Alchemist + Arcane Strike feat

[IvanSanchez]

Double question:

a) Can an alchemist take the Arcane Strike feat? (assume a non-multiclassed alchemist). The prerequisite for this feat is the "ability to cast arcane spells", and I'm not sure if that wording applies to his ability to prepare extracts.

b) Assuming the answer to (a) is yes, or assuming a multiclassed sorcerer-alchemist: Does the damage bonus provided by this feat apply to the alchemist's bombs? (they are supposed to be ranged weapons, right?) Does the damage bonus apply to the bombs' splash damage? What about the splash damage of a honest-to-the-gods flask of alchemist's fire?

[blackbloodtroll]

A) No. An Alchemist is not a spellcaster.

[HaraldKlak]

A) No. He does not cast arcane spells.

B) As far as I can see, the answer is three times yes. Thrown splash weapons only specify that precision damage cannot be applied.
As it is a generel damage bonus, then the bomb splash damage should increase, given that it uses the minumum damage.

This might get problematic. Not so much with arcane strike, based on A), but feats such as deadly aim should work the same way.

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Arcane Strike (Combat)

You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

A) No. An alchemist is a spellcaster but he isn't an arcane spellcaster.

PRD wrote:

Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus.

B) Arcane strike "imbue your weapons" and "Bombs are considered weapons", so if you have levels as a arcane spellcaster you can use arcane strike on your bombs.

Reading the wording of the bombs description I would say that the Arcane strike damage should be applied to the bomb splash damage.

[IvanSanchez]

Thanks for the answers. Seems that the version of pcgen I'm using has a... particular... definition of spellcaster.

HaraldKlak wrote:

This might get problematic. Not so much with arcane strike, based on A), but feats such as deadly aim should work the same way.

Well, Deadly Aim doesn't work on splash damage, because its bonus to damage only applies to ranged weapon damage rolls (and splash damage is constant AFAIK).

[trollbill]

IvanSanchez wrote:

Thanks for the answers. Seems that the version of pcgen I'm using has a... particular... definition of spellcaster.

HaraldKlak wrote:

This might get problematic. Not so much with arcane strike, based on A), but feats such as deadly aim should work the same way.

Well, Deadly Aim doesn't work on splash damage, because its bonus to damage only applies to ranged weapon damage rolls (and splash damage is constant AFAIK).

More specifically, Deadly Aim doesn't work on touch attacks, which bombs are.

[blackbloodtroll]

The Alchemist is only treated as a spellcaster in certain instances.

[Illeist]

HaraldKlak wrote:

A) No. He does not cast arcane spells.

That's not actually the case. According to James Jacobs, Alchemists are considered Arcane and can be chosen for the Mystic Past Life racial feature, meaning that they are also spellcasters.

[Cheapy]

Illeist, there is disagreement amongst the Dev team and James on that one. It's best to see them as BBT said or at best "spellcasters". I'll get links up later, although I believe blackbloodtroll has or could post them.

It's a woefully gray area and BBT and I have been trying to get to the bottom of it for a while.

[blackbloodtroll]

I believe the Tumor familiar, and the Craft feats are where they sort of get the "spellcaster" status, but are otherwise are not.

The Carrion Crown AP supports the Craft feat status.

[Abyssian]

BBT, could you link (or just say, meaning book & page) where in Carrion Crown it supports that? I'm not saying that it doesn't; I'd just like to see it so I know. Thanks in advance.

[Cheapy]

Here is all the information I have been able to find one way or another. Unfortunately, it's still not clear even with that.

SKR saying this about an archetype that gives Craft Arms and Armor.

Quote:

Craft Arms and Armor: Sure, I can see this, though alchemists don't have a spell list, therefore this guy is going to be stuck making items that only have enhancement bonuses, or having to deal with that +5 crafting modifier.

James Jacobs, the original designer, said that they could with this:

Quote:

An alchemist CAN take item creation feats, in any event. When an item calls for a spell prerequisite, the alchemist simply substitutes his extract of the same name. This does mean that, other than potions, there's a lot of specific items an alchemist won't qualify for, so it might be a good idea to max out your Spellcraft skill for all the requirements you'll be missing...

Do note that things and intents can and do change once the original designer hands over the work to the dev team, and I recall James saying Jason really turned the class into what it is today.

The Serpent's Skull Player's Guide says that alchemist will be useful in the AP since they're versatile crafters. I guess that could mean mundane ones, so that's not really strong evidence one way or another.

In Carrion Crown, there's an alchemist that makes magic items.

Spoiler:

I believe it is the main guy of Trial of the Beast, who is an alchemist that creates golems. There's also an alchemist lich in part 6, Nalthezzar, who became a lich through "a variety of potent alchemical and magical mutagens, extracts, and elixirs"

SKR explicitly says that extracts are not "spells" and the context of that post is this one where SKR is responding to LazarX' post about why racial SLAs don't let you qualify for magic item creation feats, since you need to cast spells. The context links the two posts together somewhat strongly, and so the hexes / extracts portions also don't work for making magic items.

SKR again saying that the reason alchemists can make potions is specifically because of the exception their Brew Potion class feature gives them.

With all the evidence I've seen so far, I believe it leans towards alchemists not being able to take magic item creation feats. I really wish that wasn't the case however. I'm still not convinced one way or the other though, especially after the flurry of blows issue where freelancers writing things didn't know that it was TWF.

Hope that helps, although I'm sure it doesn't :)

[blackbloodtroll]

Abyssian wrote:

BBT, could you link (or just say, meaning book & page) where in Carrion Crown it supports that? I'm not saying that it doesn't; I'd just like to see it so I know. Thanks in advance.

See here:

WARNING: Carrion Crown Spoiler:

Part 6, page 32: Nalthezzar, the Alchemist Lich.

[Abyssian]

Thanks for the response, BBT. Cheapy, you went above and beyond.

There is a LOT of evidence supporting alchemists both as arcane "casters" and as specifically not.

IvanSanchez, it looks like you're stuck with the cop-out answer: ask your GM. He or she will probably not find any balance issue with it and, if you ask nicely and explain what you want to do (and buy pizza/beer), you may find yourself playing an alchemist with "magic" mundane weapons and Bombs with an extra magic kick.

Good luck and have fun.

[LazarX]

Illeist wrote:

HaraldKlak wrote:

A) No. He does not cast arcane spells.

That's not actually the case. According to James Jacobs, Alchemists are considered Arcane and can be chosen for the Mystic Past Life racial feature, meaning that they are also spellcasters.

As Mr. Jacobs has repeatedly stated, he's not to be considered the final rules authority and many of his statements are his preferences or house rulings. Outside of PFS,it's all how the DM rolls.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I FAQ'd this post. This question has come up multiple times in sesssions with players on both sides of the argument. Having an official answer would be less thing for the GM to have to arbitrate.

[Vrischika111]

I'd allow it, while RAW I see that you could not.
also you can dip one level of arcane caster, and enjoy from your Higher Alchemist caster level.

[Cheapy]

Abyssian, I'll admit that half the point of the post was to synthesize all the evidence in once place again after SKR's statements. Before, the top 2/3rds of that post were the reasons I was convinced they could craft, and I had a post or three with those reasons in it. It comes up so often though that it's just easier to link people to that than type it out :)

With regards to Arcane Strike, the rules are actually extremely clear on this. Even if the extracts count as spells (which SKR explicitly said they do not, in one of my links), alchemists are not arcane casters. Or divine casters, really. They're alchemists, set aside from the usual divine / arcane trappings.

Yes, I'm aware of James' post on the Samsaran's ability, but that's either in error or specific to just that ability. In fact, if you just take the ability as it's written, alchemists can't even use it. If the ability was like that, it'd be a bit like an ability saying "if you use an arcane spell-like ability...". That isn't really evidence of SLAs being Arcane or Divine, it's just a badly worded ability, since SLAs aren't arcane or divine :)

So no, alchemists cannot take Arcane Strike, and as an addendum, they cannot single-class their way into Arcane Trickster, even if they did somehow get an extract of mage hand.

[Zonto]

If it helps, in our group we went with the ruling that alchemists count as spellcasters, but they don't cast spells - extracts specifically say they aren't spells. They're neither divine nor are they arcane. They're ... alchemical?

[Duskblade]

This argument kinda takes me back to the issue we had regarding a character with a Prehensile Tail who wanted to use a 'tailblade'. By RAW, only Ratfolk could use a tailblade (which was a race that didn't even have the use of a Prehensile Tail, yet still they could somehow wield one).

I do wanna draw attention to the fact that an Alchemist specifically states that he imbues his 'extracts' with part of his magic (so this leads me to assume that the alchemist has some sort of magical talent).

It is almost important to note that intelligence typically is associated with 'arcane' casting ability, and that the majority of the spells presented in the alchemist formula list are also of 'arcane' origin as well.

When I also look at the 'brew potion' feat for the alchemist, I am again reminded that the alchemist CAN create a potion using similar methods to that of a wizard. Furthermore, if the alchemist is NOT 'casting' a spell...then what exactly is he doing?

My argument would be that if an Alchemist can imbue extracts with a bit of his power (mutagens included), then it would be understandable to allow this is well.

Again, this kinda falls back to my 'tailblade' plus 'Prehensile Tail' argument - does it make sense that an Alchemist COULD do this (I understand that this line of reasoning does not equal RAW...but RAI would seem to support this).

[blackbloodtroll]

Within RAW, only the Ratfolk can wield Tailblades, but there are ways for a Human or Aasimar to wield Kobold Tail Attachments.

I would take your build over to the Advice forum, as I would not want to derail this thread.

[zekenkurolyon]

i think that an alchemist could use arcane strike with the way its worded
Arcane Strike (Combat)
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
it says that the caster imbues some of their power into an attack, mechanically speaking an alchemist already does something similar as the advanced player's guide states that an alchemist puts a fraction of magical aura into his bombs, extracts, and mutagens. so theoretically they could do the same thing but with other weapons

[Claxon]

This has been resolved since this thread was open in 2012. Alchemist do not count as arcane spellcasters and do not qualify for arcane strike feat.

If they multiclassed into an arcane class, the damage would be based on their caster level from that arcane class. Progressing in alchemist would not enhance it.