Which rogue talents are better than a feat?


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In my specific case I'm considering a two level dip into Rogue for my lore warden so a handful of the better rogue talents are less useful (trap spotter isn't as valuable if you have a negative perception due to low Wis.)

It seems like many rogue talents are once a day special actions (which all seem less than a full feat for me). Ki based feats or ninja tricks all seem best for a full rogue not a two level dip (or for a character who already had a ki pool ).

In PFS play guns are fairly restricted - so also less useful.

Any suggestions?


Honestly, Combat Trick might be your best option. Depending on how you want to play it, you could also consider one of the talents that modifies your Sneak Attack, but honestly Rogue Talents have trouble measuring up to proper feats.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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One of the best is the ninja trick "Wall Climber" (which you can get with the rogue talent "Ninja Trick"). It does not require ki, and grants you a 20ft climb speed (which if you look up the climb skill, you'll find that gives you a +8 bonus and lets you take 10 under any circumstances, and also keeps your DEX bonus to AC while climbing).

Another good rogue talent is called "Strong Swimmer" (or was it "Strong Stroke"?) and lets you roll twice and take the better on every swim check you make, ever.

Expert Leaper lets you always be considered to have a running start for jump checks, and lets you soften a fall by 20ft (instead of the default 10ft) with a successful DC 15 acrobatics check.

Rogue Crawl will let you move at half speed while prone, but more importantly, let you 5ft step while prone.

I guess a lot of the best/most unique talents seem to focus on mobility, apparently...

Grand Lodge

I forget it's name, but the talent that allows some skills to be allowed to take 10 on in combat are pretty good with the right build.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I forget it's name, but the talent that allows some skills to be allowed to take 10 on in combat are pretty good with the right build.

Sadly, that's an advanced talent, so a two-level dip can't take it.


The Climb speed might be situationally useful but it does have some limitations (only on vertical surfaces that are not smooth & doesn't apply to climbing on non-vertical surfaces such as ceilings etc) still pretty useful as any additional movement speeds can be pretty useful.

The Swim talent (Strong Swimmer) is far more situational - PFS play doesn't have a ton of opportunities where a swim check is important.

Indeed it appears that a lot of rogue talents focus on movement - which while nice seems not quite as valuable as most full feats.

Weapon Focus or Combat trick might be the way for me to go. If I ended up going monk & rogue (unlikely but a slight possibility) I'd also look at some ninja tricks that add useful feats like deflect arrows (but require improved unarmed strike)


Kind of weird to look at how useful and versatile Barbarian rage powers are, then look at the rogue talents.

Liberty's Edge

If you are going to keep going in levels of rogue and get sneak attack damage then I would look into Offensive Defense. For every dice you roll for sneak attack damage you and +1 to you AC as a deflection modifier. Stack that with Combat Expertise and you have a rogue that can tank.


If this specific character takes levels in Rogue it would likely be for at most 2 levels (to get a rogue talent, +1 BAB and evasion). If there were really good rogue talents I'd then consider the Extra Rogue Talent feat - but it seems like that is usually a downgrade.

Grand Lodge

I have always looked at sneak attack as a weak mechanic.

I wish there was at least one archetype that would replace the ability.


Depending on how your Cha modifier is a two level dip into Ninja instead of rogue might be better, as it gives you a ki-pool, even if all you'll do with it is get an extra attack out of it 2 or 3 times a day.

If you do that, Vanish is a nice trick which allows you to cross the battlefield without provoking AoO, or to get away quickly.

Obviously if Evasion is the reason you want to dip in the first place this isn't going to work.

Grand Lodge

Why the Rogue dip?

What kind of benefit are you looking for?


Trapspotter
Esoteric Scholar

Silver Crusade

The Pressure Points ninja trick will inflict 1 Str or Dex damage in addition to normal damage on any successful sneak attack.


I haven't decided yet about the rogue dip (I'm also interested for other characters in the future) but I was thinking about it for:

A bunch of skills as class skills + lots of skill points (INT is 18 so 12 skill ranks per level for a total of 24 skill ranks for a 2 level rogue dip) - making only Fly and Heal non-class skills for my Lore Warden which is pretty nifty as a result from dipping. Though the CHA skills rogues get don't much benefit my CHA of 7 fighter... (and his WIS is low as well so getting perception & sense motive don't help all that much)

Sneak Attack even if only 1d6 is still extra damage he will likely often be able to get as he is a front line fighter, has combat reflexes and maneuvers (likely soon including dirty trick)

Evasion - always a good thing to have especially on a front line fighter

But the drawbacks of lower HP, loss of two levels of favored class bonuses (i.e. 2 more HP most likely), loss of one BAB (not as huge a deal) and the general weakness of many rogue talents for dipping are issues.

I briefly considered the magical rogue talents paths but think a dip in an actual full arcane class would get me a lot more (magus would allow casting in light armor, orisons, 1st level spells, an arcane pool and much more.

Rogue talents that are based on a WIS or CHA skill are likely poor fits for this specific character (who has those as dump states)


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IN APG:
Positioning Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack, she can move up to 30 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity. The movement must end in a space adjacent to the creature hit with the melee attack.

Fast Getaway (Ex): After successfully making a sneak attack or Sleight of Hand check, a rogue with this talent can spend a move action to take the withdraw action. She can move no more than her speed during this movement.

IN UC:
Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

Terrain Mastery (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a favored terrain as the ranger ability of the same name, though the favored terrain ability does not increase with her level as the ranger's ability does. A rogue can take this ability multiple times, each time applying it to a new terrain, and granting all other favored terrains a +2 increase to the favored terrain bonus.

Honestly, the diff between a rogue dip of 4 and fighter levels as a Lore Warden is 1 bab, 4 hps, and changing 2 feats out for 2 rogue talents (which if you want weapon focus, finesse, imp steal or another combat feat via Combat trick, you can get those here) and adding 2d6 damage anytime you can flank, anytime they're surprised, and double the skills, along with imp evasion, uncanny dodge, and whatever other things you get from your archetype.

What race are you? Str or Dex based for the combat stuff?


This character is a Tiefling (Daemon heritage) and DEX based. Rapier focused at the moment. Has the fencer trait (+1 AoOs with blades), Combat Reflexes and Weapon Finesse. I'll probably add Power Attack soon and plan on getting an agile rapier in the future when I can afford it. All that makes his damage & to hit fairly respectable. W/Improved Trip he is quite decent between weapon finesse, magical rapier and the lore warden class bonuses to CMB/CMD.

Not sure I would take 4 levels of rogue - Uncanny Dodge is fairly situational and the fighter levels offer the option of getting weapon specialization etc (not to mention getting the Lore Warden archetype benefits such as increased CMB/CMD bonus etc. A 3rd level for the extra sneak attack might be worth considering.

Positioning attack at once per day seems very minor - yes you get some action economy from the extra move but the restrictions that you hit and that you remain adjacent make it quite situational. Terrain Mastery might be interesting - but also very situational. (might open up certain prestige classes but those weren't ones I was considering)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Rogue Talent-Grit gives you Amateur Gunslinger and the Grit feat of your choice for a single rogue talent.... That's technically better than a feat, though maybe not what you're looking for.


Since this is for PFS play in order to buy a gun I would also have to take the Gunsmithing feat (PFS makes it hard to build gun using classes that aren't gunslingers - I think all gun wielding archetypes are not legal for PFS play and the feat and other costs of adding guns to a non-gunslinger are quit high)

So for PFS play I would need to take:

Firearm Training Rogue talent (to get Exotic Weapon (firearms))

Gunsmithing Feat (to be able to actually buy a gun & ammo in PFS play)

and a second Rogue talent - Grit.

That said it is indeed a bit better than a feat.

(there aren't a lot of grit feats - so probably the Extra Grit would be the best feat to take - especially for a very low WIS character considering wielding guns)

To be at all successful firing guns I'd also have to take a bunch of other feats (Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim?, Point-blank Shot etc)

[multiclassing into gunslinger in PFS play is a lot better than trying to build a PFS character to use guns which isn't a gunslinger - but even then it adds a lot of costs & complexity to a character - could be very effective a fun but not right for this specific character]


Feats generally are the best option, as most rogue talents are much weaker than a feat.

That said, I agree w/ the above, Wall Climber is good if you don't expect to be able to fly for a long time.

Slow Reactions shuts off AoOs, that is always a nice option to have.

Terrain Master is only useful to a Horizon Walker, but for them it is astoundingly good.

If you expect to fight with other sneak attackers regularly, Distracting Attack is actually a great way to buff them, and is *especially* helpful to a sap master build. It just doesn't help you...

Grand Lodge

Barbarian will grant you evasion, and is superior.

Urban Barbarian will boost Dex, and sync better.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I have always looked at sneak attack as a weak mechanic.

I wish there was at least one archetype that would replace the ability.

I believe it is called archaeologist bard

Grand Lodge

Yes.
Bards are a better Rogues, but I was speaking about the Rogue itself.


I dunno. I actually like rogues. I do think that the archaeologist is really a rogue that traded SA and 2 skill pts for spells, that is all.

Grand Lodge

Unfortunately, most things done by a Rogue, are done better by another class.


Barbarians do not get evasion (monks do). The urban barbarian also does not get fast movement but does get the situationally useful crowd control and the rage that allows for int based skills but at the cost of many of the benefits of rage (con bump and bonus on will saves) though the lack of AC penalty is nice.

But mostly the barbarian doesn't really fit this character or my play style - this character is not chaotic.

Grand Lodge

Dammit, I was thinking Ranger.


Slow Reaction is the best Rogue Talent for upgrading your Sneak Attack if other members of the party want to perform combat maneuvers without taking the feat that removes the AoO provoked by said maneuvers.


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well... i think either presure points or the talent that caue -2 to opponent Vs you for 1d4 rounds after being sneaked.
combine this with thug (sickened) and intimidate...its -6 Vs you -4 Vs all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

When you can take the punishment positioning attack is good to open and get into flanking position with someone else.

If not befuddling strike is quite usefull.
Of course a reliable way to get a sneak attack several times in a fight like dirty trick or feint would make the ninja trick pressure points the better option over time, because it adds up.

Or stand up to counter messed up trip attemps.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

It really depends on what you want out of your character, but these are the Rogue talents I like:

Core
Bleeding Attack - Bleeding damage forces spellcasters to make concentration checks every round until the bleeding stops (you always have to take concentration checks when taking damage). Probably not your strongest choice since you will only have 1d6 damage and thus only one point of bleeding damage, but it can be an interesting tactic.

Fast Stealth - If you are playing a stealthy character, this can be invaluable. If you're not, skip it.

Minor Magic - This really depends on build, but being able to boost a saving throw by +1 or cast detect magic or ghost sound or prestidigitation etc. etc. can have its uses.

Resiliency - This can save your life (although I like it best for half-orcs by combining it with orc ferocity).

Rogue Crawl - You can 5 ft step while prone, which can then help you stand up without provoking an AOO. Circumstantial but useful.

APG
Canny Observer - Good for Perception based builds (which I think Lore Warden can do?)

Fast Getaway - Nice for mobility if you need it. Way better than Positioning Attack which is very similar but too limited as to where you can move.

Honeyed Words - If you're using a feint build.

Offensive Defense - A good way to get more out of your minimal sneak attack dice--a +1 to AC is always useful.

Sniper's Eye - If you have a ranged build.

Don't know the UC ones as well, and given everyone's been talking about ninja tricks, I reckon their advice is more knowledgeable than mine on that account anyway.

Rogue talents as a rule tend to be circumstantial (unfortunately, sometimes too circumstantial) and depend a lot on individual builds so it's really a lot about what you want to do. But if the build focus is strong they can make that build that much more effective.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I have always looked at sneak attack as a weak mechanic.

I wish there was at least one archetype that would replace the ability.

I don't think it's a weak mechanic--I have seen well applied sneak attacks, which are not at all hard to set up do massive massive damage--but I'm with you on having an archetype that replaces it. Sometimes I'd like to play a sneak thief or acrobat type with no magical skills who isn't also a specialist in stabbity death.

Or an archetype that replaces rogue talents for that matter. I'd much rather give up either rogue talents or sneak attack than uncanny dodge in particular in many cases. What made them think that was a good idea I do not understand--or why they limited themselves to that and trapfinding as the only things archetypes could replace. With the rogues' versatility, I wish the archetype options reflected as much versatility in build options.


Minor Magic is terrific for a scout or thief type rogue. You can grab detect magic with it and then be able to see what's magical using a purely mental action. No way of alerting the guards or sleeping dragon by saying arcane mumbojumbo.


Vyndaeth wrote:
If you are going to keep going in levels of rogue and get sneak attack damage then I would look into Offensive Defense. For every dice you roll for sneak attack damage you and +1 to you AC as a deflection modifier. Stack that with Combat Expertise and you have a rogue that can tank.

This.

I play a vanilla no-archetype Rogue in the group of serious min/maxers, in a long-running combat-heavy campaign.

This talent is a big reason why I'm still alive while most of them are on their 3rd or 4th characters.


Rycaut wrote:

In my specific case I'm considering a two level dip into Rogue for my lore warden so a handful of the better rogue talents are less useful (trap spotter isn't as valuable if you have a negative perception due to low Wis.)

It seems like many rogue talents are once a day special actions (which all seem less than a full feat for me). Ki based feats or ninja tricks all seem best for a full rogue not a two level dip (or for a character who already had a ki pool ).

In PFS play guns are fairly restricted - so also less useful.

Any suggestions?

Combat Trick

Trap Spotter (You've already discounted this one)

Fast Stealth

Quick Disable

In that order (my opinion).

None of those three are dependent on the rogue level or number of sneak attack dice. There are other talents like that (Rogue Crawl, Slow Reactions, Stand Up), but they are pretty lackluster.

Shadow Lodge

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Lamontius wrote:
This talent is a big reason why I'm still alive while most of them are on their 3rd or 4th characters.

Are you sure it's that and not that they are bad at making survivable characters?


I honestly am very disappointed in the rogue talents. A lot of them are mediocre or boring. I wish that paizo would follow the path they took with the barbarian and apply that to the rogue. Rogue talents should be so freaking awesome that people will want to take them instead of a feat. The talents should help define your rogue and not just give you a couple gimics here and there.


Or just admit they suck and let you take the bonus feat multiple times.

I mean, if the talents are good and don't need fixing, people should want to take them instead of extra feats, and indeed spend feats on Extra Rogue Talent, just as Barbarian wants to w/ rage powers, witch with hexes, magus w/ arcana, etc...

And yet when I point out that rogue can RAW legally take Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) to get it a 2nd time (and Swashbuckler can for a 3rd time, so no this does not invalidate that archetype), people get all upset that it's cheesy or cheating... and then in the next breath dare to talk up how good rogue talents are...


DeathQuaker wrote:
Bleeding Attack - Bleeding damage forces spellcasters to make concentration checks every round until the bleeding stops (you always have to take concentration checks when taking damage). Probably not your strongest choice since you will only have 1d6 damage and thus only one point of bleeding damage, but it can be an interesting tactic.

I actually find this one to be pretty good - since the bleeding damage occurs immediately before a foe gets to act it is ALMOST as good as upping one's d6 sneak dice to d8s. Better, if the foe should survive to act in multiple succeeding rounds.

In contrast, the Ninja trick, Pressure Points, seems good at first - but it sadly has no effect until the enemy has taken sneak attack damage TWICE.

CRB, p.555 - Ability Score Damage wrote:
This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability. [paragraph break] For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a -1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Now, this IS still useful, but... the number of foes you will get multiple sneak attacks off on is relatively small at low levels, depending on party make-up.

ETA: Oops, didn't notice that the OP was considering a mere -two- level dip. Yeah, Bleeding Attack is maybe not the best choice there.


bleeding attack is among the more interesting of the "change how sneak attack works" rogue talents but yes for a 2 level (possibly 3 level) dip it seems likely suboptimal vs taking a useful feat I otherwise want (like weapon focus which I could take as a rogue talent other than combat trick) leaving that open should I take further rogue levels in the future.

But this thread has pretty much suggested to me that I probably won't take a rogue dip - or if I do I might first take a magus or a monk dip then take the rogue level(s) in the future for a burst of skill points and sneak attack damage - but I'm already quite the skill monkey via being a Lore Warden.

Though to address an earlier poster - Lore Wardens aren't very good at WIS based skills like Perception - their class is highly INT skill focused (bonus skill points are limited to INT skills, every INT skill is a class skill etc. Yes this includes Spellcraft as a class skill for a fighter....


TOZ wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
This talent is a big reason why I'm still alive while most of them are on their 3rd or 4th characters.
Are you sure it's that and not that they are bad at making survivable characters?

Two words:

Dwarven Wizard Archer Monk Charisma Seven
Okay, six words.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Two words.

Jelly doughnut.


Skulking Slayer/ Lore warden, gets d8s for sneak dice on a charge with a 2 handed weapon, Fast Getaway. Poor man's spring attack as long as you can charge to flank. or just move to flank, using the base d6s.


Except I've built this particular character as a DEX based finesse build - so not a 2-handed weapon wielder.


Rycaut wrote:
Except I've built this particular character as a DEX based finesse build - so not a 2-handed weapon wielder.

Ever heard of the elven curved blade? :)

Grand Lodge

Urban Barbarian. Boost that Dex for more damage with your Agile weapon.

Full BAB, Rage Power, Skill Points, Hit points.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Urban Barbarian. Boost that Dex for more damage with your Agile weapon.

Full BAB, Rage Power, Skill Points, Hit points.

Plus, you can use Power Attack even with finessable weapons.

Grand Lodge

You will need a 13 strength for Power Attack, so Piranha Strike is often a better choice.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:
You will need a 13 strength for Power Attack, so Piranha Strike is often a better choice.

Except it's not because you can only use it with light weapons not finessable weapons. PA is more versatile and most people will have a 13 at least in Str even with a finesse build because they want to do some damage while waiting for Dervish Dance/Agile weapon to kick in.

Grand Lodge

I never said it was always a better choice.

Anyways, what does the build look like?

If we know what you are working with, we may be able to give better advice.


minoritarian wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You will need a 13 strength for Power Attack, so Piranha Strike is often a better choice.
Except it's not because you can only use it with light weapons not finessable weapons. PA is more versatile and most people will have a 13 at least in Str even with a finesse build because they want to do some damage while waiting for Dervish Dance/Agile weapon to kick in.

Str is also important for carrying capacity. I'm playing an alchemist with 14 Str in our current Carrion Crown campaing and I'm stuck at medium load (20 ft. speed, +3 max Dex bonus to AC) while only equiped with a longsword, a buckler, a chainshirt and other essentials gear. Luckily my Str-boosting mutagen turn my medium load into a light load, but I just can't imagine playing a character with 10 Str or less, unless it's a naked wizard or sorcerer.

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