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#4–05 Sanos Abduction Questions / Complaints [Spoilers]


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

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Shadow Lodge ****

Couple issues with Encounter C. THE UNDEAD CHARNEL HOUSE (CR 6 OR CR 9)

1) Ugh I hate being asked to apply a template myself.

2) High tier tactics for Marigana say "Use the tactics from Subtier 3–4." which have her casting Scare on the 3 most deadly PCs , Scare only targets characters below 6HD which is unlikely to be effective, although possible at subtier 6-7

3) Is the CR calculated right? 3x CR1 = 4 + a CR6 should be CR 7 right?
Although I guess once you have a CR 6 creature the CR1s aren't adding as much. (CR is calculated correctly at high tier)

4) There's a note that: "her spell-like abilities’ and poison’s save DCs are reduced by 2 as a result of the young simple template."

The poison is definitely correct, but do her SLAs really use CON and not CHA?

5) There seems to be significant differences in applying the quick vs rebuild rules including AC, CMB/CMD/Will Save/SLA+Poison DC* (Maybe, see question 4)/damage

Cheliax **

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

There's also an issue with B2: Old Friends.

Tactics for the Zombie Pegasus (now known as a Zombagus), are to land and full attack. It can't full attack due to the Staggered quality.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

As for 1) you'll probably want to get used to it. Now that they updated the Core Assumption for GMs, we'll be having to apply a lot more templates ourselves. There are many sites/programs that will do the math if you can find one you like/trust.

Shadow Lodge ****

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
As for 1) you'll probably want to get used to it. Now that they updated the Core Assumption for GMs, we'll be having to apply a lot more templates ourselves. There are many sites/programs that will do the math if you can find one you like/trust.

Link?

Shadow Lodge ****

6)Marigana's tactics block says she uses "control undead." Control undead is a 7th level spell, Pukwudgie's do get "command undead" though.

7)During Combat If controlled by Marigana, the zombies have orders to fight defensively and guard her. If not, they shamble toward the PCs to attack them.

"When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as "come here," "go there," "fight," "stand still," and so on."

Does command undead allow you to instruct them to fight defensively? It seems like the sort of tactical command that is too complicated for command undead.

Andoran *****

Pirate Rob wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
As for 1) you'll probably want to get used to it. Now that they updated the Core Assumption for GMs, we'll be having to apply a lot more templates ourselves. There are many sites/programs that will do the math if you can find one you like/trust.
Link?
PFS Organized Play Guide vs 4.2, page 5 wrote:
Additionally, a GM should have a physical copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary and access to all books in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line of hardcover rulebooks. The content of these books can be found online for free as part of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document located at paizo.com/prd.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

1) Yeah it's annoying. I'd probably run it through Hero Lab

2) Still use Scare, Most PCs swho play the mod should still be affectable. Them being immune at 7th level would actually be a good Oh shoot moment for her

3) Yeah, I'm getting slightly over a CR7 actually using the XP budget method.

4) I think this is jest development trying to make her a tad easier. I just wouldn't look behind the curtain on that one

5) If you have the time, use the rebuild, otherwise use the quick.

6) Agreed, should be command, but it works basically the same as Control

7) I'm not seeing that listed in the PRD. Where is it from? From what I'm reading, they'd be able to.

Shadow Lodge ****

Clint Blome wrote:

1) Yeah it's annoying. I'd probably run it through Hero Lab

2) Still use Scare, Most PCs swho play the mod should still be affectable. Them being immune at 7th level would actually be a good Oh shoot moment for her

7) I'm not seeing that listed in the PRD. Where is it from? From what I'm reading, they'd be able to.

2) It's not 6HD and below, it's below 6HD.

7) It's from the Command Undead text.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

2) ugh, probably skip it at high tier then

7) I'm not seeing it on the PRD, though mayabe I'm failing my Perception Check

Shadow Lodge ****

Are you looking at the command undead feat?

The spell is here.

"A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won't resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders."

Amusingly enough if anybody pretends to be the BBEG's friend and then threatens the undead breaks the BBEGs control over them.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I sure was. :P The creatures involved look to me like they will be steamrolled normally, so somply allowing them to fight defensively may make the fight more worthwhile. *shrug* It probably stems from the control undead error mentioned earlier

Shadow Lodge ****

Thanks for the comments. All this complaining aside it looks like a fun adventure to run.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

It does. And you're the first judge to get to tear them up at Nuke-Con.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Running this a few times this weekend, we'll see how it goes.

Prediction for utter success: a regular at one of my locations plays a Necromancer Wizard = she will feel like a badass

*

So are we supposed to allow the ZP to full attack or not? In general, are we supposed to do what the scenario says, or what the rules say?

If encounter B3 is scaled for 4 players, how does their morale work? Do they fight to the death, or just put up a show then run?

Is M supposed to be tiny or small? Those creatures are small by default, and the young template is supposed to reduce size by 1 step, but the tactics block says she's Small (capital S).

Her DPZ's are staggered, but they have a full attack statblock. Also, in melee it says:

Sanos Abduction statblock spoiler:
Melee 1d6 quills +6 (1d3+3), bite +6 (1d4+3), slam +6 (1d4+3)
and
Quills (Ex) When a dire porcupine zombie strikes with its tail or slam attacks, it dislodges 1d6 quills....

How does that work? Where is the tail attack? Is that 1d6 attacks, each at +6? Or is that one tail attack at +6, which on hit deals 1d6 instances of 1d3+3? Or is it a single quill attack at +6, which can only ever be used 1d6 times? I guess I should just use the slam, since they're staggered, but it's weird.

And if they make no attempt to hide, why would they wait for approach, wouldn't they spot the party immediately (and vice versa)? Is M holding them back until they reach the spot?

Lastly, how does a 5-foot cone work? Is it just one square?

Thanks!

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Canada—Quebec

Prepping this for my next game, my players will love it :)

Hero Lab was giving me differences in the stats of creatures with templates so I double checked.

So I did them for subtier 1-2 with the rebuild method. I get significant diferences so here they are if you want to use them:

-- I removed the stat blocks and will moved them to an external link.

The Dire Porcupine is from a Frog God game's Tome of Horors Complete, not the Giant Porcupine from Bestiary 3. I will probably use the Dire version, it is much nastier ;)

*

Michel Lepage wrote:
The Dire Porcupine is from a Frog God game's Tome of Horors Complete, not the Giant Porcupine from Bestiary 3. I will probably use the Dire version, it is much nastier ;)

Mine got one attack off (a miss) before being annihilated, so they can probably use all the help they can get.

I'm pretty sure a PC would have drowned if not for Riddywipple. Once that Kelpie starts running, there's not much they can do to catch it. (Despite throwing everything they had at it, including a fish!)

****

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Just ran it tonight & I have a few other things to add.

"Zombie" Owlbears don't have the DR 5/Slashing listed which they should being Zombies.

What happens to A PC under Lure if the Kelpie runs? in the text for Captivating Lure it reads *This effect continues as long as the kelpie is alive and the victim is within 1 mile of the Kelpie*
-I ruled that if the kelpie runs away it can dismiss the effect otherwise the PC is basically out of the game as the 40 swim speed makes it uncatchable underwater.

When applying the young template in the lower tier I followed through to making the BBE Tiny & it is not much of a nerf. With weapon finesse it makes it even more likely to hit the PC's with poison.

We need to clear up the staggered Zombies & full attacks in stat blocks as a grey decision by a GM on this could mean PC Deaths

***

Kolby Sample wrote:

We need to clear up the staggered Zombies & full attacks in stat blocks as a grey decision by a GM on this could mean PC Deaths

Already has.

EDIT:
Already has meant PC deaths.

Cheliax ***

I ran this at the weekend.

I concur that the zombagus' cannot take full attacks due to their staggered condition; I had them taking one slam attack per round, end of.

The porcupines also aren't capable of taking full attacks. I had them taking one slam attack per round, and dislodging quills. Two of the porcupines got off one attack (both of which hit, dislodging 4 and 5 quils respectively!) before being destroyed, while the third was ganked before it acted.

It's a simple fact that if the enemies are staggered, full attacks are not possible, regardless of what the stat block says. The only way to get zombies to have full attacks is to make them variant zombies that lose the staggered condition. Since the owlbear zombies earlier on are specifically fast zombies (which do not have the staggered condition) while the zombagus are not, I assume that this is a deliberate design decision, and full attacking zombagus' were not really intended.

Grand Lodge ****

Just played this last night, and going through it now, but aren't the zombies all "fast" variants? So they are not staggered, and gain an extra slam attack due to the quick strikes ability.

Bestiary p. 289:
Fast Zombie
Unlike the standard, plodding zombie, a fast zombie moves with a supernatural quickness.
Speed: Increase the base creature’s land speed by 10 feet.
Defensive Abilities: A fast zombie does not gain DR 5/
slashing.
Special Attacks: A fast zombie gains the following
special attack.
Quick Strikes (Ex): Whenever a fast zombie takes a full attack
action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus.

Abilities: As a standard zombie, except its Dexterity
is increased by 2 instead of reduced by 2.
Special Qualities: A fast zombie does not gain the
staggered special quality.

If you turn these into regular zombies, they become useless as opponents. As fast zombies, they were terrifying!

Grand Lodge ****

Kolby Sample wrote:

Just ran it tonight & I have a few other things to add.

"Zombie" Owlbears don't have the DR 5/Slashing listed which they should being Zombies.

Fast Zombies lose their DR. Check the template.

Cheliax ***

Scott Young wrote:

Just played this last night, and going through it now, but aren't the zombies all "fast" variants? So they are not staggered, and gain an extra slam attack due to the quick strikes ability.

Bestiary p. 289:
Fast Zombie
Unlike the standard, plodding zombie, a fast zombie moves with a supernatural quickness.
Speed: Increase the base creature’s land speed by 10 feet.
Defensive Abilities: A fast zombie does not gain DR 5/
slashing.
Special Attacks: A fast zombie gains the following
special attack.
Quick Strikes (Ex): Whenever a fast zombie takes a full attack
action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus.

Abilities: As a standard zombie, except its Dexterity
is increased by 2 instead of reduced by 2.
Special Qualities: A fast zombie does not gain the
staggered special quality.

If you turn these into regular zombies, they become useless as opponents. As fast zombies, they were terrifying!

The owlbears are noted as being fast zombies. None of the other zombies in the adventure are.

Taldor *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Ninjaiguana wrote:
Scott Young wrote:

Just played this last night, and going through it now, but aren't the zombies all "fast" variants? So they are not staggered, and gain an extra slam attack due to the quick strikes ability.

Bestiary p. 289:
Fast Zombie
Unlike the standard, plodding zombie, a fast zombie moves with a supernatural quickness.
Speed: Increase the base creature’s land speed by 10 feet.
Defensive Abilities: A fast zombie does not gain DR 5/
slashing.
Special Attacks: A fast zombie gains the following
special attack.
Quick Strikes (Ex): Whenever a fast zombie takes a full attack
action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus.

Abilities: As a standard zombie, except its Dexterity
is increased by 2 instead of reduced by 2.
Special Qualities: A fast zombie does not gain the
staggered special quality.

If you turn these into regular zombies, they become useless as opponents. As fast zombies, they were terrifying!

The owlbears are noted as being fast zombies. None of the other zombies in the adventure are.

Sadly, this. The stat blocks for other zombies even list the SQ:staggered as normal zombies.

Shadow Lodge ****

I ran the pegasi as staggered, it would be interesting to know what the author intended. I thinkthe author is the Paizo intern, meaning they are probably keeping him busy.

Cheliax ***

Our GM ran the monsters as if they were fast zombies it wasnt overwhelmingly challenging, at the lower tier I would say them having full attacks might be scary but at the higher tier its a pretty fair fight with them being fast zombies.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

had a GM i organized for complain that the young template didn't take down the BBEG enought

Spoiler:
3d6 sneak attack at the low tier, even on the young version, which maintained an AC 20, he said he nearly wiped them on poison and flanks with zombies alone...

I have it prepped but haven't run it yet. I expect it to be a fun but tough and survivable encounter. though I might kill someone ::shrug::

Taldor *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:

had a GM i organized for complain that the young template didn't take down the BBEG enought

** spoiler omitted **

I have it prepped but haven't run it yet. I expect it to be a fun but tough and survivable encounter. though I might kill someone ::shrug::

She is an extremely vicious critter for lower levels.

Spoiler:
With the rebuild upping her DEX, and she's a finesse based creature, she has a better chance to hit with the DC16 poison twice a round. Use that standard action double quill throw to peg them at range and you can do some serious damage to even a group of 6.

She'll have a +16 to hit at tier 3-4, which should hit even the best tank at that level about 75% of the time. Any caster close to her, she'll miss on a 1 basically. The CON damage poison that requires 2 saves to cure, and has a chance to inflict multiple doses on the same round increases the lethality as the DC goes back up by 2 for each additional dose in the system.

Be wary with her if you don't want to wipe the group from the get go. Also, the "diversion" option written into the encounter really doesn't work, as she has constant deathwatch active and can tell the illusions are not living creatures at a glance.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Spoiler:
she has constant deathwatch active and can tell the illusions are not living creatures at a glance.

What an excellent use of that spell!

*

Seraphimpunk wrote:
had a GM i organized for complain that the young template didn't take down the BBEG enought

That won't be an issue if you apply the template. Dropping her size to tiny means she has to enter a PCs square to melee attack, and she can't flank, so between the AoO every round (assuming the PC takes a 5' step) and not getting any sneak attacks, she's not much of a threat in melee.

Taldor *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Steg wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
had a GM i organized for complain that the young template didn't take down the BBEG enought

That won't be an issue if you apply the template. Dropping her size to tiny means she has to enter a PCs square to melee attack, and she can't flank, so between the AoO every round (assuming the PC takes a 5' step) and not getting any sneak attacks, she's not much of a threat in melee.

Why would she enter melee?

Spoiler:
She can shoot two poisoned quills at range as a standard action with a +17 modifier if you make her tiny and stay mobile. True the hit point damage isn't much, but it racks up CON damage like nobody's business. That much ability damage can wreak havoc on a lower tier group fast.

Also note, the neutralize poison potions aren't guaranteed to work. They're caster level 5, so it's a d20+5 CL check vs. minimum DC 16 poison.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Aside on the Pegabies (Zombsi?)

Spoiler:
This is where I used the 'anger the Druids' spell (stone call) While I goofed and forgot the DR would apply, turning the terrain in front of us into rough terrain saved Rey's bacon.

Zombie comes up to attack, rough terrain prevented the charge. So no attack. 5' step back and throw another spell. Zombie moves 5' (rough terrain) can't attack. 5' step back and another spell. now it's finally clear of the rough terrain, but we killed it before it could hit me. :-)

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Matthew Morris wrote:

Aside on the Pegabies (Zombsi?)

** spoiler omitted **

A solid plant growth + entangle combo hosed em pretty good for our table.

DC 21 entangle? Nice ;)

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Walter Sheppard wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Aside on the Pegabies (Zombsi?)

** spoiler omitted **

A solid plant growth + entangle combo hosed em pretty good for our table.

DC 21 entangle? Nice ;)

Yes, but can you blast almost half the mapsheet with 2d6 bludgeoning and kill the <redacted> by accident with it? I busted out laughing when I was informed of that. :-)

Spoiler:
Pugwampies

Taldor *

There is a problem with the red caps they have a 19-20 crit range on there scythes but nothing in the stat block gives them improved crit./keen.

Cheliax ***

Note that Riddy is caster level 3rd and all the called out tactic spells are one-round-per-level spells. That's 3 rounds before they wear off and you have to cast them again. Also note that one of the tactic spells requires concentration so you need to cast that last as you can't cast another spell while concentrating. At best it is going to be a 2 round combo.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Captain, Kansas—Kansas City aka coastalsoul5

The question I had about the scenerio is the access. Assuming since all of the responses on here are from people that have read/ prepped the scenario or have clearly played it I will not hide with the spoiler tag. The Faerie Dragon Improved Familiar access is oddly worded. Can someone use the access on the chronicle sheet to gain a familiar if they cannot normally summon one. In otherwords if they were a wizard that took the bonded item OR say a bard who has arcane caster levels? The player in question is a wizard who has a bonded item and then used the access plus improved familar to get Riddywipple. I asked how he took improved familiar feat since I thought one of the prereqs was that you had to be able to summon it. He resopnded with if that was true then the access on the chronicle sheet is nothing special. I thought it was just cool flavor that you can get Riddywipple. This is the Improved Familiar Feat from the PRD off the Paizo Site for reference... what do you guys think?

Improved Familiar
This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).

Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

Taldor ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia aka Iammars

Additional Resources for Bestiary 3 wrote:
Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 112-113;

The Faerie Dragon is not on pages 112-113. Therefore normally it is not allowed as a familiar. This boon allows you to take it as a familiar.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Captain, Kansas—Kansas City aka coastalsoul5

sooooo.... no comment on the access?

Cheliax ***

It is a normally blocked familiar as it does not appear on the additional resources list as allowed, the boon on the chronicle sheet gives a PC with the familiar class feature and the improved familiar feat and the required caster level access to the Faerie dragon as a familiar.

You must meet all the normal requirements for the familiar, it just expands your choices to a creature thats not normally available

****

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

The range on deathwatch is 30 feet so if you create the illusion of something at range (.....first thing I grabbed out of the mini box was a lich, player reaction was hilarious "O my God it's a Lich!!!! We gota run guys") it still follows tactics and takes deathwatch out as a factor. Plus you can roll the will save to disbelieving behind the GM screen and maybe buy your players a moment if they need it that bad.

Another option once this is done for Rip is to use grease to reduce the movement & possibly trip the BBE (this tactic saved the first group I ran).

As far as the familiar goes, no this boon does not allow a fighter to get a fairy dragon. To access this boon you need to have the familiar class feature and the boon just added a new option not normally available.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Captain, Kansas—Kansas City aka coastalsoul5

Thanks!

***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I was actually looking at that earlier (I think I am the guy who said the benefit didn't make sense otherwise). So, that makes sense in regards to allowing a fairy dragon when you would not otherwise get it.

Mistake on my part, whoops.

Qadira ****

Justin Crozier wrote:

I was actually looking at that earlier (I think I am the guy who said the benefit didn't make sense otherwise). So, that makes sense in regards to allowing a fairy dragon when you would not otherwise get it.

Mistake on my part, whoops.

Hay! thanks for stepping forward and speaking up.... and we've all been there before. Everyone makes mistakes. (I learned that from a 5 year old once... and it sticks with me. Wisdom from a pre-school kid.)

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

coastalsoul5 wrote:
sooooo.... no comment on the access?

Having been wanting to run this so I can put the GM credit on a character that can use it, I've been pondering it a lot.

Basically it *adds* the <redacted> to your potential familiar list. You still need to qualify for it normally (Improved Familiar for casters with a critter, 3 feats (Skill Focus (knowlege), Eldrich Heritage (arcana) and Improved Familiar and level 7 (level nine for the EH route, unless you burn a 4th feat))

The two factors I look at with it are a) it can use wands (I am unclear on if Mephits and Pseudodragons can) and, for non-casters who burn the feats, it casts as a sorcerer, so it can use most arcane wands without UMD checks. I just picture this 9th level fighter with a <redacted> carrying a scaled down golf bag of wands.

"Oh dear, it appears they are some 300' away. Shall I use the wand of fireball to invite them over?"
"Yes my friend by all means, and please have that wand of haste ready for when they close."
"Certainly sir, I'll be turning invisible now. No sense letting them know they're outnumbered."
"Quite."
(the above is best read in a posh English accent.)

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So for the first time this past weekend, I ran the lower tier for a table of 4 players so I had to use the scale-down tables:

Spoiler:
In the fight with the gremlins and a zombie pegasus, to scale the encounter the zombie pegasus "died of exhaustion before the PC's arrive" and you increase the number of gremlins by 1

Beyond the above "how did this happen" moment, I noticed that in the tactics
Spoiler:
the gremlins run away as soon as the pegasus dies... so by logic the entire encounter is removed by scaling down, but that didn't seem right. So I had them pop out of the trees to do their SLA and then run away

Anyone else notice this problem?

****

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:


Basically it *adds* the <redacted> to your potential familiar list. You still need to qualify for it normally (Improved Familiar for casters with a critter, 3 feats (Skill Focus (knowlege), Eldrich Heritage (arcana) and Improved Familiar and level 7 (level nine for the EH route, unless you burn a 4th feat))

Matthew,

Where does it say you need to other feat? As far as I knew the only prerequisites were: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level & the improved familiar feet

I have never seen anything about skill focus & Eldrich Heritage. Are those specific to sorcerers?

Osirion ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Sydney aka Luke_Parry

Taking Skill Focus (Any Knowledge skill) allows you to take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline), which allows a non-Sorceror to have the first level bloodline ability of the Arcane bloodline, which is the ability to have a familiar.

Basically, it is a way for a PC who would not normally have a familiar, to have a familiar.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Thank you Luke, I wasn't clear.

I have two concepts (One rebuild, one GM credit) that could use the <redacted> but aren't wizards/sorcerers.

*

Still no clarification to whether the Zombagus, and others, should be fast variants, or not? If they're not, should I invent a new tactic for them? Which I'm totally going to do, if they're staggered, and the author doesn't provide a new tactic to use.

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