I have never seen a single person use these skills in Pathfinder. I'm not arguing they're useless-far from it. I love playing rogues and I love the potential these skills have. There's a lot of fun to be had by a rogue using Appraise to determine what to steal, and Sleight of Hand to steal it. However, the fear of once again leaving the rest of the party bored and sitting around while the rogue goes on his thieving run is what probably stops the Pathfinder skill-users I've played with from pursuing this path.
I just want to know: do people use these skills in your games? Do they use them like the above situation, or are there other ways you've used them or seen the used? I love skills, and I love these two skills, but sometimes I think players and GMs alike need brainstorming sessions to learn how to implement certain options, like little-used skills, in their games.
Design Manager
|
They both come up fairly regularly in low level Pathfinder Society Scenarios.... But in your home game it really comes down to your GM's playstyle. I've been in games where you wouldn't consider running a party without someone having them, and other games where they're just so many wasted skill points. Particularly Appraise. Appraise is really conditional, Sleight of Hand has a few different uses in and out of combat.
Currently low level dwarf...actually used Appraise to talk about a merchant's wares and gleaned a little more info than I strictly could have by just asking.
They both come up fairly regularly in low level Pathfinder Society Scenarios.... But in your home game it really comes down to your GM's playstyle. I've been in games where you wouldn't consider running a party without someone having them, and other games where they're just so many wasted skill points. Particularly Appraise. Appraise is really conditional, Sleight of Hand has a few different uses in and out of combat.
Do you have any examples? How did they come into play in your games, society or home?
I always make my players use the Appraise skill to determine the value of gems/jewelry/art they find. It's not like items sit around with pricetags on them readily allowing anyone to determine their worth. Sure something might be obviously valuable, but how valuable? Then again, perhaps it's just brass and paste gems, not really worth more than a few silver pieces as costume jewelry...
Sleight of Hand comes up in situations where the PCs need to sneak things into situations they normally couldn't (i.e. being searched for weapons before being allowed into a place), for pickpocketing attempts, or attempts to surreptitiously grab something without being noticed.
I thought that under "organized play" slieght of hand checks (picpocketing the townspoeple) was forbidden.
|
Design Manager
|
Most recently, I used Sleight of Hand in the Skulls and Shackles campaign to conceal various keys/weapons/etc. that I had "procured" so the captain and his mates didn't know that I pretty much had free run of the entire ship. I distinctly call a couple Appraise checks bing called for in the "First Steps" Society adventures, but as I was playing a fighter I didn't even try and can't recall the precise circumstances.
I know we had one campaign where our dwarven merchant (he was a rogue, I think) pointed out to the king that his crown had been stolen and replaced by a fake when his Appraise check revealed that the rubies in it weren't of anywhere near the quality of the ones in the real crown... And then used Sleight of Hand to conceal the key to his cell he'd stolen while they were imprisoning him on suspicion of theft.
Sleight of Hand can be used to conceal weapons/items/etc. on one's person as well.I thought that under "organized play" slieght of hand checks (picpocketing the townspoeple) was forbidden.
but not for pickpckets?
I don't think I've ever run a session where appraise didn't get used. Players always want to find out the value of gems and stuff that they find so they don't get ripped off selling or trading them.
Sleight of hand comes up less often, usually when someone wants to carry a weapon or item past a check point of some kind to enter a settlement or something. I blame myself for not creating other situations for it to be useful. If someone invested a lot in it I would try to think of more ways for it to come into play.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sleight of Hand can be used to conceal weapons/items/etc. on one's person as well.I thought that under "organized play" slieght of hand checks (picpocketing the townspoeple) was forbidden.
but not for pickpckets?
There are faction missions to
|
Design Manager
|
There are faction missions to ** spoiler omitted **Sleight of Hand can be used to conceal weapons/items/etc. on one's person as well.I thought that under "organized play" slieght of hand checks (picpocketing the townspoeple) was forbidden.
but not for pickpckets?
Yeah, considering how big PFS is on the "teamwork good, screwing your buddy over bad" thing, it's almost crazy how many faction missions involve doing something without your party finding out or catching you.
Once, I had the party exploring an ancient sunken ship. The cargo holds were filled with junk. They needed to use appraise to find the valuable objects hidden in the junk piles.
I thought that under "organized play" slieght of hand checks (picpocketing the townspoeple) was forbidden.
I wouldn't know. I don't play in organized PFS games. The question asked wasn't exclusive to organized play.
In a more general campaign, using Sleight of Hand is a subtle approach to taking stuff that most players don't bother with. Why pick somebody's pocket when you can just kill them and loot their bodies? That skill becomes more important in a campaign that encourages non-combat situations, or in one where a character is actually so good at sleight of hand that he would reasonably consider using that skill while in combat.
Dungeons and dragons and players picking someone's pockets (whether for a real reason or just because) always seem to go together...
As for Appraise, I am wondering from the GMs that make regular use of this skill, how you actually implement it? I mostly run APs/modules and I quite dislike spending valuable game time on minutiae such as purchasing equipment or pricing out the medusa's hoard. Truthfully once the party finds it I usually just spell out the gp value, at most I'll have them do some spellcraft rolls to identify items and what not and even then if they roll terribly I will still find a way to tell them yep its a +1 dagger you should probably give it to the ranger or whoever.
I will admit this is vaguely unsatisfying as with few exceptions treasure is loot rather than treasure (being something inherently exciting). Anyways I'd be curious to hear other GMs experiences in using Appraise and the role of treasure to your campaign.
I have... Although not successfully. My witch in Rise Of the Runelords thought that some crystal vials were worth millions...(Nat 1 on the roll with only a +2 bonus)
Although sleight of hand was essential to a different character starting a religon. Party rogue stole money from people while I was preaching, then he threw the money in the air to making it look like it was raining right as I said, "And I shall bring you wealth!" Took some high bluff rolls but it ended up working.
|
Design Manager
|
Dungeons and dragons and players picking someone's pockets (whether for a real reason or just because) always seem to go together...
As for Appraise, I am wondering from the GMs that make regular use of this skill, how you actually implement it? I mostly run APs/modules and I quite dislike spending valuable game time on minutiae such as purchasing equipment or pricing out the medusa's hoard. Truthfully once the party finds it I usually just spell out the gp value, at most I'll have them do some spellcraft rolls to identify items and what not and even then if they roll terribly I will still find a way to tell them yep its a +1 dagger you should probably give it to the ranger or whoever.
I will admit this is vaguely unsatisfying as with few exceptions treasure is loot rather than treasure (being something inherently exciting). Anyways I'd be curious to hear other GMs experiences in using Appraise and the role of treasure to your campaign.
I've got to be honest with you, I'm really bad about keeping detailed lists of the treasure I hand out too. I typically let the party make one big appraise check on the approximate value of their hoard and call it good. It (Appraise) seems to see a lot more use when we're running urban campaigns and the party is a low enough level that they can't come back and murder the shopkeeper without fear of reprisal if they find out they got swindled...
I once ran a thieve's guild campaign where the party's favorite character was the otherwise subpar dwarf bard, because that guy always found the traps, and always knew (via Appraise and Greed) what the best stuff to steal in a limited timeframe was.
|
Sleight of Hand
last sunday, my level 1 rogue rolled a killer Sleight of Hand roll to assist a Diplomacy check...
he tried to drink his associate under the table to get him to spill the beans, which involed spiking his punch without his notice. he rolled a 27! then, on the actual Diplomacy roll, he rolled a 1. nice. the DM spun it as we had a great night and partied till the morning and he told me absolutely everything but i woke up the next day asleep on the bar floor and couldn't remember a damn thing. meanwhile, while i'm sleeping in, my fellow PC, an Enchanter, followed up with the guy to try to get the same information from him, and needed a 15 to change his attitude or whatever. she rolled a 13...
...but, as the DM thought about it a second, he then ruled that she ought to be awarded a +2 to the roll because the dude was hung over. cha-ching!
I have a character with Appraise mostly as a background skill. He's human and I even spent the 55 GP for a set of masterwork scales.
It turned out that we were able to greatly simplify a puzzle by using that Appraise skill and those scales to weigh the assorted Macguffin Sticks to align their values based on other clues.
Another character (a Paladin) has used Sleight of Hand on faction missions involving slipping notes to people, and once used sleight of hand to replace the unholy water in the Temple of Asmodeus with holy water on the night before a major celebration. It helped that she already had matching glassware...
I have... Although not successfully. My witch in Rise Of the Runelords thought that some crystal vials were worth millions...(Nat 1 on the roll with only a +2 bonus)
Although sleight of hand was essential to a different character starting a religon. Party rogue stole money from people while I was preaching, then he threw the money in the air to making it look like it was raining right as I said, "And I shall bring you wealth!" Took some high bluff rolls but it ended up working.
Unless your using a house-rule a natural 1 on skill check isn't an auto-fail. There would be no reason for someone to think a crystal vial would be worth millions of gold.
I have never seen a single person use these skills in Pathfinder. I'm not arguing they're useless-far from it. I love playing rogues and I love the potential these skills have. There's a lot of fun to be had by a rogue using Appraise to determine what to steal, and Sleight of Hand to steal it. However, the fear of once again leaving the rest of the party bored and sitting around while the rogue goes on his thieving run is what probably stops the Pathfinder skill-users I've played with from pursuing this path.
I just want to know: do people use these skills in your games? Do they use them like the above situation, or are there other ways you've used them or seen the used? I love skills, and I love these two skills, but sometimes I think players and GMs alike need brainstorming sessions to learn how to implement certain options, like little-used skills, in their games.
Brox seem like dim-witted brute, but rilly smrt cookee. Brox go with pally to talk to duke right hand guy. Walk while talk. Case joint, eyeball shinies. Make bestest guess on shinies. Get taken before duke. Brox open "big fat mouf (dat what paladin say)" get throw in dunjon. Brox use big clawed paw to palm key. Sneak out, go back find shinies. Mebbe put grot-shiv in back of guard. Mebbe use choppa on duke right hand guy. Hide bodies at bottom of jakes wair no one look. Mebbe unlock dunjon for big-mouf pally too. Mebbe stand and laff befor unlock. make proffit, get job from Duke, make moar proffit
In reality, Appraise would come up all of the time, especially when trying to sell loot. At bad Appraise skill would probably mean you'd get ripped off all of the time, meaning 20-50% less gold (or a bunch of stuff sitting around, take your pick).
In terms of gaming, Appraise is a very unheroic and frankly boring skill to have, which is why you don't see it used in sessions very often.
Sleight of Hand is used, but it's the type of skill where the user has to be creative with it's use, which is why you don't see it used more.
In my groups it's usually the wizard who has appraise, something about identifying magic stuff and not getting swindled when buying fake components. Is that diamond REALLY good enough for this spell ?
I use it much more at lower levels. By higher levels I pretty much give everyone a defacto Appraise. I never really see anyone put more than a rank or two in it anyway.
Do you guys think it would be a more attractive skill if it was folded into Commerce? (Something like the standardization of Balance and Tumble into Acrobatics; Maybe it can get you more money when buying and selling loot or whatever.)