggery" factor right out of it since it's hard to sell information to anyone that they can just get for free.

Plus I've always enjoyed RP-ing Blunt, "Lawfull Stupid", Niave characters.
It used to drive the "Cloak and Dagger" guys (both freindly and hostile) into coniptions when I would just publicaly blurt out what they considered "sensitive info" in the MUDS/MUSH's and RP Campaigns where I've played characters of that type. Was a ton of fun for me, actualy....but probably a good reason I should mostly stick to playing a "grunt with a big sword" and not in any sort of leadership position, if I go that route for a character in PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

@GrumpyMel, we have every intention of being as transparent as feasible. I really liked your economic analysis of the "information broker". "Lawful Stupid" just makes me laugh, in a good way :)

Another way to deal with the "problem" is to lure bandits to your shipments and expeditions. Heck, we might well find that it's worth paying someone to "rat us out" to bandits just so we can have some fun!

Goblin Squad Member

How much does it cost to know where a caravan is, or where a mining expedition is and the numbers guarding them? If you're already in the company, and the company can't keep it secret from the very members they need accompanying that caravan or guarding that expedition, then you tell me: what's the cost of me going along with the infiltrated company, acquiring whatever wealth I can on the expedition, and passing on the information to bandits about when the expedition is starting and where it's going? Not much of a cost at all.

Travel time limitations works both ways: yes the bandits need time to get there, but once the target company starts travelling there, it will take them time as well. And it will take them time to gather the resource they're after. and it will take them time to travel back. Either it's profitable for the bandits and the spy to work like this, or it isn't. Keep in mind what the blogs have said about the most valuable resources being further away from settlements in the riskier areas. That tells me that the expedition leaders won't get too much of a head start on the bandits. Heck, the bandits may even find the expedition is coming straight for them.

You've got your experience playing your lawful good fanatics, fair enough. Take it from someone who's played some lawful evil characters though: they don't just stand in the corner darkly cackling at their own plots - they go out and lead productive lives, obsessing over you far less than you obsess over wherever they're lurking. When they see an evil opportunity, they take it, but it hardly costs them anything to bide their time and continue on being productive in the meantime. I like to think of it as lawful-opportunistic.

Goblin Squad Member

@Baeringr,

I don't want to derail Aeternum's thread, so perhaps we should take the discussion elsewhere...

But the basic rule of economics is that EVERYTHING has a cost associated with it....so unless you consider your characters time/efforts worthless...

It costs you (or your minions) time/effort to get in the companies good graces and it's going to cost you time/effort to STAY in thier good graces. Not to mention if everyone else in the expedition takes a loss and you don't, it's going to start to look awfull suspicious real quick, so that's another cost factor. On top of that, you (or your minions) have got a RISK factor involved since IF your character is ever found out, or even strongly suspected...that character and whatever time/effort is put into building them is essentialy BURNED for any future operations...possibly with ANY company...as word may start to get around. So that risk has to be factored into your equations as a cost as well.

Finaly there is Opportunity cost, which is something folks always tend to forget to factor in. Meaning the time/resources you invested in doing X will net you some return but if the same time/resources were invested in doing Y instead and Y yielded a greater return for you...then that's an opportunity cost you just suffered.

For example it cost you more to be playing "Agent Provocatuer" and hindering the advancement of your infiltrated company then just playing it straight and helping them advance (e.g. your customers are paying you less for harming said company then you would make as part of said company were it doing well). Of course, the biggest thing I was trying to get at is the Opportunity Cost of infiltrating Company X as opposed to Company Y... unless you've got unlimited resources your are going to have to pick and choose which ones you try to infiltrate. Infiltrating ones where the return on the information you get is less because you have less time in which to broker it to the highest paying buyer rather then just anyone who happens to be around at that time is just bad economics.

P.S. Just because I like to PLAY "Lawfull Stupid" characters, doesn't mean I am "Lawfull Stupid."

Now if you want to take this philosophical discussion further, I suggest we start up a thread on it...so as not to derail the nice folks at Aeternum here.

Goblin Squad Member

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GrumpyMel wrote:

@Baeringr,

I don't want to derail Aeternum's thread, so perhaps we should take the discussion elsewhere...

But the basic rule of economics is that EVERYTHING has a cost associated with it....so unless you consider your characters time/efforts worthless...

It costs you (or your minions) time/effort to get in the companies good graces and it's going to cost you time/effort to STAY in thier good graces. Not to mention if everyone else in the expedition takes a loss and you don't, it's going to start to look awfull suspicious real quick, so that's another cost factor. On top of that, you (or your minions) have got a RISK factor involved since IF your character is ever found out, or even strongly suspected...that character and whatever time/effort is put into building them is essentialy BURNED for any future operations...possibly with ANY company...as word may start to get around. So that risk has to be factored into your equations as a cost as well.

Finaly there is Opportunity cost, which is something folks always tend to forget to factor in. Meaning the time/resources you invested in doing X will net you some return but if the same time/resources were invested in doing Y instead and Y yielded a greater return for you...then that's an opportunity cost you just suffered.

For example it cost you more to be playing "Agent Provocatuer" and hindering the advancement of your infiltrated company then just playing it straight and helping them advance (e.g. your customers are paying you less for harming said company then you would make as part of said company were it doing well). Of course, the biggest thing I was trying to get at is the Opportunity Cost of infiltrating Company X as opposed to Company Y... unless you've got unlimited resources your are going to have to pick and choose which ones you try to infiltrate. Infiltrating ones where the return on the information you get is less because you have less time in which to broker it to the highest paying buyer rather then just anyone who happens to be around...

Just as an FYI, I personally have no problem with you guys bumping..I mean having a constructive conversation in our recruitment thread :)

As long as it stays civil, sit a spell and have a beer on me.

Goblin Squad Member

Agreed, guild threads are about the safest place to have discussions that may wander across a variety of topics. If you were not discussing this, I would probably be happily digging up GrumpyMel's:

GrumpyMel wrote:

...a decentralized series of linked organizations not neccesarly bound to any physical state or even any individual person or personages but to an ideal...one very simply and unequivicaly stated.

Such an organization wouldn't work nearly as effectively as one centraly organized...

This one has me all tingly...As it is, I will save this gem for when the current discussion slows.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:

@Baeringr,

I don't want to derail Aeternum's thread, so perhaps we should take the discussion elsewhere...

But the basic rule of economics is that EVERYTHING has a cost associated with it....so unless you consider your characters time/efforts worthless...

It costs you (or your minions) time/effort to get in the companies good graces and it's going to cost you time/effort to STAY in thier good graces. Not to mention if everyone else in the expedition takes a loss and you don't, it's going to start to look awfull suspicious real quick, so that's another cost factor. On top of that, you (or your minions) have got a RISK factor involved since IF your character is ever found out, or even strongly suspected...that character and whatever time/effort is put into building them is essentialy BURNED for any future operations...possibly with ANY company...as word may start to get around. So that risk has to be factored into your equations as a cost as well.

Finaly there is Opportunity cost, which is something folks always tend to forget to factor in. Meaning the time/resources you invested in doing X will net you some return but if the same time/resources were invested in doing Y instead and Y yielded a greater return for you...then that's an opportunity cost you just suffered.

For example it cost you more to be playing "Agent Provocatuer" and hindering the advancement of your infiltrated company then just playing it straight and helping them advance (e.g. your customers are paying you less for harming said company then you would make as part of said company were it doing well). Of course, the biggest thing I was trying to get at is the Opportunity Cost of infiltrating Company X as opposed to Company Y... unless you've got unlimited resources your are going to have to pick and choose which ones you try to infiltrate. Infiltrating ones where the return on the information you get is less because you have less time in which to broker it to the highest paying buyer rather then just anyone who happens to be around...

Everything he said! With the way Pax is set up you would have to work for months if not years to be able to get high enough to be able to get to the good info, that MIGHT be sell-able. Will that be an acceptable cost to profit ratio for you? These are the things you have to think about... Not only with Pax but also other groups...

Goblin Squad Member

Now that does sound like a challenge. To clarify, I don't think its impossible or even improbable to dupe Aeternum. It just depends on what you are wanting to leach.

Goblin Squad Member

So a company's only going to send you on expeditions if you've spent a lot of time rising in the ranks? Unless the guild you're talking about is huge then expect all your expeditions to be very easy prey.

The best agents are those who blend into the companies they infiltrate because those companies are doing what the agent likes doing. So please answer this question: if I join a company and work for them doing task A and am not a spy but just genuinely working with them, then what is the cost difference if I were to progress from that to actually being a spy and still doing what I wanted to do before, but just passing on information when the opportunity comes up? You know, the same question I asked in my last post.

After that, you can answer the same question but sort of in reverse: what are the opportunity costs given up by not passing on information that just fell into your lap while you were busy doing what you would have otherwise been doing anyways?

As far as opportunity costs of company A vs company B, that's a pretty easy one to address. Both. Yeah, that's a bit of a facetious answer, but the point is we're a company whose main focus won't keep us frantically busy. Agent A will spend some time hanging out and working with company A, and agent B will do the same with company B. You don't want to over infiltrate because there will be diminishing returns like that.

As far as the risk you talk about: why on earth would i tell the company I wasn't robbed? Not that it would be an issue though. What kind of agent gives their name away to any old bandit? That's just asking for the bandits to sell you the name of the informant. No, the bandits wouldn't know the name of the character as our communication would be out of game. The price for info of that specific nature would include the cost of whatever the informant loses as they "fall" for the same ambush as everyone else. The bandits can choose not to pay the price, but then they lose an informant and get put on the assassins' heavy discount list.

@Bjorn You'd be shocked how little information is needed to cause harm. If you build a settlement, your lowliest members will know where it is. The only secrets a kingdom will have is where wealth is stored, but free access to your territory and a high perception skill will remedy that (eg. discovering hideouts). And the main info we're discussing here is selling info about movements to others who may like to ambush you. So I ask you, Bjorn, if you're keeping your movements totally secret from everyone but your highest members, how the heck do you expect to actually move anybody?

And back to Mel again: from what I am consistently seeing from your responses, you're really not thinking like a spy. I really think the comment about lawful opportunistic will fill pretty much all the answers to all your questions on this topic if you really flesh that concept out a little more. And before you argue that you were thinking like a spy: no. No - you thought it would make sense to disclose our identities to the bandits and tell them not to attack and loot so and so. That's a horrible idea. Definitely not thinking like a spy.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
So a company's only going to send you on expeditions if you've spent a lot of time rising in the ranks?

If you're talking about a Chartered Company, that has maybe 24 players max, then yeah, you're probably going to know pretty much everything they're doing.

If you're talking about infiltrating large organizations, then you're going to have to work your way up.

I would imagine PAX will be letting their sponsored CCs handle the when & where of most of the harvesting. I know TSV isn't going to be micro-managing the schedules of all of the sponsored CCs we contract with.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon, I love ya man but Pax is not spelled like PAX. We are in no way affiliated with Penny Arcade Expo. Our name comes from the Latin root word.

Goblin Squad Member

You don't have to know everything they're doing. Knowing about a single expedition is enough to sell the information to bandits of where it is headed, how long they will be mining X resource, and how many are going along.

It's certainly not going to be something where you're going to constantly have info to sell, but if we take Nihimon's example of a company of spies wit 24 agents max, then you're talking about 24 infiltrated companies and that one company of agents should have info on at least one expedition at any given time. It sounds, after all, like expeditions will be the main way a Kingdom gathers resources and grows...unless you're insanely good at trading, so I'd imagine such a company will easily know of plenty expeditions to exploit at any given time.

As far as years to really rise in the ranks, we've already seen that isn't so.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm unsure what the last sentence is referencing.

Goblin Squad Member

Dak Thunderkeg wrote:
Pax is not spelled like PAX

My sincere apologies, and appreciation for the correction. I usually make the effort to make sure I'm using words correctly - not sure what I was thinking.

Dak Thunderkeg wrote:
I'm unsure what the last sentence is referencing.

I expect he wants us to believe he already has someone who's risen in the ranks...

Goblin Squad Member

I was just wondering which society he was referring to, because right now there is only one in the top leadership in Aeternum, and I don't want to have to torture myself for information :P

Goblin Squad Member

Listen to Nihimon. He's seen firsthand the drama (and witch hunts) that can be caused by taking my hints on these forums too seriously ;)

Goblin Squad Member

I'm not worried, I was just curious as to where you were going. That and well, keeping the conversations moving.

I was tempted to make a topic on it but since Aeternum is currently hosting the tavern scene (we call ours "The Talking Head") :

What social elements does everyone hope to see in PFO as time moves on. We know the paranoia, the economy, warfare, etc tidbits. What about furniture you can sit on? Structures that operate as more than just nodes with information (Taverns, homes, streets, etc)? Is there a desire from the community for basic social fluff that was common in sandbox MMO's of the past? To what extent?

Goblin Squad Member

Being able to force NPCs to function as furniture!

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Blaeringr was pointing out that when you pick a second-in-command, that person will be filled by someone who currently has zero time.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Unless Blaeringr *is* Mr Thunderkeg....

peers suspiciously...

;)

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
that person will be filled by someone who currently has zero time.

is that what you meant to say?

Anyways, the only real point I'd like to make clear is that infiltrating to the point of getting at least a little useful information isn't all that hard and doesn't take much time. For some players, that will be what the game is mostly about for them. It's odd that I'm making this point so persistently though as that's not really my aim, nor the primary aim of my associates. It's on our shopping list, but I'm sure there will be better spies out there, and I'm sure they'll get a real poke and a tickle out of doing it too.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Blaeringr was pointing out that when you pick a second-in-command, that person will be filled by someone who currently has zero time.

Maybe zero-time in-game of PfO, but I highly doubt it will be zero time in Pax Gaming. You have to remember Pax Gaming is 11 years old... It isn't a new group of people that have only gotten together for this game. We are a multi-guild community spanning 9 games, with plenty of people who have been in Pax for a LONG time!

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
that person will be filled by someone who currently has zero time.

is that what you meant to say?

Anyways, the only real point I'd like to make clear is that infiltrating to the point of getting at least a little useful information isn't all that hard and doesn't take much time. For some players, that will be what the game is mostly about for them. It's odd that I'm making this point so persistently though as that's not really my aim, nor the primary aim of my associates. It's on our shopping list, but I'm sure there will be better spies out there, and I'm sure they'll get a real poke and a tickle out of doing it too.

Agreed.

Goblin Squad Member

Björn Renshai wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Blaeringr was pointing out that when you pick a second-in-command, that person will be filled by someone who currently has zero time.
Maybe zero-time in-game of PfO, but I highly doubt it will be zero time in Pax Gaming. You have to remember Pax Gaming is 11 years old... It isn't a new group of people that have only gotten together for this game. We are a multi-guild community spanning 9 games, with plenty of people who have been in Pax for a LONG time!

While it is true, this is starting to sound like a double dog dare. The truth of the matter is while we can lesson the impact, there is a real possibility our Freemen level members could in the future be spies, and those spies could become privy to some information.

Aeternum is too community minded to micromanage everything or work ourselves into a hysteria. We don't need to, we just need to be honest with the facts and lessen the damage.

Also while I don't mind the free press, this conversation is starting to become circular.

Goblin Squad Member

Okay well I will stop tempting them I guess ;)

What shall we discuss next?

Goblin Squad Member

Dak Thunderkeg wrote:

I'm not worried, I was just curious as to where you were going. That and well, keeping the conversations moving.

I was tempted to make a topic on it but since Aeternum is currently hosting the tavern scene (we call ours "The Talking Head") :

What social elements does everyone hope to see in PFO as time moves on. We know the paranoia, the economy, warfare, etc tidbits. What about furniture you can sit on? Structures that operate as more than just nodes with information (Taverns, homes, streets, etc)? Is there a desire from the community for basic social fluff that was common in sandbox MMO's of the past? To what extent?

^This?

Goblin Squad Member

This is a tough question for me because I have been here so long...anything I mention will just be redundant.

Still thinking...

Goblin Squad Member

Another possible topic, Chartered Companies will need to be sponsored by a settlement. There will be the option, I believe, to be able to be sponsored by the NPC settlements. This is how Chartered Companies will be able to exist prior to the first PC settlements.

So, with CCs already recruiting, what do you see as an acceptable give and take system for the relationship between CCs and Settlements? Obviously it is in the CCs best interest to defend their sponsoring settlement because if it is destroyed, so is their sponsorship...but what else?

Do CCs feel their sponsoring settlement should be able to have a say in the CCs recruiting? The Settlement is afterall being represented in the world by those they sponsor...

Should settlements be able to demand a tax or tribute in return for their sponsorship? Or...vice versa?

Related, what (if anything) should CCs be able to demand of their sponsorees?

Goblin Squad Member

I think largely these issues will need to be handled by the parties involved. In Aeternum's case we want our CC's, Settlements, and Kingdoms to operate as much like a unified body as possible.

It not only benefits the overall picture, but is a representation of our community aspect. In other words, many guilds, one community.

Goblin Squad Member

Well as far as should settlements be able to demand tax or tribute, I say yes. If they don't have reasonable rates/demands on companies they charter, the settlement won't last long.

Goblin Squad Member

That is true, but a tax on services and goods sold in the settlement might work better for that. I expect if we allow it, foreigners will be able to stop in and use our facilities such as the forge and/or tannery...or buy and sell from our merchants.

All of that should definitely be taxable at a set rate (and maybe we can even set differential rates...ie. 1% for residents, 2% for members of a sponsored CC, 4% for everyone else...)

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah money and tax rates will always be something we will have to keep an eye on.

Dak Thunderkeg wrote:
Dak Thunderkeg wrote:

I'm not worried, I was just curious as to where you were going. That and well, keeping the conversations moving.

I was tempted to make a topic on it but since Aeternum is currently hosting the tavern scene (we call ours "The Talking Head") :

What social elements does everyone hope to see in PFO as time moves on. We know the paranoia, the economy, warfare, etc tidbits. What about furniture you can sit on? Structures that operate as more than just nodes with information (Taverns, homes, streets, etc)? Is there a desire from the community for basic social fluff that was common in sandbox MMO's of the past? To what extent?

^This?

I never have played a sandbox before so it will be new to me. However, having furniture to sit on would be cool as well as maybe having housing that you can customize.

Do you think that they will allow you to have crafting stations at your place of residence so they you can craft while 'at home'?

Goblin Squad Member

Services and Goods tax would only be possible, if the developers added a feature that kept track of/deducted it automatically. Otherwise people would need to keep track of it themselves, and then just give the money to the community. There'd be nothing stopping someone from not paying it, or saying they made a lot less.

I think a lot of the income for settlements, will need to come from rent. If you want to have a store in or just outside the settlement(and therefore get the protection), you'd pay rent, depending on where it is. More for the Main Street/Market Area or near the main gate etc, less for some obscure backstreet with only a few homes and no other traffic. As well as a set costs to be allowed to sell on the market(Which could be waived for residents).

Maybe a small fee to use the (hopefully well patrolled) road between two settlements to transport goods. The two settlements would probably need to agree to split the profits and the responsibility for patrols, and be able to trust each other. They could either hire CCs or use their own manpower.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh good call on rent...

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